Getting Real with Nora Herting

Foreign. There we are. Once again, Apologies to our listeners. This show is about getting visual. Welcome back to the Scaling Up Business podcast. We're talking today all about what visualizing things, bringing visuals to your business can do for you. And we're getting real with Noah Herding. Is that I say that right?

Yeah, that's right Bill. We're hurting like ouch.

I should have asked it in the beginning, but right the first time. Good job for me. Yay me. So big thanks to some of our sponsors. First of all, we're sponsored by the EO organization Bay Area Chapters. EO is commonly known as EO Entrepreneurs Organization. Eonetwork.org is a global peer led organization in about 62 plus countries, 15,000 plus members around the world. I'm the president of the East Bay, the newest chapter in the Bay Area right now and I've been a member for 21 years now across multiple companies involved in so many ways. So our three Bay Area chapters connect you to those 15,000 members around the world. This peer led organization is a great place to learn, connect, grow, play, find people who understand your affliction as an entrepreneur and can share and grow in the journey with you. If you want more information to check it out, see if it's for you, go to eonetwork.org One of the other things that we want to give a shout out to is to our tech sponsor. So if you're growing your company, if you're a mid market firm, finding a great tech part partner when you don't have unlimited internal tech resources, a critical thing that we all face all the time and finding that right size, that Cinderella vendor that fits exactly, not Cinderella, Goldilocks. That's what I'm looking for. That's the analogy. That right fit vendor that fits your right size company that's not too big nor too small for your business is really critical. And you want a vendor who can scale up or down with you, who can support your thing over time, who can add staff, who has a process that's well matched to your your own world and one of our own, a scaling up company that's been using a scaling up coach and applying the practices for a long time now is a company, Clarion Technologies. They are right size, they outperform, they've got a great process. They know they live and breathe the same language that you do. Clarion Technologies. So you can go to Bit ly Clarion Technology and find more information, get in touch with them, see if they're a fit for you. I Highly recommend you check them out. All right, Nora, welcome to the show.

Hi, Bill. And congratulations on being the president of the new EO chapter. I'm an EO member of the New York chapter myself.

Oh, nice. Welcome. I love the New York chapter and one of our bigger chapters, as you might expect from a big old city like New York. So Nora's company's image think, and you're going to tell us. So let's start off, talk a little bit about your business. What do you guys do? What is the world? I know about it, but tell our listeners and viewers.

Yeah, right. People are often like, what the heck? There's the long and short answer. But what we do at ImageThink is we help clients, a lot of Fortune 500 companies, leaders there move, we like to say, from insight and ideas to action, which could be anything. Right. That sounds like kind of a regular consulting firm. But the way we do that is through the power of visual leadership and visual communication. Oftentimes that'll look like being in the room with CEOs or C suite working on a strategy. And our people are visualizing in real time in front of everybody, basically all of the big ideas and the path forward, helping them gain alignment, clarity, and cut through complexity. But using pictures to do that.

You maybe have seen this in conferences, board meetings, off sites, things like that before, where they're doing it, but also in planning sessions, in going through things, adding a visual element to it is really powerful and not a regular part of many of our processes. So talk to us about how you got into this business. Why? Like, why this?

Yeah. Well, there's the long answer in the short answer.

No, we want the long one for sure.

The long one. Okay, well, because this is about getting real right with with your clients. So I was apparently nine months old, and my favorite toy was a pen and paper. I was always artistically inclined, but I was from, like a working class family. I was first generation college. So when I thought the path that seemed to be the safest and make the most sense was to go sort of the college professor route, which actually is pretty competitive. But, you know, you have tenure, you have health insurance, and my parents were practical people. So I did that. I got a professorship at 27. Not easy to do. And shortly after doing that, I was like, you know what? This goal that I had is actually kind of a failure of imagination. What else can I do? So I quit my job. I moved to New York with no plan. And before I went, my mom, I took her out to dinner and she said, well, you know, when you move to New York, are you going to get a job at an art firm? And I said, oh, mom, what's it? Tell me about this? She's like, you know, it's artists. They all work for a company. They go there together, they make art for other companies. You know, Nora, like a law firm, but for artists, an art firm. So at this point, she's so earnest that I'm no longer kind of laughing. And I look at her and I say, look, mom, that doesn't exist. And this look, she gets real quiet, this look of like terror comes over her face. And she says, well, Nora, what are you going to do? I felt awful because I was honestly like, I don't know. So I fell in with Capgemini, which used to be Ernst and Young. And they had, at the time, no one called it design thinking. This was 2005. They had this cadre of really weird people who worked in these spaces that had all these whiteboards and they rolled around. And we were all freelance from different backgrounds and we put on these innovation workshops and these design thinking workshops. I learned the particular craft of what we call graphic recording the visual synthesis live for these companies on the job. 2009, started, had my own website. First client was NASA. Fast forward. It's been 12 years. We support about 3, 350 engagements a year. And I think we've worked in 27 countries, Bill supporting clients and all the formats that you talked about just a minute ago. But it was really, it was a little bit accidental. But it really merges this idea of bringing a skill set around the power of visuals to business. People that have a real business impact and sort of fusing that art and business together, that. That's really what gets me out of bed in the morning.

Could you hear my dog in the background right now?

Yeah, I could.

That brought a visual to mine. Yappy little dog. He's elated that my son has arrived at the house, who's 24, doesn't live with us, but he gets very excited.

Yeah, well, you're probably elated too, I hope.

Well, you have to say I hope, right. Because when our adult kids show up, sometimes that could be a bad thing. Oh yeah, they want something. No, he's great. He lives nearby. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So that's a really great thing. So you start with NASA, right? What do they do?

Oh, I don't know. Something about. I'm Velcro, I think.

Tang. Velcro, yeah. Yep.

They made Tang dehydrated. Dehydrated ice cream. Yeah.

Essential innovations at NASA. Yeah, I think that's, that's a pretty good. So you got paid a billion dollars, right, to do a drawing?

Yeah, basically.

No, that's just really cool. I, you know, as a kid of my age, by far the most inspiring thing in my early life was watching Neil Armstrong step onto the moon. Right. 1969. That was like a mind blowing thing. Changed my whole view for a long time. And what a cool thing, right, to get such a visible marquee client. And now you've parlayed that into work all over the world. So I'm guessing that was probably a big break between both the Ernst and Young Capgemini and then the NASA work that. That like, created a huge opening.

Well, the NASA work was a great client and definitely, you know, credibility building. I think that our big break was actually working with Ogilvy and being sort of Ogilvy's PR arm at south by Southwest in, let's say 2012, 2013. So they came to us and they said, we, we want you to visualize, you know, 75 of the main stage keynotes and you're going to kind of be our showpiece. You know, as. As image think. And they, we also, we did that. We printed. They printed thousands and thousands of versions overnight of our capture and gave it. There was lines like in the convention center at Austin of people taking the posters. And then, you know, so even to this day or like years later, people will be like, oh, I have Guy Kawasaki's talk that you did on my cubicle. It's so co. And it works so well for us that even after Ogilvy kind of moved on and Ogilvy got a can lion for best PR that year, Wall Street Journal cited ImageThink as one of the top five best things at South By. And then we ourselves worked directly with the festival for a couple of years. So that just gave us a lot of exposure. It didn't quite showcase the true strategy sessions, strategic planning sessions that you talked about, Bill, because that is where I think we. We really bring a lot of impact. But it definitely opened up people's idea about what this field is, that a lot of that. At that point, our marketing was really just education because no one even understood what it was that we did or why you would want that. Right. So that helped tremendously.

You know, I have had people call it a gimmick and say that. And I, you know, I bring that up because I think it's useful to say, well, let's Talk about your challenge in just a minute. But. But let me just say that I can remember very clearly one of my psych professors who began and delivered the entire semester with a single drawing. And he's like, you know, and he just created this visual of the whole. Of the whole semester, his entire class, in one single visual. He's like, if you just stay with me and pay attention, you'll be surprised that the test will be a piece of cake. And it was, in fact, like, I could just think, oh, that's ideas over there. And it looks like that, and this relates to that over there. And the whole visual came back to me. Now, maybe I'm just oriented that way, but I thought it was brilliant. And I think about that often whenever we have an opportunity to record a meeting in a visual fashion like that.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's case in point is that it's very memorable. I don't believe it's just you. My sister's a neuroscientist, so I'm able to like, vet some of this. And I actually later talked at south by Southwest about what are some of the things happening in our brain that make this effective. But I always like to bring people back to cave paintings. So the cave of Altamira, it's 300B3 30,000 BC is when they've dated these cave paintings that are bison and game, and they believe that that was kind of hunting instructions. So I say that that's the first example of an innovator who had a different idea, like, hey, let's not eat these berries. Let's, you know, what are what these big game taste like. They have to communicate that idea to other people so that they can collaborate around something complex like hunting. You had to do it with more than one person, and then they were successful. So then it became a document. Right. So there's a very, very long lineage of visuals being effective for organizing people, for making it more memorable for, you know, expressing complicated ideas in ways that are relatable. So I don't think it's just you, Bill. I think it's also our early ancestors. And know, children come by it naturally. And it's really kind of innate thing, both as an audience and as someone doing it to that that people can tap into. Like your professor, like, he wanted to make sure he import imparted his ideas to his audience, to his students and your evidence that it was really an effective technique.

Now, I don't know if I could recall it all today. It's been a Few years, but. But for a long time. I mean, for years after, I could remember that class really distinctly, the parts of it in a very different way than I could. And today, our clients often build visuals for their vivid vision. They build visuals for some of them, for the core elements of their strategy, their manifesto, stuff like purpose and values, that kind of thing. And I do a vision, like a. Like a vision board, along with my annual, personal annual plan. So I build this element out and I've done kind of the structural work of putting the pieces in place, and then I put the visuals behind it afterwards. And I find it helps me, like, subtly, subconsciously, and I actually print them up. And I will have two or three around the house in places like in my office, in. By my closet, that kind of thing that just, you know, I don't do much with them. I just kind of let them be there, and then I look at them again from time to time, but in particular at the end of the year to see how did I do it. It has a huge effect on, like, imagining that piece and then letting it sort of live there. It's. It's affecting us.

Yeah, you call me up when you do yours next, because I've been doing that for myself since 2011, because I agree. And in my book, Draw youw Big Idea, which is more geared towards individuals than organization, at the later chapters, there's a couple of templates like that, too. And it changes every year. Like, sometimes I do it kind of as a mind map, sometimes I do it more as a metaphor. But absolutely, I think as an individual, it's helpful. But, you know, even more so if you're. You have a strategy plan that you need other people to follow, too. So one time I was giving this workshop to a group of IBM ers, just about why this is valuable.

Right?

A little bit about what we're talking about today with your audience. And I had an example up, and the woman in the crowd said, that's actually my team. That's my team at IBM that you guys did this for, and I still use it. And I was surprised because it was about cloud transformation. And usually, you know, a year or two later, that stuff is. Technology is moving way too fast. So I said, you're still using this? And she said, well, yeah, because I. I show this even to interns that start. Because it's important for them to know where they are now, where we were two years ago, and kind of the path that we're on, you know, so it was delightful to hear and it was very specific to them. They had all these kind of like in jokes in the, in the diagram and in the visual. But that it wasn't even just that year's strategy that this leader still like to use it for context. It's like a storytelling device.

Oh, I totally get that. And I think having the in jokes with it as well is kind of cool. Like, you know, it helps make it memorable and increase your affinity for it. Right?

Yeah, for sure. And sometimes you can use that to bring up like surface, harder issues. So in one example that we have, you know, it's kind of this bridge to the future drawing. There's water and you know, one, they're like, oh, what are the sharks? The sharks are your challenges. They're like leadership. And they just like wrote it. You know, that group was like, the leadership's the sharks. And they were able to sort of say that and then show it to the leadership that I feel like if it wasn't a drawing and there wasn't like a metaphor and that they probably would have been a lot more reticent to be like, you're one of the obstacles for us achieving our goal, you know, But I've been in some tough conversations with a couple of organizations where they really call out the senior leadership as being a barrier. And I think that having like some of these pictures makes it a little bit more accessible to have those conversations.

It's funny how that visuals, humor, smells. There are certain things mentally that work to recall and then you can organize things. So we've talked a lot about what it is and the value of it. And your early breakthrough. What do you suppose has been your biggest challenge so far? Maybe you're still dealing with it right now, but.

Right, right. Well, I think that that always changes what the challenge is. Right. Certainly the challenge that I had in 2019 was definitely different than the challenge I had in March or April of 2020. You know, I think scale is a hard challenge for a service based business. You know, I'm curious what you think. You have lots of people on here. What, what, how people approach it. But, you know, it's, it's a very personal, very idiosyncratic, very human act that we, that we perform for our clients. You know, years ago I worked with somebody who was like, oh, can we somehow make some kind of software that people could use? But I think we're probably, we probably have job security for a little while before someone comes up with good enough AI to do what we do in person. So really, you know, the training and the scaling is, you know, is always a bit of a challenge for. For someone, you know, doing something that's so high touch for clients.

Yeah, very involved, very personal. So do you ever have jobs go bad where people are like, oh, I didn't like that?

You know, really rarely. I think what's interesting is when it's happening live, people, there's a certain amount of latitude that people have that if it was just an illustration that they might have commentary. But in the act of seeing it created, very rarely are there changes where the client's like, you didn't quite get that right. I can usually count it on one hand. Each year we do hundreds of sessions because they're really trying to reflect back what they're saying.

And.

And of course, there's some editorializing that happens, but the real skill for my team is around synthesizing the information, listening to it, synthesizing, and then making judgment about what is priority. And the illustration part is actually the much easier part to teach or have. It's really that synthesis where it's. It stands. And that's usually also where maybe there is a misstep.

That.

That's where it happens.

So, lucky break challenge. What do you suppose has been your biggest mistake?

Oh, yeah, my biggest mistake. Well, years ago, we had. We had a person working for us freelance that said, oh, I want to be a business partner. And, you know, I can. I can fulfill, you know, another region in the country. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't think so. And then. So he started his own company. Really talented is probably our biggest competitor. So maybe that. That's. That's the. The biggest mistake. But, yeah, I think, you know, I think also maybe not being aggressive enough, you know, delegating faster, hiring faster, you know, kind of getting a. Getting a little bit ahead, you know, is always. When is that moment? When is that right moment, you know, and having judgment about that.

How about a brag? Is there something that you could brag about or a superpower that you have that you are proud of?

Yeah. Yeah.

So.

Well, the funny thing is my. My weird superpower is that I'm the person. No matter. I could be in a completely different country and not speak the language, and people will cross the street to ask me for directions. I don't know what that's about. Maybe it's. I'm either really unassuming looking, or I look. I know I look like I know where the direction is. So. So at image think one of our values is looking while leaping. And it's kind of, you know, this idea of taking that entrepreneurial jump, but being a little bit more calculated, you know, so that you, you, you make the jump and you don't fall on your face. And I think that, you know, the past year with COVID we really embraced that a lot. And, you know, we 90% of our business is predicated on people meeting in person. And we really quickly, you know, messaged, hey, we can do this virtually. We created a lot. We launched an online academy around how to facilitate virtual sessions. We created our own kind of LinkedIn Live interview series. So I think that the amount of creativity that we like, rose to connect with our clients, like during a time where we couldn't practice the same way and service our clients in the same way, ended up actually being a great year in the end.

So we moved all of our tools around a couple different things initially, but then we settled on Mural. And as the online whiteboard spaces that we use, it was a little more colorful, a little more involving. It had stickers you could drop pictures in and that kind of thing. And we ended up using Mural. And we now use Mural for all of our online team sessions, which was like 80% of our work recently. And then now it started to go back more in person again, where we're doing quite a bit more on, you know, flip charts and whiteboards and that kind of thing. Back in face to face land. But we still have the Mural space. What tools and things did you use to adapt in the last year?

Yeah, so. So we've used Mural too, a lot of times, more internally or guided with clients. But I like, also kind of like to keep things simple. I don't have too much barrier. It depends on the group, right? If, how. If they already know the language, they're familiar with the space. So that was one that we've definitely used ourselves for us working virtually, we use Procreate and iPad. It's a great tool. We basically pivoted one person's role to basically be the AV and tech researcher. So at the beginning, it was kind of like, what platforms do we need to be able to do this in? And really just figured out a way to be flexible where our clients were, whether it was in Zoom or teams or Gather is kind of an interesting one. I don't know if you've been in Gather, it's kind of a conference platform, but you have an avatar you can move around and kind of move through the spaces. So there's a little bit more sense of autonomy around that. So we found that to be a great tool for clients that want to put on that kind of event. But really, yeah, it's really been a few basic tools and then figuring out just what, what are all the polish so that we can sort of make the technology agnostic or transparent to what the client needs, you know, and also remembering it's really about the connection, the facilitation, those kind of soft things that if you do right, you know, you don't need to lean on the technology so much.

Yeah, I totally get that. The, that that adaptation of tools and things, I think is really important for all of our teams now to, to continue to think about as we go back to this blended or hybrid working with so many teams, part, some of them working in person, some of them forever remote, some of them part time in person and blending that thing. I think interesting things will emerge from that.

Yeah, I do too. And I'm excited because this is also where I feel once everything's shut down, I think a lot of our clients were like, oh, well, we can't have meetings the same way or how do we use visuals? Just like, actually this is a great time to do it right, because you have a bunch of people, people checking out on screen and we're not all in the same space. So I'm excited to see how we can be a connective thread or the visuals and the visual leadership for leaders can be a connective thread to, you know, to work asynchronously or to connect people who are both virtually in a meeting and some people in person to create a visual map, whether it's in mural or it's in procreate, doesn't really matter. But to get, you know, to have that kind of connecting thread, that synthesis and then create that document that you can continue to look towards just like you do with your yearly visual map that we're going to need those tools. I think even more as we figure out what our new way forward is, how we're working as teams and if we're not all in the same space.

All day long, I think that whole thing and the visual with the other touch points is really useful thing to remember. It's not just auditory, although sound matters a lot. We play music in our meetings. We play music in our podcast. True music on at the beginning right with there's the music again now. Boom. We have our special theme song. We have appearances by people who show up on camera.

Hello, Elmo.

Elmo joins when to remind us that enough. It's let's move on. And he's our visual acronym for that that we picked up from another coach. We've upgraded cameras and lighting systems here. We can throw in our slides when we need to and talk about that. And it's not actually well organized right now for. For my whole thing, but like that adaptation of all of the tools and all of the things to work in a new environment and to do it now, like right now, okay, what's needed for the next meeting or the next thing, I think makes a big difference in. In all of that and, and throughout all of that, that. I love the visual piece that you're bringing in with it, helping people organize the thinking and see the thoughts and ideas and how they interrelate with. With each other like that. So how about some gratitude? Something, someone. What are you grateful for?

Oh, yeah, well, I'm totally grateful for. For all the image Think team, for sure. You know, there's one day I walked in to my office, looked around at all these people who had art backgrounds that work full time making visuals for corporations and thought, oh, I did make the art firm, after all, you know, And I think that. To think that there's people, you might feel this way too, Bill, that are passionate, committed every day to kind of your vision, right. The thing that you want to do is pretty humbling. And we had to have a lot of flexibility and ingenuity. We always do, but especially the last year and a half. So I'm really grateful for all the people who make what we do possible every day and bring a lot of passion and talent to.

You know, I think that that passion, inspiration is not personal. You have a particular vision, you have something that you want. And yet other people are lit up by it, too. Not necessarily by the same exact thing, but by something they see for themselves. That. I have a dear friend, past guest of the show as well, Randall Reeves, and he sailed around the world in a unique way. For the first time that anyone's ever done, he sailed this Figure 8 pattern around the world. It's a great show. Go listen to it if you haven't heard that one. But so he did this figure eight challenge. Now, do I want to sail around the Americas and Antarctica and through the Northwest Passage and all that? I know I definitely do not. I'm a lifetime sailor, and that's not a sale I ever want to make. But I am inspired by doing something bold, by doing something extraordinary. And so I find myself wanting to contribute to his initiative. Like, how do I help him? How do I encourage him? How do I tell more People about him, like, that whole thing, right? So that. That inspiration is not really personal, Right. I think it's really cool that people get touched and find a connection to something that's cool, that's innovative, that's inspiring, that's bold.

Yeah, I guess that's a really good point. Like, there is something, you know, why do we read biographies, right? Or why are we interested? It's like, oh, just seeing the human spirit or someone's tenacity. I just watched rewatch the film Tim's Vermeer. I don't know if you've ever seen that. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's fascinating to see how he figures out how Vermeer might have made these paintings. What I love about it is him, this guy Tim, right. Who's an entrepreneur and he's like a tinkerer. And he gets absolutely obsessed with this project where he hand builds everything and recreates that entire room. And so you're right. Like, there is something just around that kind of passion, no matter what it's for, that is magnetizing.

Yeah. It's really cool seeing somebody geek out on something, obsess with it, and become engrossed in it and like that. What are you building? What are you actually working on? What do you care about? Like, what's your longest term biggest goal?

Oh, yeah, I mentioned this. I said, you know, my biggest goal. And I thought, you know, that this would be. A lot of your guests would say, but maybe not is really, you know, building a legacy. So years ago, I went to visit a friend. She lived in this beautiful house with her husband. She's like, my husband's a massage therapist. I thought, how did the massage. That's a lot of massages. To buy this house. And he said, you know, no, I actually inherited my father's ad agency. And then I shut it down. And I said, you. You shut it down? You didn't sell it? He's like, no, you know what? I was so burnt out by the time I was ready to get out that I couldn't put in any more years to get it ready to sell. And I just shut it down. And I'm so happy. And I thought at that time, I was like, I never want that to be me, you know, so it's really trying to think about what's sustainable, where do I get the company someday large enough to hand off to someone else? Because again, it's about. I think we occupy a space that not very many people do that brings the power of visuals and skills that artists have to business. And there's a real need from both of those domains from each other. There's not a lot of places I see where they touch. So it's continuing to do that and figure out what I need to do to hand the baton someday to somebody else to keep the work moving forward.

So are you trying to make it big enough that it gets way beyond you, or are you trying to keep it to something that you enjoy?

Well, that's a good question. How do you find that balance? Right. Because I think there's also this idea that we're supposed to just grow. To grow. Right. It's just a scale to scale and, and sometimes if you're not careful. I think this is an example, another documentary about WeWork. Right. Like, I think the point where everything went wrong is when they got the billion dollar investment, you know, so. Yeah, so I don't know if it's just scale to scale, but, but, but definitely a place where there would be value for someone else to come in. Right. And it not just be yourself and not just be, you know, that you're the business, but that you've put together an organization, a culture, processes, a domain where you can kind of pass it along and not be the center point of that, of that entity.

So. And I hear the service implied. I mean, certainly an excess of hubris was at least part of the failure at WeWork.

Yeah, yeah, I would definitely.

But.

But it was interesting because things were kind of going along, but once they had that infusion of cash, they had to show a profit, they had to keep making, you know, they had to get bigger and bigger and. Right. It went completely off the rails.

Yeah.

So if. Anyway, I'm just telling your audience, if anyone wants to give me a billion dollars, I will definitely try.

So have you visualized that? Have you created a picture of the future that you want?

Yes, yes. So like you, you know, every year there's that map. And then also you mentioned, you know, we visualize kind of sort of our mission statement and you know, what we're imagining we're building towards and like legacy is definite, a big component of that. So, yeah, you got to practice what you preach. Right.

Bill, you know, sometimes the web developer has the worst website.

Yeah, it's true.

Yeah. So what do you think is your biggest challenge or gap in getting from here to there? What do you. What do you. Where. Where are you lacking something? What do you need? What do you. What do you have to develop?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. Maybe more capital could be helpful. Right. I also, you know what I honestly, you know what I've been wanting, I've been trying, this has been on my list and I haven't been able to move forward. On it is a board of advisors that was given to me because I'm a one person show. We were self funded. I did have a business partner. I bought her out years ago. We put a thousand dollars in a bank account and that's how we started Image. Think so. We never borrowed any money, we never had any investors. But what comes along with that is a little bit of counsel. Right. I mean I guess it's a little double edged sword but just a board of advisors to be that sounding board and to pull in those perspectives and moving towards that. I, I think is, would be a great, a great goal to hit and possibly give a little bit of a boost in terms of strategy. Yeah.

Interesting, interesting. What haven't I covered?

I know you got, you got my big goals, you got my biggest challenge. Asked for a billion dollars.

Yeah. So let's give folks some info about you in just a second. Let me remind everyone that we're sponsored by the EO chapters in the Bay Area. You can find information about the entrepreneurs organization@eonetwork.org Lovely that you're also a member in New York. We have 62 countries, many chapters, 15,000 plus members around the world. We've got three here in the Bay Area and we all work really cooperatively, unusually cooperatively between all those chapters. But being a member of EO gives you an instant connection to people all over the world. And also if you need to find a technology partner, Clarion Technology is our sponsor in that category. Bit ly Clariant Technology is where to go. Get more information about having a partner to help you get some of that stuff done. And Nora, your website ImageThink.com Yep.

You can find us at ImageThink.com if you want to connect with me directly. I'm on LinkedIn. Norah Herding. I think there's only one. So look forward to hearing from you.

Some of your work and, and see some of what you do and how it, how it works. And some of the rest of your team got a not insignificant team there of other people doing the same kind of thing, right?

Yeah, yeah. And then if people are interested in hearing, trying out what you and I have already figured out around the visioning and the goal setting. My book Draw youw big idea has 106 visual exercises and there's a couple just on that as well.

That's awesome. Big thanks to Lucy Summers working behind the scenes to get our show together and out the door and scheduled and promoted and prepared and all that. Big thanks also to Vern Harnish, author, creator of the Scaling Up Framework in the original Rockefeller Habits. Our audio is edited by Albert Burge at Podfly Productions. Our show notes are written up by mine Kadina and proofread by Tim McGowan. I want to thank everyone for listening and watching and encourage you to keep Scaling Up. If you want to drop us a line, send a Note to info scalingcoach.com any feedback like subscribe, give us a review. All that stuff helps us and get some out to you every week. Thanks again everyone. Keep Scaling Up.