184: Building Stronger Customer Connections

Well, we've got more technology than ever before to connect us from our mobile phones to our video conferencing to our social media, our Slack channels, we got it all. More email than you can ever answer in your whole lifetime. And yet we're less and less connected. This show is all about how to connect and the relationship economy and what actually it takes to make a difference, to connect with people, how you do it, how you change your culture to be that. Listen in. Hello and welcome again to the Scaling Up Business podcast. I'm your host and friendly neighborhood scaling coach, Bill Gallagher. On the show with me today, John De Julius from Cleveland, Ohio. Right.

Hey, Bill. Yep, I'm here in snowy Snowington, Ohio. Yes.

Yeah, that's awesome because, well, it's getting to be very fall. I see very much fall colors outside my window here in Northern California and it's very foggy. We're just sort of through our, our, our fire season headed into the rains will start any, any day now. Oh, so you just were a speaker at our Scaling Up Summits. We have the best speakers and you are highly, highly rated. You may have been the best rated of our speakers. I haven't seen the figures, but you were really well received. And guys, our audience should know that John is an authority, really a world class authority on customer service. And he consults, he speaks, he's dealt a lot with it. And then he's got a new book out, the relationship Economy that we're going to talk about today. And his approach to customer service has been used by Ritz Carlton, Lexus, Starbucks, Nordstrom. I mean, these are companies that are really, really well known, their customer connections. Right. And they're really interested in working on it. So he has got three successful business. The John Roberts Spa, we'll talk a little bit about is an upscale chain of salons. Right? 20 salons.

No, no, no, five.

Yeah, five. And about a top 20 salon in America kind of thing. And he also has the De Julius Group, which does consult in the world of service. And then he's got another business, nonprofit, Believe in Dreams, that helps make dreams come true for deserving children. And I think it's really cool and interesting and your talk was great and I'm really glad to have you on the show today. Welcome.

Thank you, Bill. Great to be with you and with your audience.

Yeah. Well, so this is, I think, a thing that really matters a great deal. We live in what is increasingly a service information kind of an economy. Not the same sort of maker world that we once were. Especially in more of first world Western. And a lot of our listeners are in North America where this is really, really critical and yet we often do a terrible job at it. My favorite is the recording when I call up. Your call is important to us. No, it isn't. My call was important. You'd have answered it instead of a machine.

Congrats.

So I do like to practice what we preach. We, we, our phones are answered live by a service called Call Ruby that we featured before on. But I love, especially since my clients are C suite people, we ought to be able to pick up the phone and, and talk to them.

And Ruby's well known. They're well known. Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're tops in the industry. Good for you.

Well, it's, you know, it's relatively expensive, but really compared to the kind of work I do and who I work with. So call Ruby, mention scaling coach, mention me and I think you get some kind of deal. We have some special affiliate thing with them. So let's talk about you though. How did you become interested in this? Give us your background, tell us, you know, the growth of salon and how your interest in service developed and how it's evolved to this place that you're on today. Before we get into the book.

Yeah. So about 27 years ago, me and my wife opened a very little 900 square foot hair salon. And you know, we were one of many. You could, if you had a halfway decent arm, you can throw in any direction and hit, you know, a bunch of salons up and down our street like you probably have on any busy strip in any big city. But, but we wanted to differentiate ourselves. So we had no money, no customers, no employees, but we knew we could provide a world class customer experience. And all of a sudden it just started growing and growing and growing. And as a result of the growth in the early to mid-90s, people just started asking me to speak first locally, chambers of commerce and stuff. I was flattered and was doing it more as you know, get the word out about John Roberts Spa. But every time I spoke, two or three people would come up and say, hey, do you do this for businesses? And I'd say, yeah, I guess.

So many businesses are born, right?

Right. I wish I could tell you I had this grand vision, but it was all accidents. And so started speaking and then I was predominantly a speaker in the beauty industry and at large shows until about 2002, my first book came out and you know, pretty much overnight that took me from a salon Owner that spoke, you know, a half a dozen times a year in the beauty industry to a speaker that owned some salons and haven't really been in the day to day operation of the salon. Still own them, but since 2002 and then started getting hired by real companies like the Ritz Carlton and Chick Fil A's and Nordstrom's of the world and was learning more than I was probably teaching them. And then over the next five years, we grew from a speaking customer service speaking company to a consulting company. And now that's all we do. We just focus on helping companies become the brand customers can't live without. And we like to help make price irrelevant. Like Ruby's doing with you.

Yeah. Where you're willing to pay something different for a totally different kind of something that's, that's dramatically, significantly different.

Right, right. You go anywhere and get it less expensive. Right. Than what you're paying Ruby. But you know, as, you know, as we all find out, many times the cheaper you go, the more it costs you.

Yeah. And you know, we used to have one of those over the, over the Internet VoIP phone systems with a cloud based auto attendant and it said push one for this and push one for that. And then it was fancy because we're kind of, you know, one of these new distributed teams and my assistant lives a couple hours away and I live here. And then we have people that we work with and then bookkeeping is about an hour away. And so everybody had like different extensions that connect to their mobile phones and but you know, it just, I like it. It made me crazy and I heard about them and I switched to them and I think it's really worthwhile. The amount of service that I get relative to the number of calls is just awesome.

So that's the definition of making price irrelevant. Making price irrelevant doesn't mean that you can double your fees or even raise them 50% and not lose existing or potential customers. But what it does mean is based on the experience your brand consistently delivers, your customers have no idea what the competition charges because they're not out price shopping you. So they don't know how you compare to your competition.

Yeah. Well, I think about, let's go back to the hair thing for a minute as you started to share the story. I was thinking, I remember the first sort of experience that I had in my early 20s. And you know, as a kid I went to like a barber shop. Right. And, and then as I got a little older, I went to a little bit fancier places As a teen, I became more, you know, self conscious about the look and the cut and that kind of thing. But in the 80s and in my 20s, I, I went to this one shop that my friend said, oh, you should go here instead of the, you know, the like clip and you know, hatchet kind of barbershop. And I remember that I was so excited. So I'm like 20, 21 and I go in this place and they, they offer me a glass of wine. Well, already that's like a huge plus. And then they welcome. And of course they give the really great massage and they seem to know you. And you know, I never made that kind of thing choice before, but then as I've gone on, I've become very loyal to the successive people that have cut my hair and have only left them reluctantly when they like moved away or retired or did things like that. Because I've gone to people who knew who I was, what I liked, how I liked it cut. They gave, you know, like the, like the shampoo, head massage thing as it went, and they welcomed me with whatever and I, you know, I just felt known and taken care of there.

And now you just defined the relationship economy. My newest book, I mean that's, that's really what it is. Where the primary currency is the emotional connections made with customers, employees and vendors that, that makes price irrelevant.

Yeah, and that's, you know, as, you.

Know and as all your listeners know, so many companies are getting away from that and you know, listen, the technology is not the enemy. I love technology and there's great use for it in our businesses. But using it to eliminate the human experience is. That is what we need to avoid.

Well, I got really excited when social media emerged because I thought, wow, look, I'm connecting with all these old friends and things like that. And it's true, I did. Except the connections were so shallow and so not really connected. I was at least peripherally aware of where they were and where they were up to. And there were a couple of exceptions that busted out of that where were actually connected. But when it stayed at that, that physical technology level, there wasn't any connection. Right. I didn't actually know what they were up to. And you know, I just saw where they had dinner where their last.

And that is true. I mean, you know, connect, connections and connecting are two totally different things. And I love social media for that. I love to see my old buddy from high school who's living on the west coast, you know, just had, you know, his first grandchild or you know, Whatever it is, that's cool. And listen, you know, if it wasn't for social media, I wouldn't have ever heard or talked to him again. So it is great for that. But it does. I mean, you know, social isolation is not a millennial thing that we like to bang on the millennials. I mean, every generation has, as a result of devices and digital revolution, has less real relationships, have less friendships. And they say a lack of social relationships is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. I mean, it's that unhealthy and we have to be careful with it.

I think it's that intersection, like just knowing something about someone doesn't leave us connected. It leaves me aware of, of something going on. But until I reach out and talk to you and we're not actually connecting, right? There's not relationship being fostered. It's just an awareness and it may even be inaccurate. Right?

Yeah, no, no, you're 100% right. Learning about people, learning that you have a 22 year old and that is what. Finding out what really are people's hot buttons and using that information in a genuine way is where true long lasting relationships come from.

So our focus is on customer service, but we're actually going to touch on how this matters to your employee engagement as well. Before we get into that, why don't we tell a few more stories? Because I think that always helps to illustrate it rather than diving into the principles. Talk first, maybe about your work with Starbucks.

Yeah, so Starbucks, you know, was doing something that I'm sure every listener is doing and it, you know, they were growing too fast. And nothing will ruin your customer experience faster than rapid growth. And that's painful. I mean, you know, but it's happened to us right where, you know, when we started, we were so choosy and picky about who we allowed to join our team. And we might interview 10, 20 people to find that perfect person. Well, you know, then you have all these opportunities and demand is high and you know, you need 25 people and you know, now you're hiring, you know, the first 25 that you can, you know, get. And you know, you start compromising and taking business that maybe isn't in your sweet spot. And you know, that's, it's so seductive. And you kid yourself that you know why you can do those things. And you wake up one day and you don't have the culture, you don't have the team bought into the vision and you didn't filter the way you wanted and you've taken on Some customers that weren't right fit. And Starbucks was guilty of that by their own admission. And they were growing too fast, so they needed to take a step back. They were in trouble. I mean they were in serious trouble. If you ever read Howard Schultz's book Onward, it's like a drama series of just like, how is he going to make it till tomorrow? And so first thing we did was you came in and we helped them. What we do with most of our clients is create a day in the life of their customer. Because the biggest disconnect in almost every business is our customer facing employee is not the customer. Right at the Ritz Carlton, the kid that's parking your car, your Maserati or your Audi or whatever you might be driving, that kid's, he's driving nothing even close to that. My consultants working with CEOs have never been a CEO. My hairdressers are. The average age is probably 25, 26. The average age of our guest is a 40 to 55 year old female professional. It doesn't mean we change who we hire, but we got to help people understand what their customer is going through and their struggles and where our presence, attention and expertise can come in and save their day and be exactly what they need. We help them create a day in the life of a Starbucks customer. And then the next thing we did was we helped them recreate their customer service vision statement and that's their compass, that's their North Star. So it's on the inside of every green apron in every Starbucks in the world. And it's not for the customer to see it, it's only for the employee to see and be reminded what he or she has to do every time she interacts with a Starbucks customer.

Interesting. So before or as they put it on, they can see what that is, they're reminded of it.

Absolutely. And it's also visited in their pre shift huddles because there's a service vision, then there's three pillars to it and then there nevers and always. So one of those things is touched on every day in their pre shift huddle. Listen, Craig Russell, the VP of Global Coffee at Starbucks, taught me this. He said there's no ribbon cutting ceremony to being world class. You never arrive. It's just like, you know, did you brush your teeth this morning? Did you get an exercise in? Well, great. Well, you're not done, you know, until tomorrow or until brushing your teeth until later today. But it's something that you have to attack every single day. And so that's why in those pre shift huddles, you're always visiting that service vision, the nevers, and always the plight of a customer. So we're always present and we have empathy and compassion for the people that we're serving.

I remember once I was learning a new skill and I watched somebody well beyond me, my coach, teacher at the time, doing the same thing, and I saw him fumble with it. I'm like, oh. And I suddenly had this insight that I was never going to be done, that I would always be at work on learning something, getting better at it, even if I thought that we would never be handled. And that was a very liberating thought. And I came up with this thing that today I say is one of our company values is never finished. And it's the idea that I'll just be at work on something until the day that I die. And that's fairly inspiring to me because it gives up having to ever arrive at anything and just enjoy the work and embrace what's next like that.

I want to be so much better today than I was last year and so much better next year than I was today. Right. And you know, to the point where, you know, you know, I spoke at scaling up, you know, five years ago. Right. And you know, I'm thinking, oh my God, like, I feel like I owe everyone that attended, you know, money back because, you know, I think I'm so much smarter today than I was five years ago. Now, hopefully that's how I feel next year. And I think that's where we always got to be. And it's that stupid old corny quote. That is so true. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. I would think by 55 I'd know it all. And God, I just realized I think I probably know less than 5%. There is.

Yeah. I'm also 55 and I'm humbled by what I know and what I don't know. Today I'm more relaxed about it though, like, well, I'm never going to be done. So let's just figure out what's next.

Absolutely.

So talk to us then about Worldwide Express. They were doing a lot and struggling with some stuff. Share that story.

Yeah, Worldwide Express is a great story. So they were growing really fast, but what they couldn't do was they couldn't outgrow their attrition. So Worldwide Express is a shipping company, a third party shipping company. And, you know, they were growing at something, you know, like 15% a year. But their attrition was Was like right around the same thing. So you know, they had, they couldn't outgrow their attrition. Why people were leaving, you know, and some were leaving, you know, for, for, you know, different reasons. But a lot were leaving because the customer service wasn't, you know, so good and if you're not the best, you better be the cheapest. And they didn't want to get in price wars so they chose to get an experience war. So when they hired us, their sales was 80 million and their attrition rate was at 19%. And they just couldn't outgrow. I mean you'd have to grow 20, 25, 30% to have positive comp sales from 19% attrition. So over the course of three years, their sales, well, their attrition went from 19% to 3% and their sales went from 80 to 120. Then they sold the company, which was great for them. And there was a lot of things why they did that. But they really, Jim Bennett, their CEO and president just drew a line in the sand and said, we are going to be known for world class customer service. And when you have that kind of executive sponsorship that this isn't flavor of the month program of the year or management by best seller, the employees know that they either better get on or get off. This wasn't going away.

What did they actually do? What did you discover? What did they do? What changed?

They followed our methodology. They had the typical sales paradigm where sales is out there, maybe over, promising, saying, we can do that, yeah, we could do that, we could do that. And they get you to sign and then. And I don't think sales was meaning to, you know, lie. They just thought, yeah, what you're asking we can do maybe without checking with customer service and customer support if that was realistic. And so you had silos and it was customer service against sales. And, and we had to bring them in and work together and we had to make them understand who their customer was. And the old day in the life of a customer, showing them a video, creating a video of what their shippers, the people that were depending on them and how their business was dependent on Worldwide Express created the service vision. It also started with their employee culture. You know, what happens on the inside is going to happen on the outside. So we really worked hard and they were really committed to creating a world class internal culture where both vertical leadership down but also horizontal, that the people that they were bringing aboard and that they were playing nice. And that again was the different departments and another Big one that happens in almost every business we come in contact with is headquarters. Headquarters. Sometimes we expect operations in our stores and our locations in our field to be world class. But sometimes when you deal with headquarters and you're calling in about a paycheck or technical support or it or whatever it may be, headquarters can treat its own like they're an interruption in their business. And you know, that's, that's, you know, that has to start right there ahead.

Well, the attitude is typically, well, you work for us, right?

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's the opposite. You know, the reason why we have HR is because we have, you know, 800 employees and that's your customers, HR, marketing. And I'm not picking on, but it's just the nature of the evolution of hq. You know, they can't do their job unless headquarters has it up and running and is supporting them in a very positive way.

So the book is the Relationship Economy. Tell us a little bit about what was the idea of the book? How has it evolved? Share with us a little bit about the book.

Yeah, it's building stronger customer connections in a digital world. And today's illiterate are those who have an inability to make a meaningful connection with others. And it just. Listen, we live in the touchscreen age and that's not a generational thing. We have grandparents on social media and we have 5 year olds who have an iPad in their hands 24, 7. And this has just led to serious, serious reduction in social skills. We are relationshiply disadvantaged today as a society because of the digital age, the decline in people skills. Too many companies are creating high tech no touch experiences. 40% of employees work for someone that's younger and companies just don't have relationship building training. This can sound like personal issues with people, but you know, make no mistake about it, the lack of social skills our society has is the problem of business leaders to solve. They're not getting this taught in school, they're not getting it taught at home. And we can't skip this generation of workforce and the next one's, you know, probably going to be worse. So we have found that the best companies are teaching, you know, relationship building skills that you know, to us and probably a lot of our listeners is common sense, but it's not common sense to the younger generation.

Well, I think it's infecting back the others because I see even people in my generation who continue to have a text exchange with people as things kind of heat up or get complicated. And I'm like, you don't know what they're thinking. You're interpreting what's being typed there, but you. You don't actually know what their emotional state is. And because there's not enough cues there. And no, no amount of emojis are going to solve that. What you could hear with your ear if you called them up or if you were face to face. Right.

And you're right. And so we, like, we have a never that if. If it can't be a positive response. So if. If Bill Gallagher emails us, you know, anything, can the podcast, you know, up an hour to different day, whatever. If we can't say yes, we have to call them because you can't hear empathy and compassion electronically.

That's really good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even, like, you know, another always is. We always. You can never have a conference call. We always have to have like, Zoom or Skype. And, you know, there's several reasons for that. Right. Voice. You're just talking to someone. It's a voice, you know. You know, you can't see expressions. And so when you get someone on a zoom, you know, now I see the picture of your 22 year old behind you. I see a picture of, you know, a beach and your family. I'm like, oh, Bill, where is that? You know, we just got back from Maui. I see your degree. You know, I'm seeing all this. This customer intelligence on you, and I'm seeing that you're a really nice guy. But honest, honest to God, the real reason why I have to be on a Zoom call is if I'm not, you know, my phone starts blowing up, I'll look at it, you know, and I'll see that it's my son asking me something he's asked me 600 times I've said no to, and I start responding to it. And you might be telling me about how, you know, your grandmother just passed away. And I'm like, oh, that's good, Bill. That's great. You know, and so it keeps me honest. It keeps me focused and engaged.

Yeah. Balancing those things and picking up on all those little side things. Well, that I think we're missing a lot. I have a couple clients who in the last quarter saw a hit in their sales in one or more areas. And I'm like, all right, well, I can tell you. So first I asked a few questions, and it was clear that they didn't actually know what was going on. I'm like, well, it's really simple. You have to go out and you have to go meet Folks. So we introduced the 4Q question approach. We role played that for a minute, and then we sent them out and said, everybody, get at least a few of these in and go talk to people. Hear what's going on. Maybe there's a competitor out there that's eating your lunch, or, you know, there's something that's going on and you don't actually know because you don't know what's going on with your people and your clients.

And they have no. You're 100% right.

Yeah. Makes a huge difference. I think the same thing's true with our. Our staff as well. And if you're a leader in the business, which the vast majority of our folks are, or you're a business owner, which is a substantial portion of our listeners as well, you don't necessarily. I mean, people have filters and barriers for what they tell you and when and how they tell you stuff, and you're busy. And I think we're as guilty of not really knowing what's going on with our people. People as anyone, and probably more so. And then you're like, how do I get more out of my people? Well, who are your people? What do they want? What's going on with them?

Right, right. And, you know, one of my favorite quotes is the currency for millennials is purpose. And, you know, our generation loves to diss on the millennials, but we forget that. That's. That's. That's, you know, we raised them. And I like millennials, and I think they've taught us to be better leaders, because what millennials aren't willing to do is trade, you know, hours for dollars. But I have over a hundred millennials working for me, and they are the best workforce, provided that, you know, you tie the vision and purpose to their jobs and then they're willing to bust it, but you just can't explain. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And we've covered that a lot of times. I'm sure we'll cover it more, the why of the work and get back in there. But there is a connection there to the business. So you've got an acronym in the book. Ford, Right?

Yep.

And it's not about the cars. Right. Talk to us about that.

Yeah. So I love asking people, audiences, you know, who's really strong at building an instant rapport with a total stranger, and everyone's hands go up, and I say, well, I don't believe you. You got to prove it to me. Just because you met someone at Starbucks this morning or at a social last night, and you spent 15, 30 minutes talking to them doesn't mean you built a rapport. You could have been talking about yourself that whole time, and that's a challenge. We are all genetically coded to be preoccupied about ourselves. It's my son that got in trouble. It's my flight that was delayed. It's my client that's threatening to fire us. And that's hard to turn off. I say anytime you have an interaction with someone, be it for three minutes or 30 minutes, if you built a rapport, you should know two or more things of their Ford F, O, R D family. You know, are they married? Do they have kids? How old are their kids? The O stands for occupation. What do they do? What's their title? How long they've been doing it? The R is for recreation. That's one of people's hottest buttons, right? They're runners, they love dogs, they do hot yoga four mornings a week, they coach little league. And then the D stands for dreams. You know, what's on their bucket list? What's their dream vacation? What's their encore career? And, you know, when you focus on learning that, it stays off yourself. And, you know, Ford is to each of us our own. Ford is our hot buttons. It's what gets us talking really fast. And it's just a great technique. If you meet any of my sons, they know I'm going to ask them after a conversation, you know, tell me about Mr. Gallagher's Ford. And it just keeps them off of their, you know, just talking about themselves and being investigative reporters.

Yeah. It's okay to be excited about yourself and to share what you're up to. I'm certainly guilty of that. But. But it takes practice and effort for many of us, especially somebody like me, to remember to ask and to go. To put your focus on other. On someone else and what they're doing. A few people, I think, are naturally good at that and find everything out, but most of us are pretty self absorbed by nature and we need to develop habits to go looking out to what people care about and who they are and like that, right?

Oh, no, 100%, I need it. You know, and, you know, it's even like, you know, you could steal someone's thunder. And I've done this so many times. When I was doing research for the book and I read this example, I was like, oh, my God, I've done that countless times. And it was with good intentions. Right. So, meaning, you know, let's say you have an employee and, you know, she was on vacation last week and you go up to her and you say, nicole, what you do for your vacation? And she might say, oh, I went to, you know, Disney World or Walt Disney World. And she's so excited, you know, it's her first time. And you're like, oh, my God, I love Disney. We own a house in Orlando. And you know, and thinking that you're making a connection of something in common, when really you just stole her thunder. Because what is she going to tell someone that owns a house in Disney, you know, versus shutting up and just saying, nicole, tell me, where'd you stay? What parks did you go to? Did your kids love it? And not stealing that thunder. So just being more aware, not asking questions because you're dying to answer them yourself. You know, things like that.

My, my friends who listen will tell that I do that about on the hour. I'm like, oh, yeah, I did that once. And especially if you've had a big life and you've done a lot of things in a lot of places, and you'll want to chime in and you'll think you're relating. I always think I am. I'm like, oh, I'm sharing something. No, I'm not.

I did some. There's another conversation. Never. It's in my book. And again, it's gonna really show you who I am. And I'm embarrassed of this, but, you know, it says, you know, don't. Don't share your accolades. Right. Make someone, you know, if, if. Make them ask you. But we were at dinner one time and at the bar, we like to eat at the bar. Just, you know, it's our preference, better service. But you also, you meet people and met a really nice couple, and we're talking to them all night. When we get up, you know, we say, oh, it was great. You know, talking, and we introduce ourselves. And you know, the gentleman, you know, says, oh, John D. Julius, didn't you write a book? And like an idiot, I said, I've written five.

Yeah.

As I said it, I was like, oh, my God. And I looked at my fiance and she confirmed that, yeah, I was an ass right there. It's like, you know, and it was just. Oh, if I could add that moment back, right? Or, you know, have you ever run a marathon? No, I've written. I've ran 20 now I haven't. But I'm saying it's the same type of thing. You don't need to over share there, you know, let them find out on their own.

Yeah, I know. I do that all the time. In fact, work that kind of thing in. I did it just the other day. I'm like, okay, I've done 45 of these triathlon and marathon events. I was like, oh, my God, right?

You're a Jack Daly, huh?

Jack? Way beyond me. And I'm fatter now, which is especially ironic because I'm a little overweight right now. I haven't done one in a couple of years. Right.

There's your motivation.

It is funny that we naturally all do that and pulling back and resisting the temptation to say, oh, yeah, I did that. And even then to commit the second sin of, like, one upping them.

Right, Right. And, you know, it's all this just takes. You know, it's something that, you know, the research also, you know, Stephen Covey has a famous quote that people don't listen with the intent of understanding. They listen with the intent of replying. And that's so true. Right. And scientists studied the human brain and found that it took the average brain 0.6 seconds to formulate a response to something said to it. A minimum of 0.6 seconds. And then they studied hundreds, thousands of conversations and found the average time between the gap between people talking was 0.6 seconds. And, you know, that's crazy to think about that. We're responding in one third the time our brains will allow us to formulate a response, which obviously means, you know, I have the answer long before you're done talking. I'm just waiting for you to come up for breath. Right. And, you know, to slow down, listen, let the other person be heard. Don't step over them, don't finish their sentence. And these are all critical listening, fierce listening skills that we have to work on.

You know, I think I can. I can see moments this week alone where I did that that I like. I wish I could reach out and take back. But you can't. You're human. And people forgive us, even though we're obnoxious about it. And we all do it in different ways to different degrees. But learning to spot it and rein it in, I think can make a huge difference and then turn it back around. Tell me more about that. Explore and connect beyond.

Yeah. There's a great myth about listening. The myth is a great listener is a sponge and just shuts up and just absorbs and says a couple ahas every now and then, and they say, that's not being a good listener. A great listener is a trampoline. And like you said, it asks clarifying questions. Really? Why? What made you tell me more about that and heightening the energy and going deeper in the area. And if you don't ask two to three follow up questions, odds are you weren't really listening to the original answer.

Yeah, you didn't care. Well, I've had many variations of this, but one comes to mind right now. A CEO a couple of years ago who's like, I just don't know how to get my people more engaged in their jobs. I mean, they're here, they say they want to be here. I think they're good at what they do. And I really feel like there's a lot more they could give. And I don't know how to engage them. I'm like, well, what do they want? I don't know, more money, you know, And I'm like, maybe, you know, I mean, that's an easy answer. Sure. Given any other choice, like more is better than less where money is concerned. But what else? What really matters? Them? What do they care about? What's going on? What would engage them? He didn't know. So I said, well, give me an hour or two here. I'm going to go around and talk to a few people. Let me see what I can find out. And so I spent some time, I went around the senior team and just had a few quick conversations with people. I came back and I said, okay, who is getting ready to start a family? He kind of knew that one. I'm like, okay, good. He wasn't sure, but he thought, you know, I'm like, okay, who wants to buy their first house? No clue. Who's never had an international vacation but is dying to do one? Who wants to go back to school. Didn't know all of these things. I'm like, okay, those are the people and what they care about and what will engage them. You want to connect their performance to what they are and help them get what they want.

And you'll get your engagement 100% right. I mean, we do the Ford test with leadership exactly like you're saying. So, you know, we'll get leaders, you know, and then we'll get the list of their direct reports and we'll say, you know, you know, Bill, VP of Sales, you know, here you got to fill for. Here's the, you know, 15 salesmen that they report to you. You got to tell me they're Ford and occupation doesn't count because you know what they do and you know, people struggle with that. And I've struggled with it, you know, you know, I have an executive assistant, she's been working for me for four years. She's married. She has a boy. I forget. I think it's a boy or is it a girl? You know, and it's like, shame on us. I mean, you know, you can't expect your employees to go out and collect forward and build a relationship if we're not doing it, you know, at home. And being able to give someone, you know, recognize them in a personalized way, giving them a gift certificate to their favorite restaurant, you know, knowing their favorite flowers, you know, whatever that may be. When they get that type of personalized experience, they want to deliver that.

Yeah. Makes a huge difference. The relationships are not with customers. Their customers are internal and external. Right. All of the people are the business partners. Partners, your vendors, your. Your landlord. The. The people that work with you, the. The customers that. That come to you, the people that refer to you, the people nearby in your business neighborhood, whatever that might be. There are all these people. And actually having relationships and connecting with people can make such a huge difference and break out of the. The noise of. Of the world that we live in today.

I totally agree. Welcome to the relationship economy.

The relationship economy. So let's just see. So you're talking about not just doing this, but building your culture around it. So enshrining it. We heard the stories of going deep at Worldwide Express and Starbucks, putting it on the aprons and establishing that vision, the Ford thing to the family, occupation, recreation, and dreams, Right?

Correct.

I think we've covered a ton and probably talked people's ears off, giving them enough of what to work on. Let me tell folks if they want to find out more about your work. Or of course they can find the Relationship economy book. It's out now. Right. They can get it on Amazon.

It came out October 8th and hit number one on Amazon.

All right, and then we'll put a Link in the DeJulius Group.com is the web address and we'll put that link in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on and. And talking with us today.

I loved it. Thank you, Bill, for having me.

I want to remind everyone that all of our back episodes, you can find them either on itunes or wherever you get your podcast. Of course, we have them all along with the downloads and the links and that kind of thing at our website, scalingcoach. And we'll even give you a copy of the book Scaling up for free if you just pay the shipping and handling. So scalingcoach.com the dejuliusgroup.com thanks again to everyone. We'll talk to you next week.

Thank you.

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