154: Stacey Brown Randall — Get More Referrals

Well, some of our best, most valuable business comes from referral. But what is a referral as distinct from a lead? How do you cultivate it? That's what today's show is all about, about developing scalable, repeatable referral practices systems. Listen in and learn how to get more referral. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. So on the show with me today is Stacy Brown Randall. Do you like all three names or is that what you got called when you're in trouble?

Actually, I was never called that when I was in trouble. So I like all three names.

All three names. Most of us think of that when your mom calls you and then you know there's hell to pay. You did something you forgot, you, you like, whatever.

I got called something else when I was in trouble, so it wasn't the full three things.

Awesome. Welcome to the show. So you're in the Charlotte area?

I am, yes.

Yeah. And you're going to talk, we're talking today about, well, really a lesson learned from failure. It's grown into another business. So we'll get into all of that in just a second. I think it's great though, to get this picture. So this is really an experience based business of trial and error and I think so many come like this. So talk to us about the failure that grew it. Give us kind of your. When did you start as an entrepreneur? What made you think that that was for you?

So you know what's. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. People, I think people are kind of fascinated when they talk to entrepreneurs and when they aren't an entrepreneur themselves and they're like, does the people in your family, do they get it? And I always laugh because I come from a family of entrepreneurs.

Oh, you do?

But they're the crazy kind. And I can call them crazy a because they love me and they're my family, but they truly are the crazy kind because they all own restaurants. It's like the kind of entrepreneur I never wanted to be, obviously. But so I, you know, I sit around the Thanksgiving table, I sit around the Christmas table at dinner time and I'm looking at, you know, I've got a brother and a grandmother and at one point my mother who ran my grandmother's restaurant. And I've got an uncle who owns a restaurant and my husband at one point owned a restaurant. He just recently sold it after 15 years. And, you know, and I got another uncle that, you know, owns a hospitality business and like, so I'M looking around the table and I've got. And my father was an author, so I'm looking around the table and I've got just a sea of entrepreneurs. So the becoming an entrepreneur was never really all that weird. It wasn't something that, you know, it was like, what? No one does that in our family. We're all CPAs. Right. So it was really encouraging in that regards to know that, hey, I want to be an entrepreneur. The crazy thing, though, is, Bill, not everybody in my family can tell you what I do because I don't do what they do.

Yeah.

And so it's different. But, you know, I always knew I wanted to start a business, but I was smart enough to know I didn't know what I wanted to start. So, you know, like most people, graduated college, got my first job. I like to say I have a portfolio career, had a couple of different jobs. I kind of went where I was recruited to do different jobs, picked up a lot of great skill sets that would serve me well. And eventually I would come to a place where I was just done with working for other people and wanted to start a business. At that point, they still didn't know what it looked like, But I had a company that was a husband and wife team, and they said, we want to start this new division. You have all the expertise for it, because come start this division and be our partner. And, you know, the lesson I would learn the hard way. No matter how wonderful they are, you're not in a partnership. When you're with a married couple, you're always the odd man out. And so I would be about a year into that partnership. And the great thing about this, that makes the story that much more interesting is when they said, come join our partnership, I gave notice to leave Corporate America. I did not realize I was four weeks pregnant. Just not the way I suggest doing it. If you can control it, just going to put it out there. So I obviously, you know, had my first child while I was working this partnership, and then I would. I was probably about eight or nine months in, and our largest client that I had landed for this company said, you can do this on your own, and the piece we need from you is the piece you do really well, and it's not the piece that the other. We can still use your existing company for that. So there's no conflict of interest. You know, there wasn't any kind of like we had to worry about, you know, that. And so I got encouraged by a client to start my own business, and they were My largest client for two years. And I started an HR consulting firm. And I would, from the outside looking in, you would have thought I was having great success. I mean, I had clients like kpmg, bdo, Snyder's, Lance, Coca Cola, Bottling, City of Charlotte. Like I had some big name clients that were, you know, that were my clients and big name companies, excuse me, that were my clients. And so from the outside looking in, you'd have thought, wow, she's doing great. But the truth is I was working entirely too hard for every business I did land. And after four years, almost five years, I finally just waved the white flag of surrender and realized that it wasn't working. Not the way I had intended, not the way I had wanted it to. I learned some really hard lessons during that. Obviously that I was able to apply when I started my second business, but I had to take a break. I had to go get a job. First of all, we needed money, but I had to go, I had to go take a job. And while I was there, luckily, after I like, you know, bandaged up my ego and, you know, licked my wounds and made myself feel better, I started paying attention to like, well, everybody else seems to be succeeding. Why in the heck did I fail? And I knew what I was good at, but I also then had to force myself to recognize, what am I not good at? And so when I looked back at that business and I said, how did I get kpmg, BDO and Snyder's, Lance and Coca Cola, like how did I get all those companies? And I realized I did a ton of networking and I did a ton of networking with not just one child, but then a second child would come along and that was killing me. I mean, it was, it was, and it was the. I would also put my head down and do the work and not nurture the business development after that and never created systems and processes behind that to work so I didn't have to work it, right. I mean, this is like the age old tale for every entrepreneur. Probably on some level that fails. And so I know I had to wave that white flag of surrender. But when I looked back, I was like, wow, I really looked like I grew my business the hardest way possible with all that networking and attending conferences and going to networking events and that's how many 7 million cups of coffee can you have and lunches with people. And so when I reflected back, I was like, there's gotta be an easier way. So when I started my second business, so while I was at the corporate job, I Got certified as a productivity and business coach. And when I started that coaching practice, I was like, I've got to figure out how to grow a business and I need to be able to do it without having to spend a ton of time networking and like working so hard and hustling so much to bring in clients. I need this to be a little bit more automatic. And so when I looked back, I was like, wow, I didn't get any referrals. Actually, Bill, the only referral my first business that HR firm that would fail would receive would come two years after I had shut it down. So at least I knew my reputation was good and lasted outside longer than the business itself, right? So that I did good work. And so that's really what I decided to figure out when I started my second business is how can I grow? I cannot fail. Which I think sometimes, like I can't fail again. Which I think sometimes forces you to take risk you may have been unwilling to take before. And I started figuring out, okay, how can I grow my business? You know, I started out like traditionally, like I think a lot of people who start a service based business, right, was coaching. As I started it out with more networking, right, Letting people know, not doing HR consulting anymore, not working at the company anymore. But as that business grew, I started paying attention to how I could generate referrals. I just wanted to do it without asking because I didn't like that advice. And that advice permeates just about every industry and has for decades. And I just didn't want to do it by asking. And so I didn't set out to figure out how to generate referrals without asking. I did it from sheer necessity and guinea pigging in my business to be, be successful. Because I didn't want a cold call and I didn't, you know, I'd spend a ton of time networking and eventually I would add a third child to our mix. So, you know, obviously I wanted to have more of a balance and I wanted to have more of that kind of almost automatic how am I going to fill this pipeline of new clients? And I wanted to create a process around it so that it could run even if I wasn't touching it every single day. But business development was happening every single day. And so that's really what I kind of started figuring out was this. Referrals without asking. And then my clients started asking me, wait, how are you doing that? So I'd be coaching the. Coaching the business banker, right? And you'd be like, wait a minute, how are you doing that? I'd be coaching the small business owner and they'd be like, wait a minute, how are you doing that? As I started teaching them, the company that I have now, the coaching practice would shift its focus and it would become the company that I have now.

An area of coaching, which is interesting because you must. So you come from entrepreneurs, you have a fair amount of moxie because out of a business failure, you're starting a coaching business.

Who best to coach but then someone who's failed. Right.

Well, it's true, but ironic. Right. People also want you to know that you could succeed at something too, but that the failures are some of our biggest tuition. Right. I think of some multimillion dollar mistakes that I've made there. I think some of my more powerful lessons to people today.

Yes. Agreed.

Yeah. So you went and you started doing this. Now you're focusing on this. So talk to us about. Well, I don't know, why don't you. Actually, you shared a couple stories as we were getting ready for the show. Why don't you maybe talk to us about the LSQ company and developing this for them and then we can later get into the parts of it.

Right, right, Absolutely. So I think that's probably one of the questions that people always want to know, is this going, how can I apply this in my business? And there's really. And I always tell folks, it's the same steps I'm going to teach to everybody. What I have figured out to do of how to generate referrals without asking. Now, if you were to go and Google right now, how do I get referrals? You're going to be hit with an onslaught of thousands and thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of articles on how to ask, how not to look desperate when you're asking how to pay. Right. How to be really promotional and gimmicky to generate referrals. And so I really work with the person who. That doesn't fit who they are as a person. Like, they don't want to ask, they don't want to pay, and they don't want to be overly promotional and gimmicky. And so when I was reverse engineering how referrals worked, the first place I went was, well, why do they happen? I mean, that's kind of where I started from was why do they happen? What's the human dynamic and the psychology behind it? And I built my process from there. And some of this was just, I'm gonna be honest, it was some dumb luck. And so as things started Happening. And I would start talking to companies, they'd be like, how can we do this right? Like, how can we. And some people, it's just, it's the solopreneur. I'm the attorney who's left the big firm and started my own practice. How do I get referrals without asking? No one ever taught me how to sell and I don't want anything that looks like sales, so your stuff doesn't feel salesy. Teach me your model. But then it's going into like larger companies like you mentioned, and it's looking at it from the perspective of we have a team of business development people. They definitely have lead gen, you know, obviously a lot of different lead gen sources or activities happening, but they want referrals to be a supplement or an augment. I mean, eventually I think everyone would love for referrals to become the number one way we get our business. But they're usually looking for how do we give our salespeople our business development officers? How do we give them another tool in their toolbox of how to generate referrals? And what I find when I go into companies is I have to actually undo a lot of decade long thinking of how you go about getting referrals. So one of my favorite conversations I had with the guy who was in charge of this company was having. We had a conversation and I was like, you know, the first thing I have to do is you got to stop telling them the only way to get referrals is asking. And he was like, that was hard. It's really hard for people because they're like, but that's all the advice that's ever been out there. I'm like, I know. And I said, are your people asking? He was like, no, they hate it. I'm like, exactly. So if they don't want to do it, then let's give them some other options. And it was walking them through, you know, and looking at it from that process perspective of even though I'm teaching this to 30, 50, it doesn't matter, right? How many people are in the room that are learning this. What I'm teaching them though is as to how to, to really focus on the relationships they have and then how to look for those, those relationships and then how to use the right language that can generate or trigger referrals. But we're still never asking. So in some cases when I'm working with a large company, they're like, well, what this. I get this question a lot. Will this work for larger companies? I'm like if your salesperson has to build relationships with your clients before their prospects, before they become a client, and then they build relationships, right, Then yes, this will absolutely work. And it may not just be clients, they're building relationships with it. Maybe centers of influen, right? Like, this isn't brand new stuff, but it's how we build those relationships with clients and with centers of influence so that they obviously are thinking about us from a referral perspective. And so I always tell people when they're like, hey, I want my sales team to get, you know, more referrals. The first thing I always tell them is, well, if you're telling them to ask and they refuse to ask, they're never. You're just not doing it right. It's like having a tactic in your toolbox and deciding not to use it. And then a lot of companies, they only provide an incentivized referral program, which, you know, in some cases works, but it really depends on what you're doing. And in a lot of cases it doesn't work. And the asking is really that short term fix. What I want to show people how to do is even if there's like 30 like you all across the country, it's about your relationships that you have with your clients, your centers of influence, and then how well you take care of them and then how well you use the right language to plant the seeds for them to think about you from a referral perspective. Nothing I teach is rocket science except for quite potentially the language piece of how we plant referral seeds. Everything is going back to the basics of how we want to do business. So I never tell a company, you, you shouldn't have all your other sources and legion sources of how you're bringing in business, but you should be developing the ability within your client or within your sales professionals to know how to build relationships. And it's literally just walking them through what that looks like and taking them through the steps of let's identify who's referred you in the past. Okay? Once we know who's referred you in the past, right now we know who we can focus on as our referral sources. And then it's like teaching them how do you stay connected in a way that is not your newsletter and is not always drive bys and phone calls? How do you stay connected in a way and use the right language that will have them thinking about you from a referral perspective? So not rocket science, but there are pieces and nuances to it that people have to understand for it to actually work.

So, so what did you do with lsq? What was that company like? What was the.

So it was interesting, you know, working with their, with their folks. It was really getting them to what. Ultimately, what I do with anyone that I work with is I want you to build what I call a referral plan. And that referral plan is really. It's who are my. It's identifying who are my referral sources. So each person, it's not the company's referral sources, it's yours. Because people don't refer companies, they refer humans, they refer people. So each salesperson saying, okay, these are my referral sources. Then we create a plan, which is basically just looking at it. If we were looking at this from a, from a year's perspective, what are you going to do to build meaningful and memorable connections and outreach, what we call touch points. When we're building the plan with those referral sources and then using the right language, you're going to plant, right there's the right referral seeds that you're going to plant when you're doing that outreach. So for people, it all looks a little bit different in terms of what it looks like. So everybody gets kind of like their own customized plan, but it's based on. I always tell folks, they're like, what should I do? I'm like, that's the wrong first question. The wrong first question isn't, you know, what should I do to create these touch points? Like, what should my outreach look like? The first right question is, well, who are the people who've referred you before? And then what do you think they need from you? The good news is what most people need from you when they've been referring you is actually just to be thanked and acknowledged. And it is amazing to me how many people don't take the time to just actually think and acknowledge the referral sources for a referral received, like just with a handwritten thank you note. I mean, I get messages on LinkedIn and through Facebook and email, they'll be like, you know, I had somebody one time tell me, like, I refer people out to financial advisors all the time and they never thank me. And I hear that story a lot. And it's amazing to me how sometimes I can be paid what I'm paid to remind people to write thank you notes. But that's not everything that the plan is built on. It's really about if someone's going to refer you, they first can't forget about you. And then you have to make sure that they know you care about them. So just being on your newsletter doesn't mean you care about them. Like, what do you do that's meaningful and memorable and meaningful as outreach to them, and how do you support them? Most of the time, when I do this with larger companies like LSQ and others, most of the time, what that looks like is they're like, well, we'll just send them, you know, some of our logoed items as gifts and tell them thank you. I'm like, who is a logo item all about? Mm, you. Not about you. It's about them. What do they need? Right. What does that outreach look like for them? So a lot of times it's just looking at each individual salesperson, whether you're a solopreneur or you're on a team of 50. Doesn't matter. Right? Or team of 5,000. Right. It's looking at them and saying, who's referring you? And then how do we build a better, stronger relationship with them? By taking care of them in a way that's going to really get back to business basics and having that person say, wow, I just didn't think they thought about me in that way. So here's an example. This is something that I did in my own business when I look at who my referral sources are, because when I was a productivity and business coach, I coached, like, who my niche was was actually business owners who were also parents. That was really my niche. And so when I looked at who my referral sources are, right. They mirrored a lot of my clients, which is sometimes the case and sometimes not the case. You won't know it till you go through the data to understand who's actually referring you. And so I look at my referral sources, and I have a lot of business owners who are parents. One of the things I decided to do, right, as part of my referral plan, to be memorable and meaningful and to stay top of mind with this outreach. And I don't mean you're sending, like, cards every month and you're sending, like, all these gifts and, like, I'm not talking about things that. That are gimmicky or promotional, but really memorable and meaningful. And there is a big difference. But one thing I did was I decided to recognize Mother's Day and Father's Day because who. Whose business coach is going to recognize them on Mother's Day and Father's Day? Like, maybe on Labor Day. Right, but who. And this is just one example. But whose business coach is going to recognize them on Mother's Day and Father's Day. But for all the mothers that had been referring me on Mother's Day, I sent them a Wonder Woman water bottle. And the card just said, never forget, you are our hero. Happy Mother's Day, Stacy. And when they removed the card, my logo wasn't on it, my name wasn't on it, my phone number wasn't on it, my web address wasn't on it. It was just the Wonder Woman water bottle. But years later, I have people approach me and saying, I love that water bottle. It meant so much to me that you remembered that I'm a mom and you recognized me on Mother's Day. And so I think it's the little things like that that we do that doesn't happen a lot in business because of our. Go, go, go, go, go. What's easy? Where's my easy button? So even when I'm doing it with a really large company like we're talking about, I still get it down to the individual salesperson and say, who's referring you and what can you do to be memorable and meaningful with them in an ongoing way to build connection? And we do. We deliver it in the program through touch points. But really looking at it from that perspective of you want them to feel like you care because guess what? You actually care. Like, we can't manipulate this. We can't fake our way through this. So I build a lot of stuff. I tell folks. It kind of builds off that Maya Angelou quote that says you don't remember what people say or what they do, but we always remember how people made us feel. And so we try to. That's what we're looking to build off of, is making sure referral sources know how valuable they are to us. And it's really. This is basic.

We've done a couple of good shows. You'll probably like John Rulin and Giftology. We've done two shows with John where we talk about making the gift meaningful and thoughtful and, and having it be about them more than you versus some logo items like, here you go, here's my logo stuff.

Right.

Which tends to be more about you.

It's. It's always about us. Yes. And so I have a lot of people who, who talk about, you know, John from that perspective from Giftology and, And what those gifts look like. And I always say, if it's something the other person would want or would need, you're probably going to hit a home run. We don't always know. Let's be honest. We don't always know. I had somebody in my. I have a Facebook group, it's a free one. Referrals without asking. It's about 1300 people in it. And I had somebody post the question about, can you give wine to somebody if you've never been in a. To know if they drink wine. And there was all these responses, Right. Everybody's got an opinion of like, don't do wine, don't do alcohol, do alcohol, doesn't matter. Don't do food. Gluten is a big issue nowadays. Like, it was like all this stuff and I came out and I just said, you know, let's get to the heart of the question. The question is there because you actually don't know them well enough to know if that's something they would want.

Yeah.

Right. And so it's just kind of looking at it and reframing it, and we don't always know 100%, but it's that and gifts are just one of many things we can do to build relationships with people. You know, sometimes people just appreciate you, like sending them a thank you card. Right. Like, there's lots of things we can do and you don't have to spend a huge amount of money on it if budget is an issue. But. Yes, but it is to John's point. Right. What he talks about in his book, and it's the same thing that I preach, is it's not about you, it's about them. Because when we take care of people in a way that matters to them, that's when they remember us.

Yeah. So the first thing is distinguishing what is a referral versus a lead. Let's talk about that for a second. Because I get both, Right. I get referrals very often. I don't know where the referral came from. Somebody said, oh, you should talk to somebody. And like that. And I have trouble identifying it. Like, oh, I was looking for this and somebody suggested you, and I can't remember who. And maybe sometimes they're being polite or something like that. Like they're trying to protect the anonymity. In fact, in one recent case, he was very specific. Yeah. I'm not going to tell you who that was.

That makes you wonder, right?

Well, it was because in this case, it was because it came up in the context of his YPO forum.

Oh, yeah. Which those things are very high confidentiality.

And so I was like, well, just, you know, if you would ask him if it's okay to tell him, because I'd like to say thank you to him personally. Right. So I think in some case, like that like they could get permission to do it if they, if they asked. So he'll maybe remember that at some point and send it back to me. But then a lot and then other times I know about it. That's different than somebody who listens to the podcast or discovers me online or whatever. That's a, that's a lead that comes in looking for help, but they don't know me. And I would say most of my business over the last few years is, is in that the. Is a referral. So I get a number of leads. Lots of them don't turn out to really be a business opportunity for me, but, but the folks who are the other often are because somebody recommended. There's a great deal of credibility there. Is that what you're talking about or is there something else?

No. So I think that's a great starting point for understand a referral is. And you're right, there are lots of different ways that clients, right. Or that I guess that prospects can find out about you. And they're all just, as you said, they're just leads. Right. And the way I like to explain it to people is any prospect kind of starts out as a lead, right. And it's just the way that they're going to find out about you that's so much easier to close them if they're a referral than if they, to your point, heard you on the podcast, right. And then been following you for a while and then maybe decide they want to do business with you. And so you know, and we all know the difference between a cold lead and typically a warm lead. But what I find is that people confuse introductions, word of mouth, buzz, and referrals as all being referrals. And there's actually three distinct, different sales terms and types of prospects. And, and I tell people it's, it's not about knowing is this a referral? Because I have a, like it. I mean, it's important to know, okay, this is a referral. I have a higher chance of closing these because I try to track my close ratio, right? And I know that I get a referral, I have a higher chance of closing this prospect. That's important to know versus word of mouth, buzz and introduction. But what I'm more important, what I'm like more focused on, and what I find more important is you have a different conversation in that first initial phone call, coffee meeting, whatever it is. However, your sales process works when it's an introduction versus word of mouth buzz versus a referral. So referral has two Things that just about no other lead source will really have. And that is there's always a personal connection. And just like you said, hey, somebody told me that I needed to call you. Somebody said, you know, and usually I tell folks that that personal connection happens by the referral source though, like that's what really makes it a referral, is that guy in the YPO group was talking to this other guy and he was like, I'm going to send an email to you and I'm going to send email to you and I'm going to copy Bill on it. I'm going to connect you guys together. So the personal connection is there because it's also the reminder of the trust. Trust, right. This YPO member really, really trusts you to solve his fellow YPO members problems. And so that's why you're the one who's getting referred. So there's. But we want that connection to happen because I never want that prospect to forget why we're having a conversation. Because the minute they remind themselves, oh, that's right, my buddy, right, Sam referred me, the trust is just instantly re established. And so there's always that personal connection. But then the second piece is there's a need identifying. Like, why are we having a conversation? Do you even know you have a problem? Are you in buyer mentality mode? Right. Most people who've been referred know there's a problem and they've at least been willing to say, I'll have a conversation to see if I want to solve this problem. Most are more a little bit further along in the decision making process. That's why referrals are so easy to close or they're less price sensitive or they're quicker to close. Right. Because they show up trusting you because of a personal connection. And then the second part, they actually know they need to buy something or hire someone to solve a problem because the need has been identified. That's what makes a referral a referral, an introduction is the connections usually there. Hey, Bill, you should meet Stacy. Stacy, you should meet Bill. Right? You guys should get to know each other. You hear that? Great. People should know each other. Like why? Right? Like, you know, it's that perspective of are we just meeting to grow our networks? Great. Or are we meeting because actually, you know, Stacy needs to hire Bill or Bill really needs to hire Stacy or whatever it looks like. So it's just an introduction. There's no need identified. The connection is there. Word of mouth buzz is the opposite. There is a need identified. Hey, Bill, I was talking to somebody in my YPO group the other day and they really need to work with you. And so I told them all about you. I gave them their your email address and they're going to follow up. It's so close to being a referral except for there's no connection. You don't know who this person is and you're not in the driver's seat to follow up, to even try to establish rapport and try to establish our first meeting. And so the needs there. We know somebody out there has been told they need you but now we just kind of have to just cross our fingers and hope they get around to actually following up. So that's word of mouth buzz. But they're both missing what a referral has which are both parts connection because that's where the trust is transferred when you're personally connected. And second there's a need identified. We know why we're having a conversation. Somebody needs to buy something or hire someone. So.

We'Ve got the referral, we've got the connection. There is a need for a purchase of some kind. There's some somebody need. They have a problem to solve. Right. And then you talk about identifying the source and tracking those folks.

Yeah, it's always interesting. I always tell folks is when I'm working with anyone, again, large company, Solopreneur, small business owner, it doesn't matter. The first step in my process is to identify who are your referral sources. It's the first step because we don't know how to build a referral plan if we don't know who we're talking about. Right. Like how do we, how do we know what to do to build relationships and connections or deeper relationships and connections if we don't know who we're talking about? And it is amazing to me the companies that I go into and whether I don't again, Solopreneur or you know, larger financial services company and they don't have a tracking mechanism. I can't tell you how many rooms I've sat in, you know, and maybe it's like seven or ten people sitting around the room and they have to do this pre work of identifying their referral sources which the way we do that is we look at our clients and then we map back to how do they hear about us. Now my fingers are always crossed that companies have this in a CRM and I'm sometimes amazed at how successful companies are and then yet they don't track this stuff in a CRM and so it's looking At. And I don't actually don't care if you don't. If you don't use a CRM. Larger companies almost always do, but they still don't track to the level that helps the person trying to identify who their referral sources are. If I've got a small business owner, I'm like, I don't care if you use Excel, but you've got to use something. And so it's tracking that, being able to identify when a prospect comes in, where did they come from? So that you can go in and look and be like, well, who are all the clients? Or who are all the prospects that came in? Because they were referred. Because then that's how I identify who my list of referral sources are. That's how I get my list of gold. That's how I know how to build my plan, because I know who I'm building it for. And so I'm always, I'm always fascinated when I'm in these companies. And they're like, we've been in business 15, 20 years, whatever it's been, right? And they're like, and we don't have this information tracked, they'll maybe have it tracked that someone was a referral, but not who was the referral source, who did the referring. And so it can be really annoying for companies when they have to try to go back and recreate this information. So I'm a big proponent. And if, if people go through the process of identifying their referral sources and in my book generating Business Referrals without asking, it's. I have the whole, Their whole chapter eight is dedicated to teaching this process. I think it's that important. Yeah, I know it's behind a paywall in my paper, in my program, but I think it's so important I actually teach people how to do it because I know you can't go any further to generate referrals until you can identify who's been referring. You and companies that have been in business forever or large, small, doesn't matter, that have to go back and try to do this from memory. It does not go well and it takes a really long time. And so I'm a big proponent of tracking it. And all I'm asking you to track is when a prospect comes in wherever you track that information. If it was a networking group, great. I know you're going to say networking group, but you should also track where. Same thing with a referral. Like in that case, which networking group, Right. If it came through an ad. Which ad, Right. If it came by a referral source. Who's the referral source? It's getting down to that granular level. So you actually know what is working and what isn't working from that perspective. So when people tell me, hey, Stacy, I found you because I heard you on a podcast, I'm always like, who's podcast? Right? I want to know, right? It's just down to that granular level. Then you know actually what's working and what's not working. And so it's kind of that same perspective. When clients are tracking this information, they may track the prospect's name, and it was a referral, but I need. Who referred them. I need the name so that we actually have some data to work with.

So I want to identify them and track them, right. So that I know where to work and what to. But what are you actually going to do with these referrers or what are you doing to have them refer you?

So here's the fascinating thing. I think that when I talk about this and what it looks like, people are like. They're. They're almost waiting for the next response. They're like, yeah, and what else? And I'm like, here. Here's the interesting and fascinating piece about how this works. Think about. I mean, okay, let's. Let's just. Can I put you on the spot? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

So think about the last time you referred someone else. So you're having a conversation with someone, and they're like, I need X. And you thought to yourself, I know exactly who can solve your problem. Right? Obviously, don't give names that you don't want to give a name. But, like, why did you refer the person you referred?

Well, so I can't think of one example. But I refer people all the time. I refer people because I want to be helpful. And I refer people because when somebody's describing something, I hear a need, right? Like, oh, this person or this thing could help this person. Or I think. So it's being helpful, actually, to both of them. But it's. But it's as much about me as them, right? Like, so I have a need to be helpful, and. And I want them to benefit. But it's a, you know, but it's a. But it's me wanting to be helpful.

So it's actually your hypothalamus that's being triggered in that moment, which is the need to belong, the need to help, the need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, right? And that's where, I mean, the hypothalamus regulates a lot of things. Right. But one of the things that does regulate is that need to belong and that need to help. And that's what I tell folks. I'm like, why someone refers you as the solution provider really has nothing to do with you. Now, they won't refer you if they don't trust you. Right. And they won't refer you if they don't know you. And they won't refer you if they've forgotten about you.

Yeah.

So if we keep in mind that why someone refers exactly what you said you wanted to be helpful. Right. Because the referral source. Let's be honest, when we refer people, we like feeling like the hero.

Yeah.

It's actually how we were created. There's nothing wrong with being like, I helped someone today. Right. Like, karma, pay it forward. Like, this is how it works. Right?

Right.

So it's that idea, like, you're helping someone. So I think people really overthink this whole referral thing. But remember, we refer people that we know can do the job, that we can trust our reputation with, because you may have to see that person, that friend that you referred, and you don't want to have to deal with them complaining. Right?

Yeah. So sometimes when I have a hesitation, it's because of that. It's like, oh, I don't know. This one sounds like it could be in this, but I don't know if I could trust this.

Yeah. So my favorite story about when I referred someone, and you never know who's going to hear this, so I'll just keep all people, all the guilty parties innocent by not naming them. But we had someone do some work for us, and our neighbors asked us and they went through everything and they, like, they were asking us about the experience. And my. Which I don't ever feel the need to do this often, but in this case, I did. And they said, okay, so, you know, we're thinking about hiring them. And I said, if it doesn't go well, you're not allowed to blame us. Like, how is that not for a vote of confidence? Right. I mean, at the same time, like, so it's. It's kind of that idea of we refer people that we know can do a good job, that we know can help somebody, because that makes us feel like the hero. But we actually don't refer someone. Right. Ultimately, we don't refer someone because we're trying to help their go grow their business unless. Right. We're super, super close to them and we actually want to see them succeed. And so but that doesn't normally happen for, like, every single person who refers. You can't be your brother, right? Can't be your sister, can't be your mom or your dad, right? Or your spouse. And so we refer because we're helping somebody else solve a problem. Why we refer to you in particular has to do with a couple of key pieces. One, we have to trust you. Two, we actually can't forget about you. Meaning you can't go months and months and years and years without ever, like, reaching out, right. In that regard. And we're more likely to remember you from a subconscious level, right. When we actually feel taken care of. So when I build these referral generating plans for companies or individuals, business owners, whomever, they're always like, it's really, really simple. I'm like, I know. It's like getting back to business basics. So this outreach I want you to build is just how we maintain connections, right? It's like a simple example. Super simple example. A lot of companies send out Christmas cards. Why do we go and buy the generic Christmas cards to send out that we're then going to pay someone to sign or. Or have, you know, a robot and a third party, right, Sign for us? When you could take a group picture, you could take a. If you're a smaller enough business, you could take a picture of your employees and their families, right? If it's just you and owning the business can be just you and your family, like, why do we not connect on a human level? And you can do this with your clients, too, but definitely with your referral sources, right? Of, like, connecting with them and doing, like, the family Christmas card or the employee Christmas card, like, hey, I do business with.

With.

With people, not with a logo, not with a company name. So when I sit down and I walk people through, like, what is it that once we know who your referral sources are, then we kind of back into, like, well, what do they need? Right? And a lot of times they just want to be thanked and acknowledged. And so sometimes it's just doing things like the Wonder Woman water bottle, like the family Christmas card, like the random thank you card that just gives them a moment to pause and remember you and be like, wow, Bill really cares about me and really takes good care of me. And at the same time, we're also planting referral seeds where we're being able to say, hey, I just wanted to take a minute and thank you. In the last six months, you've referred me so and so, so and so and so and so, right? Well, obviously the most, you know, obvious referral seat to plan is the use of the word referral. It's not the only one I teach. But, you know, just taking a minute and thanking someone for who they referred you for the first five, six, six, seven months of the, of the year. Right. Like that in and of itself is a chance to plant a seed and to acknowledge them and thank them. And so when we think about what we're building, what I'm not really building these like secretive crazy touch points, what people are typically hiring me for is, yes, we're going to build the system, we're going to build the plan. It's the language piece that is really the secret sauce. And then I'm going to show you how to put it in to some level of systemization because I know you're busy and I know you'll forget and I know most people are lazy and procrastinate. So how do we have a system work for us that'll remind us to do it? And it's the execution and the consistency of execution, which is where this actually works and where it actually produces results. Like, you know, I had a CPA who went through it and they got like 20 referrals in three months and they were like, I've totally been focusing on the wrong people. I'm like, yeah, until you know the data, right, so you can identify your referral sources. You may very well have been right. Or it's, you know, other companies that are like, we've just never tracked this information. Now we're actually able to know who we should be taking care of and who we should be spending time with. Right. Versus just winging it, so to speak.

I do hear something in the language there of acknowledging them and we're not putting it out to people. So when I think about being visible out there, right. I'm trying to always be that generous, helpful person that I aspire to be and to hold true to that. So that shows up and people are willing and able to refer. And I try to be helpful even if it ends up not being a fit so that the referrer feels good about having referred somebody to me. And I try to say thank you to them. I don't say like, thank you for referring that thing to me in that way. I'll say something more like thank you for connecting us.

Or.

I'm just thinking how this applies directly to me. But I don't really make an attempt to track it. I just do it in the moment and I don't think about who refers the most? Of course, I'm as a coach, just applying for myself. I'm thinking about the business that's different for most of our listeners and clients. But systematizing it into a larger thing when you're dealing with a much larger base of businesses is a different thing because they're probably super referrers that people have.

Yeah, I mean, definitely. And I think it also sometimes depends, you know, like how well respected you are. Right. I think about sales professionals who are like, who do this for a living at larger companies. You know, the reality it is, is a lot of times they get to take their referrals, the referral sources with them right when they move to the next company. So it does have a lot to do with those relationships and why they're so important for people to have. But yes, to your point though, the one hang up I see most people get is exactly what you said. I don't really track it and I teach in my program not, not just to track who's referring you, but let's also track your close ratio. So I can tell you like, and I'll just pick something in the past so that it doesn't offend any of my referral sources today. But you know, I can tell you when I was a business and productivity coach, I had two people who referred me, you know, double digits every year. Like over 10 people were referred to me every year for a couple years in a row. And one I had like a 30% close ratio with and one I had like over 80%. So you can imagine when the one that I had an 80% close ratio with, like I knew was all in terms of how she set me up. And that has a lot to do with your ability to close it quickly. Doesn't mean I'm not saying you can't close it, but quickly is all in how you're set up up. So when a referral came from her, I was like all over it because I knew I was probably going to close them because she done most of the heavy lifting for me and it wasn't anything I taught her right now over time, she would learn my methodology and she'd be like, oh, I was doing really good. And I was like, yes, you were. So you can teach and you can train your referral sources, particularly for getting terrible quality. You can definitely have a conversation with them to get better quality, but. And you can do it in a way that doesn't make them defenses defensive or feel like they've got to qualify everybody before they send them to you. But you know, it's looking at it, knowing I do want you tracking because I do want you to be able to identify your close ratios. But even within larger companies, you know, a lot of times I find that some people are getting referrals and some people aren't, some salespeople are, some sales people aren't. I'm like, you know, before we go off and try to build anything, let's first identify what that those people who are receiving referrals are doing. Well, what are they doing different from everybody else? It's that kind of 80, 20 rule. Right. So, so looking at it from that perspective, usually those people are tracking in some level and they know who their referral sources are and they have a mentality and a mindset of making sure they're taking care of those referral sources.

Yeah, yeah, I'm totally not tracking that. And it seems like it could be something that we put in our CRM and do that. And I think many of our listeners would be interested in identifying and tracking that much more specifically so they could roll up at the end and see who it is and then getting programmatic about the thoughtful, appropriate thank yous to those folks. And the last piece, probably the, the language is in particular, probably one of the subtle areas of your book and your work where they, they refine the way that they thank them. What comes to mind though, as I think about that for all of our clients, is identifying, honing in on who your core customer is and what your brand promises are. So if I let people know that I'm looking for really, you know, people with huge goals, not modest growth goals, then who you'll refer to me is more likely to fit that profile. And if I, and if I let people know that, you know, the main thing that we do is deliver the scaling up tools, the Rockefeller habits, then they kind of know what they're referring for. So that when people come and contact me, it's because they're like, hey, I've got really big goals and I'm looking for this. And you know that that's already down a couple of points into what we're doing. Right. It's, it's very efficient.

Yeah. Because they're showing up as really your ideal client.

Yeah.

And so here's the thing. Clients know what you do best. And so obviously referrals that come from clients, well, maybe not your C clients, but at least your A and your B clients. Right. Referrals that come from them are typically very strong in that regards because they're speaking to the success themselves. Right. They're saying, I worked with Bill or I worked with Bill and his team and this is what happened and this is how great it was. And. Right. And they're being able to really, you know, actualize exactly what it looks like to work with you. So obviously, referral client. Clients from referrals are great, but they're not the only source. The other largest source. I tell people there's typically like four types of sources. So the other source are centers of influence. So they're actually people in the world, in the business world. Let's just looking at it from your perspective, right? There are people probably in the business world, they know exactly what you do. Maybe not because they've ever been a client. Right. But you've spent time with them. Right. Or you know that they've talked to them about knowing what you do. They're not like, oh, yeah, he is this awesome marketing person. No, no, that's not what I do. Right. Like, it's that idea of they know what you do, but they don't do what you do. So there's no competitive overlap. And they come across your ideal client. So when I was a business and productivity coach, I was an excellent referral source to a certain bookkeeper. Because I'm here, I am talking to small business owners and most of them are still trying to figure out how to get their QuickBooks to work. And I'm like, oh, it's called outsource. Like, you can't scale if you're still fiddling with QuickBooks. Like you're going to outsource that thing. Right. And so I did a lot of outsourcing to CPAs and bookkeepers in that regard. And so from that case. Yeah. So client centers of influence. Yes. You can get referrals from family member and friends. Right. I always tell folks whether you want them in your referral plan is up to you. It's if your mom's only ever going to refer you one person, then and why would you put her on your plan? And she's probably gonna refer you regardless because, you know, you're her child. And then strangers, it's the strangers who refer you. Like, I've had people refer me and they're like, well, so and so told me about you. I'm like, who is so and so? Like, you're like, I don't even know who that person is. But sometimes, you know, our reputation does. Right. It is permeating out there in the world. And there are people who've heard about us or know about us that have never actually worked with us, that can still speak right. About our abilities, but we don't know who they are. So we can't put them as part of our referral sources because it's really hard to cultivate a relationship with a stranger because by definition, they're a stranger. So I tell folks, focus on your clients, focus on your centers of influence and figuring out those that actually can refer you, who can come across your ideal client. Who are those clients who love working with you who are also well connected and more verbal. Right. In some cases, they're better connectors. Those are the people that we focus on if they're not referring us. And then we use a process in language to get them to the place of thinking about us from a referral perspective. But to your point about the language, that really is my secret sauce. That really is what I like to call my superpower in terms of the language we use. That sounds very normal. Absolutely. Fundamentally allows you to be authentic because I do not believe in manipulation. And at the same time, it actually works because it's moving you into their subconsciousness of how they think about you, and they're going to think about you from a referral perspective.

So how do I. Using myself as an example, then? How do I have people do that more naturally? Or how do I do that more naturally with people?

Okay, so a great example that I can give you is. Let's just take one that everybody can use probably tomorrow, right after they listen to this episode. They can probably put it into effect tomorrow. And it's outlined in my book as well. Obviously, my process is five steps and the book, there are five. There's like 12 chapters in the book, but five of those chapters break down each step. So this language piece is. There's a chapter on it as well on planting referral seeds. But here's the thing. When you. I don't know how often you probably network now, but when you think about anybody who's listening that actually does more networking. Right. Than not. When you're asked the how's business? Question, how do you typically answer?

Really great. Yeah, it's going well.

It's going great. We're either telling the truth or we're lying. Right? I mean, let's be honest.

One or the other.

Yeah. We're saying it's really great. It's awesome. Oh, we're exploding. Like, this is great. And maybe for being honest, we're like, it sucks, right? So. But the truth is we miss an opportunity to Plant a referral seed. Now, here's my disclaimer. If you're having a conversation with someone you're meeting for the first time or you don't really have a relationship with, but you kind of know them, I'm going to show you how to plant a referral seed. But please remember what happens when we plant a seed in the ground and then we walk away and do nothing to it. Okay? So I'm not, I'm not guaranteeing any referral. Referral explosion from planting this particular seed, but if you find someone who's interested in your response, there's a way to cult like, now we have a chance to cultivate a relationship there. And I tell once you can get that first referral, drop them into my plan and let's get more referrals from them. Right? But when someone says, how's business? Instead of saying, it's great, I would prefer you say something to the effect. And please, I'm going to use an example. But don't lie. Like it actually has to be true. So if someone said, hey, Stacy, how's business? And I'd be like, oh, thanks for asking. It's great. I actually just onboarded three new VIP clients last week and all three of them were actually referred to me, period. And then I shut up, right? And then I see, is that going to trigger anything in you? Like, oh, they were referred to you or something to that effect will start the conversation, Right? And if it doesn't, I planted the seed and I'm going to ask them how businesses, and they're going to tell me it's great. And then we're going to figure out if we have anything else to talk about. But I've planted a seed. I just don't know if it's going to go anywhere yet. Now, with existing referral sources, we know when we plant seeds and we're doing it consistently following that plan, we're going to be watering those seeds and tending to the garden. Right. With in this example I'm giving you, it's a networking example. It's the how do you answer how's business Question. Like, just plant the seed and see what happens. Like, some people will come back and tell me, I have the best conversations with people when I tell them, oh, yeah, the first quarter, you know, I brought on like 20 new clients. It was awesome. It was really great. Is that a majority of those were actually referred to me. It is amazing how much easier it is, right, to do work with people who already trust you when they walk in the door. Don't you find that to be the case? And then start the dialogue. And if the dialogue starts, there's a chance that you've planted a seed. Now, again, like I said, the easiest seed to plant is the use of the word referral. It's not the only one, of course. And I like to teach the subtleties to the members in my Growth by Referrals program. But. But it is the easiest to use, and it's the one that most people can figure out once they now understand the concept behind it. But like I said, there's a whole chapter in the book that's about it. I think it's chapter 10. You know what I should know. I don't know. I'm sorry.

All right, well, I think we've given folks enough stuff to begin thinking about how to develop this more. I know right away I'm like, wow. Most of my business, and certainly my best business comes from. From referral. It comes from people who either know me, attended a workshop, or worked with me before. It's that kind of thing. They're like, this worked for me. It'll work for you. It's that kind of referral. And. But it's not everybody. And so when it does, it does. When it happens that way, it does seem like that would be useful to do. And I don't ever say. I'm like, oh, we started this great new client and that kind of thing. And, oh, where'd they come from? Or how'd you get them? And I'm like, well. And then I don't say, well, somebody in this group referred me.

Right. You're just missing the opportunity.

Yeah. And I think that. That I could see how that's planting a seed, because then, consciously or not, they may think, is there anybody I could refer you to? God, I like Bill, too. Or. Or they're thinking, you suck. I'd never refer anybody to you.

Well, we hope they're not thinking that. They're probably not talking.

No, no, no. Look, not everybody. I mean, I'm. I'm being dramatic. Funny in the extreme, but. But it could. You know, you could always have people who are like, wow, can't imagine how anybody refer you. I've certainly thought that about people sometimes.

Well, okay, let's be fair. I've thought about. I've thought that about other people, too. So I know people have thought that about me. I mean, it's funny people have thought that about me.

They're like, God, working with you is poison.

They're like, it's so hard. I mean, I once. When I was a business coach, I once had a client tell somebody else. The only. Only reason why I found out is because this person came back and told me, and then they hired me, which I thought was hilarious, but I had a client tell someone else. Working with Stacy is, like, running down the street naked, like, she's going to expose everything and make you uncomfortable. And I know people see me and they're like, oh, she's like this young girl. I just have good genes. I'm actually way older than I look, and I. I'm okay with that. But people like, oh, she's like this young girl, and she's gonna be, like, so sweet, and she's Southern. And then I, like, hit him right across the face. And they were like, whoa. Because I'm extremely direct. It's why a lot of people actually end up hiring me, because they're like, it's direct. You're going to tell us like it is. And we like that about you. But let's be honest, Bill, there are some people who cannot handle that. And that's okay. We need to repel those that can't handle.

Yeah, no, no. You're total. I was watching a show the other day with my wife about British customs. I'm like, oh, yeah, I gave a workshop in. Outside of London, and it really didn't go well.

Oh, no.

And I've done them in other countries that went really well and other countries that didn't go really well. And sometimes it's because I was off someday or I screwed something up, but sometimes it's just that fit thing. So my workshops and delivery are candid. They're open, they're fairly raw and authentic. And I engage people often deeply. And some places that just. Just not at all comfortable. And I did that in the UK and it was like, whoa, way too much. That's way too friendly. That's way outside our bounds of social comfort.

You need to be more reserved.

Yes, more reserved. I had a similar kind of experience in Saudi Arabia, even though they knew kind of that's who I was, and they were bringing me there to do that work, you know, just. It probably wasn't ever going to be a fit. There's probably no way to do that. And maybe the person bringing me thought that. But, you know, it was just a couple of examples where it was like that. Other places where they're really polite, but it doesn't, like, quite go anywhere.

And I think sometimes we don't know that. Right. Like, we don't always think that until, like, the reflection, like, back on it. It's really interesting. So in my Growth by Referrals program, we have students represented in six different countries. And I always wanted my program to be, you know, to attract people from an international stage. So we've got students in Australia, New Zealand, uk, Germany, Canada, and of course, a huge heavy base in the United States. And so for my. For me, it's like, oh, so this would work for Canadians. Oh, so it's almost as if someone buying it and saying this really works is like validation to, okay, this would work in your culture. And then I was a part of a global referral summit, and they. It's like 30 people they picked on. Who do we, you know, who do referral training? And there was 30 of us. And some big names people would recognize, like Bobberg and others were on part of this global referral summit. And they said they picked me because what I teach crosses cultural boundaries. And they were in India that were, like, setting everything up. And until they told me that, I wasn't actually. I'm gonna be honest, I wasn't actually sure. I think it does. But again, you know, that's just Americans thinking. We know.

I think they do in their own way. And there's code, there's language, there's styles, and sometimes you happen accidentally. You know, there are countries where I did phenomenally well in Thailand, and I did okay in Malaysia, but every place has its own kind of vibe to it. So let's just direct, folks. We've. We've filled people's time with a pretty long show, actually. StacyBrownRandall.com is where to go. Read more about Stacey, get her book and like all that. Start to work on your own referral program. Staceybrownrandall.com and of course, we bring a new show like this with a new expert every week. It's something to do with scaling, growing your business. And you find all that@scalingcoach.com all the back catalog. I mean, there's more than three years of shows there now with something on virtually any topic that you could go punch that in and see what shows up. Scalingcoach.com of course, you can like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share it with somebody that you think could use this, right? Refer this show to somebody in the turn, make a difference for them, be a contributor in their world. I think is super useful. Thanks again, Stacy. Talk to everybody next week. Special thanks to the original growth guru, Vern Harnish. For creating this whole world of scaling up that we live and thrive in. This show is produced by Crystal Carson. Audio production is done at podfly Productions with audio editing by Albert Burge, show notes by Ann Kodina, and proofreading by Tim McGowan. If you got some value out of the show, share it. Pass it along to somebody else. Let us know the parts that you love. Drop us line info scalingcoach.com if we can help you find a coach in your own area or who's a fit for your particular challenge, let us know as well. Info scalingcoach.com thanks again for listening. Keep scaling up.

Jam.