Negotiation expert Keld Jensen argues people negotiate 8,000 to 10,000 times a year, most without realizing it. He pushes past zero-sum tactics toward empathy and collaboration, introducing concepts like trust currency and negotiating the process itself rather than just the deal.
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$14.95 per month (referred to as 14.95 a month).
2023-11-10.
Negotiation Essentials.
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Live again, we're talking about finding common ground. How do you connect with people, find that common ground so that negotiations turn out and everything's a negotiation, right? I mean, we think of formal negotiations, we think of governments, we think of key partnerships and agreements. But where we're going to eat lunch can be a negotiation. Sometimes in my marriage, finding common ground is a critical thing. 29 years. Hey everybody, I'm Bill Gallagher, Scaling coach and host of the Scaling Up Business podcast. Our show comes to you every week, usually a couple times a week. And we're this is right about the 500th episode. Now we've been around for a little bit and I'm super love our audience and our guests and our show and like that kind of thing. So I'm excited to bring that to you. Of course, it's all underwritten and supported by the coaching and workshop business that goes along with it. So if you could use some help growing your company, you would love weekly support, lessons, coaching, accountability, all that and more. That's our coaching program we call the Growth Navigator Coaching program. We give you a meetup every week with a little bit of coaching and support for your business to get your people strategy, execution, cash the leadership right and get growing and achieve and fulfill and exceed your dreams to make the process easier, faster and more fun. That's where Growth Navigator Coaching comes in. Not only do we meet online to make it easy every week, but then we also have a few meetups a year in person and it applies to not just you, but your whole leadership team so you can all get on the same page. We do annual strategy, quarterly planning, we do it all and all that more. It's about 1500 bucks a month. Just under that, 14.95amonth. And you can find information about Growth navigator coaching@scalingcoach.com so check out that program. If it's not for you, maybe it's for someone you know. Please turn them on to it. We start a new group in that program every month. So we've got a spot open now. Getting one of the spots and finding a group that's a fit for you is another matter. So apply to the program and we'll see if it's right. You want to be at least a million dollars in sales and 10 or more people in the the company. ScalingCoach.com is where you find information about Growth Navigator Coaching. All right now I'm joined now by Kel Jensen who is down in Laguna de Gal today and Kel has a book coming out. Is it out now or is it coming out?
It's out.
It's out. It's out. Negotiation essentials tools. You need to find common ground and walk away a winner. So, you know, that's the thing. And you know, it's funny, as I came into the studio to record today, Kel was talking to a producer in the back, Wanda, about her upcoming plans and finding that common ground with her about common interests and background and that kind of thing. And it was just natural at effort. It's the, it's the water he swims in, the air he breathes. So thanks for joining us on the show today.
Thank you so much, Bill. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
So that, that sounds like a real Laguna Niguel accent.
Well, I'm not from here originally.
Where are you from originally?
I'm from Denmark originally and I only lived in California for about two, two and a half years now. Before that, I lived in Scottsdale, Arizona for about 12 years. So.
Yeah. Yeah. So you're enjoying that you. Well, both places are a lot warmer and sunnier than Denmark.
Quite a lot. That's one of the many reasons I'm here.
Well, it's awesome. So talk to us about like your. The life that led you to write this book.
Yes, great question. If we step back many, many years, back to the 90s, I was actually a head on a technology company back then in Stockholm in Sweden. And I thought it was a great negotiator because when you are CEO and hitting a company, you often think that you must be automatically great at negotiat. And what happened then was my former partner who's unfortunately is not among us anymore, he came into the company to coach us on negotiation. And in less than two hours, Bill, he moved me from unconsciously incompetent into consciously incompetent in the skill and art of negotiation. I suddenly realized that I was terrible at it, even though I was negotiating all the time, left and right, up and down. So that made me suddenly realize back then that, my God, you know, there's so many people out there who really are unconsciously incompetent and we need to way we negotiate. And you're absolutely right in your intro. A lot of people when you ask them what is negotiation? They're saying, well, it's something that business people are doing in conference rooms or something that people in politics are doing. And yes, it is, but it's something we all do all the time. I mean, if you have kids, you negotiate. If you're married, you have you, you, you Negotiate. If you have clients, you negotiate. If you have a bank, you negotiate. If you buy a car, you negotiate. If you breathe, you're negotiate because you're negotiating with yourself. So, Bill, I'm actually claiming we're having 8 to 10,000 negotiation per year. All of us, even those that don't think they negotiate at all.
That would be many per day.
That's a lot per day. Absolutely. Have you got kids or. We can just ask our audience if any of them have kids and just start counting before you even say good morning to his spouse. So there you go. There's a lot of them.
Well, yeah, I definitely negotiate with my kids today. So my son's 26, my daughter's 24. We negotiate today about where holidays will be spent, what we're going to do, things like that. But there's always that conversation, right? About what? Yeah, I think that's useful. It's not just contracts, it's every little thing, all the time. So why don't we share some stories that help to create a picture of this. The first one you shared in preparation was this client, Blue Colding. Did I say that right?
Yes, yes, you did.
Yeah. About them and what happened there and like that.
Yeah, absolutely. It's actually a company who won the. The award from the Organization of Public Procurement Offices for Best negotiation of the Year. And what they did was they embraced the philosophy that we introducing in the book, a philosophy called smartship. And that's all about that. You basically step into negotiation and try to collaborate. And. And that word, everybody heard that word before, but a lot of people don't really mean. Know what that means? True. Sponsorship and collaboration means that you actually step into a meeting or any kind of negotiation, really, Bill, and you open up by say, I'm here to help you reduce your cost, your liabilities, your risk, whatever that is negative for you, and I'm here to help you improve your profit or anything that might be positive for you. Would you be interested in me doing that for you? And I can promise you, Bill, most people will be quiet for a moment and look very suspicious, but they will say yes. Because obviously everybody wants help with something, right?
Yeah.
And after you're done doing that and you got that acceptance that they wanna, they. They want to get that help from you, then you continue by saying, and I see that your purpose in our meeting today is helping me reducing my cost, my. My risk, my liabilities, and help me improve my profit or whatever it is I want to. To improve. So are you willing to do that? So it's really what I'm trying to appeal to and what I'm trying to change in the book is actually the way we perceive negotiation because believe it or not, we have basically been negotiating the Same way since 1776. Now. Yes, we have technology that is helping us today. You and I are sitting here virtually. We can negotiate this way, we can negotiate by email, we can negotiate electronically. So we have obviously technology, from a technology point of view, developed the way that we collaborate, the way we deal with conflicts, but the mentality is basically the same. And the reason I'm saying 1776 is because that's when the famous philosopher Adam Smith wrote his book the World of Nation How Nations Should Trade with each Other. Back to Blue Colling. The reason that I mentioned them is because they were one of the first organizations that actually embraced this philosophy, won the award. So they're basically going out to their suppliers and clients today and saying, hang on, how can we help you make more money? How can we help you reduce your cost? What can we do to increase and improve our collaboration? So they have moved from that traditional buyer and supplier position to equal partners where they actually, if you and I, for instance, Bill, were negotiating, I wouldn't see the problem being with you. The problem is not with me either. The problem is like a third party out here. So we have a mutual assignment, you and I, we have to solve that puzzle, which is the third party. So it's not your problem. It's not my problem is something we have to solve. So I mentioned that company specifically because they're one of the first ones in the world who, who embrace this philosophy and because they, they won the award as well. So they are, they are governmental owned company by the way, within energy and water treatment.
A government. Yeah. So you would imagine that contracts and communities and overseeing bodies would, they would have to negotiate quite a bit with that in a fairly formal fashion. Unlike some of our entrepreneurs who sometimes negotiate very informally. I noticed that one of the things find myself in an informal negotiation with someone. One of the hardest things that I notice other people do and I. It's easy to spot in other people, less easier in myself, but is that they are reluctant to actually say what they want. It's like they seem afraid to actually say it. Like maybe they'll ask for too little or I don't know, like, like, hey, what do you want? Like tell me like if we can work it out.
Sure. No, you're absolutely right. Let me think about that. Yeah, no, and, and, and I think to be honest, I think that's. That's a challenge for a lot of people. We did a study where we were out interviewing 7,000 people. Most of them were what I would consider professional negotiators. That means part of the paycheck they got to negotiate. Right. So if you were getting part of your paycheck to negotiate, you are automatically defined as a professional negotiator. And what was a little bit surprising and scary to me, bill, was that 42% of them admitted to dislike negotiation. They actually didn't like to do it. And I think we can all agree that we have a tendency as human beings to be better at something we truly like. I think that's the case, isn't it? If we don't like something, there's a tendency that we're never really getting good at it. And that goes with negotiation as well. And it strikes me also, when I ask students and clients around the world if they like or dislike negotiation, I get enormous amount of people admitting they actually don't like to negotiate or they don't like the perception of what they think is negotiation. Because unfortunately, Bill, a lot of people think that negotiation is a confrontation. It's a conflict. It's about a serious sum game where you win at my expense, I win at your expense. And that's back to what I'm saying. It's really about changing the perception of what we think negotiation is all about. And I would say in general, Hollywood have had a bad influence on negotiation because obviously they're portraying negotiation hundreds and hundreds of movies, and they have a tendency of portraying negotiation in obviously an entertaining form. Right. Because they have to. But negotiation is not necessarily a game, which is identity to. To the way this. It is shown in. In a Hollywood movie. Right. So we really have to take a step back and start rethinking what could negotiation be instead of this kind of what I would call old school serious on positional game.
Yeah. Well, it is entertaining, right. To watch adversarial people and people trying to trick each other and that kind of thing. And watching people, you know, politely find nice ways and where they can agree on things is not. Doesn't make very interesting TV or movie.
You absolutely right about that. Yes.
No, we have to trick you and then maybe shoot somebody on your side. Yes, yes, that'll be entertaining. So why don't we take it into another realm? You. You shared about a client who discovered some empathy by dealing with somebody who had a cancer in the family. Tell us about.
Oh, absolutely. Obviously, it's a sad story, but it really proves that empathy is important. And what I claim is that all business is human. And what I mean by that is that, you know when I'm reading Washington Post or Financial Times or what have you and it says that company A did a deal with company B, I'm always thinking and I apologize for my language, but what a load of BS because that never happened. What happened was that Maria on one side of the table made an agreement with Mark on the other side of the table. And if Mark had been replaced by Peter, perhaps that deal never happened because it's down to people. So we have to understand that it's an emotional process. And the famous Daniel Kahneman. I'm sure some of our listeners today here know who is. He is Nobel prize winning professor who is actually called the father of behavioral economics and behavioral economics, very briefly is the merits between traditional psychology and very conservative econom thinking. And what he's basically claiming is that we are all irrational. So it's a very emotional process and I find that to be absolutely true. Back to my story. Empathy is a huge thing in negotiation. And by empathy is really understanding the counterpart, truly understanding the counterpart, not just assuming that you understand the counterpart. And very famous in the world of negotiation, Professor Daniel Kahneman from Harvard University is actually out preaching and he's written about in one of his books as well, that we live in a world where we're in tribes, more tribes really than ever. It's actually amazing since the world is global, but we have a tendency to sit in a tribe. And that means that if you're saying something I don't like or disagree with, I'm not listening to you. I'm not showing empathy. I'm not respecting your opinion being different than mine. My conclusion is just you're wrong, Bill, and I'm right. So what he claims, Dr. Superior, is that our listening skill has actually gone worse. We are not as good as communicating with each other anymore. Just look at the whole political scene in the US I think that's a great expression and an example of that. Back to my story. I had a client that was negotiating with a counterpart. They've been negotiating for a long time. They actually knew each other very well and they had a mutual, well, working relationship, I would say. And suddenly my client identified that the counterpart was kind of out of it. He wasn't focused anymore, he wasn't concentrated and he kind of lost track of everything that was happening. So my client was sitting there thinking, I can close this deal now. And I can make a fortune. But something is off, because normally my counterpart is really intelligent, really sharp, so something's completely off. So instead of closing a deal and making that fortune, he reached out to his counterpart and said, tell me, is anything going on? Because I feel you're different. And then his counterpart actually broke into tears and start saying that his wife has caught cancer and was treated and he felt awful about it. So what my client did was he said, you know what, we're going to postpone this whole negotiation until you're back on track. And you know, I'm not going to abuse this, this moment to sign any deal and make an additional buck. And you know what happened afterward. This is about 10 years ago. He got a lifelong loyal partner. I can tell you that he never had a counterpart that's been more loyal because he just showed right there an enormous amount of empathy. He showed that you trust him and in. He showed that he's not abusing weakness from, from a counterpart. And I love that story, partly because it's true and partly because it really shows that long term pays off.
Yeah. You know, it's funny, I often personally collapse, right. Put together, selling, pitching, negotiation, like it's all me trying to get somebody else to say yes to something. And I think this thing of like considering what matters to them, what do they really want in politics, in personal, in any realm, makes a difference. And when you take the time to actually think about what is, what's it like for this person, what are they doing, what are they, what's going on over there. Right. Makes a massive difference actually. Listening, thinking about honoring where they come from. You could be disagreed about it, you know, but, but having empathy for what they're dealing with, what life looks like for them. Because we, we look at life really different, differently, don't we?
Oh, God, yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah. Very important.
Yeah. I think it's a powerful thing. And if we would stop a book that I have talked about a lot also related, Just Listen is not at all about negotiation so much, but it supports the basic idea of actually paying attention to considering the other person.
Yep.
What, what's this? You made reference to some German procurement director who did something with negotiating in our show prep.
Yeah, that's, that's quite opposite of what I just explained because I'm working globally and, and I'm still working with the same organization in, in Germany. I'm not going to mention any names, but they have a procurement director there who is, how can I put it nicely, A tough negotiator very combative, very tough, very competitive. And we were sitting in a, in a negotiation end of last year in Germany with a supplier to this major German company who's my client and the procurement officer for my client. As I said, he was really tough. So he was aggressive, he was threatening. He was basically giving the supplier ultimatums that if he would not agree with what my client was saying, he was basically just going to be out of there and they would buy from somebody else. And the supplier finally accepted and just gave in. You know, he was just a, a victim of that behavior from my client. So anyway, I'm a very curious individual, so I couldn't help myself. We walked outside and my client was standing next to his car. So I walked over to him and I said, that behavior you had taught that supplier, how would you have felt if that behavior, that the supplier had that behavior towards you? And then the German procurement director looked at me and said, well, you know what, if he had had that behavior, he would have been a really son of a bitch. And I said, okay, that's interesting. So why would it be okay? You had that behavior towards that counterpart then? And then looked very confused to me and said, but I'm on the buy side, you know. And then I got confused because is there a rule in the world that buy side are allowed to treat somebody very nasty, but the supply side is not allowed to do that? And I don't think there's a rule like that. And you know, I'm actually a true believer in the Golden Rule. And the Golden Rule obviously actually exists in all religions in the world. Some people think it's only in the Bible and it's only if you're Christian. But whether you're a Muslim or Hindu, Buddhist or Jew, whatever you are, you have the Golden Rule. And the Golden Rule translated means only do to others what you like others to do to you. And what is fascinating, Bill, we actually been studying this from a financial point of view and have found since 1998 that negotiators are human beings because it doesn't have to be a commercial negotiation, but human beings who actually, consciously, unconsciously follow the Golden Rule are more successful than those who don't. I repeat that people who follow the Golden Rule are more successful than those who don't. So that means you should only ask for something, demand something, or request something from other people that you would be okay with. They would be asking from you. So today, Bill, I'm asking all my commercial clients, before we step into negotiation, would you Be okay if the counterpart asked you that question or came up with that demand that you are bringing to the table right now? And if they say yes, I say, okay, go ahead. And if they say no, I would be very offended. Then normally ask them. So why would you feel it's okay to go ahead and do that to the counterpart?
Yeah, it's interesting. I think, that there are unconscious rules that we have and that we play out in particular about roles. Right. You talked about which side of the table you're on. And I find a lot of times if I'm selling something or perceived as selling something, people will put on me, like, and. And they'll expect me to keep hounding them and calling them all the time. And I'm like, I'm going to do that, like, twice. But I'm not going to keep bothering. If you're interested, you need to let me know. Like, I'm. I'm not going to keep calling you forever. And sometimes I'll send out, or I'll. I'll send out, or I'll ask Wanda. I'll say, hey, just tell them we're not going to keep following up with them. And. And please let us know. And she's like, oh, we shouldn't talk that way. And I'm like, yeah, you should. You should maybe tell them, listen, it seems like you're not interested, and that can be very powerful because then they're like, no, no, no. I was just, you know, I'm busy and, you know, I was counting on you to do something because they have a rule that, like, we're the seller, so we have to do, like, we have to work really hard at this thing. No, it's like we're trying to figure out if we can help each other, you know?
Right, Absolutely. Yeah. No, I've actually been in client cases where we have advised clients to try and be brave enough to fire clients. I mean, their clients. Right. So simply sit down and look at all your clients and then say, who are those clients? Don't I actually like who Don't I want to work with? Who of them is giving me two words, work and headaches, and who of them are basic, not profitable, and give them a call and fire them. And a lot of organizations are dreading firing a client, but quite often it makes sense. And we've even seen cases where an organization have called a client and said, you know what? Unfortunately, we don't want to work with you anymore, where that client turned around, completely apologized, and said, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, so it actually makes sense what you're saying right there, Bill.
So you've worked with a lot of really interesting big name companies. Lego, B and O, Mercedes, Novo, Nordisk, you know, lots of big name companies. Are there any of these companies that have really surprised you? You don't have to name them or call them out, but I'd love to hear about something where an approach to negotiation was not what you expected, either good or bad, you know?
Yes, yes and no. I would say in general it's not so much the organization, it's down to the individual. Back to what I said earlier, I learned throughout the years that, and I keep repeating that all business is human. So it's very dangerous to put a label on an organization and saying, you know, they are very good at negotiations, are they very bad at it, or they're very aggressive or they're very concessional because it's down to the individual. Having said that, I do see major differences from one industry to another. So for instance, if you take, I'm just naming one, there's several of them. But construction have a tendency to be more aggressive, more serious orientated and more competitive. If you move to pharmaceutical, they have a tendency to be way more collaborative. For instance, to give you a very brief example, retail, major retail chains have a tendency to be very hard and very aggressive and combative towards their suppliers as well, especially if they're powerful like a lot of them are. And I was sitting with the British chain most recently where the procurement director of that organization said, and I quote, if our supplier have made any money, we have not been good enough at the negotiation table. So he was basically saying, we don't accept them to make any money. And then I approached him and said, but you know what, that's a problem because you are so powerful in the British market. So if your supplier is not making any money and there's not a lot of other customers out there, they may go bankrupt. And you know what, what he told me then, Bill, then he just looked at me and said, well, I don't care, then we just find another supplier. And I mean, that is really an essential issue. And from a holistic point of view and from a macro economy point of view, that is really dangerous because you're basically exhausting all companies. And I have another client who have a wonderful saying. He's saying it is. So there's a lot of problems doing business with a company who doesn't make any Money. And I love that quote, because what it basically means is if you're working with somebody who's really successful, having a tremendous amount of profit, if you call them with a problem, there's never an issue because they have the means and the resources to help you out, right? But if you call a company that is basically almost dying and are suffering and don't really turn out a profit, you know, there's a headache with everything. And the other problem with that supermarket change behavior is that, and I've seen that in other industries, if he keeps killing all suppliers, you know, at the end of the day he will end up with only one supplier in a certain area. And what do you think is going to happen then? Then there's a complete shift in power, right? Because now it's suddenly that supplier that got all the power because that supplier got monopoly. So it's, it's, it's interesting. Anyway, I'm just giving you an example about something that surprises me. And this is a behavior I see, for instance, in retail and construction. And as I said earlier, if you go into pharmaceutical, it's quite opposite, completely opposite. So when I tell this story, for instance, to a group of managers in the pharmaceutical.
You know, before you do pharmaceutical, let me just say I worked in the retail sector as a brand for a long time. And I do remember there were differences. One time we were doing a new deal with Federated. We spent some time working on a test. It was going to be worth millions of dollars. And it was going. The initial things were going very, very difficult. And I thought, well, maybe I should just call and say how discouraged I was because I thought this was the beginning of a partnership of some kind. Right? I'm a supplier still, but there's some partnering in it to make it successful. And so I called up and I said, this is going really hard. And they're like, oh, yeah, it happens. And I said, you know, like, if we can't shift this, like, what's the future going to be? Like, maybe we shouldn't be in business together. And my buyer was shocked and offended that I would say such a thing. And then I hadn't really planned to, but I said, well, I guess that's it then. I guess we shouldn't go forward. And so I killed the test, which, you know, enraged the salesperson because it was worth a lot of money and they were just livid with me. And I'm like, wow. But then I went to, I remember I went to QVC and we did bit of business with QVC for a few years. And I went to them and I said, you know, this contract, I'm really worried that, like, if I sign this contract the way it is, it's gonna put me out of business. And if something goes wrong and it's fine if everything goes right, but if anything goes wrong, I'm a little company and you're a huge company. And, and they're like, you know what? We don't want to put you out of business. Let's change it. We can renegotiate in a few months and after we see how things are. And they changed everything. Same kind of a deal with Amazon. They told me to go to hell. Take it or leave it. And I think you're right, it does. I mean, there's a character to the company, then there's a character to the individual, and they all are like, they're all over the place. And there's the industry character, which is like, we have to make sure that, you know, the supplier is never making any money. Like, that's the ultimate game. Like, wow, that's like a bizarre kind of thing. And.
Absolutely.
And some go changes. Right. We did business for over 20 years at Nordstrom and they were always pretty win ethical and then one day things changed and they were like, we don't really care. This is what we want. Go to hell.
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, it's, it, it is, it is interesting. And, and, and, and you see those, those variation obviously from different companies and different, different areas as well. Absolutely.
Tell us about the, the pharmaceuticals and what you notice there.
Oh, yeah, back, back to that. Oh, yeah. So if you take that extreme example I was just talking about in, in construction, if you go to the pharmaceutical, it is quite opposite and they are way more collaborative, just like the example you gave right there. And you know, when I'm telling sharing story from the construction industry or retail into managers in pharmaceutical, they're very often just sitting there completely shocked. I even had a funny example a couple years ago. There was a manager who said, I gave, I gave a story about what happens is sometimes in those more combative areas. Right. And I was managing a pharmaceutical company who was sitting there being absolutely quiet, and he said, but why, why didn't he call the police? You know, he was so shocked, honestly, about that. Anybody could have that behavior. So he thought we got to call authorities here because something is absolutely bad. I said, I'm pretty sure police couldn't help in, in that case. But it just gave you an example that there's a big Difference and, and the point of my story with the two extremes between construction, retail and then into the other area is that when you look at the bottom line, what is interesting, I think we all know that pharmaceutical is really not doing anything unless they can produce 486% on the bottom line. Right? And construction and retail, if they're having a really, really great year, they are turning out 2, 3, 4, 5, 6% on the bottom line. They might be doing revenues in the billions. Right. But still 3, 4, 5, 6% is not a lot. So I was curious about that and I sat down a few years ago and studied it and it's very, very clear to me that industries that are more collaborative have a higher profit than industries that are more serious on positional. Now I have a question now, and I'm sorry I can't answer it myself Bill, but is that chicken or the egg? What came first? Are you more collaborative because you make a lot of money or are you making a lot of money because you are collaborative? And the other question obviously would be, do you, do you, are you not making any money because you're more serious, sum orientated? Are you more serious sum orientated because you're doing, you don't make any money? And I don't have the scientific answers to that question, but it's absolutely clear to me that there is a huge difference.
That's really interesting. I wonder what that's all about and what the causal relationship is. Yeah, be very interesting to see somebody that would make a good follow on book for you.
It is and it might be as well, I think, if I should explain it again, I haven't researched it. But if you are profitable, if you are making a lot of money, perhaps you think you can afford being more collaborative and thereby you even increase your profit. On the other hand, if you have really squeezed, you may think that you can't afford being collaborative and a serious sum approach is the right way forward. Who knows? That's just me thinking out loud.
You know, my dad taught me something that you sort of speak to early on and he said see if you can like be the first one to propose the process. Rather than trying to negotiate something, try to lay out the process. And then I had a mentor later who said try to propose the formula for which the mechanics of the deal, the business get worked out. And I realized when I remember to do it, if remembering to do a thing is half the battle, when I remember to propose the process and the formula to lay that out, like the whole thing goes a Lot easier than if we're all just feeling around in the dark, trying to figure something out. And you talk about negotiating, negotiate, and laying out that process. Say a little bit about that.
Yes. Think about negotiation this way. Again, regardless whether you're negotiating with your spouse or your kids or your boss or your supplier, whoever, you may perceive negotiation like playing chess. Right. So imagine, Bill, you and I are going to negotiate about something and you're sitting in a room preparing your chess for board and having the pieces on the chessboard. And I walk into the room with a racket because I see negotiation like playing tennis. So I'm coming into this room, you know, swinging my racket around in the air because I'm ready to play tennis and you're sitting there prepared to, to, to play chess. It sounds crazy, but that's reality. That's how a lot of people start negotiating. Because, you know, United nations or the White House or anybody have never ever declared an international standard on how to negotiate. So there isn't any standard. Yeah, I mean, your way could be right, my way could, could be right. But the fun part is it may not necessarily be the same approach to how we negotiate. So one of the things that we've been talking about for years and I'm addressing in the book is that we need to negotiate on how to negotiate before we start negotiating. And I know that for some people that sounds absolutely crazy, but it is, I promise you, because we tried it out in real life for years, it is worthwhile investing that time discussing how we're going to negotiate before we start doing it. Because we simply eliminate a lot of the confusion, misunderstanding, and you know, communication is a huge part of negotiation as well. So if we improve communication, we naturally improve negotiation and the outcome of negotiation as well. So one of the things that for instance, I talk about in the book as well is what I call trust currency. And it's obviously just a two word trust and currency that I've merged. And the reason for that is that trust, trust is such an important part of being financially successful as well. We really can prove that if trust is high, transaction cost goes down and profit goes up. So trust is a tangible asset, it's actually monetary value. And I'm talking about that back to the rules, the game that we negotiate on how to negotiate because we should talk about trust as well as part of how we should negotiate. And a lot of people come to me and said, hang on, we can't talk about trust. That's like a taboo thing. I said, no, no, we should talk about it. What happens, Bill, if you and I working together and trust is declining, should we be allowed to verbalize that? Absolutely. How can we, you and I together, increase our mutual trust? Because that is certainly in our interest that we increase the trust level we have in our deal. So I can all encourage everybody to sit down and think about how they negotiate and how the counterpart negotiate and you know, just talk to a married couple, they may negotiate very differently. Sit down and talk about how should we negotiate when we have a conflict, how do you perceive the conflict? How should we deal with that conflict and talk about it? Not when you are in the conflict, then it's a little bit too late, but before you actually end up there. So how do you see that? Because very often it helps a lot just having that pre negotiation prior to the actual negotiation.
Yeah, hold that thought one second. Let me just pause here and remind folks that if you're trying to get your company growing or if you're dealing with overwhelm, those are the two biggest things that we deal with all the time. Trying to get the growth in or trying to get some overwhelm out so that you can get back to and survive the growth that you're experiencing. Those are the two big problems and we solve them on the regular. They take some time. It helps to have peers, it helps to have accountability, it helps to update your strategy, all of that. And that benefits from regular weekly attention. So. So all the things of scaling up all the Gallup strengths, tools, that and more in our Growth Navigator coaching program. And that program is super, super affordable. It's 14.95amonth. You have to apply and we make sure that you are the right size and place for it. And then we put you in a group with some other companies that and a accountability coach and some things like that so that you really can work through that over time together. ScalingCoach.com is where you'll find information about that growth. Navigator Coaching is the program that is the most affordable. ScalingCoach.com again is the website. So, you know, it's interesting in the world of diplomacy and governments, that kind of thing, we know that staffers behind the scenes spend a lot of time negotiating about where the venue is. We'll pick some neutral ground. They argue over the shape of the room and the table and where people will be seated and how people will come in and when the press will be allowed to take pictures and all these minutiae that change things. And in certain rooms, if you control it, like if you're in the Cabinet Room in the White House. The President's chair is a little bit higher to make sure that they're slightly elevated over the rest of the Cabinet and visitors. And all of these subtle things are designed to elevate ego and protect things and make people feel good and comfortable or in some cases make somebody feel uncomfortable. Mostly to, to make people feel comfortable, though, and to avoid the discomfort and embarrassment and things like that. And then, of course, on the table, you often hear beforehand, well, we're not coming together unless we're talking about this. We're not coming together if that's on the table and all, that's all negotiating and negotiate. Right. But you think about it like, well, I'm not going to do a meeting with you if we're not ready to sign a deal, that kind of thing. Are you prepared to sign this thing today that whole world is negotiating to negotiate exactly what you're talking about?
Yeah, absolutely. It is, it is. And that's a lot of negotiation going on before negotiations all the time.
And then the other thing I think about, I opened the show with, and I was thinking about a couple of people in particular that I have had to do things with and like, getting them just to say, what do you want? You know, I'm willing to work with you, but what do you actually want? And some people, that's a real struggle to just to declare what you want.
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, I, I, I have spent some time in this country now, and I do love the US I'm a citizen as well now. And but what I found in general, if I should compare to Europe, I was born and raised in, in Denmark, as we talked about. And, but the big difference I find, and I'm generalizing obviously between Europe and, and America, is that the average American, I don't want to offend anybody, is really not a negotiator. They are barking, Hunter. They, they actually don't challenge what is given, you know. So I'm often asking in Europe, do you negotiate when you go out and shop? And people say, yeah, sure, I do. Why, why wouldn't I? And if I ask the same question in the US a lot of people say, no, I, I don't. Well, when I buy a new car, I do, but that's really it. And I say, why not? And they said, well, you can't do that. And I said, who told you that, that you can't do that? Well, I don't know. I just, we, we never did that. So it's interesting to me Because Americans are so curious and great people and really adventurous in so many areas. But for whatever reason, they don't challenge quite often what is naturally something that you could negotiate. So for instance, I've noticed, I guess everybody, I've noticed how prices have just been increasing like crazy, inflation going up and prices have just gone up and everything. And I'm often saying, well, that's the fault of the consumer because they're not challenging the prices. You know, if you did the same thing in France, there would be a strike and people will be out negotiating all the time and saying this is not happening. You know, there's some pushback. Where I see the average American, for whatever reason, is, is not negotiating. And that goes for instance, in a job with salary negotiations. Well, I saw a study recently, Bill, where the majority of Americans, when they are being offered salary increase, they just accept it. They don't even negotiate that. So let's say that you're my boss and you say, carl, I'll give you 5% more next year. And I said, thank you so much, Bill, but why should I accept five? If you gave me five, why couldn't I get ten? You know, Anyway, it's just about opening that box of why not negotiate life?
Well, you know, I think culture, right, there's company culture, there's regional culture, there's national cultures, ethnic cultures, and they have norms around these things. Right. In first world, for the most part, we don't negotiate food and grocery. But in third world you can negotiate the cost of fish in the market. Right. Like you can negotiate anything, the cost of your potatoes in, in a place like that. Oh, that's too much. These are terrible tomatoes. Then why are you negotiating so much? Like, you know, and we come to think of that in some old world market, but we don't think of that in many other places. In a poorer country, we think of that more. But we do negotiate business to business. Services, products. We negotiate commodities on the regular, we negotiate stock prices, we negotiate company valuations, we negotiate to some degree certain kinds of financing and that's all commonplace. We negotiate cars, but we don't negotiate our electric rates. Right. Which I would really love to negotiate here in California.
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I would call him up and say.
Listen, I got a guy down the street who's going to sell me those kilowatts for a whole lot less. And then there's norms around where the negotiations begin and end. I remember as I started to do business in certain parts of Asia, realizing that when I thought we agreed and shook hands or signed a contract or a poor that it was done and it was in fact not done and we would keep negotiating. After what I perceived as the sale, until money was exchanged, there was still negotiation happening. And the first time I encountered this, I was really offended. I was like insulted. Like now you're trying to cheat me because we've already done something and I developed a little bit. Maybe it's cynical from our perspective, but it's like, yeah, I don't know if that's a deal yet. Like they haven't sent me any money, so who knows we're going to actually do something. Yeah.
Oh yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Bill. And there's so many Americans that get surprised, especially when they go to Asia because obviously the contract is king in this country, right? So if they go to Asia, sign the deal and they, they go back home and thinking okay, done deal. And then nothing happens because you know, the Asian counterpart found a better offer. So they just move with that. So I often call the contract, it's just the pause in the negotiation process and that's regardless whether the both parties are willing to actually go with the contract. Because have you thought about it? There's often a lot of negotiation going on post signing contract as well because there might be. Sure new stuff arises. So obviously it's still negotiable. Yes.
Well, the book, let's throw up the title of the book on there Negotiation Essentials Tools to find common ground on Amazon. Negotiation Essentials. That's a place to go. Check it out. I want to thank you for coming on the show. I want to send a shout out to also to Vern Harnish, author and creator of Scaling Up Rockefeller Habits. Wanda Christelle Podfly story on all the people that make our show happen every week. Thanks again everyone for watching for listening. Until next time, keep scaling.
