279: David Wood — Addressing the Mouse and the Elephant in the Room

One of these days I'm gonna get bored with that track. Maybe some of my listeners are. For me, it has good association. Still, I'm digging it. Everybody talks about the elephant in the room. We're gonna talk about something else. The mouse in the room. What. What other animals have you got going on in your room? I know my dog comes in a lot. The chihuahua in the room is a big topic. Hi again, everyone. My name is Bill Gallagher, scaling coach, host of the Scaling up business podcast, all around Passionate growth Guy. I'm really interested in our topic and our guest today, and I want you to remind everyone that we bring our shows, our conversations about scaling every week. And if you're watching live, of course we go through batches of doing them a whole lot. But we, we feed out to you podcast, video, audio, content every week on everything to do with people, strategy, execution, cash, and the leadership required to take your company 10x and and well beyond all that and more@scalingcoach.com you'll find all that in moriscancoach.com or wherever you get your audio video content. So there you go. I'm joined today by my friend David Wood. David is a rock star performance coach for leaders, focuses on leadership performance coaching in particular. He has a background in actuarial consulting. And so he's got both the big company as well as the deep human kinds of things, the things that we all grapple with. He joins us from Boulder, Colorado. How are things today in Boulder, David?

Pretty good, Bill. The weather's good. My internal weather is good. I'm feeling anticipation at talking about the mice in the room and how we can name them and how it can actually change our lives.

That's awesome. Awesome, awesome, awesome. So what do we even mean by the mice in the room? What is that all about?

Right?

I know about the mouse in the room. And where do we come up with this?

Well, it says something about our society, that something's got to be as big as an elephant in between us before we have an expression that refers to it and one of us is going to bring it up. Like say, for example, if I was five minutes late to this interview and didn't say anything, that'd be kind of of be an elephant between the two of us and it'd be weird. But a lot of people even then don't bring it up. What I've discovered is there are so many things happening in the room and in my internal room that never make it into conscious thought or out into the conversation between you and me. And I think it's because when I grew up, I grew up Australian. We don't tend to talk about our feelings very much. I grew up as a man and men don't tend to talk about our feelings very much as a stereotype. And also I had some trauma as a kid and I just learned to shut down emotion. I didn't know that. I just grew up the way I thought everyone else did. And then when I discovered personal growth and I discovered there's a whole world of stuff I knew nothing about, like vulnerability, true intimacy, revealing my own experience to myself and then to others. And apparently this all clicks in very well with leadership because if you don't know what's going on for yourself and you can't reveal that and share that with others, it's going to be hard to connect and hard to have influence.

Forget all that. Let's just have another beer and tell an off color joke.

Yes. There you go. You fit it right in with my friends in my hometown.

Let's talk about sports for a minute.

Right? All the weather.

The weather, yes. The markets.

The more, Bill, the more I've hung out with people in Boulder and gone and done some trainings here, the more I've realized there's such a world of stuff going on inside now. Okay, Some of it makes it to the forefront, like, I got a big pain in my foot or I've got a headache or I'm feeling tired or maybe you're blowing smoke in my face. These things we already know about. But maybe you say something and I feel a little embarrassed and I just gloss over it because maybe it's going to be awkward and so I don't even notice that I'm embarrassed or I might have even felt offended, but it was so slight. I just skip over it. We jump over it. Ha ha ha. Making jokes. And what I'm interested in now in my world is slowing down to the speed of connection so that I can work out what's happening for me now. It doesn't mean I'm going to share every single thought going through my head, but particularly when it's stuff that could disconnect me from someone else. Is there a way to artfully take a little bit of a risk in service of more connection?

So I hear, like we have so many things to unpack and talk about here, but I definitely hear modulating our pace and our awareness. Right? You talk about slowing down. Our people are generally go fast. We talk about connection, self awareness. I hear. I hear a whole lot of things. Going on there. And then the premise at the beginning of it is looking for little things. You talk about coming to the meeting and not acknowledging the fact that we're late or not quite ready, and then just hoping that we'll move on to something else or make a joke about something or. Right. And not deal with that. And then. Then it's in the background.

Yeah. So the question is, what's my internal experience? Like, what's happening? I want. I want us all to be more aware of that, and then we can choose. Do I share it? Maybe. Maybe in the meeting, not many people are speaking, and it seems kind of low energy. Those are two mice right there. And I. I might even say, hey, it seems to me like we're a bit low energy today. Is. Does that seem right, or is that just my story? And then we can talk about it now. We can connect. Yeah, I'm a little bit down or, you know, I just didn't sleep well or whatever. Or some people might be like, no, I'm actually feeling ramped up. I just didn't know it was my turn to talk.

Yes. Who knows?

But we name what's happening. It's a great leadership move, particularly in a group, because now we can all relate around a common experience. You might be thinking, I don't agree with the direction this is heading in, but if I speak up, maybe I'll be unpopular.

Yes.

Boom. Those are two mice.

Yes.

First mouse, I don't agree. Second mouse, I'm hesitant to speak up because maybe I'll be unpopular. And I'm not even sure if it's the right timing. There's a third mouse, and so if I share all three of those things, I can get some reality on that. We call that a reality check.

Mouse, I love what you're saying here because we're big on. We walk into a room or a meeting, and we're like, isn't it a great day? Or, wow, it's cold today. Or, hey, we're all tired. We call out some big things that are present and out there. We don't often speak to the little things. The other little factors that could be going on and. Or developing as we keep talking. And rarely do we talk about what's going on with us. Yeah, you know, I'm really excited. I see a lot of shiny faces. I notice I'm a little off today. Like, what's that all about? Right. Or there's something that's been on my. That's bugging me. I don't know how to say this. Exactly. Let me just tell you, like, that doesn't happen a lot.

And when I hear you say that, even though this was just an example, I feel my trust in you. Go up.

Yeah.

If you're gonna. You might. You might say, hey, I just want to name something. And by the way, that's a profound concept in our culture, because normally we don't just name something. If I name something, normally it's, I want it fixed. Right. I complain. But. But if you just said, hey, I just want to name something, my. My dog died this morning. Or I'm having a fight. I'm having a fight at home. And so that's kind of on my mind. And I want to say that so I can let it go and be more present with you guys right here. Now I feel like I know who I'm talking to.

Well, take even the more mundane thing, like, oh, I just got to learn on my phone about. From my wife. And I just. I'm embarrassed and distracted by the fact that I totally forgot something and I'm going to, like, be in trouble later. Like, okay, now I've called it out. Now I'm actually in the same conversation again. Not off my brain, off thinking about my life and the whole thing. I just made that up. By the way, I didn't actually get a text from. It's a good example, but it's so mundane. Right. And then I could say, hey, I need five minutes to go call her. Or I can do it on the break. Let me just write that down. Or like, something like that. Now I'm suddenly back in the meeting instead of off in somewhere else.

Yeah. And it's not just you. Let's suppose you didn't say anything. The rest of us in the meeting might notice you checking your phone and feeling like Bill isn't really here with us. It happens all the time on a podcast. I might not have turned my phone on. Do not disturb. And then I might get a message and I look over. Podcast host can probably feel it. And then. Or a client feels it. If I don't say anything, it's just. It's even weirder than if I do say something. And I'm just saying, hey, you may have noticed I'm looking over here. I just got distracted. Or sometimes I'll tell a podcast host. You might see me looking down because I might. One of us might say something profound, and I want to write down the time reference, and I'm letting you know in advance so you don't think I'm writing A letter to my ex girlfriend or something. Now we're on the same page. We're related now. Some of them are very little mice, like the ones we're talking about. Some of them could be bigger. Like, I just lost. I just lost a close, close friend. Or.

Yeah, it's really big.

I was. I was doing a podcast and I. And he said, how are you? And I said, I'm charged. I answered with the truth. I said, I'm charged. He said, what's going on? I said, I just had a house meeting with my roommate and it didn't go well and whatever. And he's like, do you want to shake it out? I'm like, yes, now you're talking. So we both shook it all out and then, boom, connected. Off we go. That was a big amount. Sometimes they're the size of antelopes. That's okay. It might be small, it might be big. I want us all to get more aware of what's going on with ourselves. And. And then there are artful ways to bring it into communication.

Here's a little one that I think happens to us a lot. Some people like me much more than others. But something makes you think of something else and your brain is gone and you stop listening.

Yes.

And it's really useful to say, I'm sorry. I get distracted. I started to think about, I totally wasn't listening to you. Would you say that one more time again?

Yeah.

If you let that go for 10 minutes, there's probably going to be some repercussion. But if you say it really quickly and have them repeat the critical thing that you missed while your brain was off daydreaming or whatever it was, that probably will go pretty well. They'll be like, oh, thank you for stopping the action and naming the thing or the place, or caring enough to make sure you got what I said, that's pretty powerful.

That's my belief, Bill. Now, I could understand someone going, oh, I don't. That's embarrassing. I don't want to. I don't want them to think, oh, yeah, it's embarrassing. And I don't want them to think I wasn't listening. But that's the truth. Yeah, that period of time I wasn't listening. Sometimes the language I use is, oh, I apologize. I was trying to multi track and my mind went off onto something else when you said that, and I totally missed that. And I want to get it now. If you said that to me again, I think my trust in you would go up. I'm like, wow, this guy's actually telling the truth. And now I get that he's with me and he's listening.

Yeah.

I want to be around people like that.

It's also, even if it is, even in that moment, a little embarrassing, it's a far smaller embarrassment than if it emerges later. You don't have any idea what they've talked about for the last hour. Like, you're really in trouble then.

Oh, man, I've been there. I just started doing. Getting into acting, and I auditioned for a playback theater troupe, where an audience member tells a story, and then we play it back, improvise it, and as in rehearsal, someone was telling their story. I spaced. And that's awkward. Not only now did I not listen, but now I've got to perform for 10 minutes on a story that I didn't hear. So, yeah, it can get.

It can get worse.

And with clients, you want to hear what those clients are saying. Right. And if they. If you miss it, I do think there's upside in artfully sharing up front. Hey, I just noticed. This is what happened. And I do want to hear this. That's.

You know, I think it also includes a whole variety of things. So there's a whole realm of things in, like, zoom and virtual meetings and things like that that we do. Phone calls, remote stuff, right?

Yeah.

So Internet connections, dogs, delivery people, somebody shouting like kids, all manner of things. And sometimes it's. That's only in our own awareness, and yet we're gone. Like, sometimes they'll be blowing. You know, I live in a thing in the backside and around this sort of backside of the house that goes to the back of the property. I can hear gardeners from three houses around me. So I've got my own gardener. And then the three surroundings. So I've got four possible days. Right. A week that I'm likely to hear a leaf blower. And it can be really overwhelming. But a lot of times I'll be like, oh, my God, that's so annoying. And. And I'll be talking with somebody like you, and they'll be like, I don't hear anything. Well, thank God for the noise suppression and stuff on my computer. But I'm totally lost and distracted by it. Right.

Well, I get excited hearing that because I just realized another great benefit of speaking the truth. You get to find out if that's in their world. Now, an elephant. We use the word elephant because we. It's so big that clearly everybody sees it.

Yeah. And they're avoiding it for some reason. Right.

Yes. But this one, you see the mouse. You hear a mouse, which is a leaf blower. You think it's probably impacting them, but you don't actually know. By speaking it into the space, you can find out. They might go, actually, I can't hear a thing now. Maybe you can let it go. So this reality check mouse is so important because I don't think we live like I have David Wood's world. You've got Bill Gallagher's world. And sometimes they meet in the middle. I don't think we live like that. We live like this is the real world, and I'm seeing it, and Bill's probably seeing it too. And I love the movie the Matrix because the Matrix was a totally fabricated environment that looked real. That's how I think. Try and think of my reality, that I've just got my viewpoint, and if I can say, hey, Bill, step into my world for a second, this is what I'm seeing. Are you seeing that too? Now we can get on the same page. And the lingo here in Boulder is they call it weaving shared reality.

You're very blue pill right now with a green screen background. It's very Matrix, like with a blue background with a superimposed artificial background.

Right.

Sometimes people ask me if my background is real, and then I have to go reach and grab a book off the shelf. They're like, oh, that's. No, that's right. It looks fake to some. Yeah, it's really great. All right, so let's share some of the stories and examples that you've got. You talked about a woman trying to create a profit sharing plan, and talk about that one first. If you would share that.

If we're thinking of the same one. I had a client recently who she said to me, should I have a profit sharing plan for my employee? And I said, well, why? Where are you going with this? So firstly, she wasn't even clear on her own motivation. And we call these mirror mice. So it's like, well, why would you do it? And as we got deeper into it, she realized she wants to retain this woman. She wants to motivate her, and she wants to acknowledge her and let her know that she's really valued.

Yes.

Okay. All right. These sound like all good rules or good motivations. And then I said, well, is she motivated by a profit share? And she said, well, I don't know. Okay, why don't you go and find out? Yeah. So she went and had a conversation, and it turns out this woman can't really have a huge Impact on profits, Maybe little. It's more of a. An acknowledgement that you matter. We want to give you a bonus. And so she went and shared about it, had a conversation, and they worked out something that it hasn't been finalized, but they both seem pretty happy with it. But she didn't know her own mice in the beginning, and it took some questioning for her to work it out and then go and get some reality on it with the other woman.

Yeah, I think that's a really useful thing, because how often do we find ourselves doing something? It makes sense. We haven't stopped to consider, wait, why am I doing this? What did I think? We seize on an idea. There's an intuition there, and we're moving towards something, but we haven't pulled apart what's driving it for ourselves. And if we haven't done it for ourselves, we certainly haven't done it with the other party. And sometimes what matters is really, really different. I can remember one of our past clients who was like, I can't get my team to perform more. I can't get them to do any. Like, no matter what I say, they just do the same thing.

Right.

I'm like, well, you want them to do more, and you're trying to do things that you think would make a difference for you. What do they care about? What are they working on? What do they need? Personally.

Yeah. And where my mind. Where my mind goes. Hearing that is, like, so often. And I imagine you find this in coaching as well. When your client says something to you about the problem, often the coaching is, well, can you say that? Can you say what you just told me? Because their mice come out in conversation with me. So let's suppose they say to me, hey, I keep asking for something different. I keep getting the same thing. That's a mouse.

Mm.

That's the mouse. Can you go and share that? Hey, team. I notice in several different ways, I've asked for something, and it keeps coming back the same way. Am I missing something? Are you missing something? What's going on there? The truth will set you free.

Yeah. You know what? Here's the thing that we don't even say. There are things that we don't even speak very straight. So that CEO doesn't go out, didn't go out at the time and say, look, I really want to get higher performance. I'm not happy with this level of performance.

Yeah, it doesn't say that. Yeah. You know, often I won't even know my own motivation. And I think growing up very left Brained and in Australia and cerebral. I would skip three or four steps in my head and just get to a solution. Yeah. And then I'll, you know, I might be like, oh, like this. The subconscious might be saying, whoa, Everyone seems low energy. Maybe I'm speaking to a group. Seems low energy. I want to get the. Get the energy up. And so I jump to solution and I try and get something done. But it's a little weird because they may not know why I'm doing what I'm doing. We've skipped three steps. Now if we can slow it down and realize what's happening now I have a chance to say, hey, how's the energy in the room? How is it? You just had lunch. How you feeling? I like that. All right. What do you say we get the energy up a little bit so that the information can go into our brains better and we can make more money. Now they know why I'm doing it, and we're going to do some stuff to actually. And maybe they'll get on board. So you. You didn't use these exact words. But here in Boulder, they'll sometimes say to the leaders, what's your why? I want to know your why. And so that's a great. I love that question because, like, oh, yeah, why am I trying to. Why am I asking you where you're from? Why am I. Someone just sent us some questions for the podcast. They said, we want to know, do you have a link to your appearance on cnn? Do you have a link to this? Do you have a testimonial from this executive and whatever. And we've had so many questions. Now I want to know the why. Like, I'm willing to give you evidence and information, but there's a limit to how far I want to go. So what's going on? And maybe we'll. Maybe we'll talk about it. Maybe some mice will come out. Who knows? Maybe we can still make it work. Maybe it's like there's something weird. I don't know. But this why this motivation is so powerful.

The reason behind something. The why something matters. What do you care about? Actually, really useful. Yeah, let's talk about that. Another good story, I think, is your endorsement, your forward. Right. You got your forward done by Jack Canfield. I think that's a good story of how did that come to be.

Yeah. And this was for a previous book. This isn't for the name of that mouse. Book name that mouse. I think Marshall Goldsmith has given an endorsement. But Jack. Yeah, that was interesting when I first saw Jack, it was at a conference. It was at a Coachville conference. So this is how long ago that was. That was like 20 years ago, I think. And everyone was lined up trying to talk to him. And I thought, what's true for me? So this is like, what are my mice? What's true? What's my experience? And then when he took a break, I think he was heading off to the bathroom. I said, jack, I just wanted to say I admire your success and your books make me cry. That's what was true. And we got chatting for a little bit and I offered to promote. I said, if there's anything I can promote for you. I got like, back then, it was 40,000 coaches. And he said, oh, that's half of our list. We should do something. So that was a beginning. Now it took another five years of stalking. And, you know, because I just so admired him and I wanted to.

Stalking is always a good idea.

Yeah, yeah. Artfully stalking. Right? And then he was at a lunch of something else and we were chatting and we were called to lunch. And this, this was an accident. But, guys, you should really steal this. I said, hey, I've got to go to the bathroom. Would you save me a seat? So now, instead of being one of the 50 people who are trying to sit next to Jack, I just went to the bathroom, came back, and there's Jack sitting there with a seat next to him, and he's telling people, this is taken. Genius. Total accident. Anyway, we got chatting, and again, I try and err on the side of truth because for years I was hiding my truth. So now I just try and do nosebleed honesty. And I said, look, Jack, bold request. I'm wondering if you'd be open to writing the forward to my book. And to be totally upfront, I have asked Richard Branson, and if he says yes, I'm going to go with him. Would you be willing to be my backup? And I know that's a big request.

I love the chutzpah of that. Right. Like Jack Canfield. You might have written a book or something. I don't know. I heard actually that you got a lot of rejections. Yeah.

And I didn't know what his response was going to be. And he said, well, you're going alphabetically. I can understand that. Branson, Canfield. And I love him for that. I love him for that. And true to his word, he said, look, be willing to take a look now. Branson said no. Jack ended up saying yes. And I knew I was taking A risk. He could have said, screw you. But I like to think that it was the. The mouse naming. It's just being straight that got his attention and had like, I want to know more about this person. I know that's how I am. You tell me something that's edgy to share and you're taking a risk sharing it. I want to know you. I want to know people like that.

Yeah, Yeah. A little honesty is really disarming, really connecting. I hear a lot of that humility. I also hear an interesting hack that my dad shared with me years ago. He said people are wired to help each other, and instead of saying, can I tell you something or can I sell you or can I like, borrow bug you later or whatever, you asked him for help. Hey, would you hold this seat for me? Would you save the seat for me? Right? And I think when you're trying to get into a business or other situation, asking for a favor in some even simple way. Oh, hey, I. Can I borrow a pen or something like that could be a powerful shift. Would you mind if we used your office instead of mine? They're doing some work and, you know, who knows what? But like something that asking somebody for a side favor can shift the dynamics and something. Instead of trying to break in, you call up and say, hey, can I help you? XYZ Corp? And I'm like, you know, I'm hoping you can help me. I don't know who I'm supposed to talk to at this company. Like, I'm looking for the person in charge of this. That whole conversation, I'm just cold calling the business. But that whole conversation just shifted because I brought some humanity and some vulnerability to it. I don't even know what I'm doing. Could you help me do my job?

Yes. And I want to give a caveat. I think what you're saying is absolutely true. We need to be careful that we're not doing it specifically to try and get a result.

Clever manipulation.

Yeah, exactly.

And look a little taken. Much like a gimmick hack thing.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the word manipulation at all. If you can manipulate me into having a better time in life, you go right ahead. And I'm always trying to control and manipulate my environment. I'm just saying if we'd trying to be truthful in the hope that they'll like us more and then we get something else, I would say that's another mouse. And I would encourage more in the direction of just sharing simply to be connected and to be expressed and trust that the rest will work out. So much easier than trying to do it, I might say. Like when I. When I first got nominated to the Transformational Leadership Council, I got to go and hang out with Jack Canfield and John Gray and Marianne Williamson as a peer and I was so stage struck.

Recognizable names.

Yeah. Yeah. And here I am as a peer. Not someone who's paid money to go and hang out and watch them speak, but I'm hanging out with them as friends. I stood up, they gave me three minutes to just introduce myself and I went for it. I said, look, I don't know what, what my core desires are. I know I'm so starstruck with you guys here and I'm really hoping you like me. And I'm worried that I'm going to say the wrong thing. That's all I got for now. Hopefully I'll be more eloquent later. That was me. Just. Yes. Yeah. You know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And it's true. I want people to like me. So, of course, easier to own it and say, get up on stage and saying, I really hope you like me and that I'm impressive as hell up here. And aside from that, I'd really like to give you some good information.

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny. And yet we don't have a lot of room. Most of us, most of the time don't have a lot of room for our humanity. We don't walk to the front of the room and say, I hope you really like what I have to say today.

Right. Right.

Eye opener, though, for a talk.

It would. And look, I read some Brene Brown, big fan of Brene Brown and she gives an example in there about when not to be totally vulnerable. You're not going to go to the board and say, the company's running off a cliff. I don't know what we're going to do. We're going under. Help. You're not going to do it like that. But you might go and say, some of you might be scared. If you are, I don't blame you. This is a challenging time. We don't have all the answers yet, but together we'll work them out. Right? There are ways to artfully share what's going on in a way that the other person can be empowered. You don't have to be 100% transparent, book. I used to think you did. Now I've realized, no, just maybe nine times out of ten, err on the side of more transparency, you will lose some stuff. You'll lose some friends, you might lose some clients, but I say they're the ones that you're supposed to lose. And the people who are meant to be around you can find you.

Yeah. You know, I had a conversation like that in roughly 2004 where I had to go and declare a big breakdown and be really honest. And I spent two, three weeks avoiding the conversation, suffering and avoiding the conversation. Then I finally went and did it. And it led to one of the proudest years of my career, one of the most extraordinary breakthroughs and times of incredible growth. But it was really. It took a great deal of courage and vulnerability to go do it, and commitment. It was pretty terrifying on the whole, but it led to some really amazing results.

I like hearing that. Yeah. I found, like, I tend to lean into my fears. My psychiatrist called me counterphobic, and I didn't know that was a thing, but when he said the term, I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, if I'm afraid of it, I almost have to do it now. And one of the things that was scary was calling people from my past that I resented or felt guilty about something and completing the relationship, like, just getting complete with that. I did not want to do it. It was terrifying. And this is from Landmark Education. They kept on. They kept on going.

Yeah. Yeah.

Every course is just another name for. You're going to call people and you're going to discuss awkward things. You're going to name some mice, basically. But the more I did it, the prouder I felt of myself and the more expressed I felt. And a lot of those relationships where I hated those people got dissolved and we became friends, and I'm like, oh, my God, look what can happen from transparency. So the scarier it is, it might be that the potential upside is even higher.

Yes.

So it's even more worth it.

Well, you know, a lot of people ask me about some of the similar ideas, like, why do we keep having to talk about our parents and our early childhood things? And, like, because that's where all the patterns started. Right. That's where things began. And when you think about it, like, we all carry around hangups, issues, things like that, relating to our mom, our dad, our siblings, our certain teachers, that kind of thing. And then those patterns build and reinforce over time till we're operating in a fairly narrow thing. So when you have an insight and a breakthrough and you find the courage to call your mom and tell her you're sorry that you've been keeping her out of your life for years. Right. All kinds of things start. Your career shifts, Your relationship with your spouse shifts, your way of looking at your customers and team and things like that shift. Right? And you get your mom back in your life, which is the richness of that, the real direct results. That's why courses like Landmark and that kind of thing work. That's why that is part of our leadership coaching, yours and mine, with the people that we work with, because we're like, yeah, you've been acting the same way forever and ever, and you haven't stopped to think about it. You don't have to spend decades in therapy to deal with it. You just have to see. Even carrying around a crap story about your mom for a long time and using it to make your life small and to keep her out of your life. And when you deal with that thing, everything shifts.

Were you an SCP leader at Landmark?

Yeah, I was one of the instructors. And like that.

Yeah, man. I just heard it right there and then. I felt inspired. I feel lit up. I feel moved. And when you said, you're using it to keep your life small, cut that shit out. And I also got that. You know, if you go and name a mouse with someone today, do you go and name a mouse with your partner? Hey, I broke an agreement three years ago. I feel bad about it. You're not doing it just for that situation and just with that person. You're doing it for the pattern of withholding. You're doing it for all the relationships where you withhold. And I'm a systems geek, so you sold me on that one, Bill.

Yeah, there's a whole world of. And. And. And group of things that. Well, that was weird.

We just switched places on the video. What? Because we're interchangeable, Bill.

Wow. I've never. Okay, I'm totally thrown now. How did that happen? They say I'm like, distraction. I'm like. So we've been doing this show for a while in this same platform. I've never seen my video flip like that. I'm like. My whole way of looking at the world is thrown, like, wow. All right, well, let's keep playing with this. Let's see how, like, I want to. I really want to switch it back, but I don't know how to do that, so.

I love the metaphor. Like, I was looking at your face. Now I'm seeing my face. Yeah. You know, they say we're all one.

Oh, my God. So I. Let's talk about another one. One of your other stories certainly resonates with me. I worked with my wife for 11 years. I came in as the CEO of the business that she founded for a time, like a turnaround in a period of growth. And that was challenging on all kinds of levels. You shared a story about a guy working with his fiance. Talk about that a little bit.

I got to remember what the story is. That guy, fiance.

We were talking about micromanaging and what they needed in their.

No. But as you're asking the question, another one came up really big for me that I'd love to share if it's okay. This was one of my hardest mice to name. I'm very sensitive around noise and so I like to try and control my home environment. And a few months ago my landlord wanted to move in downstairs and I was very worried about setting boundaries with someone who owned a house.

Yes.

And the first day that he moved in downstairs, he opened up the door that separates his space from mine and just walked in and started using the storage room. And I'm standing there at the top of the stairs stunned and frozen.

Yes.

And I said, firstly, welcome. Secondly, would you be willing to give me a heads up when you want to use that room so I know you're coming? And he said, no, no, I'm just letting you know. And I said, well, it feels like a violation of my right to quiet enjoyment. He said, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you this is how it's going to be. I went into panic and started making phone calls. I called his wife and said, can you handle this because I'm having a panic attack. I called the police and I said, I don't know if you can help out here, but maybe you can mediate because I don't know how I'm going to sleep in the house knowing this guy is just going to walk in whenever he wants. Couldn't sleep for two nights basically. And I woke up one morning realizing I need to talk with him face to face and be real with him and be vulnerable. And so I sent and this was 6am because I couldn't sleep, I sent a long text and him in meeting me in the garden with a cup of tea and he said yes. So that was the first win. Then instead of launching in with my problem, I asked him how he manifested the house because I wanted to manifest something similar. I'm like, how did you do it? And he talked for half an hour about how important the house was to him and I just listened. And then at the end of that I said, can I tell you what's going on for me A little bit. And he said, yeah. And I said, I'm really trying to change my thinking, so I'm good with you just coming in and out. And I am miserable. I'm just telling you, I am not sleeping. I'm miserable. I'm looking for a hotel. Is there any chance you might be willing to give me a heads up so I can relax? And he said, yeah, I can do that. And I cried. Sitting there with him looking out over the valley. I had tears in my eyes. And I said, I cannot tell you the difference that makes for me, but thank you. And then before we wrapped up, I said, you know, I was telling people, I think at his core, this guy's a real sweetheart. We butt heads. We butt heads. But I think he's a real sweetheart at heart. And he said, that's how I try to be. We really connected. I got goosebumps right now because I went from calling the police on this guy looking for a hotel and a lawyer to just being straight with him up front. And we ended up, he went into town, he's like, can I pick you anything up in town? He'd come back. I'm like, can I carry those groceries for you? I had an ally downstairs, whereas before I had an enemy. And I say to you listeners, if I can transform that relationship, then you can transform any relationship.

Yeah, there's something powerful about connecting, about being vulnerable, about speaking about things and sharing your perspective versus, I don't know, like, you know, just pushing on something. Right? Pushing, pulling, manipulating that whole kind of thing. The other thing is, it sounds like it was a little bit implied there, but there's envisioning and sharing a vision for a different kind of future. Right? So we don't see this a lot in the Middle East. We don't see anyone saying, look, I imagine a future where you and I live this way and this is going on. Instead, we talk about, we've been here for a thousand years and you've been here. And they're like, no, we've been here for 2,000 years and we're all this. And you did this to us. And there's all that kind of, like, history and story and baggage and stuff going on and very little, like, wouldn't it be great if we could figure out how to not kill each other? Wouldn't it be great if we could figure out how to live side by side? Wouldn't it be great if, you know, not that. Like, yeah.

And in a situation like that, when both parties have got a lot of charge Someone's got to offer to go second. Someone's got to offer to go second and give the other person a chance to go first. I just had an example on the weekend where someone was. Was angry with me and I was so surprised. I'm like, this is coming out of nowhere. And they were like sending a string of nasty messages. And I really wanted to share my experience, but I figured it wasn't going to land on open ears. So I sent an audio back and I said, I'm going to try not to respond, not to react, not to tell you what I'm feeling, not to tell you my point of view. I'm just going to try and get your experience. So I'm going to go for about a minute and then I want you to correct me. And I sent an audio back. You're angry with this, you're angry with that. You think I'm disrespecting you. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I tried to recreate their experience and I said, let me know if I got that right. And the text back was, yes, I think you've captured my frustration. That's a beginning. And I call that an advanced tip. If you've both got a lot of charge, maybe you can agree who's going to go first. If all we did in this world is learn how to take turns and pass the talking stick, I think our society would fundamentally shift.

Let me cut you off right there.

Please.

You actually. Let me cut you off right there. You paused and actually did subtly pass that talking stick. Right. When we do listening exercises with teams and individuals and we're working on the deeper listening course, we first get the words and the emotional state, and then we try to guess some of the intent. But the real cool breakthroughs happen when we try to give voice to the thing that the other person isn't even saying. Right. What do you suppose they value? And there's some. I'm not going to cite it right right now, but there's a couple of Harvard professors have written about this thing that behind the people's complaints is something virtuous, a value, a commitment of some kind, something they care about deeply. And if you can lean into, if you can identify that, maybe even guess, like, I think maybe you're really worried about this. And if I name something that you weren't actually speaking that you care deeply about, usually that causes a huge break in the connection and a deep emotional response in the other person, like, oh, my God, thank you.

You know, 100% agree I think it's a friend of mine, Kendra Kunov, who says, complaint is a lazy desire. So there's something under that person. Yeah, yeah. And another friend of mine who was her husband, Deka Kunov, he would say, ask yourself, what kind of person would do this? Like, you got the behavior. You don't like the behavior, but what kind of person would do this? What might be going on for them that would have them do this? Which I think is the beginnings of empathy. And right now I've got the person who was angry with me is my roommate. And I was not able to get into his world and really work out why he's so angry. And more recently, it's making more sense. He feels attacked, and he's been giving me the clues. He even told me at one point I feel attacked. And I'm like, but there's so much that I kind of missed some of this stuff. And I think he doesn't feel that I've got his interests at heart. And so that has made a big difference to me. It's like, oh, well, now I understand why you're sending me messages like that, and maybe we could address that. So I sent him an audio yesterday saying, hey, I just got your text that said, what the hell is this? And I want you to know I'm not against you and I'm not out to get you. And so I'm surprised by it. But we're going beneath the words, and I like that. Bill, I think you just dropped a value bomb there with that one.

Well, I want to be mindful of our time and our listeners. I know they're used to our show's coming in a particular time. We've been talking, very engaged in our conversation, and it's nice to see you, if even virtually here and connect and talk again. If you want to hear more about the book or like that kind of thing, myfocusgift.com is the link. We'll put it up there on the screen in front of us. Also, we'll throw it into the show notes for this particular show, if you want to get in touch with us, you'll find us@scalingcoach.com scalingcoach.com if we can help you connect with one of our guests or find a coach in your area or anything like that. Send an email to infocalingcoach.com so info scalingcoach.com, of course, like, subscribe, comment, all that kind of stuff is good for both of us. If you love our show and want to not miss out on any of them. I want to give a big thanks to Lucy Summers, producing the show each and every week, getting our show in and out, our guests ready, that kind of thing. Thank you, Lucy. And to Verne Harnisch, creator of the Scaling Up Framework, originally longtime Boulder guy, actually, and I don't know where he is this week. But big thanks to Vern Harnish. And also to the folks at Podfly Productions, Ayn Kodina, Alby Burge, Tim McGowan, all those folks getting our show produced ready, out the door onto the audio platforms each week. Thanks again, everyone. Keep Scaling Up. We'll talk to you again next time. Bye. Bye.