121: Kevin Pasco on 10Xing His Company

So what's it like to 10x your company? What happens when you go through that phase? How does your mindset shift and what's it like to go from startup to the fledgling stages through 10 million and then on to 30 million in a few years? That's today's show. It's an experience share. It's a lesson from the front line of one of the companies that applied all of our rules and has scaled really rapidly. You using the tools and the ideas from the world of scaling up. So listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling up business podcast. I'm your host for the show and a growth coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today is an experience share a case study, if you will, about 10x growth and some of the lessons learned along the way. It's still a small company but this guy's really great and I'm glad to have him on the show. Kevin Pascoe is a co founder of Nested Naturals. It's an E commerce brand that he's grown with his partner over the last years. So they're going through 10 million now in a very short period of time and he's managed to move this sort of marketing sideline, very side hustle kind of a business through something that's now growing and continuing to grow, looking like they'll triple again in just a couple of years more. So how do we get to that and sustain that over a number of years? Right. Year over year growth and what kind of changes do you go through? I thought I'd let him share a little bit about that. So welcome to the show, Kevin.

Thanks for having me, Bill. I appreciate it. We're huge fans, scaling up and what you do. So happy to hang out with you for a bit.

Awesome. So, and I'm glad to have you on the show. I know you're in Vancouver today.

We're in beautiful Vancouver. It's not raining today. Fingers crossed.

Fingers crossed. Vancouver is an awesome city. It's gotten frighteningly expensive lately, but it's.

It'S a, it's a little bit expensive, sophisticated city on a price per square foot basis. It's around the same as Hollywood, Beverly Hills, which blows my mind. But it's really getting up there. Still beautiful though.

Yes. And you've got great skiing in the area. We've had some great success stories of other companies in that area. We've had folks like Nurse next door and we've had 1, 800, got junk and we've had some of those folks on the shows talking about it. We've got great coaches in western Canada and so we, we have a lot of love for the area and it's not too far from us here in San Francisco area. Easy, quick flight up there. So I'm happy to get you on the show. So let's talk about this. Started as kind of a side, was not a full time, all in kind of a thing. You were kind of playing the four hour workweek game as you started. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, when I think back, it was only four or five years ago when we were at that level, but you know, I was like, I'm 26. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on the younger side when it comes to business. And like when we started this company, I was still living at home with my mom, just trying to figure out this. I want to become an entrepreneur, make money online. I want to work for my laptop game. And my partner, which, you know, I knew him as like an acquaintance at the time, was already doing that. He's a couple years older than me and was literally living in Thailand like on and off for three or four years and was like, had the perfect four hour workweek business, like would go to the beach, work an hour and then just go off and go party and still make money doing it. And we came together because we always had a passion for health and wellness and we had both gone through like right around the same time stories of just experiencing what it's like to buy supplements and not know what you're getting. And I bought this weight gainer. I was like £130 when I was coming out of high school. I was so little and skinny. So I bought this weight gainer to gain some weight and this thing was like, I kid you not, it was just pure sugar. It was corn, malta, dextrin or whatever that stuff is.

And.

I gained so much weight, but it was all fat, so. So when you're looking at the scale, you're like, this is great.

And then you can tell you all about that. Fantastic. Just the last few years, I've gained 30 pounds. It's not hard to do.

It's. Yeah, I had a premature dad bod is what it was. And I wasn't even close to having kids at all. So I went through what it's like to basically be so confused in the supplement business or the supplement industry and just not know what you're getting. So we had this idea to, to partner up together and be like, hey, you know, we both know marketing, we both know this online, you know, selling online type thing. What if we did a company that focuses on like, we're gonna make supplements, but we're gonna focus on making them honest and kind of show off what's actually in them instead of hiding it. Which is so easy to do with supplements because it's such a scientific, kind of overwhelming thing for a lot of customers. So that's how the idea came together and we thought we'd run it, you know, the four hour workweek style. But as it grew and got more successful, we went, o man, this is something that's way bigger than relaxing on the beach with your laptops.

So you went all in. First product was Luna.

So our first product was Luna. It's a natural sleep aid. We did our research on Amazon as the platform of choice to launch on and thought it'd be great to do a sleep aid because we both had some sleep troubles at the times. We went to our formulator, got something in the works, we launched and had to beg and plead for our first review. We got friends and family to leave reviews in the beginning because we needed something and that's what really started the whole company was our first natural sleep aid.

Is it like a melatonin and something or a mix of.

So it's a mix of natural herbs and melatonin. You're going to need some melatonin to kind of kickstart that sleep process. But also you'd be surprised at how powerful herbs are to get you to fall asleep in just a calm, relaxed state before you actually close your eyes.

Yeah, totally. You know, one of the things I've been digging lately in that world, I should say ambient. No, more natural.

You know what's funny is we bid on the keyword ambient. So on our ppc, we bid on ambient and we make a lot of sales from it. Actually, we do quite well on that.

Yeah. Cause people tie it in and they're like, oh, here's something more natural. People have some horror stories about like, oh, I took a lot of ambient and then I slept. Walked into the hallway naked and yeah, they'll say like, no, I was just. That's my like twisted side coming out to your. But in many hotels now, they'll have like these aromatic oils and stuff and you like rub them on your wrists and stuff like that and wow, they super great. You like feel it totally like changes your whole kind of mood and you settle in and some of the Marriott and the related brands will have that now. It's kind of cool. Okay, so you you start with this sideline thing. It gets to a million bucks in the first year, right. It's starting to grow and you're like, oh, we're onto something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that. The craziest part is we. We always. This is going to sound weird. We always knew it would happen, but it was insane when it actually did happen. It's like, you, you. You know that you're going to make it one day. You know you're going to be successful, but when it actually happens, you're like, oh, my God, like, what do we do now?

Okay.

And what we had to do was.

Really.

Sorry, go ahead.

No, no, no. I just wanted a picture of that. Phase one. So phase one is year one, getting to the million. And I, we work with some accelerator programs as a subset of. So I touch a lot of folks in that world as well. What are the lessons of year one?

So year one was so much fun because Luna's gone through about half a dozen formulation upgrades. So we started with one that I believe was pretty good. But once we learned more from the customer and we got feedback, we were like, oh, we could add in this and we can change that. So what we ended up doing was our first order. We might have ordered one or 2,000 units and took us a couple months to sell through that. And then we go and order the second one and we make improvements and then we tell the customer like, hey, we've improved the product and we didn't change the price. It's the same great price. And what really helped with that was we've got thousands of people now on Amazon, subscribe and save. So every month they just automatically get a new order. They get their supplements delivered straight to them. They get a 15% discount with it. So you've got people that if they have sleep troubles, they're just happy to now get a better product, show up at their door. So we really learned to listen to the customer that way. We learned also focus on the details when it comes to all the little things that you can do to convince someone to buy you over the competitors. And that was from little things like split testing images in the beginning to our keyword placements, to eventually our pricing, which we ended up being the highest price sleep aid on the market, breaking the $20 barrier, which most competitors can't do that. And in fact, just straight melatonin sells for four to $8 for about the same capital size. So we really figured out kind of how to position ourselves. We also benefited from what I believe that A lot of people think that we've been in the game for so long, you look at the label and it almost looks like we would be at home in a GNC selling for 10 years or a Walgreens or any major big box retailer. And I think that helped give some trust to it. Just a branding that looks like we've been around for a while, even though we haven't. And I think that build up trust in people who were really just, you know, sleep is a funny thing where people can be quite upset when it doesn't work and they just say, screw it, I'm moving on to the next thing. I mean, it's such a sensitive, emotional topic. So when they find something that works, they're thrilled. I mean, they will stick with it for as long as they possibly can.

It's distressing when you can't. And I've gone through periods of life where I really struggle to get to sleep and stay asleep. And lately it's been good. But, but there have been times where it was a real problem. And if you think about it, like, I don't. We don't have too many commonly known, but one really well known is Michael Jackson. Right. Who was so troubled by his insomnia that it drove him to overdose. Right. And with complication. Dr. Maybe, but. But that's a really clear kind of of a problem taken to an extreme. So people care a lot about it. And when I think about what you said there, like, I hear like, getting something good and then releasing it, but then iterating, like, iterating on the ads, iterating on the packaging, iterating on the formulation, like a lot of tweaking and tuning on that to get that point.

Our biggest fear was becoming a commodity, which a lot of supplements are. Vitamin A, B, C, A through C. They're usually all around the same price. There are different quality levels, but then it's just, do I pick company A or B, which one is cheaper? And that's why we really loved putting a focus on the formulas and creating something different. Because what I noticed about those products and why they do well is we're not just selling a sleep aid, we're just selling you on the idea and the feeling of getting to sleep. And if you're buying melatonin, you're just buying the thing. You're buying a little powder in the capsule. But if you're buying Luna, you're getting a great night's sleep and, and not waking up groggy as well. So that's something that we noticed to really differentiate ourselves, trademarking the logo early, just getting away from the competitors and trying to carve out our own little area within this super competitive and dominant marketplace.

Yeah, the other thing I hear in that is that different. So not commoditizing. And then both the packaging and the pricing say this is not a commodity. So if you had something that was the same price and you were saying, well, this is better than Melatonin, but cheap, like, yeah, okay, but something about when the packaging and the pricing both say this is special, I'm inclined to believe it. Whether or not it's real, whether you're selling me snake oil or not, I don't. It's not. It doesn't actually matter that much. My perception is, well, this is quite a bit more expensive, but okay, I'm getting however many capsules I'm getting. And so that's however many nights and that's so much dollars per night. And like, all right, well if this. And look at all these good reviews and well, I'm going to give this a try, you know, so a twenty buck purchase is better than in my mind than the four or five dollar purchase. I already know what Melatonin does.

Yeah, we noticed there was a direct correlation between how much we could sell of any product and the social proof that shows up in Amazon's cases, reviews. So basically what we found pretty early on is the more reviews you're able to get and the more people you're able to get talking about your product, the more we were able to charge and the more we were able to sell both at the same time. So we, you know, will sometimes launch.

Products that aren't as proven and want to launch at a bit of a lower price. We'll kind of not go too cheap, but we'll go kind of mid market and we'll get to the point where we want to build up our reviews and get people talking to where we can then get to the point of justifying the higher prices. Because if you can see, you know, Luna's got 4,000, almost 5,000 five star, four and five star reviews that we've gathered over. I don't know, it's been four something years. It's tough to compete with that if you're a competitor. So we can really charge that premium and get the volume that comes with it too.

So that gets us to first year and you start to get serious. How many employees do you end the year with?

So first year we may have had, I mean, I'm thinking maybe three or four part time employees, outsourced contractors like this is. This is mainly my partner and I and our two laptops.

Not regular payroll, not regular office, anything like that?

No, nothing like that.

It's a good lesson because you can spend a lot of invested money getting to that point and then have, and then be hitting that first million with a lot of overhead already. So you've stayed pretty lean through that point. So now we have the 1 to 10 million journey over the last four years. Talk to us about that, the lessons and how you've managed to do that and where we are today.

One of the cogs that we found when we sped up this cog in the machine, it made the whole machine bigger and it grew us. And that was product launches. The way we launched that first product. We can use that formula over and over and over and essentially grow the company with every new product that we did. So we, I think in year two launched, I want to say 10, around 8 or 10, which is a lot bigger than the one or two that we had in the first year. And this complicated things a bit with, you know, where we've got inventory, how much we place orders for. But all of that was like good problems to have. Like we just found when we pressed on this big red button that was launch new products and just kind of repeat the same processes over and over. We just scaled the business. In fact, we scaled it so quickly that we broke almost everything in the company. We broke customer service from getting too many customers buying where they couldn't. People couldn't even get a reply from us for a day or two. We broke operations, we broke marketing because products were going out of stock so quickly, which is kind of like the cardinal sin of Amazon. You never want to go out of stock because you always want to be available to the customer. And we just had all these problems, but a lot of them were good problems to have. Even our finance mess, we had this big bookkeeping disaster. We had all these transactions and they weren't being booked properly. So we had to go back and do all this backtracking to get the books properly laid out. But what that set us up for is now when we're going to go approach an investor or we need some financing. We've got these incredible books that are rock solid and you can see from point A to B. Oh, okay, this makes sense. I understand what these guys are doing here. We went through this process of like, holy cow, we're growing so much, but everything is breaking. And this is the best thing for Me, because I never went to college or business school or anything. So I learned everything through just majorly screwing up. Like, you know, I kind of knew what I was doing starting this company. But if you think that I knew what I was doing from 2 to 5 million and 5 to 10, like, it's a complete joke. Like, we just. We figured things out along as we went and try not to make any major mistakes, which is why scaling up was so great, because it kind of gave us a blueprint that we probably have figure out on our own, but it would take us a lot longer to do. So it's nice to have that blueprint there available for us.

So what were the elements that you used?

So we used the big four. We used the big four in scaling up. So a big thing that we did was people. So, like, when we did eventually in year three, Go get a team, we placed such a big emphasis on people, leadership, autonomy, hiring, know great people that have experience and know what they're doing and offering them incredible, you know, culture and perks in the workplace. With the accounting cleanup, we got the cash right, so, you know, we were able to do better purchasing. We're able to forecast better. We're able to, you know, have actual cash in the bank instead of running so low and then getting a big transfer and then depleting it again. Strategy, we're able to do by just literally having a team having these whiteboards behind me in our boardroom and just working things out with the team and saying, well, when we press this button, it does this. And when we do this, we want to avoid that and figuring those things out. And then execution was quarterly theme, critical number, getting everybody on board. Also, we have a big thing on transparency. So we believe in everybody seeing the sales numbers. Everybody see in the company's, sees our bank balance, Everybody sees how much we pay in taxes for the company. We're big fans of transparency because then people see how their job can actually affect those numbers. So one of the things that we're doing right now is we're actually educating someone like our customer service advocates about what EBITDA means. And, you know, it's the first time they've ever heard of it. But when they understand customer service, it affects our ebitda, which means that our profit share is going to be bigger because we're basing off ebitda. It's interesting how you get those people to make different decisions based on when they actually get all the info versus when you're hiding that all to yourself and just the executives.

Yeah, it's really great. I hear you weaving in a whole bunch of different things in the process and being a real student of the process. Right. Not just touching on one thing or another, but as you point out, as you start to grow, whatever the growth rate is against the scale of stuff, that the pace of growth wherever you're at now can start to break things can bring new challenges. And what you did at 1 million doesn't work at 5 million and certainly doesn't work at 10. And at each stage, systems, processes, people, strategy, it's all got to evolve along the way. So 25 people today.

So we're at 25. We got just under 20 in office, some other part time contractors, videographers, people like that that are outside. But our whole team is right around 25 and looking like it's going to about double in the next two to three years.

And, and so you have you started selling on Amazon? Right. And I think two things I'd love to hear about is what could you tell others about selling on Amazon successfully and how do you remain not dependent or become not dependent on Amazon so that you have some direct access to those clients? So tell us first how to be successful on Amazon.

Sure. So Amazon is just incredible for customer acquisition. They are just so good at having a, you know, just the biggest massive group of millions and millions of people you could ever imagine that are ready to buy daily. So you can really take advantage of that by doing the things that you need to do to get any product to rank one, position one on Amazon, which is kind of the same thing of what Google used to be like five, 10 years ago. Do some SEO, get your product or your website on page one and kind of gather all that traffic and you can do what you want with it on Amazon. It's very similar, but we're now kind of realizing that you have to think of it as, I don't want to call it two separate businesses, but maybe two separate ventures for your company where it's very difficult to extract the actual buyers away from Amazon and onto, let's say your website or to buy from you somewhere else because naturally they don't want to. It's actually more inconvenient for them to buy from your website versus just staying on Amazon because you got to remember that they're not buying our sleep aid on itself a single purchase. They're going to buy it with toilet paper and magazine kid stuff and all the house stuff that they buy anyways. So what we're kind of looking at is growing the Amazon business and taking advantage of all the customers that are there. We get some trickle over to the website and other places to buy, but it just gives you an incredible amount of data about your customer, who you want to buy from you, what prices work the best. Just so much about running a business at scale. I mean we do 150,000 plus orders per year on Amazon, so we've just got incredible data. And then we're able to go off of Amazon through YouTube, Facebook, SEO, content marketing influencers to go get more of those people. Because even though so many people buy on Amazon, it's still not everybody. And some people just don't want to get stuff from there or they don't care because they don't have prime or you know, there's a lot of reasons why as well as international, you know, there's a big, there's a big emphasis on Amazon in the States. But you got to remember like up here in Canada, Amazon is just starting now to become more popular in Europe, it's just starting. So it's not the main buying area for most people. They still buy from plenty of other websites. They buy in person and you're able to kind of get ahead of that a little bit by reaching them and actually going in and acquiring that customer.

Right. So I'm continuous Amazon prime buyer because it's so much easier and generally not always it's pretty cost effective relative to going to the shop. But sometimes you pay taxes, sometimes you don't, sometimes you pay shipping, but often you don't with Prime. But and I tend to look for that fulfilled by Amazon and, and, or Amazon sales because it's a little more credible, it's a little more reliable. The related sales, I mean it costs the merchant more to be fulfilled by Amazon that FBA as they call it. But that, but there's a great deal of peace of mind for the customer. Like if I order this I know that it's actually going to get shipped. Whereas when you're, when someone's doing their own shipping, you like don't really know if you place an order and you hope in the next few days it maybe get shipped Amazon, it's going to get confirmed, it's going to ship tomorrow or later today kind of thing. Right. Sometimes it shows up fast. So those are the first two things that I look at. Right. And it's just convenient like broader range of like everything that I could want like all in one place. But it's not everything and sometimes special things don't come from there. So how do you get those folks then to start to buy from you and other if they are committed to that, they are getting that convenience, how do I get them to buy from me in some other realm?

So what we've noticed is you want to do things that are unique or so there's two ways that you can go unique or you can go as good as Amsol. So in the unique sense, what we can do is we can do bundle package offers, we can do special edition products, we can do something that isn't always or isn't usually available on Amazon. So if you're selling iPhone cases, it might mean do a special line, a special line away from Amazon that the customer can only get from your website and if you've done a good job, it's going to be compelling enough for them to go to your website and buy from there. From the as good as Amazon sense, I would say do everything you can to match two day shipping. So Amazon has made two day shipping the standard. They expect it. If you order on a Monday, it's got to show up on a Wednesday. So and what you can do is you can still use Amazon FBA to fulfill your items. So they can buy from the website, but you can use Amazon to ship or you can use another carrier and just match it. I mean we're usually talking about within the United States, maybe Canada as well and here. But just that feeling of knowing, oh, I'm going to get it by Wednesday and you know, I can trust this, I know it's going to come quickly is a big thing that we can do on the website as well as just going for auto ship. And if you have a product that people take, you know, daily, monthly, weekly, whatever it is, if it's a consumable product, focusing on getting them a bit of a discount, but going and actually getting them on an auto ship program is really great as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's one of the things that makes your business so interesting. Because if I like your product, getting on a subscription renewal is a really great thing. Right?

Yeah.

And it also prevents people from going to the competitors because they don't have to search sleep aid every month to go buy a new one. Oh, they might see, oh, there's a new one out, I'm going to try that one instead. They'll just stick with the one that they know and love. They don't have to worry about works.

Don'T mess with it. Right, so what do you see now? What are the things you're struggling with today at this level, 10x above where you started.

So I mean we've got, you know, we've only got 25, 26 SKUs, but when you're dealing with, you know, five major parts of the world that you sell in, you've got inventory sitting all over the world. We've got some of it going to Asia, we've got some going to Europe, we've got Canada, States, we've got Australia, we've got Japan. It's kind of getting to the point where regulation and government agencies are coming into play where we're big enough now that we kind of got to play by their rules, which oftentimes slows down the process a lot. Like we have to go get government NPN numbers for Canada and can't sell anything up here until we do that. So I mean we're actually selling more, much more in the States than our home here in Canada, partly because of that reason as well as the market size. But everything kind of gets a bit slower. There's more double checks, there's more process to things. But we're always trying to keep things lean. We always want to have that perspective of we're still a small, lean, hungry company that can move relatively quickly and just trying to stay on top of the market. We're also a little bit influenced by trends, things like keto and high fat diets. We've had some great success with that. But who knows, maybe next year there's going to be a new thing that we can jump on and kind of ride that up as people like a new thing in the health and wellness industry. So we're always kind of dealing with the market forces and the things that are outside of our control and trying to balance those expectations is one of the hardest things to do. But with that being said, we're still growing 50, 60, 75% year over year. So I'd love for that to be at 100. But we're trying to get as much growth as we possibly can.

Be careful what you wish for. I've had a couple companies more than double this year. I've had some go up more than 50%. I had one go almost 5x. Those big growth bring unique problems with them in terms of cash and challenge to the operations and drama and things like that. So some, I mean it's heady and it's fun to have crazy growth, but like dealing with a flood, you need to learn to swim in new waters.

Yeah, that's a real great way of putting it. We, we go through that almost on a daily basis. But you know, with that being said, I also feel like we're pretty blessed to be able to do so because I think it's such a privilege to be able to run such a large company, at least for me, at such a young age without any traditional experience and still get the amazing growth and just this wild ride of having a growing, thriving company. So I mean the bad comes with the good and vice versa and just want to stay grateful and humble and try and fix these problems one by one.

So a couple of guys under 30 still with a company that's 10x from a million to 10 million and now trending towards 30 million in short order. What's been the mindset shift from the beginning to today?

Oh, that. Okay, so when we started we, you know, keep in mind when we started four hour work week lifestyle, it's, you know, it's not we're going to slack off, but it's more like we're going.

To create a real cool business here. And we had this tracker when we track our monthly sales that we look at our net sales and if we split that 50, 50 each month, here's how much money we'd make each like going into our pockets. And it got to the point where it's like each of us were at like 20 grand. Keep in mind, we never took this much from the company. It was always like kind of like a goal to work towards. And we simply realized that this thing is getting so much bigger than we thought. There's no way we're going to pull out 50 grand a month each out of this thing. And just because we'll bleed all the cash out of this company and we'll starve the growth. So once it got to the point where we're like, okay, let's get, let's go all in, let's get an office, let's get payroll, let's get a team, let's get this huge investment. It really changed to long term thinking. You know, we're thinking three, four, five years down the road and making huge investments and huge bets into something else paying off in the long run, such as content marketing or really focusing on transparency, which is difficult to do. A lot of the times it's not on us, it's the manufacturers and we have to work with them to get certain standards that we're looking to pass on to our customers. All of this hard work and this push that doesn't really show up in the monthly sales quite yet. It's all for the greater benefit down the road. And I think that the reason why we're at around the $10 million mark now is because when we were at 2 or 3, we were thinking, okay, what do we need to do to get to 10? And we did that work back then. So I'm thinking now the work that we're doing now sets us up for 25, 30 million and hopefully we can continue that growth trend. And it's tough. You know, it's that whole, you know, battle that a lot of entrepreneurs deal with is that we're so good at putting off. We're so good at putting off the short term and investing into the long term. And sometimes we take it too far and sometimes we got to remember that we have to reward ourselves for the hard work, but to always focus on the long term because that's really where the value gets created. So still to this day we don't take large salaries from the company, we don't take big distributions. We haven't sold any equity just yet. Everything's been, all the cash we generated has been put back into the company for the future growth. That's all going to lead up to something great one day down the road in the end. But it's looking like that's going to be at least a couple more years away.

If I could recap a bunch of points before we run out of time here, there are a number of stages that you've gone through. Shifts in your mindset when you're doing it. Shifts in the team, the people, the tools, the approaches, the product line. All of that stuff's evolved quite a bit over time. And you see that continuing to evolve. I also heard you just speaking about this idea of imagining that future a couple steps down the way. Another one of your Canadian folks who's done really well in growing stuff and we did a show on Painted picture, right? And we talked to Brian Scudemore with 1-800-got junk about his process of creating this rich three year vision. So we take not only the revenue number that we imagine or the scale or the BHAG or some other metric that we're driving towards, and now we create a picture. What does the company look like and what's being said about me in the press and what does my life look like and what does the team and the office and all that kind of thing. And I hear you doing some of that work as well in the process and applying. It's really great to get this summary from you. If you want to learn more about Kevin and the business. Just go to nestednaturals.com and you can also find Kevin on LinkedIn if you want to get his personal info and connect to him there. But nestednaturals.com is is where you'll find him and I really appreciate hearing this kind of 10x story from this through that and then starting to see the next iteration from this because I think we can all relate and looking back and reflecting on it. I also love how many pieces that you've touched and used in the process and I think that's probably why I know many companies that have spent 15 years to get to their first 10 million and so to start to move through it that quickly is really great. You'll find us every week here with another entrepreneur, guru, thought leader, author, something in the world of scaling your business, scaling your own leadership to help. And you can get these wherever you get your podcasts or you can go to our website and subscribe. We'll send you an email update with them every week. You can also get there all sorts of free tools, worksheets and agendas and things like that of how to get your company applying the scaling up framework around people, strategy, execution and cash to your business. And we even have a free book there if you want to get a copy of Scaling up for free, just pay the shipping and handling on it. We'll send you one. Our pleasure. So scalingcoach.com is where to get all that. Kevin, it's so great to have you on the show. Thanks again for talking and we'll talk to everybody again next week.

Thanks Bill. Really appreciate it.

Once again, special thanks to our original growth guru, Vern Harnish. This show is produced by Nye Obaid. Audio production is done by Podfly Productions with audio editing by Albert Burge, and the show notes are compiled by Ein Codena and proofread by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of our show today, please share it with somebody else so they too can get the value and let us know the parts that you most loved. Thanks again for listening and keep Scaling Up SA.