Leadership: Turning Adversity into Empowerment with Dima Ghawi

We're joined now by Dima Gawi Gawi like Maui. Dima is a TEDx speaker and author, an expert in talent development and comes from a Middle Eastern background. And her personal story and journey of adversity then dovetails with the work that she does with the companies they work with. And she'll tell us all about that. So thanks for joining us on the show today, Dima.

Well, thank you, Bill. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah. So start off, you escaped confinement, you did all this. Tell us about your background, your family, your grandmother. Like, tell us your story.

Yeah, sure. I was born in Turkey and raised in Jordan in the Middle East. And most story that had a major impact in my life was when I was five years old, I was in my grandmother's home. We were playing in her kitchen and she got a glass vase and she looked at me, she was so serious that day and she said, do you see this perfect glass vase? A girl is just like it. If it gets cracked for any reason, you can never fix it, you can never glue it back. And that's the one we throw in the trash because no one would want it. So I was five years old. I didn't understand what all of that meant. But what she was trying to do early on in my life and is to plant the seed of the fear related to making mistakes that I have to be perfect, I have to follow, I have to obey, I have to always be worried about how I am being perceived by others and how I am being judged by others. So that's where the story started. And throughout my early life I felt that.

Wait, pause. Just want that to sink in for, for people before you rush on from that. A five year old girl being told that if she screws up in any way, she'll be discarded. Yeah, that's heartbreaking to do to any child. But you know, it's, it happens far more often to young women and more in some parts of the world than others. But all over the world, that's, that's like I have a daughter. I can't imagine. To think that you can't overcome a mistake, that you can be ruined in some way and then worthless.

Oh yeah, yeah.

So what'd you do with that?

And I want to add to what you are, life like this. Right. Your program early on, this is how life is supposed to be.

Yeah.

So I followed, I obeyed, I did everything as was expected. I was to my family and my community, the perfect glass vase. And when I was 19, I got married, I got introduced Through a traditional marriage to a distant cousin. He's a ninth cousin, so not a close one. And we got married a year later and we moved to San Diego. So when, when this marriage happened, the only, the only condition I had was that I wanted to work on my education. I wanted to be the first educated woman in my family. So my grandmother was not even allowed to go to kindergarten. She had to stay home and cook and clean. My mom was not allowed to go to college. And my dream that I wanted to be the first educated woman. So both families agreed, the husband agreed, and then we moved to San Diego. And initially I was absolutely excited. I loved it. I loved being part of this amazing country.

You went from Amman to San Diego?

Yes, yes. Can you imagine like me landing? And I always laugh, big culture shift.

Yep.

Yeah. Just driving like in Jordan, where, where I grew up, most of the roads are two way. So like one way going, one going this way, the other coming this way. And then I found myself on this California freeways. Can you imagine the six lanes both ways? And it's, it's now I laugh about it. It was so tough for me to be on the far right side, driving below speed limit, driving everybody around me crazy. So there's a lot of culture shock that came with it.

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So you went, but then it didn't turn out to be so rosy.

No. And the story that I share about that one time we were in our kitchen and I was always curious why he chose me. Because he got to pick me. And to me that was like a big honor because he was one of the most eligible bachelors in our community. He's a jeweler, very wealthy, educated, got to travel the world. And then he found where his mom got to pick me and to be, to be the wife. So I was always waiting to hear, you know, love language about why he chose me. And maybe because of like my beautiful eyes or something, he fell in love with me at first sight. So I asked him, I said, why me? Why did you choose me? And I was shocked by the answer. The answer was very quick. And it was because you're like doe that he could a dough, you know, like the dough. Because he could shape me the way he wanted. So that's what he was looking for. Somebody young, no experience, not even educated at that time. And somebody to shape so I can see the world the way he does. I can learn from him to, to and follow and obey. So that's how the journey started of me. Every time I wanted to grow and Learn and discover my identity. I was being pushed down and made smaller and smaller. So that's when I think about the vase and the dough and continuing to expect, to be expected to stay small, but the aspiration to grow and to discover my identity, that meant that maybe that would cause a crack and I would not be good enough and there would be consequences. So it was like a major struggle early on in my life, in addition to the culture shock and being away from everybody, everybody that I knew and I was comfortable with.

Yeah. So there you're on a new place, and you're being told that you're pliable, malleable, that you are somebody who can be shaped to suit the whims of the other person, not a partner in the true sense of that whole thing. So obviously that declined and you had to escape. Talk about that journey and what you did with that and how you got out and. Because you're clearly not there now.

No, I'm not. Not in San Diego and not in that marriage. So what happened was, the most blessing thing that happened was that I got into depression. So now when we think about depression, we always think this is such a bad thing. But we go into depression because our body, our spirit, is telling us that we need to take action bigger than who we are, an action bigger than what we have been programmed. So I got in this deep depression. And many days I would be just laying down all day long, just staring at the ceiling because I had no energy to move. Thank goodness. When I got to that place, I already completed my education. So I became the first educated woman with bachelor's degree in my entire family. And I did get a job at that time, it was paying $30,000 in San Diego. So, like, barely covering anything, but at least I got some. Some money to be able to be independent if I needed to. So this depression just kept getting worse and worse. And every time I thought about the future, I. I would see total darkness. And it was a message to me that I was not in the right place. But if I left, that meant that there would be consequences and there would be. My family would face shame from the community. It's different leaving a marriage in the US than leaving a marriage now, 23 years ago in Jordan. So very different. So I called my mom and she said, don't you dare think about it. This is not going to be okay. You just. You're not better than any other woman. Deal with it. And she even said. She said, what you need to do is get pregnant and have children. So that should get you closer. Isn't that hilarious? Like having children in such abusive marriage. So simple things I could not do. I could not leave our home without permission. I was not allowed to talk to my mom more than 15 minutes a week, and it had to be on a Saturday and he had to be next to me and I was not allowed to have friends. So I was really isolated from everybody.

Really. Like, picture that, right? I don't know what all your relationships look like, but like, that amount of control is really disturbing. I'm not allowed to leave. I can only talk at a certain time and I have to be monitored on that. Wow, that's. That's heavy duty in our world.

But as a young woman who I didn't know any better, it wasn't initially too significant. That was my life. That's what I. I was.

These are the rules. Uhhuh.

Yeah. Until I got into depression.

And before you got married, were you taught that that's what mar. Like, what did you think marriage would be like? Your marriage, Any marriage. Did you have a sense of what the rules were?

Oh, absolutely. It's the traditional concept of marriage in terms of the roles, the gender roles that I'm going to get married. My role is going to be take care of my family, take care of the house, cook, clean. And there's nothing wrong with that if that's what the individual wants. So if the person does what they want and that's what brings them joy, absolutely great. But now when I think about my personality, my. I am about growth and you know, like becoming bigger. Bigger with. As a doe and self discovery and imagine continuing to be in a cookie cutter while I'm trying to advance. That just did not work. And while, while I would go to work, the. I used to work for Merrill lynch and I would. I would feel that I am happy and I am appreciated. But then I would go to work and I would get. I mean, to home and I would feel a whole different feeling. And it wasn't good. So it just showed me that I just did not fit in. So one day I just packed and I left. I got my stuff and I escaped. And I knew there would be consequences. I knew that my family, they're not going to be happy about it. But I had no choice because it's either I would stay and keep losing myself, or I would leave and just give myself a chance for a better life.

Yeah. Where did you go?

So I was still in San Diego. I rented an apartment. This apartment was $850 a month. So you can imagine. It took most of my salary. One bedroom apartment. I couldn't afford to buy any furniture. My. My manager gave me a small little tv. It's like the smallest you can ever imagine. And a love seat that her dog used to love to sit on it, but the dog passed away. So this love seat had all kinds of hair, but I couldn't afford anything else, so I lived with that. It was in a area that was not safe, but again, that's all I was able to afford. So I packed and I escaped. And I knew that there was. There's going to be consequences. I just did not realize how bad they're going to turn return. So my entire community in Jordan disowned me. I became like that bad person in the family and in my small community. Even though I'm Catholic, I was born and raised Catholic. In my small community, if a woman does anything that's not accepted by the father, by the uncle, by the brother, they kill her. And they call it honor killing. So they believe that they're bringing the honor back to the family by shedding her blood. So if I was in Jordan, first, I would not have left. Second, if I did, I would have been killed. So I have been dealing with death threats for my life for the last 23 years from my own father because he could not handle the idea that his daughter is divorced. I have not obviously been to Jordan for over 23 years. I don't talk to my dad. And it's really tough for somebody like me. I was 24 years old, dealing with depression, barely surviving financially, and having to deal with the death threat for my life every single day.

Yeah. Do you have any contact with any of your family today?

So I do with my mom and my sister because my brother, because I had to have them escape too. So the death threats extended, so I had to have them. So my mom is in San Diego and my sister moved too, which is great. So none of us talk to him. All of us are dealing with death threats. But it all started with me. It's all started by taking the action. And some people may hear the story and say, you see, you. You should not challenge the norm. Like, there's horrible consequences. But when I tell you where we are right now, it is like, beyond imagination. Like, I'm working with executives from all around the world, inspiring them to create healthy culture. I'm working with women from all around the world, helping them shatter limitations, but also men. My mom started a daycare business at her home, and she became the first Entrepreneur in our family. My sister graduated with her bachelor's and her master's, and she has an adorable little boy. His name is Alex. And now when we think about the new generation and how we're raising the new generation, we don't talk to Alex or anybody about a stupid vase. And you have to be perfect. It's about challenging the norm. It is questioning the horrible stories that we were taught that become part of our programming and. And realizing that we deserve better and to give ourselves a chance, but also help empower other people around us and give them a chance as well.

It's interesting. And so you still, like, there's a separation. How do you feel about your dad today?

So I had to go through major healing in order to even be able to tell this story, whether as a podcast or.

Thank you for sharing the story. This is not a normal story. Yeah. So thank you.

So initially, what I did related to your question. I had to block my anger. I had to block my fear. I call it as if I blocked it in an invisible black box. And I just needed to survive because I was in my mid-20s, making this $30,000 a year and responsible not just for me, but for my mom and my sister. So imagine three people in San Diego living with that. So I blocked it because I needed to survive. And I was working so hard, I became a workaholic. I was working day, night, weekends because I needed to escape from all these emotions that I was dealing with. But then a few years later, I got very, very sick. I got this wine flu, and it affected my liver, and I ended in the hospital. But then I was on a month and a half short term disability. And some people would hear that and say, this is so bad, but it was the best thing ever. I was being forced to pause my life and to stop escaping from my feelings and to face reality. At that time, it was 2009, and there was no Netflix. At least I didn't know of Netflix. And there's so many movies you can watch as you're just laying down all day long. But that made me realize I need to go through healing and I need to go through forgiveness. And that's when I started hiring people. Not counselors. Counselors didn't work for me. I needed somebody to help me dig so deep with inner child wounds and all the insecurities and all the anger. So I tried all kinds of interesting methods of healing. And then after 10 years, I was able to talk about the story. So imagine how much time it took. One session. It Was three hours, three full hours just for me to be able to look at my dad's picture. So now I look about where we, where I am right now, 23 years later. I forgave him. I forgave my ex husband. I just, I. As long as they're far away, they leave me alone. I don't want that energy to influence all the wonderful things I'm working on now.

Yeah, interesting. I love that you forgive them. Not because what they did isn't reprehensible, but because the weight is something you carry. Right. Like forgiveness, it does whatever it does for the other person, but it really frees up the person carrying the hatred, carrying the anger. It's liberating for those of us forgiving.

Right. Like, yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying it's easy. So for our listeners, it's not like you wake overnight and you forgive somebody. And it does, it does take time, it does take work. And it had to start by forgiving myself, which I never thought about that because many times we blame ourselves with what's happening and the reaction of others. So I had to forgive myself. And when I forgave myself, I was able to forgive, forgive other people around me. It's a work in progress. Like I'm not, I'm not healed yet. I still have sessions and work and dig deeper and. But because I do that, I'm able to relate to other people and their pain and their insecurities because I see it in them. The same thing I feel in me.

Yeah. You know, the other thing I hear or I imagine is like, it seems terrible, but I also have some like, pity. These are people. When I think about your father, your ex husband, trapped in a culture, in an ideology, in a mindset that has them having to control other people. And that strikes me as a particularly weak place. Like trapped themselves in a place and not free. Like so bound by stuff. They have to make death threats and things like that. That's like crazy. Crazy in a modern sense.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that's why I used to think that the vase is only about the women. But every gender has a vase. Men have vases too, because they have to act like, you know, they're the strong provider. They have to protect the name of the family and the honor of the family. But imagine how much my dad had to lose by protecting his own vase. Like now he doesn't even talk. He never even met or ever will ever talk to his grandchild. And none of us, we got to graduate, we got to have wonderful things in our life. But he was never and will never be part of any of these positive things in our lives.

Yeah, that's so tragic. It's so tragic. And to see that and then a separation of cultures and families and things like that. I think about that although your story is particular and unique and not common, there is a common thing that we all do. And each of us has events, moments that are traumatic, from which we make decisions, form identities, develop our skills and that kind of thing. And I remember one very minor one that I had when I was very young. And my dad was worried about something and I'd taken a test, and he was worried about my talking about the test and that kind of thing and using it to. Against or around other kids. And he said, listen, don't talk about this or people hate you. Right? And so I think he was just. He was trying to have me be more gracious and nice and with other kids, right? But I'm five years old and. And I heard you're different from other people. And if people see and know how you really are, they will hate you.

Yeah, right.

And I, for a long time, a little kid, thought that I was different. And if people really knew who I was, they would hate me, right? Now, that's not nearly as dramatic or severe as being constrained about leaving the house and who I could talk to and things like that. But it is like a personal prison of being afraid to let people see your joy, your strengths, that kind of thing. For fear that. That you're so different that they. They won't like you. You know, like. Like we all. Everybody's got a thing like that. Something happened when you were a kid. Some things, maybe a few things. And then. And sometimes you have a thing like that and then something else happens. It just confirms it. And then you're like that. And, oh, my God, people will. And I have to, like, do this. And we develop strengths, but we also then live a smaller and smaller life as a result of these experiences, right? We survive it, we develop skills, but, like, there's also a lack of freedom and full sel expression.

And the worst part is we pass it to the next generation, right? Because they're watching us. They're watching how. How we speak about ourselves, how we're behaving, the risks we're taking. And if we're. If we're not doing it in a positive way, they're gonna learn from that as well.

And I wanna. I wanna caution our listeners, viewers, you know, you may be like, oh, she Comes from a Middle Eastern background, and they're totally different. Every culture does things. I've heard horrifying stories, heartbreaking things that people grew up with in this country, in every region, in everything around the world. Right? Like, people controlling one another, people putting things on. Like, it's not unique to one culture, one religion, one sect, one, you know, whatever. You know, it's.

I'm so. I'm so glad you. You brought this one up, because I used to think it was just me because of my background and my family and my community until I started managing global teams for IBM and I started traveling and living around the world. And my team, they would tell me about their fears of making mistakes, their worries of being judged and their aspiration for perfection. And. And they would stop themselves. They would stop themselves from speaking up in meetings, and they would stop themselves from challenging the norm or speaking up if the manager is present. And it was all around the world. And the more I would talk to them about that, I realized, as if they're living with an invisible vase. They may not have been told the story itself, but they are living with an invisible one. So that's when I got to a place after 20 years of corporate experience, I decided I have a bigger purpose than that. So that's when I resigned and I started my business. And my business is all about helping individuals discover their potential, discover their vases, and work with them to shatter these vases. Yes, there's consequences, but if we prepare for that, if we build them up and help them start questioning the norm and have a vision about the life that they want to create for themselves. But. But also imagine how this applies within teams, too, because how many teams, like any team, let's think of sales team, they're limiting themselves because of this voice in their head that's telling them they're not good enough or they're worried of how they're being perceived. Why don't we work with them to shatter that? Why don't we work with them to help them understand their true potential, make mistakes and learn less? Work beyond that.

You know, in the leaders that I've coached around the world, I can think of some things immediately come to mind. I think of a guy from Malaysia who moved to the United States and who escaped his culture and his societal rules that just like, were like a prison to him and was estranged and terrified to speak to his father. In particular, I think about a woman from the east coast who. I don't remember exactly what her deal was, but she hadn't Spoken to her mom in 40 years and. And then she realized that there was a constraint on her career in the present. Like she. She laughed, but it wasn't healed, it wasn't transformed. Another guy from San Diego whose culture and family didn't fit his lifestyle and his choices, that kind of thing. I think of a young woman in remarkable entrepreneur in Utah who came from a very imprisoned, constrained thing about women and wives and things like that that was just pretty terrifying and controlling. Like. So think about that. Like all corners of the world and cultures and religions. No exclusive. Somebody else I knew from Japan who was fascinated with our way of life because theirs had been so like the rules a couple generations ago, but fascinatingly different, Constraining, limited, terrifying to them in some way because their reality was wound up in like you would say, like a vase of something.

Right.

And it's well for each of us to reflect on what's the constraint or the. We talk about business constraints all the time. But what's the personal constraint around your being as a human that has been in the way of you being fully alive, fully powerful, pursuing what you really care about. Right?

Yes. Even as you're sharing the stories. A story came to my mind about a woman that I used to coach in Baton Rouge and she's banking and she wanted to be the first woman leader in her bank. Everybody were men in leadership and also entrepreneurship, wanted to be the first. So one time she came to my office and she told me that they had this meeting, they brought everybody in leadership and they invited her to attend, which is great. And they talking about fraud. There's certain fraud that was happening at that time related to law firms. So everybody sharing ideas and brainstorming how they're going to address it as a bank. And she told me she had a great idea and her idea would not help just her bank, it would help the entire industry. So the entire hour she said, sat quiet. She did not. Did not share her idea. She did not. She did not. She just sat and she listened. So I told her why. Why didn't you speak up? Why didn't you tell them your the thoughts that you had? And she said, what? What if they think I'm not smart enough? What if they think that this idea is not good enough? What if they think that they should not have invited me to this meeting? She was intimidated being the only woman in a male dominated environment.

Right.

To protect her vase, to protect her image and the perfection she ended up being quiet. Do you think they will ever promote her into leadership? I Know I wouldn't. Why would I?

Not until she finds her voice. Not until she is able to speak up, to raise her hand. Yeah.

Yeah. So for anyone who thinks it's just other cultures, we experience it here in the US all the time, and regardless of the gender as well. People everywhere, it's part of being a human, and as if part of our purpose as individuals is to discover this vase, the thing that is limiting us in a personal life and our professional life, and to go through life's journey and to shatter it and to deal with the consequences and to grow as a person.

Yeah. I worked in a large company early in my career, and there are a couple of people I know who were really trying to rise up, but I had been promoted. I was the youngest at my level at the time in the company, and I was 27, and I ran an important part of the business. And so I knew these people, and I knew they desperately wanted. They were trying to rise up in their careers, but they hadn't risen as far. And they were older and more educated than I was. And one day, without realizing it, they were outside my office while I was inside the office. They didn't realize, and the door was open, and they were talking about, in an indirect fashion, in a resentful way. Like, how many degrees were they gonna have to get before somebody would give them a position of responsibility, like someone like me had. You know, these young people, they didn't name me exactly, but it was very, like, directly tied in, like, resentful of that. And I thought to myself, I'm like, nobody's ever going to tap you and say, hey, would you take a swing at the bat for a minute? You have to actually step up and say, hey, give it to me. Like, there's. And a big part of the reason that I had advanced is that I was cheeky enough to say, I have an idea, and to raise my hand and, you know, without being certain of it, being a little cocky, being arrogant, like a little bit of that and being. And there were times that I embarrassed myself, for sure.

Yeah. And that's how you learned. Yes.

Yeah. And you learned. And. And. And ultimately, a thing that I did, it was pretty stupid and got me fired, but screw. It's true. And I am embarrassed today when I think about, like, how foolish it was, like, how young and clumsy and. But. But, like, I did learn from it eventually. Right? Like, so. But there's something about finding a way to get out of your own way and to step up to something. Right. To set Aside your concerns, to raise your hand to say, wait a minute, I have an idea about something. I don't know if it's ready yet. I don't know, like, maybe I'm not smart, maybe it is not brilliant, but I got to speak up. Right? How can you find that way to.

Say, yeah, Before I go there, I want to, I want to add something to a comment you shared earlier, which is so important, and I'm realizing it over and over, in addition to everything you talked about is don't wait for somebody to come and invest in you. Don't wait for somebody to come and say, let me take you to the next level. What are you doing as an individual?

Happens.

Yeah. To invest in yourself. Go take courses. Don't wait. Don't wait for the company or for your employer to go and say, let me put you in this program. And even now, a lot of my clients, they're losing talent. Like some, some of their best employees. And the employees would tell them, you did not give me a career path. You are not telling me what, what I'm supposed to do next.

And this is very victim crap like, yeah, yeah, take charge.

Companies need to have a plan for, you know, the career path and their top talent should. What do we need? What do we need to do as individuals? Don't wait for a company. You create your career path. You identify areas that you need to grow in, and you work on developing these areas. And that's where what a lot of us are missing right now.

So, you know, most of our listeners, viewers are business owners and leaders. Right. So you're not as much thinking about this in your own way, but think about it from the standpoint. Who are the people in your world who are full of potential and they're not raising their hand? Who, who are the people that need some development, that need to know somebody believes in them, that come from some hardship, that lack the confidence that you could give a little nudge up to, that you could send off to a program that you could invite to take on a project and give them a little opening to step into something.

Right.

We lead companies with hundreds and thousands of people, and there's lots of potential there that is suppressed, repressed by themselves, by the organization. Right. Like, and that's wasted opportunity on your team.

Yes. Yeah. As if we need to see their potential because they did not recognize it. And that reminds me of a story. So the first job I ever, ever had, I was applying for jobs because I needed to start making some money and paying for my, For My. My education, one bedroom apartment before, before even that, when I was still married and every single company would not give me a job. Obviously, like, my confidence was low. I was so shy. My English wasn't great. Until one day I applied to bank of America. And I still remember I was in a conference room. The hiring manager, his name is Matt. And as we were doing the interview, I kept telling myself, he's not going to select me. Here we go. Another person that's going to tell me I'm not a culture fit. But then at the end of the interview, he said something, something that stayed with me, like, all of this time. He said, everybody deserves a chance. Everybody starts someplace. And then he said, I'm going to give you that chance. So he gave me a minimum wage teller job, 10 hours a week. But because he gave me that chance, I was able to work on my confidence, work on my English, start getting better. But then years later, when I was working on my master's, it's so funny. I was doing an mba, and I did not see myself as a leader. So that was after I escaped. So one of the things I did was work on my master's. I did not see myself as a leader, which is so funny, like being in an MBA. And one of my professors, his name is Dr. Starling, he reached out to me and he encouraged me to run to be the president of the student organization. And I was so surprised. I'm like, nobody ever saw me as a leader. What was he thinking? So I said, thank you. I will attend events. I cannot lead. I don't know how to lead. And I just thought that was the end of it. But every time he saw me, he kept encouraging me to run over and over and over. And I just wanted him to leave me alone. And I said, okay, I will run. Thinking that nobody was going to vote for me. Why would they vote for me? I didn't have leadership skills. So to my shock, I was elected. And that started the whole journey of leadership for me. Because somebody, a professor, realized that I have the potential, that I did not realize it, and kept pushing me out of my comfort zone. So when we think about Matt got me into business, invested in me, trained me. And then Dr. Starling saw something in me that I did not realize. So imagine how many times as entrepreneurs and of course, business owners, we need to do that. We need to see the potential and challenge our team and not make them always be scared of being perfect and just to obey and follow what we're telling them to do. Let Them challenge us as we are challenging them.

That's really great. So much fertile thing there to think about. Developing yourself, developing the people around you, reaching out, creating openings, realizing that we all share different versions of constraints of one kind or another and that that has a limit both on our own work and potential, but also on the organizations and the teams that we lead. Right. And what a terrible cost. For sure, the People Matters is the thorniest, hardest, right. Like getting your strategy right is really important to attracting, bringing clarity to what to do. Getting your execution right is optimizing the cash in the business. But people are the wackiest, weirdest heart, but also full of such power and possibility for helping to grow. You can't build anything really significant on your own. Dima, maybe one last question before we start to wrap the show. If you could go back in time, like what's the advice or encouragement that you would have for yourself in the past?

Wow. Which phase in my life? Because there's different.

Well, you pick, like starting the business or a young girl or making the. Yeah.

If I go back, let's say when I was five years old, I would tell myself, things will get really bad, but you're gonna be okay. Like you're gonna cry, you're gonna be afraid, but you will be okay. Keep moving forward, keep focusing on your education, keep focusing on your self development. Because without my education, without believing in myself and continuing to try to understand who I am, I, I would not have grown to who I am right now. So that's, that's what I would say. Things will get bad. And that's what the thing when we're as, as business owners, we know that it's not going to be like this. Things are not going to go up. It, it's going to get bad. And what do we need to do to keep investing in ourselves, keep educating ourselves, educating our team, working harder, knowing that it will eventually get better, but we just need to through the lows before we go through the highs.

That's really great. Very helpful, I think, useful to encourage, remind yourself that the only way that you won't get through to the other side is if you quit and to give yourself some room to go through the, the difficult moments, the dark times. So find a way to encourage yourself through all of that. Dimagawi. Dimagawi.com we'll put it on screen. We'll put in the show notes so you can go find it. Dimagawi spelled a little bit differently. Right. So go look at the show notes and if you need to get it or look at the screen right now so you can go check out her work in leadership development, talent development and like that. So thanks so much for joining us on the show today and sharing a bit of your story. And I think there's a lot to learn and appreciate about ourselves, our lives, and the people that we work with on our teams. Reminder to all of our listeners, we do a workshop every month on Scaling up and we bring together all these things and we have 570 some or more of these shows at our website, scalingcoach.com so get the workshop, get the tools downloads, get all the past catalogs, search all that stuff, sign up for our newsletter, get updates on all of our shows and content that we put out every other week and get all that@scalingcoach.com and then of course, wherever you are now, you can like subscribe, turn on your notifications so you don't get them. There's two episodes most weeks that come out and there's something that's probably helpful. So if you, if you dug it, if you liked it, stick around. So we'll share with you more. Big thanks and shout out and appreciation to my friend and mentor Vern Harnish, who created the whole Scaling up framework that we use in our in our business, and to the folks at storyon, Cameron, Seth Christel and the team who get our show prepared and produced every week. Thanks again everyone for watching, for listening until we talk to you again. Until next time, keep scaling.