Changing The Way We Do Business with Cathy Thorpe

Foreign. What if we could actually change the way we did business, bring more humanity and connection to it into our leadership, to the companies that we run? What's possible with that? Why is that even important? Does it make our life any better? Hey, everybody, My name is Bill Gallagher. I'm the scaling coach and host of the Scaling up podcast. Podcast. Our show comes to you every week with a CEO like today, an author like today, somebody who can help you think about and find ways to grow and scale your company with less effort, faster, easier, and have more fun in the process. So you'll find more than 550 shows now@scalingcoach.com along with a couple special things. We do a workshop every month to get you started in scaling up, help you shift your mindset and see how to use the tools of scaling up in a range of companies. We also have a free mini course where you can assess where you are in the stages of scaling your company and what's the critical moves to do to move to the next stage of scaling and growing your business, to whatever it is that you want to accomplish. That's for free@scalingcoach.com so find all those shows and more and our monthly workshops@scalingcoach.com. I'm joined now by Kathy Thorpe, CEO and author. She's the CEO of a company that we talk about a lot, Nurse next door, that has applied successfully the scaling up ideas and that kind of thing in different ways to their companies over time. Learning from Vern way back when, the founder of the company, Ken Sim, and then Kathy, is the CEO of that company today and is one of the top influential business women last year and has expanded this company to over 400 franchise locations around the world. She's got a book out this year, Bold Kindness, which is all about being caring, more compassionate, way to lead. So welcome to show Kathy.

Thank you, Bill. It's great to be here.

Thanks for having us here. So what, I don't know, maybe tell kind of your story. What is it that led you to write this book or maybe something about your background and your career that we should know?

Yeah, you know, so I started my career back in retail many, many years ago and I was actually with the gap for 15 years and I, you know, it was one of those. It's been that journey of, you know, having great bosses and having not great bosses. And, you know, I think back to.

Retail is really notorious for both. Right?

Very. And so, yeah, I remember Stephen Sullivan. He was my boss and I loved him. He was just an awesome Relationship leader. And, you know, he actually. I was 29 years old, and he actually believed in me enough and let me run the German organization out in Germany for three years. And I remember one time he came up for a visit and we were driving down the Autobahn, and, you know, obviously a Canadian driving down the autobahn is scary enough as it is. And then you've got Stephen beside you, and he, Cher was on the radio, and so he turns up the music and he was so excited, and he starts singing. And I'm singing, and, you know, I just remember that moment because it was like, wow. He got to know people, he cared deeply, and then even left. And so I got a new boss, and that new boss became fixated on, you know, dashboards and results and, you know, what was, you're only as good as the number you had yesterday. And it really left me feeling disengaged. And it actually disengaged me to the extent that I left the organization after 15 years, a place that I loved and learned so much, but really became. You know, it was just that experience of having a bad boss. And for me, that was really the start of my journey with leadership and just the impact that is made that we make as leaders in an organization on others. And so, you know, fast forward and I start with Nurse Next Door. It's been. It's been 10 years. I can't believe it. But, you know, walking in, into that leadership role, and it's like, what culture do you want to create? And so I've always loved leading and developing others.

Yeah.

But that was really that opportunity to say, okay, what kind of culture do I want to have here at Nurse Next Door? And what do I want to have people feel when they come to work every day?

That's a really useful thing to think about. Like, what does it feel like to come there? Right. And that is there is a feeling around a particular culture and whatever kind of culture, regional, ethnic, religious. Like we all have cultures, corporate cultures that we fit into, and you talk about being in one and suddenly feeling alienated by too much of focus on the facts and figures and not enough focus on the humanity of the. Of the environment.

Yeah, he didn't know me. He didn't know who I was as a person. He didn't know what, you know, got me excited. He didn't know what was going on in my life. And I just. Yeah, I want people to be able to show up and be exactly who they are and bring their whole selves to work and create that environment where People can thrive.

Well, with a background in retail, how did you make the shift from the retail to Nurse Next Door? Was that the director? Was there something in between?

I was in another retail. It was retail and then I went into business consulting for a while, private companies. And then I got this opportunity. You know, for me it's retail franchising. You are leading others, you're leading people, you're working with people. I love working with people. And that connects. It's really the connection everywhere. It's business. And you know, I would say the operations that you learn in, you know, at a place like the Gap and in retail and being able to apply that to a franchise system and really create that, the strong operations that you need to really be able to continuously improve the system.

Tell us about nurse next Door. What does that company look like? What does it do? How does it different than anybody else?

Yeah, so we're a home care company. You know, when I started we had 40 locations. We now have over 400. We're across Canada, the US, Australia, and we just started in England and we will continue to open up in other countries. You know, what differentiates us is we call it happier aging. And it's really about, you know, what did that client used to love doing that they don't get to do anymore. And so we bring that to them and you know, it might be as simple as going for a walk because they love being out in nature. So we go for a walk with them. You know, it could be someone who wants to go on a trip somewhere and we will, you know, do that with them. It really is bringing that those moments of happiness and joy back into someone's life. You know, it's, it's aging can get lonely and how do we help support the mental aspects of helping support someone in the home?

Yeah, I totally get that. My so my mother and mother in law are both alone and aging in their 80s now. And more than anything else, they like the visit. And I have a sibling who focuses a lot on the logistics of my mom's care. When I show up, I mostly just take her to dinner and sit, hold and talk to her.

She would love that. I bet. Yeah, right.

Like what do we do? Well, there's a couple restaurants that we go to right. Regularly and she doesn't eat that much anymore. But like it's just that time to connect and food creates a way to like do that.

It sure does. She probably just loves those moments.

Yeah. And it's interesting though, like establishing a connection to a human being. And knowing someone, like, there's regular caregivers for both of them that they have a human connection with. And then there are other people who are just, you know, doling out their meds or, you know, taking their vitals or things like that.

Exactly. People just worrying about the physical piece of it, and it's really. Yes, it's important, but that mental component is even bigger.

Yeah. It's funny as a. As the kid. Right. Well, I'm not so much a kid anymore. At 60, the caregivers come in the room, and then my mom starts telling them about our lives and stuff and how I was as a little boy, and I. And it's so. It's, like, uncomfortable and kind of cringy. I'm like, mom, they don't want to know that. But, you know, who knows if they want to know that or not? It's. My mom wants to tell it. Right. Like, she. She wants to connect and relive those experiences in that moment.

Yeah. And great caregivers do want to hear those stories. Right. Because they have such big hearts, and that's why that they're doing what they're doing. And so they love that level of relationship with people.

Yeah. It's interesting when you're just focused on, like, getting something. I want you to produce a bigger result for me, or I want you to fix a problem, or I want you to fund me or buy from me or like, whatever. When it's all, like, transactional and we're working on stuff, we get frustrated and there's give and take, and then you stop and you're like, you hear that they've got a child who's in a stressful time or something like that. Or they have something new that they're passionate about, like, personally, a hobby or something like that. Or they got a new pet, you know, or. Or their pet sick. Like, when you get that little bit of something, it's like, oh, oh, this changes everything.

Everything. Right.

I want what I want. Right. But. But. But I have a, like, different, deeper connection with that human being. And I can see how what I'm. What I want relates with what they want, what they're dealing with.

Yeah. It is the human connection.

You in. In our getting ready for the show, you shared some stories and that kind of thing with us. I'd love for you to tell us about the Australia or franchisee, whatever that business was, and where this bold kindness idea is.

Yeah. So, you know, bold kindness, it's really about creating that space to give people the autonomy to really do a great job. And so the story with Australia is so someone I work with, his name is Arif, he's been with the organization for 18 years and he is responsible for global franchise development. And I remember being in, I was actually at Singularity University out in California and I remember sitting outside and Arif calling me and he said, I don't think we're gonna be able to close this Australia master franchise deal. And I said, well, you know Arif, you always figure things out so go and do what it takes. And so I didn't hear from him for a couple of weeks and you know, he walks into my office two weeks later and he's like, okay, we're going to close the deal. And I'm like awesome, that's amazing. And then you know, fast forward a few months and we were waiting to get on the plane, we were at the airport and he looks at me, he's like, we should probably figure out, you know, who's going to go down for the conference in Australia. And I said, oh, okay, so is it because it's the first one and they want someone there? And he's like, no, it's in perpetuity. And I said what? And he said, yeah, they want someone there every year. And I said, oh, I didn't know that we did that. And he said, you know what you told me to do whatever it took. And so I was laughing, I got on the plane and I was just like, exactly. And I love that because he knew that I had the trust in him to be able to go and make those decisions and he did. And I loved that he didn't feel like he had to come and tell me or ask me. He did it and he closed the deal and it's been such a huge success and I just think if he didn't take those chances it wouldn't have happened. So I go back to so bull kindness. So it's about, you know, let me step back even further. You know we always talk about we need, we need to, we only have self led people here at Nurse Next Door. And, and what I mean by that is, you know, I got rid of the notion of the word manager because I believe that managers are managing poor performance. And it's, you know what, when you're a self led adult, you show up, you know when to be at work, you show up on time, you know what your job is, you don't need to have someone tell you what to do. You are going to lead yourself. And so we only have self led people here at Nurse Next Door. And so then you have self led people that want to be developed and they want to grow and do more with their careers and in their life. And so we have those bold conversations, we have bold, direct conversations that give people that opportunity to get feedback, to learn and grow and do do better in life. Then kindness. What is kindness? Kindness is about being in a relationship with someone. You, you want to know that person, you get to know that person, you want to know what their dreams, goals are. And you can, when you have that level of relationship with someone, they are able to hear and take feedback in a completely different way than if you didn't have that relationship. So that's really the essence of bold kindness. And really that's the culture here at Nurse Next Door.

So just to think about your use of the words if I'm kind to a stranger, is that different than what you mean? Or are you saying, saying that I am creating a relationship with that person?

It's about creating a relationship and knowing who that person is and how you know, when you know who someone is, you know how they will take feedback, you know the way to approach and give them feedback. And you know, I just think it's, it's having that care about someone else's heart and when you do that, you can really create well, you can give someone that opportunity to really grow and develop.

As we prepared the show, you also talked about a boss who mentored you and what you got out of that. Tell us about that. Who was the boss? What happened there? What was that like?

Well, I go back to my boss, Stephen, you know, back at the Gap and, you know, that was really what I remember about that relationship is that he saw more in me than I saw in myself.

That's a great principle of a good boss, leader, coach.

Yeah. And he helped me get there by giving me experiences that allowed me to grow and develop. He wasn't telling me what I was going to do. He was giving me those opportunities in my career. And that's one of the things that I'm very proud of here at Nurse Next Door. We have so many people who have been internally promoted that start in our care services center and then, you know, look at various roles that come up in, in our heart quarters and, and yeah, we've had so many people grow and develop here at Nurse Next Door because, you know, they, they, they love the culture and they want to do more and we give them new experiences to be able to grow and develop. Mm.

It's interesting, the contrast to that, you mentioned retail. And I have a lot of background working with some different retailers. And for many, many years we worked with Nordstrom. And Nordstrom was always a great one because they were sort of more kind and human and we liked sort of the. That level of price and place that they were. And so we did business with Nordstrom, we did business with many other retailers, large and small, but we courted for a long time, Macy's and Bloomingdale's and Federate. So we finally got a deal with them and it was going to be worth millions and millions and we're really excited about it. And then as we started the process, it was just painful. It was so, so painful. And I, at some point before we were actually like shipping orders and we were just in like, the logistics of the distribution relationship, the handshaking, the EDI and all that. I was like, it was. We weren't getting anywhere. So I called our buyer and I like, can you help with this? This is like really painful and obnoxious. Can you unstick this for us? You know? And they were, they were harsh to me and I, I like, heard it and I'm like, huh? That wasn't the answer I was expecting. And so I said, you know, maybe we shouldn't do business together. And then the buyer really came unglued on me and like. And I'm like, well, if this is what it's like in the Courtship, and like, I can't imagine it's going to get any better. And this just isn't the kind of relationship we want to have. And so maybe we should just didn't do this. And she just unloaded on me and I'm like, okay. And I hung up. And it was definitely unsettling kind of a conversation. But as time went on, even later that day, I'm like, I made a really. I dodged it bullet there. I'm really glad I didn't go down that road. That's a company that's. And, and retailer suppliers. So adversarial in most cases, right? Not every case, but. But many. And, and I think also like online, the same contrast, like dealing with Amazon versus dealing with qvc. Profoundly different relationships. Amazon was like, go to hell. QVC was like, let's work it out, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And you want to do business with good people, right?

Yeah, yeah. And people who like. And look, there's many people obviously who love the Amazon way. And as a customer, I like using Amazon. I just didn't like being a business partner to them. It's. It's fascinating, though, these. Where the cultures bump up in the places where they're humanity and not humanity in the mix of it.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, when you look at the world, especially coming out of COVID you people are asking for a new way of leadership. Right. Like, people are wanting the humanity people to be going into a workplace that is, you know, cares about them, where they can feel engaged, that they're part of the success of the organization, that they're able to have the space to make decisions, not be told what to do. I think that this is moving at such a massive pace because, you know, people. And people are choosing. It's like, if. If I'm gonna not have that, I'm gonna do something on my own. And so, you know, businesses are really sitting there trying to figure things out. And I think that it's. It's this conversation that's so important.

Yeah. You shared that you lost your husband not too long ago. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so he was diagnosed with colon cancer. It's been. He passed away three years ago. And so it was five years ago that he was diagnosed. And, you know, it was obviously a massive blow to, you know, my kids and I. And, you know, it was. It was that moment of, okay, so I'm the CEO here at Nurse Next Door, and how am I going to show up and go through this experience? And, you know, am I going to do this on my own? Am I going to, you know, put on that brave face when I go to work and not show up as to how I was actually feeling? And I decided to lean into it. It was. It's one of those moments of, okay, I. If I want to have this culture of allowing people to bring their full self to work, I better show up and bring my full self. And, you know, it was that level of vulnerability that I truly showed during that time. And, you know, I. I can't tell you how much that impacted my life. And, you know, obviously, it was a very hard thing to go through, but just the level of relationships that I developed with everyone here in this organization, because I was real. I was coming to work. I was sh. I was sharing everything. I was going through all of the emotions, and everyone else started to do the same thing. They were sharing what they were going on, what was going on in their life. And, you know, we just got to know each other at a completely different level. And I. That, yes, that impacted me deeply in terms of how I want to show up as a leader, how I want to show up as a person each and every single day because you see that people are looking for, for that they, they want to be able to bring their whole self to work. And I think, you know, I need to start that and I started that. And it's been really, it's been a profound, it's made a profound impact on me.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's, I mean, you know, horrible that we ever have situations like that, but we all have things that happen. You maybe don't lose a spouse, but you have crises in your family, in your world, in your all navigate crises in some way and how you deal with them, it really matters as a leader and also how you relate what you allow for among the people around you. Right. Such a example.

Yeah. And I think like, well, here's another, here's an example also. So my whole thing too is when you, when people bring their full self to work, you hear what their dreams and goals are. And we had, we had some people who are single after Covid, they decided they wanted to get a dog. And so my whole thing was, you know what I, that, that's like having a baby. So what does that look, it's that important, right? So I was like, okay, we're going to, we're going to let you do whatever it takes to, you know, whatever. Like if you need to work from home, if you need to like have this work life balance for the first six months as you get that puppy up and going, then do that. And, and it's, and I bring that up and I bring that story up only because people are sharing those things. They're getting excited about those things. They, they know this organization is going to support them. And it's because we're, we're all showing up as, as human beings and bringing our full self to work.

I had a CEO I was coaching some years ago who really stands out around this and he was like, we've tried so many different things and we have the daily huddles and we have the dashboards and we create spiffs and games and nothing seems to really sustainably move the needle. And I just don't know how to motivate my people. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. And we have people like our purpose and they, the, like, everything seems fine on the surface, but like we have all the parts and what, what am I missing? And I said, well, what do they care about? You know, just curious. And it's like, I don't know. And I'm like, well, what's going on with them? Personally, I don't really know. Then he told me a couple sort of very surfacey facts. And I'm like, yeah, but right now. And I said, okay, well, I have some time before a meeting, so why don't I go and talk to some people before we meet and then we'll reconvene. And we had. We were going to start in the afternoon and then do the next day. And so I went around his office and I just had some quick conversation. Hey, how you doing? And what's going on? And you know, like that. And then I checked in with him and we shared a sandwich before the meeting. And I'm like, okay, who is it that is ready to start a family? I don't know. Who is really thinking about buying a house, who's never taken a trip out of the country, who wants to go back to college, get a advanced degree? I don't know. Like, that's what they care about. That's the thing that you have got to tie their job performance to that in some way. Like, and it has to be a way, but really more they have to tie it together. Right. You have to be the vehicle for that that they can see why delivering Think More productivity to you is going to help them get what they want in life. And he's like, huh? Okay. And it wasn't easy. And it's not always easy because you're focused on running the business. You're not thinking about people as human beings a lot of the time. You're thinking about, you know, people as sales producers or operations people or whatever.

You know, it's interesting though, like, I find myself, you know, I truly believe all I work on is the relationships that I have with everyone in this organization. Because what has fascinated me is the more I work on the relationships, I don't need to lead them, they lead themselves. Right. They are so excited to come to work. They are so excited to do a great job. They're so excited to not be told what to do. And I just, you know, I listen. It starts with hiring great people. So I always say, I unapologetically only work with great people. Period.

Yeah, yeah.

And when you have that, you, you just, just build relationships with them. They're going to do all the rest. I, I don't, you know, we, we figure out what the budget is at the beginning of the year, and you know what, they're going to make it happen. Because if it's not happening, they're going to figure out what they can do differently. If it is happening, they're going to do more of it and you can just get out of their way because you're in a relationship with them, they know you care and then you know what they're going to go and drive the results. And that's. It fascinates me how the more you do that. Yeah. The more space that people have and the more excited they get.

You know, I think you say something that seems really obvious on the surface there. Hire great people. Start with great. A lot of people say that. Right. Seems obvious. It's like of course, why would you hire the shitty people?

Right.

Except I think it's situational. Right. Somebody who's great for you in your environment is not great somewhere else and somebody who's great somewhere else might not be great for you. I don't think of that as like absolute or objective. Right. It's relative situation.

You have to be really clear on what your culture is.

Yeah.

And then hired to like it. You need to hire to that. You need to fit that culture. Right. Like those are the people you hire. Because you're right. Yeah. Like listen, you know, self led here might not be what someone else wants. I get it. But when you hire to the culture and you're just that that's where you spend the time to make sure that the fit is there. Then yeah. You get some incredible people that do incredible things.

It's fascinating and interesting the differences in cultures. And when you're outside of a company, like looking at many companies, it seems easier, more obvious when you're actually in it. It's a lot harder to see. I like though in particular how you chose to share a personal crisis that you were navigating and like be open about it. And I think a lot of times the leaders are. They're like, I like you don't want to know about my whatever. And in truth, like there's some amount like how much and time and energy you spend. If all you did all day was talk about the family thing, be like okay, but what about me and my job and that kind of thing? I might wonder. So there's some balance there.

I think there's always a balance. And you know. Yes. And you spend time developing those people too. So you know, you're in a relationship with them but you're also giving them the feedback to help them grow and develop. You know, I would add on to this story too. So you know, Harry did pass away and you know, so everyone saw me go through this for two years and then I could. Then all of a sudden, everyone was looking at me after because it's like, okay, what's gonna happen with Kathy's life? Life? What's she gonna do? How are you?

What's going on?

So I became very. It was like. So I. I'm like, okay, well, I. Am I just gonna see the past as the best part of my life, or am I gonna create a future that's exciting? And so I stepped into this whole version 2.0, and. And. And, you know, I've tried things that I. You know, I started playing tennis, I started playing golf. I met new people and. And stepped into a new life. I started dating. You know, it was like dating in your 50s. And. And so, you know, that was another part of it. People were watching me take something really tough and hard and actually create a new version of my life. And I think that that's also been part of leadership, right? Where you show up as a human being who's creating something new out of something that was really hard. And I bring that up as an example because I think that, you know, people watch and they learn. They learn what I know that I taught people going through that, and it's not something that we necessarily talk about, but I see people taking chances here and doing things that I don't know if they would have had the confidence to do before. But I think that we all are helping each other just be better humans.

You know, it's interesting, I'm reminded when you said that of another CEO that I coached in the middle of the COVID pandemic, when everybody was working remotely and working from home and that kind of thing. He'd carved out a part of his home for his home office, and he was doing his video meetings, that kind of thing. Like, everybody was, I have this new studio now, like, where we do all kinds of things like that. And. And, you know, it definitely evolved. But in his case, the biggest problem for him was the fact that his kids could run in, he could hear them, and he wasn't separated from the young kids. And he's like, I'm just exhausted and stressed out and interrupted and distracted. And I find this whole working this way is just really a problem. And I just want to go back to the office. And he and a few people who had private offices soon, soon did. But he was like, what do I do about this with the company? And I'm like, why don't you be honest about it? Because many people have even less resource than you do. And I shared with him about A that I was coaching on one of our teams and she was living in a studio apartment in San Francisco with her husband and she was working from a closet. Like not even a very walk in closet, right. Like currently I'm like, where are you? And she's like, oh, I'm in a closet because we have a studio apartment in San Francisco and we're going to move. But you know, like for months and months there she was. And I talked to another woman in New York and she's like, I live alone in an apartment in New York and I'm trying to keep my company together. Right. Like just the lonely, like whatever it is. And like be honest with people. Tell them what you're going through and let them share with you about what they're dealing. Because you're all dealing with like a disruption. You're all dealing with dislocation and not your routine and comfort like that. And he like did. And it had tremendous result for them. Now some people left the company as they navigated working away and working together again. And. But they, but that like the openness opened up a conversation about it so they could evolve their work approaches collectively.

Right? Yeah, I, I love that that came out of COVID It's. You know, we can be real. You know, you can see into someone's room, right? That you can see the. I love. Yeah. Let the kids run into the room. Let the kid, like, let's. Let's be in the real life situations that we all have. And I don't know, there's this sense of. You just feel a deeper connection with someone when that is allowed to happen.

You know, there's a. In our. You probably do daily huddles and meetings and things like that. And many of our teams open with a one word open or a one word close. And I don't think a lot of people realize the one word open is actually a pretty useful mind. Mindfulness practice to transition into a meeting. Because you go from maybe you had a great morning, maybe you had a really awful morning, and then you're like suddenly in a meeting, but in the background of your head is still all the feeling intenseness of the traffic and the family and whatever went nuts this in the morning and you're carrying all that and then people are trying to interact with you at work and you're still there. But when you could say honestly in your one word open, I'm stressed or I'm tired or I'm annoyed this morning, when you can be really honest about it, like you can actually Transition, you can move into that meeting by acknowledging it. It sort of sets it aside, it brackets it, if you will. Yeah. I don't think a lot of people realize that that is kind of, that kind of a transitional mindfulness practice. Just one word, you know, that can. Boom. Move you into great example. The topic of the thing. So talk to us about bold kindness. What does it mean and look like and what are your lessons for CEOs in the book?

Well, you know, I talked about being self led, you know, having bold conversations.

Yeah.

In a relationship with someone. And so therefore you can have a conversation that, where you, where you show kindness and care about someone with someone. I, I would also add, you know, we talk a lot here at Nurse Next Door about mentorship. And what I mean with that is, you know, leadership is, it still suggests top down, right. Like there's still this notion of hierarchy in an organization. And I think when you talk about mentorship, it's about human beings coming together. And you know, I get to share my experiences. So I will talk with people about, you know, if they're having an issue with something, I will give them my thoughts of what I've experienced in my career to help, you know, navigate that situation that they're working through. And I think it's like it's about sitting beside someone and being human being and sharing just thoughts and ideas. And you know, that means we all share our thoughts and ideas and we all have different skill sets. And if we're just helping each other through those mentorship conversations, that's a big part of this culture also. And I think it's something that, you know, I think also like we're moving that like the word manager we don't use anymore. I think leadership is still there, but I think mentorship is happening more and more and I think we're going to see even more of that in the future.

You know, you mentioned something really interesting in there. You said, come alongside someone. And I think a lot of times we sit opposite, right. I look at the camera, you're there. I sit on one side of the desk, you sit on the other. We talk about things and it creates a kind of an adversarial transaction. But if you physically move or you conceptually move alongside someone, looking together with them at the same thing, there's a different, there's a change in the, in the way that you're interacting with them that is real. And you could practice it just by doing that, like move over, say, oh, let me look at that with you and, and Come sit next to them and see how it shifts. And then you can, as you develop a skill in it, just do it. It, like mentally without necessarily needing to change your physical position.

Yeah. Well, so I have a desk in my office, and I haven't sat at it, Sat at it in eight years. I have a pink couch, and I sit on the pink couch. And that's my invitation. The door is always open, and it's my invitation to always have people come and sit beside me and be in a conversation and be in a conversation about what's happening with work. Be in a conversation about what's happening in their life.

I love that. I liked. I still sit at a desk. I have a desk, but for like, more than 20 years ago, I put a couch in my office because I saw somebody else have a couch in a sitting area they talked to years ago. And I'm like, as soon as I could get an office big enough, I'm going to have a couch always in my office and a place. And then I ended up, I realized, oh, I kind of like sitting there, too. So I'll have a desk for certain things. But a lot of the time to talk to people or even sometimes to work, I'll sit on the couch or the chair next to it. And it's. It changes things, right?

Yeah, it does. And it's pretty amazing how people will open up when you're sitting on a couch with them. And just the. The level of vulnerability that people will show, it's. It's pretty incredible.

Now, I suppose if you sat in the chair next to it and then asked them to lay down on the couch, it'd be a whole other relationship. How long have you been feeling this way?

Yeah, Right.

Tell me about your mother. Oh, awesome. So lead by example. Come alongside people, mentor them, learn, get to know them as human beings. I think they're like, in some cultures, certainly in the United States, we're sort of afraid of probing into personal things. We're afraid of being inappropriate, of doing it. But I think if you're not like, interrogating them, how. What's going on and how's everything at home that's different than. Tell me about your relationship.

Well, yeah, and I think it starts with me, right? Like, if I'm sharing my life and I'm opening myself up, other people do it, right. That it just. It naturally happens. So it starts with ourselves.

Yeah. Well, so the book is Bold Kindness. The website is Bold Kindness. We'll throw the link on the screen and in the show notes as well. Bold kindness.com is is where to go to read more and follow up and like that kind of thing. I've so enjoyed having this conversation. I think such an important topic to bring some of that vibe to your leadership style and to your organization can make a massive difference. Thanks for coming talking with us about it today.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Yeah, thanks to my friend and mentor Verne Harnish, who created the whole scaling up network and framework that we use for all of our clients and the team at store on who gets our show ready and out the door every week and before and after like all that. So storyon co is those guys. Thanks again everyone for watching for listening until we talk to you next time. Keep scaling.