Joanna Bloor argues that hiring is a mutual purchase of time and future value, and that companies need clearer frameworks for recognizing potential. She outlines three leader archetypes—coach, patron, investor—and offers practical hiring questions to surface the people who will actually grow into the role.
Chapters
Foreign.
We're talking about potential today. Your potential, the potential of your people, potential of your company. Really, if you're not interested focusing on thinking about how to develop potential, you're missing out on opportunity. Right? Nobody wants a tombstone that really eats potential. Potential intact. We want to fully. We want to fully.
That's a very good way of putting it. Yes, absolutely.
Grim their potential, everybody. My name is Bill Gallagher, scaling coach and host of this Scaling Up Business podcast. Our show comes to you every week and we deal with all the things to do with growing your company, growing your team, growing yourself as a leader. So leadership, people, strategy, execution, cash. All the things that you'd encounter along the way of trying to make something really big in the world, trying to realize your full potential, the full potential of your business and your team. And that is the subject of our show today. We've done 450 shows or so. And you'll find them all@scalingcoach.com links there as well as all of our services, live events, private coaching, all kinds of things like that. Scalingcoach.com right there on the screen or in the show notes, as you like. Anyway, we're getting into it now with a very good friend, closer friend really, to my wife Lori, than. Than to me, although friends. And Joanna Bloor joins us now from probably just down the street. Right down the road.
Down the road. You could probably reach out and touch each other if we tried hard enough.
And then just one other connection before I tell you about what makes Joanna awesome, past guest of the show, her husband Randall, who we talked to by satellite phone while he was circling Antarctica.
Was he actually doing it when you spoke to him? That's amazing.
Right? So you get already an idea that we're not talking to ordinary humans. Jonah Bloor is past executive with a whole bunch of interesting companies. Cars, dot com, Pandora. Did I say CEO, Past executive leader on those teams. And she's got a new book out, Tales of Potential. She's also founder of a company called Amplify Lab. She's been a TEDx speaker or TED speaker. She's all kinds of groovy stuff about this woman. You'll get a sense of it right away. Welcome to show Joanna.
Thank you for having me. Looking forward to actually having. We haven't had a chance to catch up in a while, so this will be a great opportunity for us to catch up too.
No, so I, I said you're a friend of my wife. Like you and some other folks are. Are good friends and get together all the time. So I usually hear, oh, Joanna's got a new book out. And I heard that recently and said oh yeah, we should definitely cover it. We love to cover new books that have business relationship. So tales of potential. The Cinderella story, you haven't heard. And I know we have men and women both on the show and the Cinderella story applies to both. Obviously it's written with particular and very traditional gender roles. The prince and the princess to be and. Right, all that. But the, the ideas and the principles apply to both. So I think before we get into it, although I know you, you should probably say a little bit more to our listeners, viewers about your background and kind of write this book.
Why. Why am I here?
Sure. Why are you here?
Yeah, I, I mean it was, it's been now several years, but I, I always think about like life before being an entrepreneur. Like a lot of your listeners, I was in the growing companies business for many, many years. Something like 25 years. I got was very lucky and got on the dot com bandwagon early and so got to be part of lots of different companies in their super early stages. You talked about Cars.com, citysearch for those people who are old enough to remember them, OpenTable, Pandora, CNET, you name it. And what I did for basically all of them was get thrown in the deep end on multiple different projects, opportunities, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all really tied back to how do we grow revenue. And they're just going to throw me in the deep end and go can you figure out how to make something about this? And I would stand up ideas, businesses, all sorts of things very similar to you. I was like this internal scaling up person for a company and a lot of that was making shit up as we went along because in the world of or really web 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0, like there was never a roadmap, there was never a guidebook, there was never, there was nothing to really say, look, this is how you should do it. And so I got really comfortable A being thrown in the deep end. I was like this is kind of fun. And then B, really being given initiatives and projects where nobody really knew what the hell we were doing or what we wanted to go for. And that like real comfort around ambiguity. And when, when I stopped doing that several years ago, I was kind of running around saying like, oh, what do I want to do with this next? And like what's happening? And a very long story short later came back to who I have been and what I have always been incredibly confident and comfortable and creative. Doing is explaining how to buy things that people do not understand. Whether it was websites back in 1995, to technology later in my career, to all sorts of things like the. The. How do you, in essence, help people understand the value in a thing that they can't see, feel, touch, or can even imagine was really my happy space. And what I realized is throughout all of the things that the thing that I had the most fun and the most curiosity around, learning how to make it easy for people to buy it, was actually the most important asset in anybody's company, which is people's time. It's actually probably one of the most expensive investments for any CEO. It's the thing that can transform a company both in great and not so great ways. And it's the thing you continue to invest in. And I was like, wow. When I look at the oeuvre of how do we think about time? I am not a fan of how it is bought today and how we think about it as a potential asset within company. And yeah, I'm talking about time like it's a product because we. We pay for it and we try to get value out of it and. And all of those things. So I have been obsessing about the idea of how do we buy time from each other for years. And I think the last couple of years within pandemic, what is really new and interesting in that space is that that purchase process has shifted. It was already starting to shift, but it has completely started to shift to be a bidirectional decision. Because if somebody, if your employees are in essence, buying an opportunity for you, if you are a CEO and you are buying their future value. You know, I'm known a lot for saying, when I speak in front of, well, all sorts of different audiences, I say that every decision made about you and your opportunities is made in a room that you're not in. And I immediately come back and I go, the thing that they are buying is potential. If you're sitting in the CEO seat, your employees are buying a potential future with you. And for the employees, you are buying an opportunity from your employer. And when that purchase process, for lack of a better term, when you're both buying and you're happy with the product of the future, really magic things can happen. And when they're not, often people are bored, stuck, and scared. People are frustrated. It will go sideways. And, you know, it baffles me that the buying process that we have for literally the coolest product on the Planet is atrocious. And so like, how do we even start this conversation? Which is why I wrote the book.
Yeah. So I think you hit on something really good there in the beginning. And the, the nature of the workforce force is changing so much right now, right? With people, so many people across some entire companies and some just certain jobs are working increasingly remotely and flexible, reduced and ambiguous hours. And I remembered vividly also as you talked about early web work, I used to have a web development company and, and I remember a friend of mine complaining about the hourly rate and he wanted me to bid on their job and I declined on the first thing because I thought his timelines and his expectations were unrealistic. I did, I just didn't say that. I just said, oh, I, I'm not sure I can help you or whatever. And he was like, oh, they want to charge us 150 an hour and you know, they're going to put this whole team on the thing. And I'm like, I wouldn't don't want to work for 150 an hour. And you know, like that kind of thing. It didn't seem like a good idea to me and I thought there. Anyway, so then they went through it. It didn't go well. And then he approached me again and I said, well, why don't we talk instead about the outcomes that you want and you know, like, what's the project you're trying to accomplish and let's rethink the timeline a little bit. And, and in reality, instead of putting a whole team on it, I put two guys on it and not like 10 people that they wanted to see to give them more peace of mind and that kind of thing. And in reality we were, I don't probably make it 750 an hour on the work, right. And the, and the, my team was getting paid 150 an hour direct for their time and then the company overhead and the project and the, all that other, you know, ate up the profits. But that would have shocked him, right? But in reality, do I care? Like, we get on calls all the time and zoom meetings and in persons and drinks after work and, and we say, oh, I'm really busy and it's like a badge of honor that you're busy and it's crap, right? Like, why do you want to be burned down and filled up? Like do really great work and then go take a walk, right. Like go have a great lunch where you produce fertile ideas that then you work with. You know, I think there's too much of that. So, like, buying potential and realizing potential seems a lot more important to me than just being busy.
Well, so, yes, and there's also the, like, you come back to the clarity of what is it you're buying. Right. So I'm going to give you a really weird example here, just because you're making me go back in time a tiny bit. So when I was young and dumb and had no stickers and badges and all of this sort of stuff, and I just needed money to make rent, I did pretty much whatever I could do because the job market was a very different place right then. And I had two different jobs. One was working for a real estate agent who, when their tenants would move out and lose their deposit, I'd go in with my little team of people and we would clean apartments. Not my favorite job ever.
And.
And it was gross, but I got paid pretty well to do it. And I will tell you now as an adult, I never lost. Never lost a deposit on an apartment because I'd be like, I know what to look for. And I was a nanny because, you know, I have a slightly British accent thing, and I could charge a premium for nanny services because I sounded like Mary Poppins and I acted like Mary Poppins. Right?
You need a big bag.
And I think about, like, part of my job as the nanny as well at the time was to kind of tidy up and clean the house. And the value proposition, the transaction of time to money that I was buying and selling with the real estate agent versus the mom I was working for was very different. It was very different. And where I committed my time was very different because really, the mom was hiring me to create an experience for her kids and maybe do a bit of cleaning on the side. And so her narrative around the table of potential for me was, my kids are basically going to have a total and utter blast when I am not in the house because that's what I want for them versus the real estate agent was like, when I walk around with my white glove, this place better be freaking spotless, right? And like, that's such a. And I say this for the example of what that means in the world today is being really clear as an employer about what is, like, what is your request for proposal for even somebody who is cleaning your office as an example? And like, what is the. What is the transaction? And I think about, oh, I'm just going to use Amazon as a really great example. And I am talking their warehouse workers as opposed to the corporate workers, which is a different, very different transaction. And like it or not, I'm not sure. I'm a huge fan. But like it or not, Amazon's really clear with their employees about what is the transaction of time. Really clear. And if you fail on the transaction of time, they will let you go, but you can reapply. Like, everybody talks about the retention rates at Amazon, especially in the warehouses, and how they turn people over. They don't care. They do not care. They're like, are you performing to spec? And we will actually pay you a decent wage. Now if I was advising somebody who was going to go do that for a job, I'd be like, absolutely do that. It is, if it is meeting your needs because you need to pay rent, whatever your, your particular transaction is. But do understand that this is a bridge solution while they create technology to replace you as a human being. So you better have something else up your sleeve, et cetera, et cetera. But I, you know, when I think about the employer employee relationship, what I find fascinating, especially about the kind of folks who listen to your show, is the why do they start a company is so incredibly entrepreneurial. And they are exploding with ambition and drive and curiosity about their businesses in a way that is kind of a remarkable thing. I think it's very cool to watch. And that intrinsic motivation of why they show up to come to work every day is spectacularly different from the person who's maybe putting stuff in boxes and shipping it. And it's not that either one is bad and the other one is good. It's actually just being really clear about the transaction and saying to somebody like, I'm, you know, are you buying that product? And, you know, when I look at, and this is, you know, I think it's more of a problem in kind of the, the white collar corporate world. I think the promise of potential that corporations have been giving to employees is beginning to backfire because they've been all like, oh, we're a family and we're going to grow and change. We're going to do all the things. And then they turn around and they go, oh, no, actually we can't give you five promotions a year or any of those sorts of things. Or worse. You know, you and I both live Silicon Valley adjacent. They go, super sorry, we're going to lay you off. I really think, like, as a, as a human being, whether you are the employee role or the leadership role, we live in a world now where you need to be the CEO and founder of you Incorporated and your time and how you think about it and you need to really understand what is your unique value proposition, how do you want to price yourself and what is your promise of potential? Because that's the thing that everybody is buying. And if you are a buyer of that product, it's having that conversation, too.
Well, let's talk about. So potential is in the title, and then in the book, you talk about the future. You. Right. And Cinderella is. Is your story. And Cinderella goes from being one thing to something else, Right. And has that potential there the whole time. And there's a transformation. But I feel like. So talk a little bit about potential in the future. You.
Why does that all connect to employees and all of this sort of thing? Well, let me ask you this before I jump into that. You've read some of the book before you read the book, and without knowing me and all of my nonsense, what was your opinion of Cinderella? What did you like? If I was going to ask you to tell her tale of potential, what was it?
Ask a question. Good.
If I was. So if you were going to describe why Cinderella was awesome, somebody else, before you read what I said, sent you, what would you have said?
Well, I think Cinderella is like the same phenomenon that we see in, like, the superstar shows, you know, with Simon Cowell and that kind of thing. They take this person who looks a little bit homely and comes from a modest background, and then they're given a moment to shine, and then, boom, we're like, oh, my God, that's a voice, right? Like, that's a person who can perform. And I. And I think that we all want to be that undiscovered thing that suddenly shows up and rocks the world, right? And we want to be. And we want to surround ourselves. We want to hire people like that who didn't know their own potential. And then working with us, they blew us away. You know.
I caution you to not just have those people in your company. Sometimes you need that. Sometimes you need the mouse. You need the mice and the lizards and the birds and all of that sort of stuff, too. I love. I love asking that question, because I'm always like, oh, my God, what are they gonna say? Yeah. So when I asked that question generally about Cinderella's character and why I picked her, because, you know, as I talk about this concept of, like, the mountain I'm trying to climb is how do we create a better workplace for everybody by actually buying time better? And as I started to explore that, I was like, well, hang on a second. People don't even know what they're buying and what they're buying is this tale of potential is this concept of who you going to be in the future. Like, you and I are sitting here. Tell me if I'm wrong here. I don't think I am. But you and I are sitting here because when Laurie said, oh, Joanne has a book coming out and you should do a thing, you were like, absolutely. Joanna will be a hoot. It'll be an interesting conversation. Like, you had a whole story in your head about who we were going to be together that you were pretty sure. There's always a bit of a risk there. You're pretty sure was going to be an interesting conversation, right, because of your experience with me and all of this sort of stuff and the fact that you hear secondhand, like, worry's been telling my tale of potential to you for ages. Um, like, that's the thing. This tale of potential is what we've been buying from everybody. And, you know, as I was thinking about, well, how do I explain this concept to people? Everybody was like, oh, you should use examples of people you've worked with or teams that you've transformed and all of this sort of stuff. And what I saw over and over again is people will get really stuck in the. Well, the story's about them. It's not about me. Because this is a very personal conversation. Like, you should see the faces of people when I sit here and I go, I'm gonna teach you how to sell your time. And they just gonna go, oh, my God, this feels really gross and icky and ah. And they get super panicky. It's a very interesting conversation. I was like, how do I create an example that is so universal that people can get away from the. It's not about me. And there are, I think it's 437 different versions of the Cinderella story, but it's also a super universal story. And what I. When I first started studying her, for lack of a better term, and the story I realized too, like my story of Cinderella, before I started getting obsessed about her, was the story of. She's kind of this pathetic character that needs res. Like, needs a fairy godmother to make her look decent and needs rescuing by a prince. It was a pretty awful. I mean, it was also. When I was a little girl, my guess, I don't know. It was always a bit of a rule breaker, but I had a pretty terrible story. And as I have unpacked, not only her story, but the princess story and the stepmother story and all of the characters in there, what I have realized at the End of the day is Cinderella didn't need a Simon Cowell American Idol moment. She was always incredibly consistent about who she was, what she had to offer, and was incredibly agentic when the moments happened. So when she walked onto, I'm going to use your analogy, her American Idol stage, she fully prepared for the opportunity. I sit here and like, an example I talk about, because a lot of people call me like, a modern fairy godmother because I love the transformation process. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was walking down the street having a bad day because things had not gone well for me, which is kind of pre the moment Cinderella meets the fairy godmother and some crazy lady popped out of the bushes and said, sweetie, let me just do all of this magic and shit, and you are going to go to the ball, and that's going to be amazing. I'd be like, who are you, crazy lady? Not even. There would be a whole, like, backup. I wouldn't lean into the situation. I wouldn't be all like, oh, hi, crazy lady. You look interesting. What are you doing? Oh, you've just changed a pumpkin into a coach. I am gonna get inside said pumpkin. I'd be all like, hold up a second. You just magicked or did something that I don't understand, which was, it used to be a pumpkin and now it's a coach. Now, granted, Cinderella lived in fairy tale land as well as to real world land, so maybe magic assists, and that's no big deal. But I'd still be like, hey, when is it not going to be a coach anymore? When is it going to be a pumpkin? Cinderella is like, nope, you're going to help me hit my goals, help me meet my ambitions, help me get there. Yes, please. I would absolutely love your help. And she's gracious and kind and all of those things along with it. And like, example after example after example throughout the book, which is why there's all of them that I come back and I go, wow, she's actually. She shows amazing leadership skills. You think about the kind of employee you want. She is able to get this kind of secondary characters to help her out in her original job by paying them a cheese. Basically, she leads without needing a title. She's really great with irrational customers. Hi, the stepsisters. And, oh, my God, is she good with a completely insane and unfocused boss. Hi, the stepmother, Right? And this is all before the fairy godmother shows up and goes, we're going to make you look fabulous for this party that you want to go to. And I just sit here and I say, she's so consistent around my. The adventure I am on and the potential I am going to deliver is, yeah, I'm really good at getting shit done, but I will do it with a fantastic attitude and I will bring people along along the way. And I just sit here and I go, I have hired hundreds of people over my career. I'd hire that any day of the week. I'd actually put her into a leadership position. And so as an example of the before and after story, I just say it's such a different way to look at not only how we tell a tale of potential about everybody we meet almost instantly, but that if you actually start to listen to it in a different way, you can. You can see potential in others in a way that you might not have seen before. And, you know, one of the things I'm also known for saying a ton of is potential is infinitely easier to recognize when it looks and sounds like you. And looks and sounds like you covers experience. It's really easy for me to talk to people in the tech space because I hung around them for decades. It's really easy for me to talk to superpowered on because I hang out with a lot of them. It's really easy for me to talk to. I'm trying to think of another example. I don't know all sorts of things. And it's. It's because that's what my experiences are. And I sit here and I say, like, because we have a story in our head about people. I'm like, let's let go of that a little bit and actually look at what. What are we buying and are we applying our own tales of potential against it? It.
Let me, let me underscore that, that you're speaking to about seeing potential in others. Right. And I think that there's two things that happen to us. One, well, there's a common thing that happens to us. And then how we react to them as leaders and others in an organization are really two distinct different ways. So somebody shows up to us with a problem, a challenge, they're making a lot of noise, that kind of thing. One way to respond to it is this is a weakling person who needs direction. Right. And I, I've done that. I think we've all done that at one, at some point or another. That is not speaking to a person of potential, a person who's capable of more of greatness. And that person will typically disappoint us when we Relate to them as, this is a person that needs my help. Right. And this person's a spaz and I need him keep the. To keep it together. Because I've got to have this project turn out and not blow up in my face and then I can replace them later. Right. That is one common way that we've probably all done. The other way is, okay, I hear you. You can deal with this. What do you think is needed? Where you become a coach or a kind of a leader who inspires them to step up to another level of potential, another level of performance. And you see them as maybe not showing up that way right now, but possible to get there. They have it in them. And you call it forth. You're like, okay, come on, you got this. I know you can do this. How can I support you? But it's not, I'm going to tell you what to do or whatever. It's like, you got this. What do you think are your next steps? And that's a very different way as a boss to relate to. That's not just the woman scrub, scrubbing the floors. That's a future princess. Those are really different times. Mostly we walk around feeling related to by evil stepsisters and not having a fairy godmother tell us we're going to.
Be a princess the way you are.
A few things in your life. And I know when I'm at my best coach, it's when I speak to my CEOs as. As being more than they currently are.
Yeah.
Showing up as well.
And, and I want to, I want to pull this thread a tiny bit. Like, part of why I think. And like the, the. The book is just. Is the step one in the. By the way, there's this tale of potential thing that people that you have and actually you have a fantastic amount of agency on whether you like. And I think CEOs kind of intrinsically understand this because they understand people come to work with them as much as they come to work for them company. I think, you know, when I talk about this in the rest of the working world, they're all like, wait, what? I thought my resume was why I was important. I thought my title was why I was important. I'm like, no. But, you know, when I talk about this, like, part of why we struggle so much with the concept of potential too, is that we have no language. Like, if I asked you, or actually if I ask any executive out there why they're really good at their job, they will inevitably say, I'm super strategic. I am A great communicator. I'm really creative, I'm great at connecting the dots and I'm really great at developing people. And I go boring, boring, boring, boring, boring. Because by the way, if you are a leader in a company, you better be good at all of those things. And they're not different. Plus, and how absolutely everybody defines what is the potential of a strategic thinker when we all have different definitions. And I'm going to come back to your relationship of employee to employer employee relationship. Like I think, and you think about, like, how do you buy time? I, when I see leaders, I see really what I call three different types of potential. And it's not, you could be a leader, but this is how you transact as a leader. And I call them patrons, investors, coaches. Let me just give you the framework because this is a language so you can say, I am a great leader. I'm a great coach type leader. I'm a great patron type leader and a great investor type leader. So coach type leaders are leaders who absolutely love locking arms with their person, being super side by side with them. They generally have expertise in whatever the future state should look like. And they're like, this is how we're going to do this together. For people who want, need that kind of guidance, they're freaking amazing. For people who are like, no, no, no, no, I want to go figure this out for myself. It feels like micromanaging, right? Because that choice of do I want to coach leader or not is, is there. Then there's what I call a patron leader and patron leaders. And only because I have a funny feeling this is who you are. Patron leaders are people who look out at people and go, oh my God, you could not. You, not only are you great at this, but you could also do this and this and this and this and this. And you see opportunity often where other people don't. And so you're often like, I was working with a lot of patron leaders, often kind of given opportunities to do things. It is great for somebody who is confident in who they are and what they're all about, having a patron leader is terrifying for somebody who's not. And I'd also say with patron leaders, what happens with them is if you are somebody who is confident about being thrown in the deep end, you're all like, bring it on. Because patron leaders will throw you in the deep end and then let you figure it out. If you're not and you don't kind of step up to the plate and go, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to rise to their patronage, so to speak. The patron leader will often go, well, they don't, they didn't take the opportunity and so clearly they don't want it. So I'm not going to do it again. And so, you know, your patron leader can opt out of you really quickly then with investors, which is a little bit different. Investors, basically, like, I hired you because you are really good at what you do and I trust that you will do it. And I have like 50,000 other things to do over here and I'm here for you if you need me, but you better go, like, go figure out your own thing. They really leave you alone. Which again, for somebody who's like, I can see where I need to go, I know what I need to be able to do, I have a path forward and like, get out of my way. Investor leaders are amazing because they get out of their way. If you're the kind of employee who's like, I like to get regular feedback, I like to have lots of one on ones, etc. Like an investor, they will absolutely spin out of control because they're like, my boss doesn't like me because they're not talking to you. And I use this example of coaches, patrons and investors because. And this conversation about potential because I have yet to hear anybody talk about why a leader opts into you and why you opt into a leader. And that if you're at us, like, we all know that if you're out of sync in those, in that language, somebody could be like, somebody's either awesome because they're like, I love who you are and I love doing this. Or they can be bored, scared or stuck. And we all know that if you have somebody on your team who's bored, scared or stuck, there's not so good. And so that language of potential and getting clarity around it and what is the tailor potential you're telling is so critically important. And it's not always one size fit all. It's different for every single person. So I come in and I go, look, I know as an example, like I actually, and I say buy time in our hiring process. One of the questions I ask people is we go through the different leadership types and I'm like, who do you thrive with? Because I'll tell you, if somebody's coming to work at the amplify lab looking for a coach leader. Like I coach people all the time, but. But I am so much depending on the person. I'm either a patron or an investor leader. I'm rarely a coach leader. I'm actually terrible as a coach leader because I move too fast often for them. Now what I do is I find who is the coach leader in my organization and I'm like, look, can you be their coach if they don't? But we run a pretty tight operation, so to have many people. But in other, like I think about, you know, I had what, 400 people who reported into me at Pandora, my right hand person. So, so, so good as a coach leader. Like, he was fantastic. And so while I was out creating chaos, he was making it comfortable. And then in opposite ways where he was creating chaos, I was making comfortable. And it's, it's that language and understanding what are you choosing that actually makes things work. And I, you know, I think about the people who I've met, that is who are in both of our orbits. So like Cameron Herald or Randy Cohen or Peter. Laughter is an example. And I'm actually going to use Peter and Randall as a really good example. So Peter and Randy Cohen could not be more different if they tried. Literally could not be more. And so I adore them both and I endure them both for very different reasons. I'm still me in my interactions with them, but the adventures I go on with Randy and the adventures I go on and I say adventures, it's like collaborative activities are spectacularly different. And I, I adore them both for who they are and what they're all about. And I know that shenanigans with either of them, work, collaboration, whatever, it's going to be a really fascinating and interesting engagement. And I buy them for who they are and what they're all about and they buy me for who I am and what I'm all about. And when, when we come together separately, different kind of magic happens and it's amazing. I'm not sure the two of them, well, who knows?
Well, we've had Randy have that language.
Of I'm like, I want you for who you are and what you're all about. Like you can really do cool things.
And it's bi direction character. Right. Randy Cohen's a past guest of the show. He came on to talk about swagger and Randy. You can go back and find our episode with Randy Cohen. And of course we've had Cameron Herald on two or three times to talk about meetings and vivid vision and his latest book, around Second in Command. Um, so we've covered a few of the. I don't know if I've had Peter on.
You should have Peter on.
Peter's Peter and Randy. Well, all of them are profoundly different people and you know, they, they have some unique common things. I mean both, all of them are deeply feeling human beings and that kind of thing, but they lead from different places. And, and I think we see that all the time. Like you, you want to know your strengths as a leader and your style of leadership and where you gravitate to and the kinds of people you need in your sphere that are a complement to you. Right. Like I need people around me who are willing to consistently execute and I need people around me who will manage relationships that I will not tend to in the same way. Right. And one of my strengths is being really commanding. But I also know there's not. That's a very, should be used very sparely. Right. Like when somebody first comes on, they need explicit direction and then you gotta get out of their way. And then when somebody is in, their hair's on fire, there's a crisis. People also need that commanding leader. But the rest of the time you should check that kind of like that self awareness of this is who I am and this is what I'm good at. And I think there's something there. Like you talk not the resume, but the future you and, but the future you is built on and you're drawing on those threads. It's just they're not all fully realized yet. Right. Like there's a pattern.
So let's talk about, you know, as the audience have seen, both Cameron and Randy, like future Cameron and future Randy are really clear, really clear. I don't think the, like one of the questions I ask people a lot when they're like wait, wait a second, like how do I talk about the future me? I go, well, what is it you want to be wanted for? For? It's not known for. It's a very different question. But like why would somebody go I want to show up to your thing, I want to invite you to talk to. It's like why would somebody. What is it you want to be invited to do? Which actually is a fantastically generous act because not only do you have to be confident in what is it you bring to the table. And so Randy as an example brings his, his swagger conversation. And so. Oh, I'm trying to think of an example. I, I think his swagger stuff could actually plug in all sorts of interesting places. But there are going to be some people who are going to be like peace out. Absolutely not. No thank you. And that's okay because optimized for that. And then I sit here and say, so Cameron in a very different way. And I sit here and I say like if, let's pretend for a second I'm just gonna happen because they both got their own thing. But like if somebody wanted to do a project where you brought Cameron and Randy together to do something together, that's an interesting question. God, I would show up at that conference. That would be a really, I'd be all like, oh, I feel a little.
You want to go to a conference?
It wouldn't be a, it would be a generous conversation because it's a one plus one equals 50 instead of one plus one equals two sort of scenario. And so when I talk about this and they're such interesting examples because they're already there in this concept of like they're so confident what they have to offer that they can be, they're just generous with who it is. You know, often people think that this whole power conversation and the whole up and to the right is about like how big is everything and it's actually how, how much more generous you are. But I sit here and I say like, I think it's amazing to watch the Randy's and the Peters and the Camerons of the world be that. And I just sit here and I go, ah, it should be that for the people on your team too because and again, I'm going to come back to, you know, cleaning lady. Joanna. It was a gross job. It was a gross job. But I was really proud of the work that I did. I earned my pennies. I love the fact that I got to be Mary Poppins for a piece of my life.
Hey, before, I want to come to one more thing before we run out of time. Before we do that, let me just remind our listeners We've done over 450 show shows. We've got lots and lots of guests on all kinds of things to do. And if you want to get in touch with us either to find a coach in your area or to give us some feedback or anything like that. Info scalingcoach.com is the email address for us. Info scalingcoach.com you'll find our website scalingcoach.com so we've got live programs and coaching and all kinds of things like that. We can connect you with people. So that's all that I want to give big shout and thanks to my friend and mentor Vern Harnish, author and creator of Scaling up and the Rockefeller Habits that can be for it and in the background helping our show get ready before and after and during is Wanda Mitchell, our show producer. And to the folks at Potfly Productions who get our audio cleaned up in our show notes and everything pushed out every week. So all that to them for that. And then. So I'd love to finish and. And just talk about the glass slipper. What is that? Why is that important? Huh? I just think it's a fun thing to.
It is. It's a funny. So here's the thing. This is why I talk about, like, oh, my God, how we buy the coolest product on the planet is insane. Like, a can of beans does a better job of showing what is the potential inside than a resume, because it at least has a serving size on it. And the fact that the buying process, the only thing we use throughout the entire buying process, I think it's super helpful. Top of funnel. It becomes useless the minute a conversation starts. Is a ribbon. It absolutely makes my head hurt. And so I sit here and I say, like, where is that in the. In the Cinderella story? Everybody often talks about this glass slipper on the stairs and how it just fell off when she ran away and she left it behind. And I'm like, nonsense. Was absolutely a strategic move. First, let's talk about the tale of potential of Cinderella. What she showed there was that she can make really fast, very strategic decisions in a moment. She had seconds to make a decision. And first of all, she was like, I have a deadline to meet, and it'll be better for me to be at least 98% perfect and hit that deadline than not miss the deadline. Because, good God, what would have happened if she'd grabbed the shoe and run? And she understood that the glass slipper had a job to do. So let's talk about the job that the glass slipper had. So let's. Cinderella's buggered off and done her thing. The prince comes running down the stairs and is all like, oh, my God, where did the girl go? And he finds the glass slipper. Let's talk about that moment. He had a couple of hundred other fantastic people back in the ballroom who'd have been only too happy to go, peace out. That girl has gone. I now have an opportunity. Who would have been like, I want to be with you. But he didn't. He had the glass slipper to remind him that he'd actually found the one. And so he hung onto that. He was like, I'm not going to go dance with the other girls. I'm going to be all like, I found the one. Hooray. I'm going to Close this deal. So that's the first job. The next day when the prince woke up, he had to get all the resources of the palace to go find Cinderella. But before he did that, he had to go to his decision makers, AKA mom and dad, and say, mom and Dad, I think I found one. Because apparently teeny tiny feet are a thing in Cinderella land. And so he showed up and was like, hey, mom and dad, she's got teeny tiny feet. And he told a tale of potential to his parents to say, you know, you said I needed to find a. A COO for future fairy tale, you know, King Kingdom company And I think I found the one. And this is her business card and I'm going to go find her. So aren't you super excited for me? Which clearly they were. Because as much as we'd like to think that he was a rebel, I don't think he was that much of a rebel. And then he rallied all the troops with literally the Glass Slipper being the business card to help him find Cinderella at the end of the day. Now, did it have her address at, you know, Tremaine Mansion, et cetera, et cetera? No. So I think there's opportunities to improve. But I literally sit here and say, like, what is the QR code? Yeah, exactly. Perfect example. But like this, the Glass Slipper was the very first example of corporate swag, because that's what it does. And I sit here and I go, like, that's how you can have a conversation about the tail of potential. So if you want more slightly ridiculous.
Well, you know, one of our, one of our old finance persons for the jewelry company years ago said, listen, anytime you sit down with investors, bankers, partners, whatever, just open first with the jewelry. Don't talk about California C Corp, Blau years, whatever, just bring out the jewelry and get them playing and touching with it and experiencing it. And I think that's true again and again. Like, what is it that you can open with and create memorable, like, tactile kinds of things? And then is there something you can leave behind? You talk about corporate swag, but is there a token or a symbol or an image or, or something that you can do that that is memorable and that. That people can go find you later after they've decided what they're going to do?
Yeah. If you want the answer of literally how to do that, there's the professional equivalent of the Glass slipper example in there. Yeah.
Tales of Potential.com is the book. You can go find it in the website right there with all the resources and things like that. We're at our time. Thank you, Joanna, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you, listeners, viewers, for joining us once again giving us your time. It was helpful for you. Share it with somebody else. Pass it along, you know, liking and subscribing and all that's good for us. Good for you. So do that, too. We'll talk to you again next time. Keep scaling up.
