036: Strengthen Your Listening Skills

Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business Podcast. I'm your host and Gazelle's business coach, Bill Gallagher. We've got a very another very special show today. We're going to talk about listening skills and the surprising impact on business performance with listening skills. But we're going to do it in a particularly personal way and we're going to be working today with. With a key person from a company that we worked with for a number of years now through quite a bit of growth. On the show with me today is Crystal Hulsey from Bali Construction. Crystal, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Now, Crystal heads up marketing and assists the founder and owner of the company who we've worked with for a number of years. And she hit me today with a little bit more of a personal conversation about the listening skills that we talked about in our last session together with their company. So I thought wouldn't it be perfect if she was willing to talk about this to do the listening skills work together? So thanks for being on the show today, Crystal.

You're welcome. I know it's going to help me improve, so I wanted to be willing.

I got it. So, okay, so let's just talk a little bit first about the general area. I think everybody knows that listening skills are a good idea, right? Right. I mean, you know that you should be a better. We all know we should be better listeners. Right. What's your thought, story or notion for yourself about listening? Listening skills?

My personal listening skills, I think struggle because I'm a visual person and that's how I remember things is seeing in front of me written down and so things like conversations in person or over the phone, I tend to. It might be a memory thing, too, but it's hard for me to take in all the information to remember later and remembering details and mostly from conversations, that's where I struggle. So I think I get distracted since I'm also a creative person.

Yes.

And it might be like an attention thing, too, but that's kind of where I think why I struggle.

So do you worry about verbal communications?

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

You get anxiety about it when there's something that matters, right? Yeah, totally get that. So I think a lot of folks can relate and there'll be people listening in who are visual, creative kinds of people. And then there will be other people who love the written word but struggle with verbal communication. So there's a range of that. There will also be people who feel like they listen really well but are at a loss for words. Right. I know lots of people like that. So first of all, the tie to performance. So as we know from. We know from quite a few works that there's a direct tie between language and performance through leadership. So language, now visual, you know, graphical, visual kinds of things, is easily a form of language. There's also physical forms of language, like I can move in particular ways and it communicates things. So I can communicate things visually. I can communicate things through movement. There are probably quite a few different forms. There's also written communication. Yeah. And they're all different kinds of language. In business, one of the things that we deal with a great deal is verbal language, spoken words and listening. And that's where we get into a lot of trouble. Now. We could probably spend a whole lot of time talking about the dangers of short form written communications. And I'm talking specifically about text messages and tweets and things like that in today's world. That's maybe a subject for another time. We're talking today principally with language in the world of verbal communications that impacts so much of us. And when I talk about the tie to performance, I'm pointing to and thinking of language as action that we know from some of the work of Fernando Flores and Terry Winograd back with Apple many, many years ago. And then more recently, there's a book called the Three Laws of Performance that says that the actions that people take in the world are directly matched to the way the world seems to them, the way the world occurs to them. But the way the world seems to folks can be altered in language. So the language that leaders use to shape our view of the future in particular is. And the kinds of promises and requests and things like that that we do with each other all impact our view of the present circumstance and have power to alter the way things seem for us. And then there's natural actions that flow out of that. Are you with me so far? So I'm talking a lot about, or I seem to be talking a lot about speaking. And one of my strengths right from the world of Gallup StrengthsFinder. One of my themes, my top five is Communicator. But communication communicator in that world is about putting thoughts into words. And that's where a lot of us think about what to say. And yet you need far less attention on what to say if you're really listening for what's going on with the other person. If I as a leader, as a manager, know what you really care about, or in any area of life, if I know what's going on with you, then what I say will likely be a far more natural, powerful fit for that. So I don't have to worry too much about what to say when I'm really clear about what your world looks like from your perspective. You with me? Okay, so in this case, we're going to actually do something. Talking about your fiance. Right.

Right.

And do you. Do you feel like you have any idea what's going on with him in this communication problem?

I think it just stems from my forgetting things that we talk about.

You think? Could be.

It's not. It's not necessarily like what the topics are like. It's not that personal. It's just that we live together, we're getting married. So, you know, we talk every morning, night before work, after work, hang out at home. And so it's pretty crucial that I listen better. And, you know, because we're. We don't have that many hours during the work day. So I just want to be able to have quality conversations.

So. So where do you feel like you're not listening? Tell me more a little bit about this. Where does it break down? Where do you feel like you're. You're not listening?

I definitely pay attention. I just think. I don't know if it's just that the details of the conversation, like dates and people and where locations of what we're talking about. I don't know. I think that's the breakdown. So, like, a really quick example would be he mentions earlier in the week that so and so is coming over or we're going to dinner with so and so later on in the week on like a Monday. And then the weekend comes and I had no clue, but I was right there with the conversation. So that's like a really simple example of. I don't know if it's that I'm thinking of other things when the conversation is going on.

So he says stuff, you're there, somehow you don't register it and you can't remember it later.

Right, Right.

Okay. Is there another time related? That's fine. That's good. So we're going to work with. We're going to do an exercise with people that they'll be able to reproduce. Is there another time you're in a disagreement about something and it's escalating, but he just keeps talking about the same thing. Okay, tell me a little bit about that.

I think I focus more on the big picture and how to fix something. And he might dwell on the detail of the argument and. And then, yeah, it does seem like on and on. So then it's sort of like a tune out moment.

So then you start to tune out.

Or, you know, disengage, like I would walk away or something.

Yeah. Now just a reminder to everyone, we're talking about something pretty personal and yet you can see this in business all the time. There are things people talk to us about and then they seem to be talking at one level, we're talking at another, and then we're talking at each other, and then somebody tunes out and somebody goes away. Now, do you guys have a recurring argument about anything?

No.

No, not yet, right?

No, not yet.

Well, you're not married yet. Give it time. No. All right, then let's switch a little. Let me just probe with you for a minute, if you'll indulge me. Is there kind of a recurring argument in the office anywhere? Somebody with whom that you. There's an area or a topic that you just kind of keep coming up around that's, that never gets resolved or that you're dealing with currently?

I can't think of anything specific like that with a work related listening, but yeah, I guess nothing really comes to mind.

Okay, so. And do you have an unresolved disagreement with your fiance over something that's unresolved right now that you're dealing with that he wishes you were different about, or you wish he was different, or he.

Wishes I could be on time more.

Okay, good. So he wishes you could be on time more. And I can hear that related to what we're talking about. All right, so first, let me underscore kind of three levels of listening that I've noticed with people, and I've certainly heard this in a variety of things. So the first level is the content. What are you actually saying? Right, so he says stuff to you and you don't get all of the content. Yeah. Okay. And. And why do you think that might be?

One thing I thought of was if it's not a conversation back and forth, if, if I'm not engaged in it and one person is just telling me information and it's like I don't need an answer type of thing. Like a. This happens a lot actually, where I just go, okay or okay, like I don't have any other response. And okay, because it's not a question or like a actual. We're not going back and forth, like talking about that we're going to dinner with so and so, you know, maybe I might ask where, but then that would be all. So I think if I don't ask anything Then it makes it harder for me to remember.

Great. So, I mean, obviously not great.

Yeah.

Frustrating but clear. So one of the things that you and I do, we all do as human beings, I think, unless you're intensely trained and like that. But even with the modest amount of training, one of the things that we do is we're listening for the response. So we're listening for what we need to say or do instead of really listening to the other person. And consequently, we miss the first piece, what they're actually saying. Why? Because there's thoughts and distractions and ideas and things going on in your own head. There's like, what do I need to say and what do I need to do? And we're not actually getting what's being said, just the content. Right. So the first level is that the second one is the emotional state of the other person. Now, I don't know if it's true or not. It certainly is a stereotype that men and women feel like the women pay more attention to the emotional state of the other party than men do. I don't know if that's really valid. It certainly feels like it or not. But just paying attention to, like, is this person angry? I will hear many people say, well, they said this or that, and who knows if that's accurate or not? But I'm like, well, how were they? Right? When we say, how were they? We're thinking about, well, kind of what was their emotional state? Were they excited, agitated, bored, interested, anxious? Like, you know, what was the state going on? The third level, though, when there's a disagreement or an upset, there's something that's stuck. So thinking in your relationship, in your business, in your work group, in the larger business, they are places where things get stuck. And then people start talking at each other, often louder. Right. Sometimes we call that yelling or arguing. It gets the emotions go up that we start talking even more at each other, like people speaking a foreign language. But they raise their voice and they raise the volume because they think somehow being louder is going to help. So there. One of the things that we're missing is the underlying value of the other person. I know in our work, we talk a lot about values. So there's business values that we all have, corporate values that we embody and we bring to life and are core to our strategy and the people we hire. But then we all have personal values, things that we really. That are important to us. And when there's an upset or a breakdown in communication like that, there's some value that's threatened, that's challenged, a personal value. So it'd be really powerful if you and I, as human beings were to practice listening for all three levels. First of all, what's actually being said. The second thing is, what's the state of this other person? And then what is the unspoken value that they're struggling with that's threatened over in their world that you know, that is that they can't even say. Right. And when you start listening that deeply, you are able to hear what people aren't saying, but is in fact there behind everything else. So we'll practice this with you, but I'll just share a quick personal story along this to illustrate what I'm talking about. My wife and I, I've been married for 22 years now, and for many years, my wife and I used to argue about the tv, specifically the TV in the bedroom at bedtime. So on your average night, my wife Laurie, used to love to watch the TV and fall asleep. Right? That was kind of her thing. We all have different habits, but it drove me crazy. It's too bright, it's distracting. It's not peaceful. Like, I would have that, and then it would wake me up, and then I'd get less sleep. But. So we argued about this forever and ever and ever for years. And every time it would come up, there's like this sort of triggered kind of a recurring conversation. We'd get agitated about it. It would devolve into, like, nothing. It all was hopeless, right? And it just was like, you've heard people joke about arguing over the toothpaste or whatever and silly things, but. And yet, as couples, and interestingly enough, business partners, close associates will find similar kinds of areas where there's friction, right? So these three things that we're talking about in listening skills can make a massive difference there. So here's what's happening. I was out at lunch with her one day, and this is actually pretty old now. This is more than 10 years old. So we've been married for 22 years. It was going on for 7 to 10 sometime in there. We're out at lunch, and we've worked together for a number of years in the same office and nearby and even the same company sometimes. So we're out at lunch, and somehow we get on the subject again of the TV in the bedroom, and suddenly an argument starts. Except I've been working on my listening skills. And so I listen to her and I notice instead of where I'm going and my position and all of that other stuff, in the moment that it comes up, I recognize it as a recurring argument. And I set aside all of that stuff and I listen for what is she saying? What's the state for her? And what is the value or the concern that she's got in the background that she isn't even saying and maybe I've never heard. And like in a flash of that moment, within the next couple of words, I get it, like, all for her. So she's upset. She's saying something about the tv. It's too old for me to remember the exact details, the content, but she's upset. And I suddenly realized for her, living with me is about never getting your way. And the freedom, the value that's threatened is personal freedom. So she values freedom and to be with me and to imagine her life with me is to never get your way. And I was deeply, deeply saddened and moved when I saw that. And so she's talking and suddenly I'm crying. Folks who know me well know I cry pretty easily. But I suddenly saw this woman that I love, that I've been married with for, I don't know, 10 years at that point, and she is fighting to ever get her way. And so now I'm deeply emotional. And she looks over and she's like, whoa, what just happened? And I said, I just realized that for you to be with me is to imagine a life or to worry about never getting your way for the rest of your life to always having to fight for what you want. And it was a deeply emotional moment. And she was suddenly overcome by emotion because she got that that's what was true for her.

Wow.

So here's the wrap up in the next moment. Like, I don't know, we work out some stuff with each other. And TV has never really been an argument since that time. You know, that's more than 10 years have passed and it was this like recurring stupid thing. And we just worked it out. Like, you know, some nights she'd watch and then we. But we could never work it out before because I didn't have any idea what was going on for her. I was just fighting for my thing and she was fighting for her thing. But like you said at the beginning, you are listening for what to respond to and what to deal with. When we're listening for what to say and how to respond instead of what's really going on with the other person, then that's what we get. We get into corners like that. So first level, again, content. The second level is the emotional state of the Other person. And then where there's some friction, some tension, some disagreement, repetitive things wherever you sense that it's off. There's a threatened value and there's a personal value the person have that is challenge threatened, you know, like that. So that's really it. So let's be. What's your fiance's name?

Dominic.

Dominic. Okay, great. I'm going to be Dominic for a minute. So tell me a little bit about Dominic and the conversation.

Dominic is 29, and we pick for four and a half years. Yeah, let's see.

What's his style? Tell me a little bit about his style because I'm going to be him.

Okay. He. He's in sales, so he's used to talking a lot and explaining. And I work essentially with one person, Kevin, you know, so I'm not talking all day like him. So I think that his style is, I guess, like enthusiastic speaker. He's kind of a mellow guy, though. So we're both pretty casual people, but he's enthusiastic. Yeah.

And he's in sales. Okay, and then how does he get. When you're disagreeing?

He doesn't get frustrated right away, but if it is recurring, then he does get frustrated faster.

Mm.

So like the being on time thing, that would be like something that could easily escalate.

Yeah. Okay, so I. I'm going to be Dominic in this conversation, and you're going to be Crystal. You just be yourself. Right. Okay. But now instead of being Crystal like you've always been up till now, you're going to practice listening for three things. Right. What are you going to do? What are you practicing listening for?

Like, the state of the person is there emotion, and before that, the topic. Exactly what they're saying.

Right. So you write it down if you want the content. The content? Right. The message. What are the words that I'm saying? The second one you got is the emotional state. Right. The third one is my value. What I value. That's threatened.

Okay.

Hey, Crystal, you be ready to go in 10 minutes.

I think I might need a few more, but I could try.

Crystal, what the hell?

We're gonna be pretty much on time. No one's even gonna be there yet.

I told you we had to be early. It's a surprise party for Bob and Julie.

Shoot. I don't know. I would say no surprise party.

God, we talk about this all the time. Every time I tell you stuff and, like, you don't pay any attention to me. You don't even care what I say anymore. Like, how are we Ever gonna do this?

It's not that big of a deal. Dominic, we will be out the door in maybe 10 to 15 minutes. What's five more minutes? No one even gonna.

You're not even. You're. This is just like every time. You're not listening to me.

Okay, I'm getting dressed right now.

Okay, good. So what am I saying?

You're saying that you were frustrated that I'm not on time.

Okay. And what's my emotional state?

Upset. Frustrated.

Right.

Maybe even like, embarrassed or. That's not the word I'm looking for. Like ashamed that you're late.

Yeah. And what is my. What. What are my values that are threatened?

Being known as being on time. Your image?

Nope.

Your. No. Maybe I'm thinking about him. Too personal.

So you got to stay right here. I'm being Dominic. My version of Dominic. Right. You stay right here with me. So think about me for a second. What do you think is really on my mind? What's my value? That's threatened.

Oh, you were saying that I don't care about you.

Okay, good. And what would be the value?

Love? I'm not sure. Respect?

Try relationship. I'm concerned about my relationship to you and my relationship to Bob and Julie. So the being late is a concern, but the source of that in this case. Right. I was just making it up. I was being something. Right?

Yeah.

So in this case, my concern was we're not in sync and I'm letting down others. But the underlying thing for everything and everyone is that is. Is that relationship or relationships in general. Right. I value relationships. So what insights are you having so far in this conversation?

That it's on a more personal level than I think before with these. This certain argument about being on time.

What do you see now about your communication and your listening? With Dominic out of the inquiry and the. And the role play? What's the opportunity for you here?

Just, I guess communicating to him by my struggling with being on time isn't like, I'm not trying to directly influence and show him that. That's like, how. What I think of our relationship, like, to me, it's not connected like that in my mind. But it is to him.

Is it? What do you think's going on with him all the time in your relationship?

I struggle with his. He has slight anxiety, and so I definitely need to be more sensitive around that with the time issue. Yeah, I know that's true.

Yeah. So is time a sensitive issue with him? Okay, so consider this as you go into your next conversation with him. His Concern for time. You don't actually know and understand.

Yeah, like I think it's more of an innate thing for him and it's totally not like that for me.

Yeah, but you don't know where it comes from. You don't know what really he cares about, that you don't know if it's that he wants people to think well of him. We all want that to a certain degree. You don't know if he values the relationship or his personal impeccability or you don't know what aspect of it is charged for him around being on time.

I do, but kind of more of an offline thing.

Okay, good. So I think that this is awfully bold and generous of you to go here, but consider this, that if you haven't had a shift in this yet, then the communication is not really connected. Intimate, powerful communication. Right. And we're used to talking about intimate and powerful in our personal things. We don't see often that it, it also shows up in business. But if I'm just right there with you. Look, I'm just here with you. I'm here to contribute. I'm here to listen for. I'm here to be related. Something different can show up. And if I'm listening for what's this person actually saying? What's it like for them? What's going on for them right now? What are they really worried about? That they haven't spoken yet. That maybe they don't even have room to say. That's a powerful way to listen. What I said that you maybe don't get it fully was that if you take the case that there's something that you're missing, then there's an opportunity to listen more deeply. And if all of us in every area where there's disagreement, frustration, argument, recurring kinds of things, would take the case that we're missing something, then we'd listen newly, freshly. And if you listen for these three things, it's more powerful. So what do you see is the action for you to take next? What are you going to do with this that we've been talking about in this call?

Definitely pay attention to the emotion state during conversation.

Okay. Okay.

That's like big because that shows you how to listen or the type of response that is needed.

Sure. Now, have you ever had the experience where Dominic or anyone else was just going on and on about the same thing? Okay, good. And so I'm going to just submit and have you consider that every time that happens and it's because people, we repeat ourselves because we feel like the other person doesn't get it yet. So when you get it, the communication people often stop, either right away or very soon. So I do this all the time still today with my wife, and I do it with other people. They keep talking about something. I'm like, yeah, I heard you. Because I got something maybe at a content level, and I might be right a little bit about that. That. But I leapt to some assumption. They didn't get that I got their emotional state or their underlying value or anything else. And they're still repeating it. But if you really, really listen deeply, the repetition and the charge goes out like, okay, oh, you finally got it. Because what's being communicated is not just the words on the surface, but there's also being communicated the emotional state and some underlying commitments, values, kinds of stuff. They are committed to a certain set of values. That's what they value. Got it.

Yeah.

So what's the next thing for you to do this and when are you going to do something with it?

Well, tonight I will see him when I get home from work, and he usually goes over his day.

Yeah.

And I'm definitely going to be paying more attention to how he is saying what he is saying because I can sometimes, I guess, to be honest, tune out.

Yes.

He has the similar stories of, you know, he's had the same job since I've known him, so I've heard. I feel like the same rundown a lot.

Yes.

But it's like venting, you know, so the other person doesn't show any, I don't know, like, empathy or excitement. Then it's kind of crappy talking to them.

Yep. Awesome.

I need to definitely do that.

Okay, great. So listen for that state and then also listen for a newer, deeper appreciation of him, something that is true about him. Something in his values that you haven't fully seen all of yet. So consider that you're just at the very beginning of your relationship, really, and there's a whole lifetime of appreciation ahead. And it's rich and rewarding.

Definitely.

And then can you see any opportunities for this anywhere with your team at work?

Not right away, but I know as soon as I go back to my desk and think about our call that I will think of something that's great.

I'm sure of it, because I know your team after working with you guys for over three years now. So there are recurring kinds of. There are people who say the same thing all the time, and they're heated conversations. And if you'll listen from that in new ways, you can begin to bring this new quality of listening, even as a visual, creative person who's not so verbal.

Okay, awesome.

Well, thanks again for getting on the show with us. Reminder to everybody today that listening will lead to more powerful communication. And in communication, the words that we choose and the way that we connect and communicate things can cause new actions and new levels of performance within the teams. So this is really a valuable conversation, and I really appreciate you having such an intimate, connected talk about something that's very personal. And the reminder that the way that we listen deeper is first listening for what's being said and that one of the ways that we get that what's being said is by listening also for the emotional state of the other person and then for the unexpressed underlying values behind the communication.

On the surface, this is very valuable. I'm really glad that I reached out to you.

All right, thanks so much for doing the recording with us. As always, this podcast will be on itunes, so subscribe to our itunes for regular weekly posts from the leading authors and experts in scaling up and growing your business, as well as periodic live coaching sessions with our people at our client companies. So I really appreciate it. So we're on iTunes, we're on YouTube. You can follow us on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn. We've got a free growth guide on our website that you can download with all that you need to begin scaling up. Work on your own, in your own company, and we'll see you next time.

Sa.