706 - Do You Really Want to Know? Why CEOs Dodge Honest Feedback

I wonder if you really want to know how you're doing as a CEO. See, everybody says, yes, I want to know how I'm doing and how I can improve. But then the other behaviors suggest that either consciously or unconsciously, you probably don't actually want to know. So I'm not sure that I believe you when you say you want to know. Everybody, I'm Bill Gallagher, Scaling Coach and host of the Scaling Up Business Podcast. Also author of Busy Is Broken. This show comes to you every week with tales, stories, that kind of thing. This solo episode explores CEO feedback and how do we level up as a CEO. Let me start off with kind of my personal story. Look, I never really liked to know how it was, although I said I did. The truth is, if I talked to you about a problem that I was dealing with, I used to to my wife all the time complaining about this or that with several different companies. But, but I remember one time in particular talking about our, our jewelry business, the one she started years ago that I came in and ran for 11 years as CEO and worked on scaling. Anyway, so I'm complaining about, I don't know, probably at any given time, lots of people, people on my team, vendors, partners, customers, like all that kind of thing. And then, Lori would always flip it back to me. She'd be like, here's what's wrong with you. Here's what's wrong with you. Here's what you're not doing. And I would get so mad. And I'm like, no, there's a real problem. I need to fire those people, fix those people, discipline those people. I need to do something. And I just always wanted to focus on the other person in whatever the matter was. Right. Every time I'd be having a problem and somebody told me it was my fault, it'd be very upsetting to me. And in general, I don't walk around going, what's wrong with me that I have this situation in life? I go, what's wrong with the other people? Now, maybe I'm more arrogant than you. There's definitely that chance. But I know some of you are like me and you want to focus on what is wrong with everybody else. It's really hard to think that you have something to do with it. So here's the thing. There's definitely issues with other people, but my wife Lori would always flip it to me. She's like, yeah, maybe there's an issue there, but who are you that you hired them, kept working with them, didn't draw the line with them? Who are you that you created and tolerated this situation to get to this breaking point? And I, I think that it's uncomfortable and I get defensive and I don't like to hear it, but I've learned to know That the very easiest person for me to work on is me. And while there might be things to do with the other people around me, right, customer, employee, partner, vendor, like whatever, there's always then me who created that situation. So it is ultimately like liberating and empowering to realize you and I are the ones who created the situation. And there's lots of ways of doing it. So we know the 360 review, we know what it is to have a coach. Hopefully you have had a coach. I shared, I started having coaches, business coaches in my 20s. And this friend of mine, Mike Maddock, last night at dinner was like, oh my God, you had a coach in your 20s? I'm like, yeah, I was about 25 when I started. Then I had another one at 27. So I had at different points business coaches and it was really useful because I could just say, tell me what to do next. What am I missing? Where do I need to go? And it made my life a lot easier. One of the things that I got coached to do was to find out how I'm doing as a leader in a deep, rich way. So, a coach can give you feedback. You can look at your numbers. You can have an advisory group like a forum or a Vistage group, and you could do a 360 review. All of these things are good. I actually suggest you do all of them. But the other one that we talk about in the book, Busy Is Broken, that I did is this kind of in-depth, rich interview assessment from Fernando Flores. So Fernando Flores, really interesting philosopher, business politician, etc. And he said, we are so focused on like being polite and not really telling the honest truth. It'd be really great to get a rich like in-depth assessment for people. So, I got coached by my coach to go do a handful of these. And I interviewed some of the people on the leadership team for the jewelry company that I had come in to take over that I was running now. And it was in moments uncomfortable. And I think a lot of times we are Afraid to open up this can of worms, like start something, then have to deal with it. But I've always been a good student, a good coachee. And so, I like, you know, if I get the assignment, I'll do it even and go through the uncomfortable places and notice what I notice and then share that back with my coach, teacher, trainer, like whatever it is. So, I went and did a couple of these. I probably did 4 of them. on the leadership team, maybe some of the others in the company. And I said, all right, how am I doing as a leader? I need your feedback for me to lead this company effectively. And I'm really committed to growing us and I want to know how I'm doing. So, I want your honest opinion. I want the real truth. I don't want you to tell me what'll make me feel good. I really, I'm serious about it. I want it. It's okay. Like anything you say. So, I spent, A moment or two giving rich permission and meaning it. And then I started with the easy part. So, this helps to continue to build that. What am I doing that's good? Like, what's good about me? What's reliable? What are my strengths? Like, tell me all the good stuff. And then I brought curiosity to that. Is that really true? How do you feel about that? Not defensive or deflection or— Like, yes, no, whatever. I just, I'm curious. Tell me more. So now we're into all of it and it's starting to be like, oh, they can tell I do actually want to know. And, you know, we get a bit of it. And then after we've got the main points and I've kind of probed them a little bit and I'm really seeking to understand, I'm demonstrating that I seek to understand. I said, okay, let's talk about maybe the things that you don't love so much or where I'm missing something or Like that. And then I probe that, messes or upsets, weaknesses, gaps, like, talk to me about that, tell me. And again, I'm curious. And so as I'm curious and like bringing more curiosity to digging into it a little bit, now more and more is coming out and I'm getting more of it. Along the way, 2 of the leaders in particular said to me, you're the wrong kind of leader. Like, we like the old leader, your wife, who's the founder of the company. And the way she worked with us was like this. And she did these things and helped us in this way, and you don't do any of that. And I was like, oh, wow, that's interesting. Yeah, I get that. Like, I could see why you'd like that and why you miss her in that role. And I thought about it for a minute and I thought about, well, what should I do with this? And then I had this insight. I'm forever going to be a disappointment to them. It's just not in my nature. Like, I could stretch to do that some of the time, but it'd be— fake. And I have zero commitment to being that kind of leader like she was. Fine. It's a valid kind of style of leadership and, and role as a founder of a company to do what she did in that way. But I wasn't that, and I wasn't going to be that. And I had a different intention for where we were going with the company. So I, in the minute there in the thing, I said, you know what, I'm probably forever going to be a disappointment to you in that because I'm never going to be like that. And I'm committed to these things and I'm going to focus on that. And I'm never going to do those things that she did. Um, and they're fine, good things, but they're not the only way to lead. And they're definitely not the way that I'm going to do it. Um, and like, if you need that, you're never really going to be happy with me. And I didn't say you should move on or whatever, but that is what I was thinking anyway. Um, not long after, they both left, um, the company and it was somewhat disruptive and good, but ultimately actually really good. Because I could bring in people who were willing and interested to work with the company in the way with a leader that was going to do what I did when there were good points there. Right. So, um, I had to actually deal with what was there. It was uncomfortable. I didn't like hearing it. And again and again, like leaning into the discomfort and opening the conversation, even though it led to a shift in vacancies, like upsets, like disruption in my leadership team in the company, ultimately led to good things and a turnaround in the business that was necessary. So, um, here's what it looks like when you do it, when you and I do it. Um, there's a few things that I see again and again. The first one is no scorecards for anyone, for the CEO. So everybody, we go to work on building scorecards and you maybe do it through the motions, but you never finish yours and nobody else uses your scorecard to hold you accountable, right? You don't say finish and develop your scorecard like you do with everybody else on the team. You don't give it to the board or to me or your coach or whatever and say, or even a buddy or your COO and say, okay, now I want you also to hold me accountable for living up to my scorecard. You ask how I'm doing, but you ask it in a way that guarantees you're doing great, man. You ask it in a way that skirts the like in-depth critique. So you ask, how am I doing? Or how, like, things like that. And, but you do it in a way that guarantees you're not going to get the biting comment. You fill your board, whether it's a fiduciary board, a controlling board, or an advisory board, you fill it with people that are friendly to you, that share your point of view, and they don't push you and challenge you. And you surround yourself with a team that filters the bad news. They know what's going to trigger you and Have you lose your cool in the office, and they they filter it, and they and they make it easier and smoother for you. You hire a coach, but then you cancel sessions with me or with your coach when the numbers are ugly, when there's a crisis. You're like, oh, this isn't really a time for the scaling up coaching. I'm gonna go like work on this separate. You don't bring whatever you're struggling with and upset about to the coaching conversation. You keep that separate. The coaching conversation is just for like. Doing the big growth things, the good news stuff or whatever. And you, you put it on pause, you delay it, you do like whatever, and you avoid those kinds of things. And even you'll cancel or skip quarterly planning. I see this all the time. Oh, we got a big situation right now. We can't do planning. This is a really common thing. We're going to cancel it. Now, I don't usually fire clients for doing it. It's all too common. But I point out that the very significant emergency or thing that you're grappling with actually ought to come into the session. And we ought to talk about what's like wrong with you as a leadership team, as a CEO, as a company that you're in this situation. What do we do about it? We want to take a long, hard look in the mirror and collectively look at how we're doing to do it. So these are some of the common things that I see again and again, and you and I both do them. So here's why, right? Why is that your identity, in particular founders and CEOs, you, who you are for yourself is so tied to the role that you have. It's so all-encompassing. The feedback that you get lands as a verdict, like an indictment on you. And not knowing, like focusing on something else lets you feel good, lets you get through the day and grapple with that. And feeling good is important, like finding a way to, to feel good enough. Yeah. to get your job done. And the bigger you go, the bigger your company is, the more people on your team, the layers of your management, the less the truth reaches you. And ignorance becomes kind of the set point. And then when things are like whatever, things you don't want to look at, you busy yourself, right? So, busy is broken. We don't talk as much about this in the book, but We will busy ourselves and work on things that we enjoy or that we like doing, that we're comfortable doing, rather than going to the more uncomfortable things to look into where it is. So, uh, there's a prescription and I want to talk to you about like, what are some things that you could do right now? Uh, so first of all, develop a scorecard, create an actual scorecard with metrics and things like that, and give it to at least one other person to hold you accountable to delivering on your role. Ask your team anonymous questions. What should you stop doing? What should you retire? Where should you level up as a leader? Ask questions like that in anonymous ways so that people can give you feedback with some safety. And when the answers come back to you, don't get defensive. Don't explain it. Don't whatever. Say, well, thank you, like I did with the leaders on my team. Thank you so much. I am always going to disappoint you. You might go and clean it up. You might shift something in some way, right? But notice, if you haven't heard something that stung, that felt uncomfortable, like, like that was calling you out personally, then there's an issue. Now, ultimately, the way to shift it, right, is to create a goal and to go to— like in the book, I talk about my going to Italy, the Italy test. There's a whole chapter on that. And a forcing function that helps. But in order to do that and to go from where you are today to where you need to be with a company that doesn't rely on you, a team that doesn't rely on you, we have to know where you are right now. You want to know how you live for other people. And here's the thing I know again and again. The leaders that I work with, you and I, we kind of know, oh, I'm a perfectionist. Oh, I'm a micromanager. Yeah. You've been it again and again in your life, maybe even today. And you do it in response to stress and pressure and that kind of thing. You're like, well, I have to be a perfectionist 'cause our work like matters in that way or whatever, like that kind of thing. So, you know, what you don't know is the severity of how it is. And you have like rationalizations or justifications for how it is. 'Cause I did, everybody I work with does the same thing. Well, I am that way because we have this, because it really matters, 'cause it's life or death, because it's financial, Because we have an obligation, because there's regulatory, because we're in a time of crisis, because of— on and on and on. You have an explanation for why it's not so bad and why it's actually a necessary behavior on your part, but you probably have very little appreciation of what it's like to be the other person, persons dealing with you. So you don't know what it looks like, how severe it looks from their perspective. And you don't know what it feels like to be them. You don't know how bad it is. So start this week. Ask one person an uncomfortable question. Shut up and listen. Go read the chapter on the interviews. Do some form of that. Do the 360. If you're in a workshop with me, do our live diagnostic, but get your team's input after you do the personal one. And, and then see the whole thing. Get at least 3 people. in that. So you get kind of a rich anonymous picture of how you are. And that's an opportunity to level up, as it's easy for me to say, right? So that's your invitation for this week. Start to pull out some of the input, then start to upgrade it. Keep looking for how you are. You could also look at home. How am I as a mom or a dad, right? All really, really useful things to begin to look at. Hope that's helpful for you. Keep watching, keep listening. Go read, go read Busy Is Broken if you haven't done that. And until next time, keep scaling.