163: Catherine Hoke and Tom Williams — Finding Compassion in Those Who Have Done Wrong

Well, I've waited a little while to record an intro to this show. This is not a normal show, not a normal conversation. It affected me very deeply. I first heard about this program at a dinner with some YPO members from around the world up in the California wine country people. Then around me, I started to hear conversations about a program where CEOs, entrepreneurs and investors went to work with prisoners in maximum security prisons. And they were deeply moved and affected by the experience. So I said, yes, I'm in. I'm into and interested in boundary pushing, deeply moving experiences. And I went. We recorded this show after the end of the first of two days of working with a group of incarcerated men who had felony convictions in a maximum security prison in the high desert of Susanville, California. This has given me a great deal of insight and reflection on my relationship to human beings and what they're capable of and how they can surprise us. Since one of the hardest things that we all have to do and deal with is deal with human beings. I think this show is well worth a listen. You'll hear power and passion because I'm right in the middle of two days of a very intense experience here with the creators and the woman who created the program and one of the executives in charge of leading it and running it. It's now grown. It has surprising results. Listen in for this incredibly powerful and reflective show. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. So this is a kind of an unusual show. On the show with me today will be a couple people. We're going to start off with Tom, William. Tom and I are up in Susanville, California, near the High desert Correctional Facility, the California State Prison. And we've just spent the day, a remarkable day, with a group of entrepreneurs, coaches, CEOs, investors, working with like serious inmates in the prison there on developing them in a really extraordinary program. It goes by hustle 2.0 today. So that's what we're talking about. Tom, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for being here.

Tom is. He's the chair of the Pelican Bay Volunteer alliance and it's his sort of money making gig. He's an investor in tech, media and healthcare companies around the world. He got involved in the Defy program or predecessor to this was known. And Tom's been here with a group of us today. I don't know how many people we had.

I'd say about 40. 40 or 50.

Yeah. And so we found out about it through a group, an Alumni group around the EO birthing of Giants program that's today called the Gathering of Titans where Kat Hoch came and spoke. And we should have Kat joining us in a few minutes. And so that's. And my wife called me and said, oh, we're going go to this thing. It's going to be awesome. You're going to love it. And I am like, oh, we're going to go to prison. We're going to coach, mentor and work with these inmates all day. And I wasn't so scared about that, but I was really anxious about one all the rules and the idea just being inside any locked, serious environment like that. Who are the people? I figured we'd be with good people, like people who there was hope for people. And I was just overwhelmed by the humanity of the things. I mean, people told me they did horrific things like that they committed crimes in their past that were just. But when I looked into their eyes and when I talked to them, I saw such like goodness and warmth and hunger and humility and these people. And they spoke honestly about the things with regret, with. I mean it was real. It was real and raw.

I can imagine that your listeners right now are thinking, you know, they must be high on some California supply right now. Did you notice how in the exercise of step to the line or in the life maps that you heard? I mean, part of this program really helps volunteers understand that the men here that while they have these labels for the crimes that they committed, as you understand their stories, how they were raised, they're raised in poverty. They're raised from families who, you know, you can understand that while each person that you know that we met today took responsibility and accountability for the crimes that they committed, I think the real thing here is that these men are not their crimes.

The crime is something they did.

Correct. And that the more that you understand where they're coming from, it's easier. It's not to say that everybody will have compassion, but it's easier to find compassion when you understand that most people grew up in extreme poverty. They grew up in gang infested neighborhoods. They grew up hearing gunshots. They grew up seeing their family members killed. In some cases, they grew up themselves. Victims, survivors of abuse, not just physical, but sexual. And so a lot of these young men took to the streets because their own families could not protect them. They could not provide for them. So what happens is they meet these men on the streets who are involved with gangs and they say, we're here for you. You know, it's in the same way. And look at me. I've got money, I've got power, I've got respect. These are all the things that all of us as humans want, right? And so what they're taught, because they don't know any better, is this is the way if you follow my path, you will succeed. Meanwhile, these gang leaders care about their supposed family. They care about. They see them as pawns. Exactly. And so I think what ends up happening is by the time that we. That the men arrive at our, you know, at our programs, they've already done, as you've heard today, sometimes decades, but several years of hard time.

So the first guy I talked to today started talking about the first abuse he experienced was before he could. Really consciously. He was like a year and a half old. That's when it began. And he had a steady stream of horrific events that happened to him in his family, home, and community environment right from the beginning. Babysitters, parents, violence in the neighborhood, family members, siblings, like, just unbelievable things, one after another after another. And then as a middle schooler and a teenager, he starts to get involved in. In some of the stuff. It just was what he grew up and he learned.

Right.

And. And. And then he committed some crimes. I forget. I talked to so many people today. I forget what his particular thing was. But he's like, I did some terrible things, and I've been paying. And he'd been in for more than a decade, and he had more time to go and stuff. But I'm talking to someone who's thoughtful and caring, and, you know, like, I'm like, this. This human being is. His life's not over. This is like an opening chapter to. But he has the opportunity to write the rest of his life story.

Yes, absolutely. And I think that, you know, because the state of Calvin.

Thinking, feeling, caring, you know, soulful and regretful of his things, but also, like, I just was, like, overwhelmed.

Yeah, absolutely.

And.

And, you know, because the state of California has imposed such hard time, you know, you met many men who. Who've been sentenced to 20 years plus who didn't actually commit murder. So, you know, the unfairness of a lot of how sentencing has worked in this state and this country has put people in for a long time. And then what we're not exposed to here is in order to survive in prison, you know, there is not. I mean, I believe we all have choice, but when. The way that, you know, prison gangs work, you know, to choose to not obey an order can get you killed.

Right. Fight, survive.

Absolutely.

So you commit subsequent crimes. Correct. In prison, then you do more time, then you into her solitary.

Yeah. And I think it's important for your listeners to understand the evolution of corrections in this state because the R rehabilitation was only added 10 years ago.

Yeah.

So it used to be that the state said, lock them up, throw away the key until the sentence is over. And then they started realizing that that wasn't working and that there was overcrowding and. And it just wasn't doing anything. And so they added the R. And so what ends up happening in each, you know, for us is programming. When they complete a program that's recognized by CDCR that gives them positive points. If they were to commit an offense, that adds points. So we're on a level four yard, which is the highest level of security, which means that you've. You've created more points for yourself.

Right.

But at Pelican Bay, we work from level four yards like this all the way down to level two. And what's incredible is men who were on the most intense level 4 yards of pelican Bay have stepped themselves down all the way to level two. So this programming and programming like it for the men that really are investing in themselves, they're hungry for programs like this because it allows them the opportunity to get out of violent environments. Once you're in less secure environments, the incidences of violence are so much lower because everybody's worked so hard to get there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, so I was a little surprised as we began the program today that there were a number of people with very, very long sentences, were very life without possibility of parole type sentences, and not a lot of them, but a few of them. And then I came to understand over the course of the day that some of those people are old timers. They're elders, they're leaders, and they create an example. They spread good words. So getting some of those people involved in a program that develops and reminds them of their humanity has positive ripple effect to the whole population.

Yeah, yeah. So the longer that you've survived in prison, especially, you know, a maximum or a supermax, the more credibility that you earn amongst your, you know, the people in your yard. And what's been incredible is a number of the people that have kind of put their hands up early in our programs are people that have done, you know, a long time. They've. They've earned, you know, a lot of respect for surviving and so on. And they have, you know, if they can show up with life sentences, then the youngster who actually can get out in two years. Why would he not. Why would he not give it a shot?

Right. About how many people were in the.

Program today between our volunteers and, you know. And Mavericks.

No, the Mavericks.

Yeah, the Mavericks. There were. Well, if there were, it was 2 to 1. It was a perfect 2 to 1 ratio. So I think, you know, close to 100. You know, close to 100 of those. Because if we have 40 to 50 volunteers, double that.

Right. So we had 80 to 100 Maverick participants in there, and then we had the balance of us. And sometimes we have another class tomorrow that we're doing, and I think we're going to get a few more people that were flight delayed that will get in here today. So we traveled in. I mean, the volunteers came from all over, from other countries, from Canada, from across the US and so on to. To be there because it's such a powerful and engaging program and it's been getting a lot of attention around with these folks developing because of its effectiveness. Right.

Yes.

Tell me about how you got involved in the program and how you learned about it, and maybe you can weave in some of the.

So I was at an event that was talking about how to, you know, rebuild cities in America. And it was kind of a set of constituents that included, you know, elected officials, policy people, entrepreneurs, nonprofits and so on. It's a very interesting mix of people, highly curated event. And, you know, if you knew a million of these, as I have, and you're at the dinner that night, and the rubber chicken dinner, as I like to call it, and you're at one of the round tables and I'm listening to the woman next to me tell a very engrossing story. But then the MC says, well, we're acknowledging, you know, a few different organizations tonight for their great work. And Unilever was, was, you know, recognized. And. And then here's a nonprofit recognition, and it was for Defy. And what I heard was that the first thing that struck me was America's recidivism rate. Once you have a criminal record, once you spend 70% or something, it's over 70%. And so, you know, you're just aghast at that number. And I think we all, whether we know the exact number or not, we're aware of the fact that mass incarceration is a big problem in this country. But what to do about it? You know, it seems such an intractable problem. And when I was introduced, when I heard the program being introduced, I heard that, you know, DEFY had this incredibly low recidivism rate of the 2,000 men and women that had received programming during their time. And what she told the story was, is most of the guys that end up in prison were. Were had entrepreneurial instincts. They knew the hustle. They were willing to work for themselves and take responsibility. They were just selling the wrong product. They were selling an illegal product. Right. All the right skills, the wrong product. And so the thing that really got me was, what if we could transform that hustle? And she talked about this entrepreneur coaching, and she provided some concrete case studies. So I went up to her and I said, look, I don't know you, you don't know me, but I need to work for you. You know, what can I do? And she said, well, before anything, come and witness, you know, who these men are and what our work is. And she invited me to what ended up being our first trip to Pelican Bay in April of 2017. And quite like you showing up here, I had really no idea what to expect. And you know, even going through, you know, the. The process that we went through today to get into where we work is. Is a real mind bending activity because, you know, you're just awestruck by kind of the intensity of the place. And, you know, but then you're.

There's triple wire and sensing gunners, guard towers and gunners and electric fence. Yeah, I mean, it's serious. And you go through layers of stuff. This is a level four facility, right? And.

Yeah, yeah. And so. And then the Pelican Bay staff, the facility there where we started working was the supermax. So that's actually, you know, the highest of security for level four yards. And so the day that I went in there, I was quite immediately taken by several men that I had met. And as an investor and, you know, investing at the earliest stages and latest stages, you know, I'm having to make split seconds, sometimes not split second, but, you know, decisions on very, very little information that are highly consequential if I'm wrong. And so those same instincts to pick people allowed me to, you know, kind of pick the right people. And. Yeah, and these men that I met, you know, in April, I've had the great honor and privilege to see how programs like this take hold of not everybody. It's not like we're waving a magic wand and everybody suddenly transformed. No, we're offering them gifts, which if they are prepared, ready and willing and able to take those gifts. And really, that's exactly the right word. I describe it as climbing a ladder, you know, one rung at A time. And I've seen, I mean, first of all, we've seen not only men from the Pelican Bay supermax parole, but we've seen almost every one of them either not only just employed, but gainfully employed, appreciatively, I think that's the word I would use, is appreciatively employed. And by that I mean that their employers are saying these men are our model employees. And then we have a few men who have actually legitimately started their own businesses and are either self sufficient or very close to self sufficient from their own business income, which is incredible to see.

Well, yeah, so I heard businesses today that were, they wanted to start a food truck, they wanted to create a barber shop, they wanted to create a mobile hair extensions business. And then I heard people who just wanted to become a chef, who wanted jobs and that kind of thing, and who were still thinking about what might be entrepreneurial in nature, but as a whole range of things like that. And the most remarkable thing happened on our way in. I was coaching one of my teams. So folks on a listener you don't know, but folks in our world know that I'm a scaling coach and I coach a range of teams. And one of my teams that's been around has had this amazing new leader join the team. And this is a guy who was a former inmate in the California system and who was guilty and convicted and served time for serious drug crimes and went through a different program. But this team was like blown away by the difference he'd made impacting their team, leveling up rank and file members on their team, that they have a high turnover business in one of my clients as the seasonal nature of their business. And this guy had come in and he had this intense background. I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to this program tomorrow. And he's like, oh, it's really great. We have to connect. Let's get back together. And anyway, I'm struck by that. For the last two years, recruiting people has been an extraordinary challenge for companies across the country. But in any time, people is the hardest part of the equation. People are powerful, enigmatic, irregular, rational, like right, everything. And, and there's something to master about people, which is what I thought this was so relevant to have in a business. Why is it that all these entrepreneurs want to come out here and do this? Because we're reminded of what makes people extraordinary. Because we're reminded of our own humanity. Because we're, you know, like, it's just amazing. We're joined now With Kat Hoke, the founder of the program the Origin. And so Sharon, Kat. Hey. Who's joining? We've been wrapping up. So this show is a little fresher and raw than some. And I just want to thank you so much for having us all be part. We were all deeply moved by the experience of the day.

Thank you for coming to prison. Did you tell, did you tell them about your, your new move that you showcased?

No. There's a lot of.

Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry, Bill. I will not snitch you out. Snitches your stitches.

I, I'm famous for a lot of things. Picking great restaurants in towns. I've never been making huge rooms of people cry. Right. With coaching and speaking and things like that. And increasingly for the dancing. And I think that movement and speaking out and all these things are really powerful and yet we're so inhibited by them. This is a little bit like, I don't know where you're going to go with this, but talk to us about music and movement in the program. Well, where does that come from?

Clearly works before, before the guys, the mavericks are incarcerated men. Meet the volunteers. They're typically so terrified of you guys, of speaking to what they all refer to as like normal people or outside citizens or whatever because they've been locked up for so long. And you guys as first time visitors are typically so terrified as well. And so we have a party, we make it fun too to break the ice. And so we use movement and music and networking and all of these things to break down barriers. And then the other thing is that we are very blessed to be able to recruit some of the countries top investors and most successful CEOs who sometimes take themselves very seriously. And on the other side of that, we also have the privilege of working with some of the most influential gang members and gang leaders who take themselves very seriously. And so we use goofiness as a tactic to break down barriers so that then we can get to the heart of the matter as quickly as possible.

Well, it's genius. And I think like when I'm known for helping companies create their purpose statement for their company really, really fast. And one of the things I do is I make them walk. So I give them an assignment, I send them off in pairs and the movement makes a huge difference. And I had it on just by accident once, like, and I've started to see incorporating into different times, making people move in the afternoon. Sometimes we'll have people do stretching or yoga like things or whatever. And we have music on every break. And you did that way to, like, a whole other level. And it really did. It, like, connected us. And look, here's the thing that we're not saying also, the overwhelming number of people that we dealt with, and I would bet overall were African American and people of Hispanic origin. People of color were in there. Out of 80 folks or whatever, two would be described as Caucasian in that program right.

Today, that was definitely the case.

And yet on the other side, the volunteers, the CEO, investor, coach folks were overwhelmingly Caucasian in some flavor, right?

Yeah, it was interesting. Today we had less white mavericks than normal, and we had the most white volunteers that we've ever had.

It's quite. It's a lot more diverse.

We encourage a lot of diversity. But I think we. I was grateful to get to recruit from the GOT group and three groups. I did speaking engagements to three EO graduate groups in Boston. And I would say that those groups that I recruited from were quite white themselves. And so. You know what, though? It just worked out that way, and it's fine. And we want people to come, and we don't discriminate on skin color either way. And everyone has something great to offer.

Well, the thing that I was struck by, especially as we did the line exercise, where we step forward and back depending on the different life experiences and circumstances, you realize there are definitely things that separate us. And there are a lot of things, though, that are the same as people step. There were a lot of, like, childhood, early adult kinds of things that I'm like, oh, I had that happen. I did that. But I didn't get put in jail for that. When I had that happen, a cop told me, drive safely and go home. And, you know, things like that.

Right. Well, everyone in that room, pretty much everyone in that room is a maverick. We are all, whether we are wearing blue, incarcerated or not. Pretty much everyone in that room has been driven to extremes in their lives. And most people in that room were driven to extremes by some kind of pain. And so deep shared pain brings us all together. But choosing to become an entrepreneur and investor is a freak route. And we don't realize that sometimes when we only hang out in these circles. Right. But it'd be much easier to have an average job or career, to not choose a career where you really put yourselves out there. Similarly, our mavericks chose very dangerous, extreme lifestyles as well.

Mm. Some of them, it just seemed like they just. I mean, actually, most of the ones I talked to there, you could call it a choice, but it was not Very conscious. It was just the world they lived in. As my kids know. Room service, like the back of their hand. These. These kids, it's just like, oh, what happened? Like, my sibling got shot and my dad went to jail, and I, like. It's just. It was the family business.

That's exactly right. And just as for me, like, taking my SATs and going to college was a duh. Of course I was gonna do that. That's all I was raised to do. So these guys saw prison was a rite of passage. Prison was actually something that they didn't fear. Tougher sentencing doesn't.

Doesn't make a difference.

No. Going to prison is what almost every adult male in their communities. It's what they see doing. And that's why now the path that they're taking is so countercultural to what they were raised in, the environments. And it's part of why I have so much respect for them is because they have the courage to break legacies and to change things, and they want new patterns for their children and for their families. And even from behind bars, their voices are incredibly powerful. But when these men and the women that we serve, when they get released back into society, the impact that they have in. Tom here brought one of our guys from Pelican Bay back into prison just a year after his release, who's now running a business. And when they come back and speak about the impact that they're having on their communities, on their families, on their children, it's so inspiring to see them changing these patterns.

It's like the ops guy at one of my leadership teams who's just. Just really leveling up all of their teams because he's got. He's. He's been to places and through things that people aren't. And he. He not only is really rigorous and demanding of his team, but. But he also looks into their soul way more than everybody. One of the guys that I talked to today is like. He's like, I did so many terrible things. It just became normal to me. It just stopped even being bad. Like, I just. It just. He said. And I think now I can see the faces. I can think about the things, and I can't ever make that right, he said. But I've spent my entire adult life in here, and, like, I'll never get back those. What are supposed to be the best years of my life, he said. But I. But I want to get out, and I never want to see a place like this again. And I want to make a better ending, right? Like, to do something cool. I was just so like, oh, my God, what could we do to help you?

It is healthy that our men have remorse over their poor decisions. But we say this to them, and it's true for us, too. Not one of us can change our past. The past is the past. The men that we serve in Hustle 2.0 have made very bad decisions. Every one of them in that room has committed violent crime. They are not proud of those decisions. But as we saw today, every one of them is redeemable. They take ownership of their past. They're accountable. They want a better future. We as Americans say that this is a justice system where they serve their time. So who do we want coming back to society? 95% of them get released back to society. They're coming back.

They're learning to write resumes. They're learning to make business pitches. They're learning to create business ideas. I mean, they. We saw just a little piece of it.

They're getting a whole bunch of character development. They're getting reentry planning. They're getting family planning, relational skills, how to communicate, parenting skills, etiquette. They're learning about how to create social, positive, social impact. They're learning to have impact in prison while they're there and then build and restore bonds with their families when they get.

So you've launched three of these programs that are continuing. This is the third of the. Is that right?

This is the third organization that is.

The third organization that's doing this. And overall, our stats are above 75%. Recidivism, is that right?

In the country, in America, 77% of people are rearrested and go back behind bars within five years of release. The last program that I started called the Five Ventures, has a proven, validated, verified recidivism rate of less than 5%. A three year.

77 to less than 5.

Three years.

Yeah.

Working. Working with people who committed violent crime. We do not cherry pick. We have a 100% acceptance rate. Defy does, too. So we take anyone who applies. And when we go to a new prison, we tell the warden, put us on your worst yard with the most violence, because that's where we think we can make the greatest impact.

And what is it that you want to say?

Because, you know, the real thing that's being given to through this program is love.

Yeah.

And a belief in. In self, which comes through volunteers.

Yeah.

And that's why when you, you know, everybody's uncomfortable bragging. I think successful people don't like talking about their successes. For the most part. But this is where bragging is important because here's somebody that's sitting here who in many cases has had his family completely abandoned him because he broke the last straw of many, many straws. And so he's sitting there thinking, I'm irredeemable, I'm not worthy of any of this. And in comes all these volunteers from all over the place with all the success. And what they're thinking is why, why would these people. But all they then take away is they believe in me.

Yeah.

And those that continue to show up and as the program unfolds, you're just, you know, here on the first day.

Right.

Over the years of a year long program and that gets reinforced to them. And so suddenly that notion that I can, you know, I can't change my past, but I can change my future. And to the volunteers that show up, if I ever think about screwing up because I think I'm not worthy, I can't do it because those volunteers have invested so much. That's the volunteer experience.

Yeah. And what I want to add to what Tom just said is that.

I.

Have been doing this work for 15 years. I've now started programs that have graduated more than 6,000 incarcerated men, women and youth. And I've brought. The programs that I've started have brought 7,000 volunteers into prison from across the world. Before this, I did venture capital and private equity. And I appreciate a good ROI story and results. And what I would say is that the number one way to prevent and cure recidivism, people going back to prison is if these people can have a positive legal vision for themselves. And that starts with hope. Because prison is a place where people learn to survive on next to no hope. It's like they write themselves off after society writes them off. But when we come in there like today, they start to have the hope that it is possible and that they do matter. And when a man believes that about himself, then his actions get in line and his planning gets in line. And then they can gain the skills if they're afforded the opportunity at rehabilitation. And then everybody wins.

So their resumes, the kinds of jobs they want, they all seem plausible and reasonable. I did see that this is not a stretch to think about that. We certainly have to interrupt the choices. They need some new training. They need to be careful about their environment. There's a whole world of stuff like that. Here's the thing I want to tell our folks. I don't care about your politics. You could be a bleeding heart liberal you could be law and order, hardcore conservative, whatever it is. If you're an entrepreneur, a business leader who, which is the vast majority of our audience, and you've got to develop people and recruit people and understand people, I strongly invite you, encourage you to go do one of the volunteer days. Here you go, do this thing. You'll level up your people chops. You'll get an appreciation for humanity and connecting with people and commun. Communicating and this notion of I'm only good with certain kinds of people and I can't relate to other kinds of people, you'll disappear that in a day.

That's sometimes a little bit more of an excuse, right?

I mean, like, oh, I'm good with this kind. I'm not good with that kind. But like, if you have that going on, I think a lot of us do spend a day, come to one of your things and I'll give you the web address in just a minute. And you'll be altered whether you want to do it again and again forever or contribute to the program.

Come for a drive by.

Yeah. So, Kathryn Hoak, Tom Williams. The program is hustle 2.0 and you're going to find it at hustle20hustle20.com you go find all about it. I encourage everyone to, to find a date. Pick a date. Go do it. The folks here are CEOs, investors, coaches, like serious, hardcore, credible people in the world that we tend to look up to come out of here. And every single person today was deeply moved and altered by the things that we did and saw.

And if you want to, just shoot an email to volunteerhustle20.com then we'll get.

Back when we set up volunteerustle20.com okay, we'll put all that stuff in the show. Notes Kathryn Hogan. You can also read the book A Second Chance. For you, for me and for the rest of us, it's been fantastic. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thanks for coming.

All right, reminder to all of our listeners, we're back here every week with a new show on something to do with scaling up, getting your people strategy, execution, cash, decisions. Right. You'll find all the back catalog of shows and everything@scalingcoach.com scalingcoach.com thanks again for listening. We'll talk to everybody next week. Bye bye. Well, a big thanks to the creator of this whole mess, the World of Scaling up and the Rockefeller Habits, Verne Harnish. This show was produced by Lucy Summers. The audio production is done at Podfly Productions and edited by Albert Burge. The show notes are compiled by Ann Kodina and proofread by Tim McGowan. If you got value out of the show, please please share it and pass it along to somebody else right now. Then go ahead and like and subscribe. Give us a review wherever you get your podcast, whether it be itunes, Stitcher or wherever, we could use your review to build our following. You can also let us know what parts you loved and if you'd like to participate in any way or have a suggestion for us. Info scalingcoach.com is the email for all your feedback. Thanks again for listening and keep scaling up.

It.