Grow Your Business Through The Power of Podcasts with Jeremy Ryan Slate

Foreign. Oh, yeah, podcasting. I hear it's a big thing. It's like it's going to make a difference for somebody. You're probably thinking like, you listen to it, right? Maybe while you're commuting, while you're flying, while you're working out on a run, on bike, whatever. It is. Like, you love podcasts, you love. Maybe you love this show even. And. But what's the relevance? How could you use it for your business? That's the topic of our show today. How could you use podcasting to grow your business is really what our conversation is all about. Hey again, everybody, I'm Bill Gallagher, scaling coach and host of the Scaling Up Business podcast. Our show comes here every week with a guest, author, guru, CEO, somebody to do with the everything you need to know to grow your business. We're 575 episodes or so now, so we've been doing a little bit. It's worked for us and we're talking about how to do it, make it work for you. Every month we do workshops, we have coaching programs, we have special guest speakers, things like that, both public here, but also privately to help you grow and scale your company. If you want to know more about those or see or read any more of our back catalog of 575 episodes, you'll go to scalingcoach.com scalingcoach.com is our website and not hard to remember. I'm the scaling coach. ScalingCoach.com is our website. So anyway, there's lots of stuff there that like, can take this further, all these ideas. So go there. All right, listen, I'm joined now by Jeremy Ryan, Slate. So he's got a show of his own, the Jeremy Ryan Slate Show. He's a founder and CEO of a company called Command. You'd brand he's written a book unremarkable to extraordinary. We were just talking with Guy Kawasaki the other day about remarkable people, and he's got a lot to say about how to use shows, and he's going to share with us some examples and why he got in this business and all that kind of thing. Welcome to the show, Jeremy.

Hey, thanks for having me. And actually, Guy Kawasaki was in the book I wrote a few years ago, so, so, so great to. To follow him. Not long after, man, it was like.

Two or three episodes ago, just recently. Yeah, he's somebody that I've known somewhat casually for, like, I don't know, several decades. So I don't know, before we get into this, maybe, maybe it's totally on topic Maybe off topic, but I understand you have a master's degree in history. What? How do you go into history and how does that deal with what you are in today?

More specifically, the Roman Empire, believe it or not. So when people started thinking about the Roman Empire last September, I'm like, ah, here's my big break. Here it is, man. Typically recommend people do the college experience like I did. I commuted to school and I took things literally just because they interested me. So my undergrad degree, I was a double major in Catholic Theology and Judaism, and then I ended up studying at New College, Oxford. I did a literature program and then I came back and got my master's in the Roman Empire. And it's because in undergrad I had been absolutely obsessed with Alexander the Great. And if you see my office now, I look like a crazy person. Like I'm a bust of Alexander the Great on my desk. I have Roman statues, Greek statues, and. And I had read this one obscure article about right after the fall of the Republic, Augustus actually goes and prays at the tomb of Alexander. And I was like, oh, wow, what is he doing? So that sent me down this rabbit hole of wanting to understand not just the Roman Empire, but actually the propaganda behind it, because I find that weird enough. I work in PR now. I find that the way we talk about things, describe things, and the visuals we set up are much of, you know, how we're able to control thoughts and ideas.

Yeah, There is something interesting there about how the narrative of history is, they say, written by the victors. Right. And there's a framing of things that goes on that is very hard to escape or look behind or around and see things from different perspectives. Right, yeah.

Because even the famous date of the. The fall of the Roman Empire in 476 AD is because it's the. The Eastern Roman Emperor tries to reunite the east and the west by conquering the West. Well, his scribes are the ones that wrote the history you read, so he's not going to want to make himself look bad. So of course his publicists are going to make him look good. So much of our history is curated by the experience. The people that want us reading it, want us to have with it.

You know, it's an interesting thing. Surprising, it's probably not an expertise of most of our listeners and viewers, but. But I'm fascinated by this, that we all want to control the narrative and we want to tell a positive story. And yet some of those powerful stories and storytellers who capture stuff, talk about not just their successes and what makes them great, but about their struggles, about their moments of being right at the cusp of a decision, about the times that they really wanted to quit or nearly quit, like, those are the more. And a lot of CEOs and business leaders are really reluctant to go there. Like, it's just not a comfort. And yet there's a lot of storytelling power there.

Well, it's relatable. And I think that's the difference is human beings make mistakes. We, you know, if you look at a professional baseball player, you could be a Hall of famer if you hit.300, but that means seven out of 10 times you struck out or you grounded out or whatever it might be. And I think people connect better with your failures because there are things that they can experience and see in their lives. And I think as well, I don't know if you saw the FTC filing that came out not long ago, that they're going to start going after influencers that may have bought their followings online or paid for bad review, you know, paid for reviews or whatever it might be. And so I don't know what the enforcement mechanism on that is going to be, but that's kind of to be decided. So 2025 could be a very interesting year. But I think the thing that's interesting about that is if you look at life on social media, oftentimes it's not real life. And I think what we've started to see in the last couple years is we've seen, and podcasting has been a big part of this. We've seen people sharing more of their successes, their failures, their real life. And I think it makes you so much more relatable and so much more real to people. And it's going to be interesting as we kind of go in out of that influencer economy of people, you know, only showing their successes and, you know, doing all their quote cards and fun stuff like that. We're going into kind of the, the real world of social media now, if that makes sense.

Well, we have seen plenty of that, especially like on the lifestyle side of things where people just want to present, like, you know, everything, their morning routine in their perfect outfit, and then they get in the perfect car in the perfect place with their perfect partner and like, oh my God.

Or they paid for that photo in front of that private jet that they didn't fly on.

And it's kind of funny now to see all the things, like, behind the scenes. And I'm like, you know, we think of this, like, there have been folks out there selling courses and things like that that are like, oh, look at, I don't care about these Lamborghinis. It's the books that I really love. And I'm like, oh, come on. Such a. It's, it's. It becomes so unrelatable at some point and unrealistic and then everybody feels bad about themselves. And I don't know that you're necessarily inspiring anyone with some of those things, but definitely some people will buy into that.

They will. But I think that the thing that's kind of exciting right now is I think that you're seeing for those of us that have always been real people, I think it's going to be a really exciting, you know, next six to 18 months. I think as, as kind of the online world changes a lot and you're going to have those of us that have been doing these things for a long time and have had our successes and our failures and hopefully we've, you know, got more base hits than we've got now. I think you're going to see a big difference. Now in the next couple of years.

We are starting to see more business leaders bringing humility, their leadership, but not all of them. I mean, you know, the, the biggest, most visible business leader in the world seems to be like an, an unstoppable. A hole who is just torching his personal brand on the regular and his associated companies and everywhere. Like in, in my neighborhood now, I live in the west coast and so it's predictably pretty liberal. But people who are huge fans of the Tesla cars are like, they don't want any part of the brand anymore and they're definitely suffering because of the, the leaders. Unstoppable, sor. Opinionating.

I think yes and no, because I think at the same time, you know, there's some people that, that do like that as well. And I, I think, you know, having the ability, I, I think here, here's the struggle online as well is I think we need more free speech, not just speech we like, because, you know, I've made some really bad points and I hope somebody would make a better point to, to strengthen them and vice versa. But I think we have to be able to have those conversations in the court of public opinion, you know.

Yes, except. So we're talking about, like being vulnerable and sharing the reality of things. Just having a lot of opinions about things. Right. Doesn't make you relatable, does it?

Well, yes and no, because there might be people that agree with those opinions. Right. So if There are people that agree with those opinions that's going to communicate to them or maybe they have similar realities, similar upbringing, similar living experiences.

In our work, it feels like talking about yourself and your work humbly is much more useful than mouthing off about everything else in the world. You know, I going off about politics or healthcare. I'm fascinated with this notion of leadership and are we helping or hurting the brand? I was actually having conversation with a family member who's like, oh, I think he's really helping his brand, his company value, like, like, we'll see in time, like if that's the case or not. Undeniable, a force of entrepreneurship and a powerful personal brand. Let's talk about you then.

Yeah.

And why don't you. So you went through a significant event, changed your life. You shared with us your mother suffered a stroke. Talk about how that went and its effect on you.

So for me, I got out of grad school with a degree in the Roman Empire, and it's like, what do you do with that? Absolutely nothing, unless you get a PhD, which I did not have. So you don't teach at the college level? I ended up teaching at Catholic school and I taught US history and sociology and criminology. So I had a. I got eaten up very quickly because I had sophomores and, you know, I'm two years away from away from 40. So you can imagine how I looked in my early 20s. I looked like I was in school at that school. So the kids ate me for lunch very quickly, and I was just not very happy doing that job. That was in 2011. In 2012, my mom ended up having a really, really bad stroke. And it made me look at a lot of the different things I was doing in my life. And until this day, you know, we've still had. Had my mom to see me get married and have three kids and, and all that. But she is very disabled. You know, lost her language skills, her ability to get around well and things like that. And it made me look at a lot of the different things I'm doing in my life. Like, do I want to do this? Am I actually happy doing this? Am I feeling fulfilled? Because I was miserable every single day going to work. Compounded by. This was the early days of social media, where kids are saying, how angry can we get this guy and get him on YouTube? So I was very quickly getting burnt out and I just decided to quit on a whim. And I tried a number of different things, seeing what would work. I did online marketing, network marketing. I sold Life insurance, which I was actually really good at selling life insurance. But I don't know, man. It takes a special kind of person to talk about death every day. So it just wasn't that fun and I wasn't that person. And I actually started a podcast, clearly as a. Just a hobby, as I was working at a friend's marketing agency. And we saw 10,000 listens in our first month. And it was. I thought there was something here. And, you know, that was back in 2015, at this point in time. And now I've worked in this world for almost a decade.

I think it's really useful to have any kind of wake up call that has you assess your life and your choices, how you're spending your time, because we all have limited amount of time and yet none of us knows how much we have. Yeah, like that. Yeah.

It makes you look at everything you're doing and you're like, you know, if I'm not happy now, am I going to be happy five years from now, 10 years from now, whatever it might be. And at the same time, you know, I just couldn't see myself doing teaching every day. Which is funny because I feel like now at the world I'm in, I'm teaching on a scale that I could have never imagined in a way I could have never imagined. I've spoken on stages all over the US and Asia and South America, and these are just things I couldn't see myself doing. And I'm making a bigger impact, man. It's been really cool.

Is your mom still with you?

She's still with us. My parents live half the year here in New Jersey and they live half the year in Florida just because they don't really like doing the whole winters of New Jersey thing anymore. But she is very disabled to this point, so without me or my dad, because I'm an only child, there's not a lot that she can pull off. So she, she's able to get around a bit, but she doesn't have language skills or anything like that. So it's definitely been hard.

Right? That's a, that's a. That's got to be a really challenging thing to. It is converse, right. You grow up with someone and, and still they're there. Like, we know if somebody passes, then.

That'S the hard part, man, because it's kind of like, I don't know how to explain this and not sound rude, but it's like, you know, when my mom does eventually pass, it's kind of like I've lost Her twice. Do you know what I mean? Because it's like I haven't had a real meaningful in depth conversation, whether in 10 plus years. So I think it is, it is a deep loss and at some point in time it will be a loss again. You know.

The last some years of my dad's life were very challenging for me. I've spoken about it before and it was hard to initially. Now it's not hard anymore, but it was hard initially to reconcile how difficult it was then with what, what a hero and how powerful a figure he'd been for me growing up. Right. Like, and to see the two now, today, I can integrate the two. Like, he, he was an extraordinary thing. And even though his life didn't end beautifully, like, I, I can, you know, put that in with the whole picture. Right. He can still be awesome in my world. Yeah. So you started and then talk about starting command your brand. So you went from that, you started to do more of the things you love and you've ended up with this. Talk about the business that you have today and how that grew.

Yeah. So we like to see ourselves as the, the PR firm for the podcast world because I feel like these conversations are the ones that need to be having and they're not being had elsewhere, whether it's in traditional media or whatever it might be, because we're having long form conversations where we can actually discuss things. So back in 2015, I started that show, which was originally called the create your own life show, and it's now called the, the Jeremy Ryan slate show. Um, we saw 10,000 listens in our first month and I started talking to a lot of people that I really admire. And I think now we're almost 1300 episodes deep at this point in time. And it was very quickly in that we started having people asking me for help and I'm like, well, help doing what? And initially it was starting podcasts and the things we found that since we were working with a lot of busy CEOs to actually run their own show was really, really hard, even if we were doing everything for them. So one of the actions we started doing, we were launching shows, is getting people on other shows. And we found that that was the 20% of what our clients like, was actually just going on shows. We got rid of the other half of the business focused on that, and we've just, we've went so deep on that over the years. Because at the same time, podcasts are more than a download number, they're more than a chart ranking. There's so much to them. So we've been, over the years, we've even developed our own ranking system to take a look at what, what is a podcasts have to have behind it to show there's a brand there. And I think we've really focused deep on that and having great conversations and putting our clients in the right place.

This is the thing that. And the reason I wanted to do this show with you, because I think so many people have come to me and said, bill, the show's done great for you. I should start a show. And I'm like, maybe, maybe you should. But it's a big yeah. And I'm not sure that everybody should. And I said, before you think about starting a show, seriously, maybe go be a guest on 100 shows, do a hundred shows, see what you have to say, find, build some audience, build some brand. And then maybe if you start, if you still think you have a show in you, then, then you might have gotten to a point where you're ready to go do that. And, and I've told a lot of people and more and more people are listening, like, oh, yeah, that's maybe a cheaper, better way to do it. Because if you start your own show, then you've got to build a whole audience around it. There's investment. It may take time to build your audience and to find your groove and then to make it really great, you've got to be consistent with it.

Yes.

And that means doing it every whatever week, month, day, like that kind of thing. And that is a whole other thing.

Well, and I think too, most people get into it for the wrong reasons. Because my favorite conversation is people like, all right, so how do I monetize this thing? And I think that's the problem is when people are thinking of that as their primary goal, then that shows me they don't get it. Because I think the podcast has the most effect for 99.9% of people if it aligns with a business you already have. But I think for a lot of people, they think they're going to start a show in about six weeks. About six weeks, there'll be Joe Rogan and they'll be getting $100 million deal from Spotify and that'll be the end of it. And they'll do all this advertising thing. For most people, that's not the way it's going to work. I think a podcast is an incredible vehicle to, number one, help you network with impossible people. Right. Like, you know, I've had people like Seth Godin Guy Kawasaki. Like, I've had conversations like that on my show where those people probably wouldn't give me the time of the day if I'm just like, you know, Joe Blow out there somewhere. So the high level networking is awesome, but also the ability to create trust with the people listening to you is awesome. But I will tell you as well, and you've probably seen this bill as well, people don't have enough patience to be able to build that and put that there. And that's why I think for most people, the best thing you can do, as you said, is start with going on shows first for two different reasons. Number one, you're going to get your feet wet and you're going to learn how to be a good guest. But number two, you're going to understand how podcasts work. I think a lot of people want to, I think before we started recording here, I jumped on, I said longtime listener, first time callers as a joke. But I think a lot of people want to think this is kind of the next evolution of radio and it's not really that. It's something totally different. So I think to really get on a podcast, have a conversation and get your feet wet is valuable. But you'll find if you do those hundred interviews, you're going to be a better host because you understand what it's like to be on the other side of the mic.

That is a thing. And you know, every, some shows do a lot of editing and a lot of interviewing and prep and production. That's a fairly expensive way that is not as common anymore. And so many more shows are like this, like an interview that's going to get recorded largely straight through and, and so your prep is before and after. I think it's great advice. And of course you are going to figure out if you do like to talk, if you are comfortable to talk in this setting, like behind a microphone, which is distinct and different. If you had a background in radio, it might help you. But of course, today we do the vast majority of our shows we're doing with both audio and video.

Yes.

So you've got both of it. And so you've got to do that. Plus you've got to get your video and your lighting set up in case for that, for the video side of it. And even if it's not a video for a show, there's probably going to be clips that are going to pull out of it and, and put across social media as we do.

Well, I think Even in, in 2024, if you're not doing video, you know, you're really harming yourself because I think those of us like, you know, as I've been around for a long time, Bill. So as I mentioned, I was a podcast purist for a long time and I refused to do video until about three years ago. And I think you're actually hurting yourself if you're not doing video now. Because you know, your number one way for discoverability now is YouTube. You know, they added the RSS fees RSS feed feature in January. You're seeing a lot of these different platforms push to video. So your discoverability is a lot better. It is very hard to build an audio only podcast. So video has to be a big focus for you, even if it's not that you're going to have professional studio quality video. But I think that's where a lot of these AI tools come in. Because there are some incredibly good AI tools out there that can cut your cost by 70 or 80% and also get you a way better product.

Getting your like, of course the message is the most important thing, but the distraction, if your audio is bad, if your video's bad of like being preoccupied with that is so in the way of your message. And I see that again and again with somebody who gets on and they've got a terrible mic and or that you just hear every pop, crackle, you hear their dog. Like well, every now and then you hear my dog. But.

Well, my favorite tool for that by the way, is called Crisp AI. It is a background sound filter and you can do anything you want. And you're not going to hear on the mic unless it's your own voice.

That's pretty cool. That is. Well, there's all kinds of tricks, right? There's different kinds of equipment that you can make and now there's AI and editing tools and that kind of thing. I actually don't look at, I don't do. I have never really done much of anything on the back end. The editing, the cleanup, the eq, none of that. On my show right from the beginning, I had somebody else doing that because I'm like, I just want to focus on this part, on the conversation.

Yeah. And I, I, I, I think your video and audio need to be just good enough. I think that's kind of what it comes down to is it's just good enough. So it's not a distraction because it really should be about the conversation and why you're doing this. And I think you have to understand that podcasts are first and foremost an Education platform. People come here to learn something and to get something out of it, I think. And you've probably seen this out of guests as well. I think people show up sometimes that they, like, want to put their feet up and wait for their leads after they get on an interview, when it's really about how much value are you going to offer to the show you're on and how are you going to teach people? Because people are coming here to learn something from you.

Now, talk about. Let's divert a minute from some of our stories because I think we're pointing to something. What are maybe some of the biggest mistakes that you see people do when they try to go be a guest or pitch on shows? What are the kinds of. Because I. Getting pitched guests on the regular. There are some things that I'm like, what. What are people missing? I've had, I don't know, seven or eight pitches today for shows that I'm like, I. I don't even want to reply to this, you know, well, there's.

The basic of it, of get the host name right and their show name right. I think that's, you know. You know what I mean? Like, we can see you swapped out of your template because the font size changed. So, like, I, I think, yeah, it's. It is realizing that when you're reaching out to shows, it is going to take a higher number to reach out in order to get yourself booked on shows. But you have to kind of understand where is that balance to getting your story out there, but also individualizing it to the shows you're reaching out to because it has to matter to that particular audience. So that is a really, really important balance. So get the host name right, get the show name right, but also you want to talk about things they care about, because I know for me, I'll get some pitches. Like, have these guys even looked at what I talk about? Like, it's like I, like, I'm not a big fan of, of coaches, but I get pitched by coaches all the time. And I think if you consumed my content at all, you'd have an idea that that's what I. Not that I expect you to listen to every episode or be a super fan, but I know you just picked out one episode name that looks similar to what you want to talk about to try and show me that you like the show, but you don't actually like it. So I think that's kind of the first thing, making it relevant to the show you're pitching to. But I think second of all, People also have the they like, overwhelm in a pitch. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you open the email and it feels like verbal vomit. And you're my first response when I get a long email. I don't know about you. Bill is like, dear God, I'm not reading this. So to me, if you're going to do a pitch, you want to keep it short. Like, you need to one to two paragraphs and get to the point very, very, very quickly. What is in it for the people listening? But I think far too often people have the idea of, I want to sell this product. This show is going to do it for me. I'm going to overwhelm them and I'm going to lead with that. And you're not going to have a lot of success, man. So, like, the number one thing in pitches is that is people overwhelm. They do the wrong name. And they've sent this out to 50,000 other podcasts out there in the world. So I think when you're looking at pitching, that's the first thing. But when you're looking at actually, like being on a show, I think the thing as well is leading with value, because too often people want to send you to their next opt in or send you to a page in their book or whatever it might be. You have to remember when you're there, this might be the only time people ever experience you. You don't have enough trust yet to ask for something else.

I get the. The pitches that irritate me begin with that overwhelm. Right. So they try to do something clever. Like, Bill, we really love your show with Guy Kawasaki and we think you'll love this next guest. He could talk about these seven different things. And then they do a lot of credibility. And I'm like, I don't care really how credibility. Unless his name is so much like Guy Kawasaki, it is not a draw in itself. I don't know he or she. And there are seven topics I don't want to choose. Tell me what your good topic is. What's the one that's right for this show? Pitch me one topic, one story idea. Tell me why it's fresh. I really think I could make a difference with your audience. Okay, why, like, what do you have to say?

That I just have a general disdain for long emails too, so if you send me anything along about anything, there's a good chance I'm never going to read it.

Yeah, it's. It's an interesting thing that. That comes along. So Overselling your credibility. Too many topics, too long. Email, sloppy pandering. And those are some beginning things.

And that's even get people to read your email to begin with.

Bad lighting, bad camera and bad microphone. It's going to be a great show.

It's gonna be an amazing show. I, you know, I've actually, and I've. And maybe I'll do this at some point in time. I wanted to start another podcast where I actually just sit and read the pitches I get in my inbox. Be fun. I've seen people read their spam box. That's a fun one.

It's very similar. Hey Bill, love what you did with, you know, whatever. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about maybe.

Why.

Don'T you talk about a couple of the companies you worked with. You shared with me about a doctor on the east coast. Talk about that one maybe and, and then we'll talk about what you've done with shows and like that.

Yeah. So when you want to be successful as a guest, there's kind of a couple different methods you have to have to look at. And I think for a lot of people, they're thinking of podcasts, you know, purely as like a lead gen thing. And I think when you look at podcasts, it's really a trust vehicle, it's a public relations vehicle. So getting people to know you, like you and trust you. But I will say terrible lead gen. It is.

It's terrible lead gen working out or driving or whatever. And they're not going to like stop, pause and do your inquiry well.

And you've probably seen all the different ways over the years. Here buys tax code, here's this, here's that. So people have tried so many different things. Now the thing that we've seen successful actually for product based businesses and this is Dr. Michael, the doctor I was talking about, he's out of, I think he's at Pompano Beach, Florida. But anyway, he sells an aloe product and we actually, he's got a really cool story around it. But what he actually ended up doing is doing affiliate deals with all the hosts for the shows he was on. So it worked really well then because there's something in it, not just the information, but there's also something in it for the host. Now they have to disclose and say, hey, we're an affiliate for this because otherwise it puts you in a little bit of an FCC violation area. But we found affiliate deals to work really, really well. And I think he made, it was around 55 or $60,000 just from a single podcast of promoting a health product. So a really good affiliate deal with the right audience could be really, really beneficial to you. But I think for a lot of people, they're stuck on this advertising model. And when you realize that if there's an affiliate deal, there's something in it for the host as well as in it for you, in addition to the information, it's a really, really, really great way to go about things. So for Dr. Mike, he came to us with somebody that had just started a new business. He was going out of being a doctor in practice to trying to start something more virtual. And we did our job so well that we're still friends to this day. But he's like, hey, guys, I actually don't need to pay you anymore because now people are finding me. And I think that that's what ends up happening is you start to get to this point where you've created so much attention and so much out there that you start to create imbalance. And I think that's when you know in PR that you're winning is when people start to find you for the topics you're discussing.

It feels to me like, so we've had ad sponsor messages and we've also had affiliate partners in that. That we get a piece of whatever they offer and, and we try to make sure that we disclose it when we have it and that kind of thing. And, and, and say, like, if it's something that we also use and use with our clients. But. So we've done both of those things. But I feel like even then some of them work strong and if it's really compelling, if there's real value in it or it's really novel, we get more uptake than if it's just another whatever. A me too service that, you know, there's a hundred providers out there doing things like it or more.

Well, there's a. The personal story aspect of it, I think, is. Is really, really important because I know for me, like, we've promoted a lot of different affiliate products on my show. The one that we still make the most money with is a parasite cleanse. I went to Peru a bunch of years ago, had some bad ceviche, and I picked up something called liver fluke, and they actually eat your liver and they're kind of disgusting. You know, if you want to Google it, go ahead. And that product was a giant health change for me, so that we actually ended up promoting that. For a doctor that's been on the show a couple times and that's been our best selling health product. So I think the personal experience part is really important. I know this is back in 2019. Tim Ferriss tends to promote a lot of products on his show that are products he uses. But he tried to go to the whole like user sponsored model where they don't promote products and he actually got people that emailed him starting him to asking him to promote the products again. So I think there is an important aspect of that if you cannot shift with a win and just promote products you like.

I think in his case it's because his whole message has been sort of about personal optimization, life hacks so that whatever Ashwagandha t or this or that or Bulletproof ever something like, you know he's all about that kind of thing. And I think a little bit like that's people go to that. When you think about some old school paper magazines, people, many of them fashion mags in particular, you know, people want to see the ads. The ads are as much a part of the content as anything else. And that's not the case with everything we listen to or watch and I.

But I think you have to cultivate that environment right and that and that is by being very particular on products you promote. Like if you promote something it should be something you use. Like as I said for Dr. Mike he was given host protocols to use before he ever had him on the show so they could see if it actually worked for them. So I think the personal experience aspect is vital to actually seeing success as an affiliate.

Yeah, really interesting. And then you also mentioned the Make a Wish foundation that you've done some work talk about that campaign.

Well, I think there's a big misconception with Make a Wish is I think people hear of that and they think of it being like a child's last wish. And the reason they actually do the campaigns, this is one of the opinions we were helping to shift is it's to give kids hope to be able to actually do something more in what they're doing. And I think when you look at that that is the value in these conversations is you can start to shift viewpoints out there. So we actually had a doctor that was a former wish kid that handled the situation that they were going through and became a doctor and is now helping other kids. So I think it's very cool to kind of see that it's this idea that it's not just the kid's last wish, it's an idea to give them hope to actually be able to do Something more. So I think fully understanding those things and shifting public opinion is a very powerful thing. And that's, you know, we weren't the whole campaign, but we were a big part of that campaign to help them do that.

You know, I hear this and I hear like, so sharing information is great, but sharing information as a storyteller, sharing it in a captivating, entertaining way seems to really matter too. Like, you know, you could give people cold information with a robotic voice and bullet point speak and you'd convey the same thing. But if you can somehow touch people with messages that engage them emotionally, that inspire them, that change their point of view, that's a far more interesting thing to do and not, you know, that's not just the next click of your AI prompt.

And I think that's important too, because it's not. You have to remember that podcasts aren't just informational, it's entertainment. People are here because they love it. Like one of my favorite podcasts, and I've listened to it for 10 years, it's called the no Agenda Show. It's hosted by Adam Curry. He's actually the guy that invented podcasting way back in the day. And they tried to make it like a, like a Z100 morning show that discusses, like really hard news topics. So they like, they played clips and they play these jingles and stuff they've made. And I'm very entertained by the show. And I think it's really important to remember that people aren't just here to learn, they're also here to be entertained. And to some aspect, you have to be a showman within reason, right? You don't want it to be weird. But I think it is important to remember that you are here to entertain people.

Well, there are a number of shows like that that bring in. They skew more on the entertainment side and less on the content. And to be honest, there's a lot of times that I kind of enjoy some of those clips and they're lighter on the thing, but I'm engaged. And then maybe I pick up something. Smartless comes to mind. Bobby Altoff show some of these things, they're very entertaining. They high on that kind of thing. But more of our business shows should have that. I had two speaker trainer mentors who said roughly the same thing to me years ago, and I've taken it to heart. It's like you have to remember that any moment you're competing with like, TV and food and movies and the Internet and sex and like, whatever else people could be doing to spend their time. And so you gotta like, be a little bit entertaining, be a little bit engaging, bring a little charisma, some storytelling to what you're doing.

And it's a big part of it. Because people don't want to just learn, they want to be entertained. And that's why a lot of the things that we see out there, whether it's a morning show or whether it's podcasts or different videos, you need to keep engagement. That's why if you look at some of the best YouTube videos, the thing you're always watching is your AVD or average view duration. The ones that do the best are the ones that had the best B roll and they added other things to it because they actually keep you engaged. If you don't keep people engaged, it doesn't matter how good your subject matter is or how good your mission is, you're going to lose them.

Yeah, it's funny, we just had. I was just at a conference recently and I heard a speaker come up and he gave a talk that was very like, I've heard like versions of that talk a few times. But he was particularly animated and charismatic in his delivery. And so at a time when he, he could have put everyone to sleep, he managed to pull out something about something that was otherwise fairly basic.

Right.

He just up the showmanship, up the passion, up the engagement of something and made it compelling.

And I think that's what you have to do, man. It's about keeping people engaged. Because if you don't, you can't teach them anything, if you can't have their interests, right. I look at the best teachers I had in school and actually the reason I love the Roman Empire so much is I had this professor that I'm still friends with to this day, actually just talked to him yesterday and he looked and sounded like Neil Patrick Harris and he would drop these one liner jokes in the middle of teaching. I'd be like, wait, what did he just say? And I think that's what like the best teachers I've had for that way they keep you engaged and keep you interested.

Yes, surprise, delight, segue. Keep them off balance, right? Entertain, make them laugh, make them cry, make them cock their head like the dog who isn't sure what they just heard. So I met some, I actually met two different people recently who proudly showed me the book they'd written with a podcast, without a podcast, using AI. And they were like, fantastic. And I flipped through both of them and I thought they were both totally disposable books. And so the second time around I said, you know what, I'd love to get a PDF of that so I can have my AI summarize it for me. I'm curious, you've used and recommend using a podcast to write a book. Talk to me about that. How do people take their appearances, their show and turn that into something into other media?

Well, I guess the thing you have to consider is, you know, and I've seen people do this, and it's a terrible way to do things, is don't put out a book of transcripts and call it a book. It is not a book, it is a transcript. So the thing that I've actually done is when I wrote my book Unremarkable to Extraordinary about three years ago, that the thing that I actually took a look at is I had core concepts that I wanted to cover and then I actually found stories and the conversations I had and transcribe those. We then took those transcripts and put them into Google Docs and then I actually used voice text in order to actually add in the pieces that were missing. And then I had a human editor then go through it and help me kind of humanize it a lot more. But I think if you can use a podcast as kind of a long term research project to talk about the different topics you want to talk about, I think there's a ton of value in that, but it doesn't mean just dumping transcripts into a book and using them. To me, I love tools that make things easier for me, but at the same time, you can't take the human element out of it. So I've took found 12 different topics I really wanted to cover and I felt were important to be an extraordinary individual. Found some stories that really matched that guy Kawasaki's is one of them. Being a, being a brand evangelist, I think that's important. Took transcripts of those stories and then I filled in the missing parts using speech to text through Google Docs because I'm all thumbs when it comes to typing. So I find that is a lot easier for me. And then God bless the human editor that then helped me put the whole thing together so that it actually sounded like somebody with a high enough IQ wrote it. So I think it is a real process. But I think a lot of times people want to say, all right, I write my book. And it's like, well, good luck with that. You have to figure out how to use AI to fill in your gaps and actually help you make something of value to the end user.

You know, I I'm no stranger to AI. We use it with our clients almost every day and, and in our work. But I heard those folks and I'm like, well, let me see what I could do. So I went back and I followed their instructions and in one case, some of their prompts, that kind of thing. And I made a serious attempt to outline and then write a book. And if I just said, you know, write me a book based on this, it was complete trash. And didn't it essentially just bombed.

And the sentence structure is a little weird, by the way. Like, no human being speaks like that.

And then the next one, I said I was okay, if we wanted a book about this topic with this drawing on this source material, what would the main ideas be? And so that was somewhat useful, like, how would you organize this? So some outlines, some summary, some ideas. Great. And then I said, okay, write me a chapter of, however, you know, 2,000 words or something, hitting on these points and telling these stories, drawing from this material. And it was just complete, like nonsensical trash at that point. But if I went in and I said, give me 500 words about this, I can often get something interesting. So there's some point at which, like, it's. It seems to just produce nonsense, like gray gibberish.

Well, I think when you look at AI and I don't know if you heard of, there was a lawyer not long ago that got disbarred for trying to use ChatGPT to help him with case law that didn't actually exist. I think when you look at AI and this is why I don't think that Skynet is ever taking over as much as people want to claim it is. I think it's a good way to make you to cut time and to actually be more efficient at what you're doing and have a higher productivity output, but I think to think it's ever going to replace people, number one, is pure just laziness. But number two, the outputs you're going to get are absolutely terrible. Now, the thing I do worry about is I do worry about the effect this is going to have on our literacy in the next five or 10 years. But I think if you can realize how to use AI to be more productive and get more done with what you're doing. Like, for example, I used AI not long ago to help us redo our brand standards. So I asked it, okay, if I'm going to do a brand standards manual, what are the 10 things that should be in it? So it gave me a list of 10 different things. I'm like, great, okay, good. Let's talk about the first one. Brand voice. What kind of questions should I be asking you if I want to know what a brand voice sounds like? So then I had it ask me the questions, and then I answered the questions, and then it gives you a list of things that you can use to then write the narrative. But I think to chatgpt to say, all right, write me a narrative about my brand voice. Well, that's useless. You use it to help you iterate. Right? To help.

Yes. Yeah, well done. I think that's a core message, like, use it smart. Use it in pieces against something. But don't just try to invoke your ultimate lazy easy button and check out from your job making something relevant, because.

You'Re going to ask it to write you something. And it's like, we're going to go on a journey to learn about. And you're like, okay, this is AI.

Yeah, well, lots of good things to think about here. I think the core message that we want to share with folks you're talking about every day, and that is use shows to get your brand out there. It's a fantastic PR vehicle. And there's. I don't know how many. Do you know how many shows there are today active?

It depends on which platform you talk to, because there's a fight between Spotify and Apple for who's the biggest. So Spotify likes to say there's like 3.6 million, and then Apple likes to say there's 3.1 million. But then if you dive deeper into that, I think only 18% of them are active. So that means you have a much, much lower number of podcasts that are actually out there. So.

Yeah, well, there are. So there are scads, you could say a bajillion shows that are looking for guests, for people, for stories, and there's a lot of opportunity to get there. So be smarter about getting on them. Maybe thinking about working with a company like Jeremy's. The Jeremy's company is commandyourbrand.com we'll throw the link on the screen and we'll put it in the show notes as well. CommandYourBrand.com and talk to him or go it alone. It's always easier to get some help, somebody who's done it before. But there's a lot of fertile opportunity to help grow your brand using shows like this. Let me give and then wrap and say a couple things. Shout out. Thanks to my friend and mentor, Verne Harnish, who created the whole scaling up framework and the Rockefeller habits that came before it. And to the people at Storion, Crystal, Seth Cameron and the team who get our show prepared, ready, produced, distributed, promoted, all that every week and to everyone for watching, for listening. If you want to find out more, go to one of our workshops or do that kind of thing. You'll go to scalingcoach.com and you'll find all that. Or just like subscribe wherever you are now. If you're on Apple or if you're on Spotify or anywhere else you get your show, go there. Or you can go to scalingcoach.com you can subscribe to our newsletter. You can do our workshops, that kind of thing. Find out about our coaching program so we help you grow your business. We make it much easier. We take out the struggle and the suffering and can make the process more fun than it probably is today to grow your company. So hopefully it's helpful. We'll talk to you again next week. Until then, keep scaling.