177: Eleanor Beaton — Step Into the Spotlight With Power

All right. You fall into probably one of these two camps. You are either somebody who's really uncomfortable being a spokesperson, speaking up, speaking out on behalf of something, or you are somebody who loves to perform, but it's not always effective. This show is really for both of those situations. If you're a natural performer, speaker, how do you be more effective at it? What gives you access to that? And if, if you are really reluctant to do it, where is it that you, what, what would give you access to that that you know is important? How do you get better at that and good at that? So for either one, that's what this show's all about. Listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business Podcast. I'm your host and scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. I'm on the show. With me today is Eleanor Beaton. And Eleanor has like, I have a whole litany of accolades here I'm going to share with you. Then she'll tell you the story behind it. But she's an internationally recognized expert in women's leadership. She's an advisor to Growth Oriented Women. She's been the chair of the visiting Women's Executive Exchange program at Yale, and she sits on the board of directors for two Canadian VC orgs. She's been recognized in corporate excellence by Canada's Leadership as Canada's Leadership coach of the Year and is an entrepreneurial guru named the Guru by Ally Brown. She's also host and executive producer for a podcast, Fierce Feminine Leadership. That's awesome. And she's a former journalist for the cbc, Globe and Mail Canadian Business. She's a finalist for National Business Book of the Year, Canada's top book honor. She's won prizes for her journalistic work covering issues related to women in leadership and spoken at events around the world, including alongside First Lady Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. She lives in eastern Canada with her husband and two sons, 9 and 13. Yeah, in Hollywood.

You got it. Nice.

In and around Halifax, where it's begun to become fall now, Right.

Winter is coming, Bill.

Unlike here in Northern California where It's been like 95 all week and testing the limits of our air conditioning systems.

Your patience in power grid.

Yes. Well, you know, it's funny not far from here because we've had some massive, massive fires with extraordinary damage the last couple of years. Our electric utility is shutting off power. So there's, I read in the paper yesterday, there's a hundred, or I read online, there's no paper anymore. 146,000 people without power in Northern California because they're like, well, fire danger's high and our power grid's known to spark and start fire. So we're just going to shut it off. Like, how is that even acceptable?

Wow, that's catastrophic.

Yeah, just wide swaths of territory. They're just shutting down because, you know, at any moment something could spark and catch a fire. Like fix the grid.

Exactly. It's time already.

It shouldn't be. I mean, of course we have. That's a whole separate show. So we're going to dive into this topic. We're going to help people to become better spokespeople for their organizations today. Right. And you probably fall in one of two camps. I think probably you are like, I think most folks, men or women, and although you deal more with female leadership, but men or women struggle with discomfort in being in front on stage, that kind of thing. Some of us don't have that problem. We're verbally dominant. Right. Like assert ourselves, that hesitation whether or not we have anything to say or know what to say. And then there are like performer types and you know, if you're one of those, for those folks, we want you to actually be effective and not just be perceived as a spotlight hog. So whether you're totally comfortable or not at all comfortable being in front as a leader, whether you're the ultimate leader of the business or at any level, there's a time and a place for you to be a spokesperson and we want you to be more effective. So that's what our focus is. Welcome show Eleanor.

It's such a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, glad to have you on. So give us a little bit of the story. Right. I shared the accolades, but if you would tell us a little bit of the story of your background, how you came to work in this field, what it is that that motivates you.

So I started out my career in journalism actually, as you, as you mentioned. And so the work that I was doing there, I mean, it was fascinating. So I was covering fast growing companies. You know, I can remember being, you know, in my mid-20s interviewing Robert Herjavec, of course, who's now one of the investors on Shark's Tank. He was boarding his private jet. He was just made of money at the time and being, you know, totally freaked out and nervous, but you know, really covering fast growing companies, interviewing CEOs. And so that was like an MBA, if you will, an entrepreneurial MBA into what these high performing CEOs were doing that was making the difference to generate the results they were generating. So I was Doing a lot of that, covering fast growing companies. Definitely noted that there were not as many women entrepreneurs in those ranks. So really developed an interest in a keen, you know, desire to kind of explore what was it that was separating the fast growing women entrepreneurs from the rest of the pack. So that's where I started and I loved it. And it was really about collecting stories from other entrepreneurs, hearing what was working, what wasn't working, and then translating those stories to kind of share with a broader business audience. And there was such a difference between the entrepreneurs who could really tell a story, who could share the telling detail that translates transformed them into a media darling, helped build the value of their company. You know, I can remember doing an interview with this guy, Charles Chang. So he was a great entrepreneur. Founded a company called Vega Naturals out of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. It was, you know, it was a company, it was one of the first vegan protein powders. And so he, he's busting out, going door to door, you know, selling this stuff. He's growing his company. I interview him, you know, at all the different publications that I was working. And over the years, you know, the company just took off and he exited a couple years ago for 350 million USD cash. So, you know, amazing, amazing, you know, ride being a business journalist. And I was, you know, sitting around looking at all these entrepreneurs and I was like, you know, I am potentially as smart as these guys are. It's time for me to start a business. So I started a business in the field of communications consulting. And that quickly led to, you know, as I was advising politicians and CEOs and entrepreneurs, I started getting requests to come into their organizations to be doing, you know, advising with their internal teams, especially with their leaders. It wasn't something that I was accustomed to doing, but like any good consultant, I said, yes, I can do that. And actually developed a lot of expertise, you know, working with leadership teams, helping them be more effective spokespeople both externally, you know, and internally. And that as I was doing that work with leadership teams, that's when I really started to notice a real difference in terms of how the men and women leaders were showing up, the opportunities that they were having access to, whether that was how effective they were in pitching how effective they were in the corporate setting and elevating themselves and reaching senior positions. And so that's when I launched my business advising women leaders. So I would kind of characterize myself as somebody who is, who started out as an accidental entrepreneur and has really developed that passion to scale and to support other entrepreneurs to do that in the process.

That's interesting. I think. So you work more with female leaders, and I do think that this is more common among female leaders. But I know both men and women leaders who struggle with being comfortable and effective, being a spokesperson. And if you're a leader within a business at some level, whether you're out on TV or that kind of thing, or just speaking to internal groups, you've got to be willing to step up, speak out and be the voice for something, right?

Totally. I mean, it's, it's so critical that you're able to align people behind your vision, you know, and it's important internally, you know, I think, especially if you think about really growth oriented companies, let's say, you know, you are, you haven't yet, you know, gotten the round of funding that you need. You need to rally the team around you behind the vision, have them buy in, continuously remind them, you know, of where you're all headed. I think that, you know, that's one level of being willing to be in the spotlight. And of course, externally, you know, it's all about kind of what you're representing in the market. And you know, Bill, I would say like one of the, there's this great story about Madeleine Albright and of course, you know, she was the former U.S. ambassador to the United nations at this time.

All around. Badass.

All around, right? Like all around. And there's this great story. So she, so it's her first meeting at the unit, and of course, like all the big, like power just loves small rooms. And so it's not, she's not in the big room, she's in this small little room. And her plan going into this meeting is, look, I'm just gonna kind of, I'm not gonna speak too much. I'm going to walk into that room, I'm gonna take my seat, I'm gonna figure out what's going on, figure out what our strategy is going to be, and do a lot of listening. You know, I'm not here, I don't need to speak. And so she gets into the room and she's looking, you know, there's a small table and there's placards all around it instructing people where to sit. And so she goes up and she sees it's not actually her name, but it's the country. And she realizes in that moment she's like, I realized if I, if I were silent, if I didn't step into the spotlight and speak the voice of the United States, would have been silenced. And it's a great story. And, you know, if you're listening, you might. You might not be around that particular table, but, you know, for me, it's this constant reminder that when you step into a leadership role as a founder, it's not just who you are, but it's also what you represent. And that. That's one of the reasons why it's so critical to kind of work with that discomfort around the spotlight, which I.

Can understand, you know, so I think. So we talked at the outset that there's kind of two categories of people, right? There are people who are sort of natural performers who aren't afraid to speak up. They may or may not be effective, but their predisposition is to put on a show and to embrace the attention or seek the attention. Cultivate. Right? So there's that and then there's the people who are like, let me just contribute or whatever. And then. And I think that's the access. If you're not a natural performer, then the access for you is to be in service of the team or the cause. So the vision, the bhag, whatever it is of your company, that future that you are committed to, you have to speak up in service of that and. Or in service of your team, right?

Absolutely.

Depending on the environment. And that's your access. It's like, no, you're here for something thing. And then that's why you should find, at least at the right moment, the spotlight. And then I think it also makes a. So somebody who's just like, look at me, look at me, look at me. Can be tiresome because they're so hungry for that spotlight, that attention. But you're made better if in this environment, in this context of being a business leader, if you speak and tap into that strength from a place of being in service of the team or the vision, mission, the future of the business, Right?

Absolutely. It reminds me of. And sometimes actually, even if you're the entrepreneur who is totally comfortable being a spokesperson, but for you, your. Your role now is not just look at me, look at me, look at me. But again, it's. It's in service of the company and what it represents and the larger mission and vision and bhag. And you know, I think about a founder. Her name is Barb Stegman. She's the founder of a company called the Seven Virtues. And essentially, you know, so she, she kind of founded this perfume company and the. It's like a social enterprise, but. But very much a for profit, you know, social enterprise. So she, she, she goes to war torn countries, the company strikes, deals with farmers, purchases fair trade essential oils, makes, manufactures perfume and then sells it, you know, throughout North America. So, you know, really successful distribution through Sephora, all of that good stuff. And in the early days, you know, I can remember talking to her in the early days and she had an appearance on the Dragon Den, which is like Canada's version of Shark Tank. And she became one of the first, you know, women entrepreneurs from, you know, eastern Canada to land a deal. She gave an incredible, you know, emotional pitch, fabulous story about why she was, you know, creating this perfume. But in fact, you know, she was, you know, she was non stop leveraging public relations, media attention, publicity, social media attention for years. And I can remember having a conversation with her and being like, this is amazing. And how do you do it? You know, even for someone who's comfortable, how do you do it? And how do you show up every day, you know, and be in the spotlight? And she said, you know, it's all about keeping my eye on that larger mission. It's not about me, it's about where the company is going. And for a mission driven company, which I know some of your listeners are leading, it's about the service to that larger mission also. So I think that's going to help some people step into the spotlight and for others who are comfortable there, it's going to give them the resilience to stay there so they can really cultivate awareness around what the company's doing.

Yeah, I hear you did this beautifully. I have to prompt a lot of our guests and prepare with them to tell stories. Stories, tap into something and express something and that's a great place to go. I had coached a guy some years ago in a ed tech organization and he was so like, he had all of the like talking points of the stuff, but he wasn't being very effective. And I'm like, why don't you actually just tell the story how you got into this? And I think you illustrated that and it sounds like I forget the name already, but the head of the Seven Virtues Company, Barb Stegman. Barb Stegman was really effective at telling her story and where it came from and where it went and created a rich, evocative picture, right?

Absolutely. A rich, evocative picture that creates this emotional bond between an investor, between a customer, a stakeholder, a distributor and your company. And you know, the thing about stories which they, we are much more likely to remember them, they tap into that emotionally resonant part of us that actually drives, you know, can. Can drive a lot of decision making, you know, which we will then rationalize or back up, you know, or potentially overturn later. But, you know, it. It puts you in good, solid ground and I think for really excellent communicators and, and this is going to be, you know, critical for, for every founder out there. If you actually took the time to think through, okay, what are some of the key points that I want my company to make? And then can I create a catalog of stories? You know, I remember reading somewhere that Colin Powell, you know, after he did his thing as Secretary of State, I think it was he, you know, went on this big speaker circuit, you know, and he. And he would speak on different topics in different places. And someone was asking him, how do you do that? Like, how do you continuously show up, you know, make a great, you know, deliver an amazing, you know, message night after night with the kind of schedule that you have? And he said that stories were like beads on a necklace. And so once you have the beads, you can put them together in lots of different combinations, but the stories are what people will remember, and they're going to drive home kind of the points that you're making. So they are super powerful.

It's interesting that you mentioned that. I'm reminded my last business was a fashion jewelry line, and we had a breakthrough product that was like the bead jewelry, bracelets and necklaces, where you picked something that represented. So we had slide charms, and they were individual charms with gemstones, that thing. But each of them represented something and they let people put together, you know, a personal accessory that was. That told a story about them. So, like, oh, this is about me and my relationship, and this is about my kids or this is about my pet or my hobby or, like, they all represented different aspects of them and they told a whole story. Right?

Yeah. So powerful. So powerful.

And I think that that is an aspect as well. The symbols, the images that we use that we string together to tell a story and build a narrative of. So why are you in the business that you're in? Why do you even care about that? Right. All of that gives you the ammunition to stand up and step up and speak something. Why don't you share a little bit of your personal story? And I know that you. Well, you tell.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm totally fascinated by this topic, as you can see. As you can see. And I've got. I've got my own inventory of stories around, you know, visibility and, you know, cultivating stories. But you Know, so I grew up. So my mother is from the Fiji Islands. My father was Welsh. We moved to Canada when I was a kid. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm biracial. We moved to a small university town on the east coast of Canada. And at the time, you know, I can remember being a kid, my mother had this. This big, beautiful Afro. You know, my parents dropping me off at school and realizing for the first time that I was different, you know, that I looked different, that my parents were different. And so, you know, as I was growing up in this environment, there are a lot of great things about it, but I experienced a lot of racism as a kid. And it would always happen when I was. Was in the spotlight. And I, you know, when I think back, like, I did a lot to try to get in the spotlight. I mean, you read the accolades like I am out there doing my thing and have always been that person who did and it would get me into. That's when. That's when I would experience the most, you know, significant bullying when I was being seen. So. Right. And so what I think this again.

Happens for men and women. It's like, who do they think they are? Why is she standing out? Like, you know, and so there's an effort to crush that self expression.

Yeah. I mean, there's. It's so funny because, like, in New Zealand, they call it the tall Poppy syndrome. In, in the northeast Canada, the United States, they call it the lobster pot. You know, it's a very human, you know, experience. And for me, you know what? I. There's what happens to us, and then there's kind of what we make that mean. And I know there's some listeners, you know, who are not necessarily meaning makers, but I was a champion meaning maker. And what I made that mean was it's not safe in the spotlight. Right. So if you look at my career and my first business, it was all built around telling other people's stories, being behind the scenes, you know, and really, you know, avoiding being visible myself. Right. It was really difficult. And. And that is fine. From a straight up entrepreneurial perspective, I think that's okay. If you're running a business where you're looking for organic growth, we don't have a lot of those people listening to the show. But if you are getting into a situation where you want to turn on the jets, generate proactive growth, attract great people, galvanize people around your message, open up the market, all of that kind of stuff, I think it's. It's really critical that you Take a look at your relationship with the spotlight and do, you know, ask yourself the questions you need to ask to be comfortable being seen.

So there's a lot there. And let's unpack for a minute before we move on to the next story. I think that. So first of all, although you're kind to people to say that you're a meaning making machine, human beings are meaning making machines. Events happen around us and then we decide they're good or bad and we have a whole story and interpretation about them. And then we live our life from the relationship to the interpretation, not to the actual events. So the meaning that we add to them. So, you know, somebody walks out, somebody walks in, something happens, then we tell a story about it, we have a view that it's good or bad. And then we start interacting with the world from that place, from that experience. Right. As if the story is the reality, not just the core event, the interpretation, the whole thing. Right. So that's the first thing that I think is useful to do. And the way that you see the world, if you could start to separate what happened from the story that you tell about it and you develop some skill in that you have some power in formulating your interactions. But then there's a second thing that you said there, and that's that you can actually craft the narrative, create the story which speaks to telling something that serves your purpose, that drives for something that you care about. And that that story which you said earlier drives kind of the motivating and decision making place deep in the brain. We've had quite a few shows about the power of why and speaking to that purpose center. But then that drives the performance and action of others. So you can not simply describe your world, but create your world in the stories that you tell. Right. As a leader.

Exactly. And you know, and there are, and I have seen, you know, over my career just complete kings and queens of storytelling doing this. So I'll give you an example. There's this entrepreneur, he's kind of legendary in my neck of the woods, let's call him Joe. So he, as a for instance, so he grows up, you know, he's one of, one of 10 or 12 children. He leaves school at age, at grade six. His, his father, you know, was a, was like a, what do they call hairdressers for men. A barber that said he was a barber. Okay. So his dad was a barber, 10 kids. He leaves school in the, after the sixth grade and he becomes a truck driver once he gets old enough to kind of get his license. So he becomes a truck driver. And he just starts slowly and systematically building a trucking business, which becomes a large transportation and logistics business, which then goes on to purchase one of the most significant national carriers in the country. Then he goes on to continue sort of diversifying into, you know, nursing homes. And like, all of this, like, he is just an incredible entrepreneur, extremely wealthy, has made, you know, a huge impact in the community. And I can remember, you know, back in the day, I was working on a consulting project for a client, and I had to get in touch with this guy with Joe. And so I call him, you know, talk to his assistant, leave a message. And, you know, he calls me back. I get this. This voicemail that it's Joe calling from down in Cape Breton way. So I call him back and, you know, I'm talking to him and he. And he says something. He says, well, what would I know? I'm just a dumb truck driver. So what was so interesting about this is he takes a story. So he comes from humble beginnings, has a challenging upbringing, and he has cultivate. He's using his story now not to be something to get away from, but he actually used his story to position him as first in a very universal way, as very nonsense, threatening. Keep in mind that a lot of the growth of his business was fueled through acquisition. So he was using the power of his story, crafting the narrative to. To basically create a situation in which he was consistently being underestimated. Makes sense. Powerful strategy. I mean, you know, I, you know, I think that he had a. He really under. He was very well educated in how to leverage the power of his story to create an advantage. When he was sitting at tables with people who had much better education than him, were much smoother and more polished, he had to use his story to ultimately be his trump card.

I have a favorite old boss from very early in my career and work in Chicago. And this guy was from the south. And he talked about the stereotypes. You talked about being Fijian and mixed race in the great white North. And this guy was from the south. And he's like, well, the cool thing about the south is that everybody thinks you're stupid. In fact, although it's terrible to say, but it is really commonly true. If you affect a Southern drawl, any kind of a Southern accent of any variety, there is kind of a sort of a hillbilly, redneck, dumbing down thing that we get, especially if you're not from the south, so you're less susceptible. But up there in the north, in Chicago, that played well. So he would say, look, if I want people to underestimate me or negotiate or whatever, I just play it up a little bit, and they may not realize that I'm playing a game. Right. So he would amplify that aspect of that character when it suited him, because he realizes it may not be fair that we think of that. It may not be nice that there is a common view that way from north to south, that that's done. But it pervades even our popular culture, movies and stuff when they. They don't put someone on with. Unless they're really cunning. Right. That's the other character that comes out with a strong. So it's playing folk, but it also can often go that way. And that, I think, I hear also that here's this powerful business person, but he goes back to his roots. He connects with that in a way that's credible and authentic. He's like, look, I'm just a trucker or whatever. And that's disarming. And connects. Right.

Completely. And I think it sort of links us back to that sort of. Yes. Universal nature when we really allow ourselves to be seen. And it's a great. You know, and it's a great point that you're drawing out, because I think one of the objections that I'll hear sometimes, and this is both from people who are the performers who think that they don't have time to be visible and it's not necessary. And then also those who feel uncomfortable in the spotlight, and it's this idea that, look, I'm not in it for the attention, for the fame. Nobody's interested in my story, you know, in my upbringing, in my personal life. Nobody's interested in that stuff. And I would disagree. I think we are very interested in that stuff, you know, and it's. It's not a quest for fame. It's really that ability to connect with people and also to, you know, make sure that when it counts, your voice is heard and your. That you are duly noted. You know, I don't know if your listeners have seen the documentary that Netflix is promoting right now. It's called Inside Bill's Mind. And it's a sort of a limited series about Bill Gates.

Bill Gates? Yeah.

You might know him. You may have heard of.

You may have strong feelings about him.

Right. But there's this great moment where so, you know, Bill Gates has stepped down as CEO of Microsoft. He and Melinda have launched the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And this was very much something that they were doing as Partners, and they saw themselves as partners, and they were running it as partners. But shortly after its launch, all of the media attention is going toward Bill, and Melinda is just sort of seen as a sidekick. And so she talks about how she realized, because she. She was an extremely private person, did not want a public Persona, you know, was what felt very uncomfortable, you know, in the spotlight. And she realized, like, if she was going to be able to be effective as a leader, be taken seriously, be a strong negotiator, be seen as a partner, get, you know, get these initiatives that are so near and dear to her heart off the ground, she was going to need to have a stronger public Persona and be much more visible. And I loved when she talked about that, because it just underscores how important it is. Even if you have all the success and money in the world, you still need visibility.

Yeah, well. And like your money, you can spend that visibility on behalf of the things that you care about. Right. In service of the future of the enterprise, the future of your team, whatever it is that is motivating, driving to you.

Exactly.

I did a. So I won't surprise our listeners, right? But I've always been pretty comfortable speaking up and speaking out. I'm. I'm naturally verbal articulating stuff is comfortable for me, and I'm fairly dominant, so it's a natural thing. And yet I have had many times where I was ineffective, rejected in the voice and that kind of thing. And so years ago, I did a training program on leadership and speaking and that kind of thing. And one of the big exercises they had us do was to sort of take the lid off stuff. And I used to get negative marks or mediocre marks because I was sort of flat, not expressive. There wasn't a lot of range there. And like that. And so the. In the extra. Pretty simple. They would just give us a couple of poems to memorize, and then our job was to get on stage in front of hundreds of people and just hold nothing back. Like, deliver that poem, but with nothing held back. And so it was fortunate that I wasn't one of the first ones, because I got to see what doesn't work before I had to go do it. Right. And that's much easier to learn from others than your own pain. And who failed at this exercise again and again, like their life depended on it, because everything they'd been taught was now failing. Were the performers, the people with a background in performance who wanted to come give some rehearsed, prepared, structured kind of thing that had range but it was just like it was an act. Right. And the people that would pass were barely intelligible because remember, the objective is simply to leave nothing behind, to go 10 times louder or actually more so. By the time it came my turn, I just went up there and I just sort of exploded in this blistering Spitz laden thing. Right.

I wish I could have seen it complete blur.

But you know, that was an immediate pass. And anybody who did similar, and there were many, were passed because it was about giving yourself fully to something. And I had this insight, one that I had more range than I realized. Right. And then the other one is that that like wailing like a rock star going out there can either be a creepy sort of self serving thing or it can be something that's a gift that's in service of something else. The mission, the message, whatever it is that you're working on behalf of, that you're a servant leader to you give that performance for that. And then people want you to wail. Right. And they're wailing with you in some sense. Right. They're like I'm that you're giving voice to something that is deep within them, that wants to be expressed. And that is a truly kind of a generous performance.

Absolutely. And you know, it's this idea that it's a privilege and it's okay to be inspiring, to connect, you know, with people. And I think this is where actually, you know, it's interesting. They asked you to memorize a poem.

Yeah.

And this whole idea of memorizing this is where like having a story inventory, taking some time to kind of work through key messages is so important because you can string them together at the right time. And so in that moment you're not stressing over what do I say, you know what you're going to say. You have clarity about what you're going to say so you can be present and connect with people. And that is really critical. And it's so powerful in terms of building trust, establishing credibility, building likability among the right people. Likability is something we haven't talked about yet. The classic marketing speak is that you want to make sure that your business strikes the know like and trust factor, you know, with your market or with other people. But the core of course here is like with the right people. And I think that's something that's important too, that that's about leaving nothing back, unsuccessful censoring yourself, you know, in an intelligent way. But it's like the you, you can be galvanizing you Know, do it in, in a, in a, in a, in an intelligent way. But it is okay to be galvanizing. You will build a know like and trust factor with some people and you will alienate other people, and that's okay. You know, I think about Gwyneth Paltrow, who is, you know, we were joking. I mean, she could potentially be one of the most divisive women in America right now. You know, goop, worth about $250 million. It's also derided. There's so much vitriol directed at goop. But, you know, there's a great piece about her in the New York Times where she talks about monetizing vitriol. So, you know, we want to use that in a measured way. But it is, you know, I think it's important to understand if you're the spokesperson, it's not just about always this sort of professional veneer where you kind of melt into the backdrop. I think it's about finding your vivid presence.

Yeah. Not trying to be something from, look, this is who I am.

Right.

And because if you really try to make sure that you offend no one, then you create this kind of watered down, weird, inauthentic mix of mush of stuff I like to say, and you probably have a version of it. Just be responsible for who you are. So I walk on stage now or to the front of a room or whatever. I'm like, look, first of all, I'm from California. There may be a whole lot of things that come out. And I just gave a successful thing in the Middle East. I'm like, look, I'm from California. I'm wearing jeans. I'm going to swear. And I'm pretty liberal. And there are these things you may notice about them. It's not personal. You don't have to be that way. It's just who I am. I'm not going to sort of hold back, right. So I just try to acknowledge what's obvious to people instead of talking around it. Of course, I'm not one dimensional either. There's other aspects and layers like all of us have. But I think giving a little room for that range and permission is far better than in some of my corporate speaking where I was trying to make sure I didn't piss anyone off and embarrass my bosses or that kind of thing.

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting to the audiences. I can remember, you know, doing talks to very, very corporate audiences. So I'm thinking in particular, like, Wall street types and also a lot of work with like in house counsel. And what's so interesting is, you know, I would do these talks and it, the audience would be totally resting B face. Right. Like it was really right. So you're standing there, you're speaking and typically, you know, we would be speaking very often to entrepreneurial groups who are giving you a lot more facial feedback. Right. Totally different energy, different crowd. So then you go in front of a crowd like this. Is that kind of a, a piece of advice for people who may be doing this? You're getting a lot of resting B face. And in that moment, you know, it can be really easy to doubt these stories that you're telling. This you being yourself, you might think, my authentic self is clearly not welcome here. Well, the funny thing is I would get off the stage and I would have people come up to me resting, be faithful. In effect. That was the most inspiring thing I've ever heard. That really moved me. So what I mean to say is.

I'm very moved right now.

I'm very moved right now. Thank you so much. I'm never going to be the same again. So you just don't know. You've got to represent your, you've got to be authentic, represent your company, share that vision and do it unapologetically.

Yeah. Tell us one more story you shared with me about a woman in the automotive industry. Talk about that, I think.

Oh yeah. So for those, you know, especially those entrepreneurs who are, or founders who are coming out of a button down corporate setting like what we were just talking about, where there's lots of armor and resting B face and you know, resting B face is a gender neutral term, Bill. I'm not sure if you're aware of that, but it is.

So just to be clear, I've been accused of that.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So if you are, you know, if you are coming up through, I know that, you know, there's going to be founders who have been, you know, born entrepreneurs basically since they graduated high school. There's another class of entrepreneurs that we're seeing more and more who have come out of, you know, sort of button down corporate environments, launching their businesses as kind of a next chapter. And that's where I find some of this discomfort in the spotlight to be especially strong. You know, I can remember working with a client, so she came out of the automotive sector where it's all about uniformity, consistency, eliminating mistakes, you know, editing, you know, oddball features, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Just that's not how a great manufacturing industry is Made. And so she launches her firm and it is a consultancy. And you know, she's, she's growing the firm and it's moving, but it's not moving or scaling at the speed that she would like. And one of the core problems, you know, that we identified is she was really uncomfortable being the spokesperson for her company because of that. Her team was sort of wondering, like, hey, when are you going to like, we're waiting. We would love for you to step up and be the spokesperson of this company. It was a different, you know, it was a very, it was very different for her. Coming from a corporate environment where that kind of thing, in order for you to speak up and have a voice, you've got to clear it with legal, you've got to clear it with public affairs, you've got to clear it with the CEO. I mean, you're just not allowed to do that. And so for her, it was about really reconciling A, that she was allowed and B, that it was actually necessary for the growth of her company. So she did that, you know, really began to unlock a lot of very high profile opportunities, which in turn have really fed the growth of the company.

So when I did that and later when I coached others in doing that, you mentioned this earlier, one of the things that we did is really really craft the message tightly. So like we would craft a story, an origin story, message points, all of that kind of of thing really, really well. And then I would practice it as if it was a monologue and it would be like I would do it in front of the mirror in particular a whole bunch of times until I really had not only the content but the emotion I could connect with the guy looking back at me. So I had it down really cold and I always practiced it to the standard of you could wake me at three in the morning and I could deliver that effectively, which is like a high standard. Right from a cold sleep.

That's impressive. Yeah, you're making me nervous.

I still do that today with core messages. Right. I'm going to go out and tell. So I really, really hone it, practice it. But then in the moment I actually let go of the preparation. Like, who's the famous jazz. There's a jazz quote on this. Like practice, practice, practice, then get out there and wail. So let go all of the preparation and all of the rehearsing, trying to get it right and just perform. So now trust that the words come through you. The message is deeply ingrained and you're ready to rock. And then Be real and human and create it freshly in the moment. And probably some of the same words come back, but in a live fashion that isn't rehearsed and canned. So you've got the first level of the practices. You come across very rehearsed and canned. But the next level, the breakthrough is to a place where you are the message, it moves through you're used by it.

Yeah, well, it's like that acquisition of knowledge and skill. You move from unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent, which is a really hard place to be, you know, for performance to conscious competence. You've got to remember to do it. It sounds wooden. To unconscious competence, you know, and what you're talking about, you know, this idea of letting it go so you can perform. I mean, there's so much research that takes a look at the, you know, how, at what it, what really top level performance requires. And it is when you lose yourself, but you lose yourself skillfully when it's based on practice. Like, I just think about, you know, Steph Curry, Golden State, who were beaten, Bill, just to remind you, by the Toronto Raptors this year. Yeah, she forgot. Right. So that's what happened this year. And, but I, you know, still, even though, you know, I did not want them to win, I'm watching Steph Curry and just, you know, he can, he can score from anywhere on the floor. He needs. No, like you cannot. I mean, it's just, it's. He is a total freak of nature. And one of the things I love hearing about that is he consistently stays. He and Katie would stay after practice is gone, after everybody's left the gym, they're there shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting, getting that, you know, peak level performance sunk into their bones so they can do it effortlessly, you know, when called. And quite frankly, it wasn't good enough this year. But we shall see. They may, they may.

You take any top of class performer, right? A Steph Curry, Tiger Woods. I used to watch Michael Jordan and the Bulls when I lived in Chicago play against the Pistons in those days. And all of these top, peak performers, or even top fighter pilots, they will look at replays of themselves later to look at what there is to master and develop. So the message for me that is give up ever being finished, right. Until you're dropping that message, I'm going to keep rehearsing and honing that message until I'm so at home in it that it's immediately there and available for me.

But you know the thing that surprises me about that? Yeah, that not everybody does it because when you look at the very top performers in the NBA, they're doing that. What's, you know, what's the deal with their teammates? Like that, that level of discipline, preparation, so that, you know it cold at 3am right? And I think it comes back to this idea, like, why is it that a few companies make it, the rest don't. Sure, there's, you know, there's lots of different, you know, factors, but it's this idea of having the discipline to execute on some things that are important to execute on, like having your inventory of stories, having your core messages, you know, being willing to put in the time to do that so that when it. When it. You can show up when it counts.

So one of our company values is never finished. And I, sitting across from me, right behind my second monitor, there is a picture of myself, and it says, not finished yet. And it's the notion that, like, surrender to ever being done. We've talked a few times about this kind of practice and engaging in something. Whether you think of yourself as a good speaker or not a good speaker, as an effective voice and spokesperson or not. Like, there's something to work on and you should just get over or give up ever being done, working on it. Whether you're good, whatever your starting point is, you could just be at work on that until you're done breathing. Right.

Basically, you should be humble and not modest. So humble willingness, that beginner's mindset, never done. Willing to work, willing to continue working on it. Modesty is kind of for the birds. It's humility that counts.

Yeah, it's interesting. Well, so recapping a little bit, right, that we've got to connect to other people. Although we have all this fancy media available today, it's still the story and the message of a particular human being. As leaders in businesses, you've got to be effective at communicating that, whether you're comfortable with it or not. We want to get you comfortable. We want to have you be more effective. And that might mean not watering it down to the point that you're speaking to everyone, not pleasing everyone, that you're speaking to that core customer, that audience that you're really trying to connect with, not the offend, no one kind of an audience. And then to make that message in service of something, it's not you being a performer or. Or an ego or a demand for attention. It's you performing or speaking on behalf of the company's future. The mission, the vision, the bhag, the team itself that kind of thing. That's the place to tap into, whether you're comfortable or not. That gives you a more effective message, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

If you want to find out more or connect with Eleanor, go to Eleanor Beaton. Of course we'll put the link in the show notes, but it's Eleanor Beaton. B e a T O n dot com. You've got a book coming out in the spring on why women don't want power.

Yes, I do.

That's awesome. It's going to be riveting, right? The show Fierce Feminine leadership. Right?

You got it. You got it.

Awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show. Reminder to all our listeners, we're back here again next week with another show and another thing in the world of Scaling up. We've got 170 plus of these episodes out there now. So whatever you want to know about people, strategy, execution, cash or the leadership required to scale your company, go search for something at our website, scalingcoach.com where you'll find free downloads of all those, all the show notes, all the tools, the special offers, that kind of stuff. And I'll even give you a copy of the Scaling up book for free if you just pay the shipping and handling. So all that scalingcoach.com thanks again, Eleanor. We'll talk to everybody again next week. Once again, big thanks to the original growth guru, the creator of All Things Scaling up and the Rockefeller Habits, Vern Harnish. The show is produced by Lucy Summers. Audio production is done at Podfly Productions and audio edited by Albert Burge. The show notes are compiled by Ian Kodina and then proofread by Tim McGowan. If you love the show, please share it with somebody else right now. Go ahead. We also appreciate it if you give us a review. Tell us what part. Share that with the world. That helps to bring our show to more people and give us the visibility we hunger and crave for. And then you can also like it and subscribe it wherever you get your podcast or go to scalingcoach.com we love to hear back from you, your comments, the parts you love, things you want more or less of. Send us an email to infocalingcoach.com thanks again for listening. Keep Scaling Up.