Dr. Robert Hernandez, a Jungian psychologist turned leadership coach, explains how emotional intelligence transforms how leaders communicate and drive change. He walks through four coaching stories, including one about a leader named Lisa who learned to channel her anger into authentic passion, and shows how to read emotions as data instead of obstacles.
Chapters
Well, there we are once again. Hey everybody. We're talking about emotional intelligence and leadership today. We're talking about waking up your emotional intelligence to be a better leader. Oh, this is a subject that's near and dear to me. Working on your self awareness and your appreciation of others is a great thing to do. I'll get into our guest in just a second. Let me just say my name is Bill Gallagher. I'm the scaling coach and host of the Scaling Up Business podcast. Our show comes to you every week with something to do to elevate your company, get your people dialed in, get the strategy leveled up, execute better, improve the cash model and elevate your leadership in the process to make it easier, faster and fun to grow your business. So that's all our show. ScalingCoach.com is our website where you'll find links and things like that. All our other tools are live programs, that kind of thing. All that more 450 plus of these episodes. All that@scalingcoach.com so I am joined now by Dr. RB he is a Jungian trained psychologist, works in the world of business doing leadership development work and like that. And he's got some work to share with us today on developing ourselves and our leadership and that kind of thing. He joins us from the northwest of Spain, just above Portugal there where I. I understand you spent quite a bit of time there. Welcome to the show.
Yeah, welcome. Thank you, Bill, for having me. Yes. Actually I live here part time, so I'm actually in my home office here in Galicia.
Awesome. Love it. I've been there once.
Great.
A few times, Alicia. Once that I can. Yeah, just once as a kid. Portugal, more recently. Anyway, I love all of Spain. I lived in Barcelona for a while, so on the other corner, on the opposite side. Yeah. So we're going to get into the show and your stories and like the core of it. But let's start off with kind of your background as a psychologist, working in with organizations, talk about your interest in it, how you got involved. Like give us a little bit of that before we, before we get into some of the core ideas and stories here.
Sure. Actually, all this started in 2005 where a friend of mine who's also a psychologist, she thought that I would be good to date someone who owned a coaching boutique, coaching and training company. So I went to a party, was a cocktail party in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and that didn't work, but I was invited to an audition and to be an audition for this coaching and training company. And so I did. I Want to try something different than clinical work. And I went, I auditioned. I was first told that I was too much of a shrink and that I needed to have more energy. And, and so after learning how to do that, being trained a little bit, I ended up working with this company alongside my private practice. And in 2018, I was approached to buy the company since the old owner was retiring. So I ended up doing so, and I'm the owner now of influence. And so that's kind of how I got into the industrial psychology aspect of the work, as we call it.
You know, it's, it's. It's interesting to hear that, like, going from clinical to industrial work to organizational work is definitely a shift, right? From.
Yes.
And yet the human beings are the same, right?
Exactly, yes. I'm glad that you're seeing it that way. So really it doesn't. It changes a little bit, human beings.
In relationship to each other. Well, the objectives are different. Like, you know, like, in the one I want to be happy, in the other, I need to have my business succeed. Right. And I need to succeed leader in the other one, you know, you probably have more like, well, maybe you should quit that job.
Exactly. And that's happened in my work.
You know, the thing, I think our big idea here is that if you want to develop your business, you got to develop yourself. You got to develop yourself and your leaders. We say, I say all the time, that before you even try to develop your leaders, you might want to take a look in the mirror and figure out what you're doing and what's going on with you. And it's always the first place to start. And I know in the work there's this idea of, well, like, there's me and then there's all these other objects in the world. But the separation of the two is not entirely clear. And the connection is. Is hard to, like, figure out very clearly. Like, there's. There's someone operating in the world, but where's the sep. Like, you know, the world and them are in a dance with each other.
Right, Exactly. Yeah. So underneath, we're all connected. Right. And so there. And I think that's what you're talking about is this connection where, whether we're conscious of it or not, we are connected. So as a leader, you have to understand you're connected not only to those you're leading, but even to the organization itself and what the organization stands for. So I always like to look at the organization as a living being as well as. And I analyze the organization as Such. So it is about how do you manage that dance, who's leading the dance and where are you both going to dance? The same, the same type of music even. So it's great that you brought it that way.
Yeah. And the other thing that we talk about is the way that we see the world. Right. Like we all see the world in a particular way. It shapes the world that we move in and the way that we move in the world and yet we all see it a little bit differently.
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Perception is everything, isn't it? So we all have different perceptions. We come from different angles.
Yeah. Well, so let's get into some of the stories that you shared as we got ready to prepare the show. We're really looking at leadership and I, and I love to begin there. You know, we start with some ideas here, but let's talk. Tell us about Lisa first.
Well, Lisa, it's interesting. She had a lot of passion and power when I spoke to her individually. And then she attended our program which is leading with essential presentation skills. And I just, I was telling Wanda earlier, did this recently, last month in Chicago for a large company there. And one of the things that was interesting to me, she was actually the president of her platform. And of course I changed the names for the sake of confidentiality, but she was presenting. And what really struck me was I saw she was holding back. And as I was sitting there and I see that she's holding back, I stop her. And when I do these trainings, I'm very dramatic and I say action and I'll say cut. And so she stopped and she looked at me and she said, you know, I don't know what's wrong with me. I really care about this topic, but yet I know that I'm not giving it my all. So I said, okay, let's stop. We'll take a one minute break. I pulled her to the side and we spoke a little bit about that. And she really surrounded with this whole idea of being judged by her own team. And again, she's the president of this platform, so she felt like she had to become smaller because her team was there and she didn't know how to be so powerful. And so when we went back and of course I yield action again. She got up and she was much more. Not forceful, but passionate. And a lot of the times people confuse the two. They think in order for me to be compassionate, I have to be louder, I have to give a lot more energy. That's not necessarily the case. There has to be a sense of authenticity. And you draw people into your message. So even as you're talking, you don't have to be so. So strong and bold about it. You could bring them in. And that's exactly what she did. And it really showed how passionate she was. And by doing that, a lot of the people on the platform, the feedback was they now believed more the steps that they had to take as a team, where before they were kind of, like, not sure where they were really going as a platform. And after she kind of shared because it was a live message. It was something not that she did for the program. It was something that she's really doing, and she was able to bring them on and get them to buy in, if you will, or really just accept where the passion was and where the vision was taking them and they were able to get excited again about their mission.
Yeah, I love that we start with passion. And as I heard the story, I'm reminded of a time when I moved, I got a new job, and I was going to lead a particular part of a company and start a new area and that kind of thing. And I went in to practice presentation before giving it to our chairman. And I used words in it that my boss found inappropriate or objectionable. And they. It wasn't like f words or that kind of thing, but I. But I used words that were more salesy or hyperbolic. And he, like, dressed me down. He said, you can't talk like that here. You've left a sales organization and you're now at the corporate headquarters entrusted with a very important piece of business, and you need to sound like a serious person, right? And I. I was embarrassed and kind of humbled by it. I didn't just embrace the coaching, okay? I got. I. That's what I said on the outside, but on the inside, I was embarrassed, right? And I'm like, okay, got it. But then I proceeded to spend the next couple of years being very suppressed, right? Instead of the passionate, alive person that got the promotion for that stuff, then I, like, dumbed it down a little bit. And I noticed, actually through a number of things, I decided that to be a professional business person, I needed to sound more responsible, right? And I could put that hat on, too. Like that thing that, like, being unleashed and passionate and playful or like, that was suppressed. And, you know, he didn't say, you know, if you do that, maybe you should acknowledge that you're that kind of. So today I would go, oh, you know, I notice I'm a little salesy. You might notice that too. You, you just like, I'm, I'm passionate, you know, like that self awareness. And I think that the thing like you're, you're talking to Lisa and then she sees, oh, I'm doing that. And so the first is kind of that self awareness and acknowledgement, and then set that aside, bracket it, whatever, and then play through and let the passion out. Which I think is a powerful lesson for us. Right. Notice what you're doing. And when you go in your own head versus your message and your audience.
Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting, when you said that story, I thought of when Oprah Winfrey worked for 60 Minutes and the same thing kind of happened there. They, she came across too emotional and too soft, and they wanted her to be more, you know, cold in the facts and.
Right.
So one of the things that you raised a really good point here, because I, I consider that as part of language. For example, when you go to different countries, there's different ways of speaking, and it's not only the, the vocabulary or the words that are being used, it's the tonation and how it's said and all of that. So I think if you go to a different organization where the culture is different, because that's what it sounds like, they had a different culture from the more salesy culture that you came from, then it's a really think about it more as maybe I, I'm in a different culture. It's like a different country. How do I speak in a way that they're going to resonate and understand? And this is funny because anyone that's bicultural or in my case, I'm tricultural, understands this. So if I'm in Miami, I'm going to talk a very certain way. And everybody that goes to Miami, they understand that we're loud and we talk very fast, we talk with our hands and. And yet I come near to Spain and it's still Spanish, but yet they're not as loud and they don't speak as fast. So if I want to get my point across and want people to understand, then I know I have to slow it down and pronounce all the letters and even the theta with the season, the Z's. And so it's just a way of kind of how do I adapt and shift, which is also part of being flexible or having that flexible ego that I call it. So it's interesting you brought that up.
Well, every place, right. Every company, you go to a new, a new country and you know that things are a little bit different. You Go to a new city, you know, but. And the same is true with companies. And sometimes we, we make the mistake of assuming that it's the same. But. But we use different language, different terminology, different things. We have different values in all of them. The joke in. Or the, the common view, I don't, I'm not sure it's accurate in linguistics, is that the, the Eskimos have a lot of words for snow, and the French have a lot of words for love. And they, they identify that sort of different priorities between the two cultures. But everybody has different things that are okay and what is celebrated and like that. You don't walk around probably that part of Spain saying Dalai all the time, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a little bit different. And they speak galego here, which is its own language, and so it's very different. Exactly.
Yeah. It's a, It's a great place to begin. Like, being unleashed is one of the first things that we talk about with leadership development is letting that passion out because it's, it's like where we want to strike that emotional core. And you can't have other people get emotionally excited about something of you're not excited. And if you're suppressing it, others won't. Will suppress it also.
Exactly. And, and that's, that's another good point here. It's really about how do you, in order to be this authentic, how do you make amends with the differences in culture and in culture, meaning organizational culture, even departmental culture, people get promoted all the time, and, and they're promoted to a different department, and they don't realize even though they're in the same company, it's a different culture. And so how do you. How do you become aware of how you are, which you had mentioned, how are you aware with your environment, which is also part of emotional intelligence, being sensitive to your surroundings and to other people? And then how do you make amends? How do you bring those together? So it's interesting, in your example, you talked about that you were. You felt repressed because you had to be serious. So in other words, how do you connect this passionate sales kind of bill with this other bill that could be more responsible and more conservatively serious, if you will. How do you bridge that? And that's something that's part of the work with many leaders. And. Which is another example that I gave out with heading into, I believe it was Bill that he talked about, how to really bridge this message and not be a mailbox leader, I call it, which is a Leader that just takes what's given to them and then they immediately share it with the others. So how do you speak your own language, have your own point of view.
And hold that, if you would. And let's talk first. We'll keep that as the teaser. Let's talk about what you're excited about in the first place, the why. And you shared a story with us about Paul in, in this regard because I think like we've been talking about bringing self awareness and then letting it out, letting the passion show. But what is it that you're passionate about? Is. Is the why work? Right? So Verne talks about it's something. It's a what that you're actually passionate about. But, but we, we commonly know it as why, the thing that you care about. So tell us the story, Paul.
Yeah, so with Paul, he was. He's been a leader for a while, so he's a seasoned leader. And he had people that were responding to him with leading change and different organizations because he bounced around different companies. And the nice thing about our clients is they usually take us with them. So in Paul's case, he again had to lead change or do a cultural change in this organization. But he didn't really know how to express this why, why do we need to change which. And even going deeper, what's going to happen after the change, which is what I call the end game or the vision. So there he had to really get connected with that emotional quality of the why. A lot of times we hear things like the why that makes you cry, for example, as a way of kind of expressing that there has to be some reason that kind of pushes you with the heart and pushes you towards that end game or towards that vision in the end. And that's what he had to struggle with because of course he. He was great with getting people to lead to this change. And he would be great on message and the message that was given to him, but it really was about himself getting in touch with the why and expressing that from himself so he could come across as more authentic and much more powerful. And he was really grateful with the work that we did because it got him to really think about, okay, I don't need to just pass something given to me. I can really express something that's honest and that's with integrity and with my heart on my sleeve, if you will. And, you know, that's not easy for everybody. A lot of times, especially I work with a lot of engineers. And this is not to pick on engineers, but one of the Big struggles with engineers that we've worked with through many years and, and in personal coaching that I've done with them, it's really about how to get in touch with that emotional side and the relational side with themselves and with others, and how to really express something that excites them. So I think the first step is, why do you even like this message that you have to give? What excites you about that message? And if we get to the point where nothing, I mean, they're still kind of dry as a bone, then we have to kind of start thinking about, is this really the right fit for you of what you're doing and what you're leading? And that happens with a couple of people that we've had to engage with. Sure. And they've even had to leave their positions, but they leave it with a sense of honesty and integrity, which, you know, they. They're really grateful and they. That they benefit from that type of work. But in this case, he was able to kind of get in touch with what excited him about the work work and then put that excitement into the message so he could lead everyone to that leading change that he had to do. So it was a. It's a really great program. One of my favorites, actually, with the leading change course.
You know, when we're working with leaders and they. And we go to the purpose, the why of the company, we're like, what do you actually care about here? Like, what about this business? What about your customers, your products, your services? What do you actually care about? What are you passionate about? What do you feel strongly about? And we start to circle around the difference that we make in the world and what we're lit up about. But sometimes you're right, people have trouble locating anything. And I begin to suspect sometimes that if people are there, that it's more of an issue of. It's more of an issue that they're just suppressed in general. And so I'll ask them, well, tell me anything that you care about, anything that you could get excited you're passionate about in any area of life. You know, is it some sports activity or is it, you know, some hobby or your family, your children, you know, whatever, and start to let them bring up any feelings and then move to see, okay, now what do you care about? About at work? And. And I think there's a connection between all of those things. And we start to see, get in touch with it, let leave a little room to feel something, to connect with some feeling where we thought we needed to be logical. About everything.
Yeah, and I'm glad that you said that, because I look at it like there's a disconnection. And I love how you always talk about connection, because in this case, they were connected to other areas of passion, like maybe sports or their family or things are a hobby. And yet you got them to reconnect to that. Okay, so now that we know that you can reconnect to passion now, let's see, we can move it a little bit and then see about that and how, where that takes us. So it's really, I look at a lot of this as, are they connected? Are they connected? You know, the ego connected to the self as I like to visualize it, or are they connected to the passion in their work? Are they. Are they connected to their team from an interpersonal standpoint? And so I really like the word connection that you keep bringing up.
Well, you know, for our listeners. Right. You said at the beginning, like, what, what makes you cry or brings tears here as a kid, right. We cry from pain, we cry from sadness, but as we get to be adults, we cry a lot more often when we are moved, when we're touched, when we're inspired by things. We cry when we're humbled, when we find something beautiful. Right. And that more often makes us cry. And, and maybe I'm a big crier, but not everybody is necessarily has that room to just let it out. But, but what, like, what is it that. That, you know, brings a little moistness to the eye that makes you feel something even if you don't want to let people see it or you try to, like, hide it back. That the thing that's cool about that, Right. Is that that's where decision and action arises. Yeah. Right. We make decisions based on these emotional feelings, and our actions are driven towards, you know, having more of one emotion less of another. Right. Like they propel us into. Into action.
And again, you said the word propel, and I really liked it because that's what I was thinking of. I was thinking emotions could be like the gas in the engine and the rational side of the mind, where is the steering wheel? So, but if we don't, we just sit in the car and nothing happens. We can turn the steering wheel. We're not going to get anywhere. But the emotion really is that energy that propels us, like you said, or moves us forward. And so it's really important for leaders to understand that, yeah, they've been probably functioning quite well or they're getting by with the logical side and being rational. But yet, when they get to a certain stage of leadership, that's not going to get them where they need to go. They need to be able to tap into that gas and really help them. It's that energy that's going to push them forward. But like with anything else, if you light a match, the gas can blow up and your car's on fire. So it's really about how to manage these things, how to manage the rational side and how to also manage that emotional side that's going to provide value. So it's really how to harness it is the way that I would look at it.
Well, and just to clarify, we're not. I don't think you're saying like, all emotion, all passion, all. There is a place for the planning and the coordination and that kind of thing. And that's a good place to go to. Your other story you were about to tell about Bill and on that side of leadership. So.
Yeah, well, Bill, again, he was in charge of this department and this team, and yet he ended up taking this leading with EQ course that we offered. And it was about that how to know when is an appropriate place and time to include the emotions. And one thing that I always say and clarify with leading with eq, just with emotional intelligence in general, emotions can be viewed as data. So emotions are information that you receive. And the way I always like to look at it is it's not an either or. It's not like rationalization versus emotions or being logical versus emotions. It's really about they both kind of come together and they offer you information. So it's about, how can you be objective and look at both and say, okay, now that I have both sides of the coin, how am I going to move forward? How am I going to lead others to move forward? So in this with Bill, for example, it was interesting because again, this is this whole thing of being disconnected and thinking of possibly of, you know, I don't want to be emotional. I'm not an emotional guy. And he really kind of resisted the program at the time and he thought that I was trying to get him to be more emotional. And I said, you know, think of emotions as information. I said, when you get upset over watching something, injustice in the news, do you. What do you think about that? And he says, oh, well, I get upset because it's not fair. And I said, well, you're having an emotional reaction. So that's kind of bringing up the information that you strongly feel like there's some injustice occurring. And that's going to help you to take some action. And so kind of look at it like, it's not that you're going to be emotional when it's not appropriate. It's really about how can you take that information that the emotions are providing you and then using that information the same way that you would use logic in your decision making. And that's one of the things that I really liked about leading this class because, you know, I could see him now. He's kind of this big, burly guy, and he's a plant manager and he's in charge of all these other engineers. And he was, I'm not going to be emotional. And here I am in the front of this room, and to him I probably was way too emotional. And because I'm really excited when I facilitate a program. So I said, think of it as information, Bill, and how are you going to use that information to really help you make decisions and lead your team? And then everything shifted from there.
Yeah. You know, it's funny that there's more and more being written today about emotional agility and emotional fitness. In fact, my wife Lori, as some folks have know in our audience, has been doing a lot of work in emotional fitness lately. And there's a. There's a lot of power in having, like, facility to move through it. I can cry in an instant and laugh in the next, and they're all fully authentic and, like, real in that moment. And I just don't stay with them for very long. Like, I just move through them and, you know, if I talk about something, you know, I could get very emotional about one subject or another, and then I could laugh at something else and, you know, a minute later and. And I think that we. We so suppress them. A lot of times, especially in certain situations, we feel like, oh, it's not appropriate to be emotional here, or I can't be emotional as a man, or I can't be emotional as a manager. Like, I have to do that, and I'm not an emotional person. Then. Then it gets collapsed with identity. Right. Like Bill said, you. I'm not an emotional person. Right. Like that's a thing. No, of course you're an emotional person. We're beings are emotional. The AI ChatGPT is not an emotional person.
And that's incredible. That's another. That's another program on its own. I'm really excited about it, actually.
But even. But even that will mimic emotion, right? Like in. In tone. So becoming facile with that, knowing when and how to use it, to be free with it, not triggered by it, not suppressing any of it. That's powerful, Stu, and so important in your communication.
Yes. And what I want to say about that, it's used the words agility. And a lot of the times people are thinking of lability. So labile is when you can't control your emotions and you go from crying to laughing to angry. And that's when the emotions kind of take over. And I even, because I'm Jungian trained, we call it like a possession. So a complex kind of takes over. And so the way I kind of like to look at that is if you could kind of give yourself a space where you could observe what comes up. So in that moment, you kind of can sense that you're going to have an emotion, that you're going to cry, where in that moment you know that laughter is coming on. And that's kind of. That space is so important to have. And I know for a lot of leaders, they are kind of terrified of being in a situation where their emotions just kind of take over. And I think that's the defense towards that because they're trying, like you said, they're repressing it because they're just kind of scared or they don't know how to handle. They don't have the tools to handle being emotional. And we run into that a lot. Now, of course, in my work with leaders, I don't go into the whole analytical side of psychology because that's too deep and that's not appropriate in that moment. But what I do like to do is give them those tools where they can give themselves a space and to just kind of at least see and observe that it's happening, that the emotions are coming up, and then channel it. So I like that word channeling, because it really helps them to kind of take that just like the gas and use it to really make a presentation that is impactful and dynamic or use it to inspire people to take action. Because you're going to need to be connected with emotions if you're going to be an excellent and charismatic leader.
You know, my simple hack is to simply name it, to call it out. Right. So if I suddenly find myself moved in front of people or whatever, I will just say, wow. Oh, wow. That. Yeah, I. I'm feeling something there. Sorry, I get a little emotional or, you know, I'll just say things like that to acknowledge it rather than try to suppress it or hide it, which people can kind of see something's going on anyway. I guess I really care about that. Or, wow, that's a lie for me. You know, there are certain stories that I tell again and again over the years, and every time I tell them, I'm, like, right back there in the middle, and I feel it all over again. And. And it's not like a thing described in the past. It's me. It's again, it's right now, and I'm there.
Yeah.
And then I just have to say, wow, like, I still feel something every time I talk about that, you know, and then, boom, I'm not stuck there anymore. Then I can move through it, and so can my team, the audience, you know, the client, like, whatever. They're also not stuck in that place. Like, wow, what was going on? Is everything okay? Is he safe? Like, you know. Yeah.
And you. And by even naming it, that's creating a space. So if I'm. If you're talking and I'm in your world and I'm experiencing exactly what you're saying, some, you know, a person that doesn't have that space will think, oh, my gosh, I'm Bill. I'm Right now. I'm Bill right now. And by calling Bill again, then I'm separated back, and now I'm Robert and you're Bill. So there's a space between us. So I really like that. That's another way of creating that distance is by just naming it. And I think what's important by you showing that, by expressing that story and you're writing it again and you're seeing it and experiencing it emotionally, you are taking those people with you, and that's what makes for a great storyteller. So I think that that's excellent that you're able to do that. And I think people, they go with you, they're inspired by that, or they'll learn from that story, and they're right there with you. And I think that's compelling. Yeah.
Yeah. And. And, like, you know, it's a muscle. Right. Like, being able to let yourself fully experience something rather than speaking about it and staying disconnected from it mentally as you talk about something is powerful, but it does take a little bit of practice to. To share it fully rather than stay detached from it. Right. Like, there's one thing in talking about your business, about the passion and creating, like, how you set out to do something you really loved or take on a task or a challenge, you know, and then there's like, well, then I got a promotion, and then I did this, and, you know, like, I can adopt a little bit less authentic tone and I can go, you know.
Or.
I can really let it out, right? Like I can remember vividly the day my son was born and how I felt or that moment that I saw my wife walk into a room. And I'm actually more emotional about it today than I was in the moment at the time. It was just like a surprise, right? But like can you just connect with something and share it, right. It's powerful. The other thing that you said there, I think is really cool is when you do that, you make something available for the other side, the other person. So they now have an experience and access of. Not the same thing, right? They weren't there the day my son was born, but they have things they care deeply about, right? And they're suddenly reminded of, oh, there's the time that I felt like that, you know, super so powerful as a leader to find facility with these things, right. Just like you can. People just want to be with you because they want to have that freedom and that range.
And I think that's part of what charisma is about. So if you are able to bring people in, you already have that charismatic energy that people talk about. And I do just want to say that they. People might not have been there when your son was born, but because we're energetic beings, we feel it. So even now as you got emotional, I was feeling it. And so it's really about allowing people to kind of feel what you are expressing and communicating. So I think that's important when, when there's a disconnection, they don't feel it and then there's no, you haven't let them in, so there's nowhere to take them. There's no buy in or anything like that.
The other thing I think to connect is it's, I mean to talk about the birth of a child is a, is like an easy, easy state. We know we're going to feel something unless we're a total sociopath. But go then to business, right? I have spoken frequently about a time that I was on the verge of business failure and then in turn personal failure, bankruptcy and so on. And I faced that for all and I was grappling with that and I was terrified and I was terrified of failing in business, right. But I'd failed before, so it wasn't so terrifying. But then extrapolating it, right? The whole human isn't just the workplace, but then also the thought that my, I might have a personal bankruptcy, I might lose my house, my wife might leave me and then I might be a weekend dad. Right. And then again, we, like, come full circle. We see the whole human and the feeling is right there. And why do I care so much about a business failure? Right. Like, why I didn't fail. I talked about that before. I won't repeat the whole story again. But, like, moving through that was so powerful to rally my team and tell them, here's what's going on. They were like, oh, we just got real. Right. Opening, of course, then just to complete that thought. The other thing that was really important was my stand, my commitment that I was not going to quit, that I was not going to fail, that I was going to fight, you know, Braveheart style and not give up. Which I think is a good segue to your story. Let's go back to your stories. You talked about Jane and what are we actually building? What is the plan? What do we care about? So talk to tell that story. Yeah.
So Jane, she was somebody. Again, we've been talking about disconnected leadership. She did not. She couldn't see the vision where she was going to take these folks. And so it was really about how to express that in a way that people could also see it. So when I talk about people that are connected to their vision, can they actually see it? First of all, because you have to see it before you express it. And I'm sure that Disney, when he created Disney World, Walt Disney, really saw the park. And some people thought he was a little loony about doing that, but that's the only way of creating this powerful vision. So with Jane, it was really about leading with strategic thinking, which was the program that she participated in. And what I really liked about this is that she really tried and stretched herself so that she could have a compelling vision. And she had to first take time to see it herself because she just couldn't. And it's so easy a lot of the times for people to just hand it to you. People think the CEO is at the top of the organization, and most likely the CEO is. However, the CEO answers to the board. So the board is also going to challenge the CEO. Well, what is your vision? Where are you going to take this company? And if you can't see it, you can try to say all kinds of things. They're going to sense it because as we said earlier, the vision and something that you see, it's something that you describe. But because you're actually there in the mobile like you were a few minutes ago, then you're. They'll. They're able to feel that energy that you're seeing. And we're not saying that you always have to be excited and high pitched. You can also be talking about a vision that is probably not exciting. Maybe it's a vision that's going to provoke people into action because a lot of the times it could be that maybe the companies, everybody thinks it's great and we're, we're doing well. You know, why are we having this leading change when we're doing so well? Well, we're at the verge of a precipice. That's why we need to shift gears and take this company into a different direction. So there are times where you might have to, you see something, but it's scary. It might provoke your audience, but yet they need to feel that, experience that, so then you can take them in that other direction. So I think with Jane, it was really about how to first see that, see the vision of where you're going and then how to communicate that in a way. Again, that's connected. Using that word, I think that's our thread word this whole time is how to be connected to your vision, to yourself and to your those that you're leading is how to maintain that connection.
Yeah. So just for our viewers and listeners, we've done a couple different shows on this idea of creating a vision with different perspectives and approaches. Jennifer Hoodie recently with her work Conscious Copy that helps leaders and companies to create a vivid vision in the style of Jim Collins and Cameron and Brian Scudamore. And we've done several shows with Cameron Herold who wrote a book on vivid vision and Jim Collins talks about it. And then we've also done a couple shows with Brian Scudamore who's grown the 1-800-got junk company and the O2E brands, the related companies using largely a big, big driver of his process is vivid vision, which is probably the principal thing that we use as the first cut with our leaders is let's just create a vision that is shared by the leader and that other people then start to help you fulfill. That is the future. And then in our own leadership training, we're forever talking about how to create a vision and distinguish it from the present reality as a. Or as an. Or I can't say it, that's funny. As an oratory tool. Right. To speak and engage people and communicate something effectively. Right.
One of the things that we do in our program is we have a whiteboard and the person that has the vision, let's say if the, the CEO is in the program, they're going to draw whatever they're seeing and then people come up with different colored markers and they start to draw their own vision by the end of a couple hours. It's amazing what get drawn and how everything is starts to interact with each other. It's fascinating to watch.
Nice. Nice. So before we move on, a couple of reminders for our listeners and viewers. If you want to find out about our resources, if you want to send us a note, anything like that, infocalingcoach.com is an email for us. Any kind of feedback if we can help you find a coach in your area. We have 250 coaches around the world, so we've got all that kind of stuff. And Our website@scalingcoach.com is, is where there's all that info. And then a couple shout outs to Wanda Mitchell, our show producer in the background getting shows ready, guests ready, things scheduled. My friend and mentor, creator of the whole Scaling up framework and the Rockefeller habits that preceded it, Vern Harnish, who built a lot of the foundation, a lot of the work that we do. And then to the folks at Podfly Productions who get our show ready every week and out the door on the audio and show notes and things like that. So I think there's a couple things that you've hit on that I want to, before we run out of time, just kind of recap on. So we've just been talking about creating and clarifying the vision. Right. There's that first part that we really want to do is what are you up to? What are you building for the future? And that's the thing that I kind of hear in your last story. And then we talked about connecting with other human beings and it's through other people that you're going to do your biggest work. I like to think of like, what if all of our work was like the, the famous, what you call it, the church in Barcelona, like the Sagrada Familia that takes over a hundred years, that isn't finished long after the creator is dead and gone. They're still building and finishing it, I think to this day. Almost done now. But you know, what if, what if your business was like that kind of a work that would be carried on long after it's going to happen with a lot of people and a clear vision. Right. Those two things don't create such a monumental work. If you ever, if you haven't been, if you ever get a chance to visit, that is a stunning thing to walk through and experience in Barcelona. And then this last thing that where we started, the show was about like being unleashed and passionate in your communication so people can really feel and hear what, how you feel about things and be called into action themselves. I think those are my big takeaways. So did we miss anything there?
No, I think it's exactly that and I think it's really about how can you connect with yourself, really be aware of that connection and then be able to connect with others. But if you try to maintain a disconnection within yourself, thinking that's going to work because it's worked for, for so long for you is as you move up in leadership, it's not going to. It's really about having that awareness of yourself, being in touch with those different parts of you, that serious part, the salesy side, the passionate side, and then from there having that strong connection with those that you're leading. And so I think that that's really big and that's what we talk about as well.
Well, if you want to know more about Dr. Arby's work and his company and the programs that he's referenced, that kind of thing, you're going to find it@influenz.com there it is on the screen. If you're watching, it'll be in the show notes as well. InfluenzaWith an s.com is the web address for it and you can find listings of the work that they do and information about his team and all that there's. I want to thank our viewers and listeners for joining us again this week. We bring our show to you at least once a week with something to do with the world of leadership and scaling up your business. Thanks again everyone for watching, for listening. Please share the show with somebody else if it was valuable for you so they get valuable and you increase your impact in the world. Thanks again everyone for watching. We'll talk to you again next time. Keep scaling up.
