Maximize the Value of Your Business - Nick Arellano

Foreign. How do we get the most for your company? How do we maximize the value for your company? We're going to share some stories and ideas around that today with our guests. That's our topic for the day, is maximizing the value for your company. Hey everybody, my name is Bill Gallagher, Scaling coach and host of this very fine Scaling up business podcast. Our show comes to you every week with everything to do with getting the strategy right, getting the team right, executing well, optimizing the cash and your leadership required to lead and grow the company. Whether you're the CEO, founder or just one of the leaders on the team. What's required to help take your company from, you know, here to a 10x or 100x kind of future? That's what we're all about here at Scaling at Business podcast. So 400 plus shows now, lots and lots of things wherever you're getting this right now, like subscribe, like all that. But you could also go to our website, scalingcoach.com and learn a little bit more about the scaling up and the tools and the coaches and the coaching programs, education programs, all that stuff that we have there@scalingcoach.com all right, all right. I'm joined by Nick Arellano.

Now.

He is a managing partner with your legacy partners. They're a boutique M and A firm and we like talking to this right. So boutique M and a buying, selling companies. And so he's got a lot to say, a lot of war stories to share about companies that have done it well, not done it well, in terms of getting the most for their companies. I know both personally as a CEO and with our clients, I've seen times where we've really missed the opportunity and times where we've done brilliantly with it. So it's a, I think a lot of good stories here. Welcome the show, Nick.

Hey, thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

So I'm up in Northern California. Nick is down in Southern California and but he did his education in the Midwest. So Nick, tell us a little bit about your kind of career, the work and what's led you to this firm and like that.

Yeah, sure. Again, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Grew up in Minnesota. Early on knew that I wanted to be in the finance space and started as a financial advisor and got the CFP and all the licenses and early on started working with really blue collar baby boomer business owners and realized I.

Don'T have a Minnesota accent.

That's good. I seem to have lost that. I lost the cold Winters and the accent, which is good.

Yes.

But we realized early on that they found a lot of value when we would help them prep for sale. A lot of them didn't have the assets necessarily to invest. It was all in the business. And so my kind of light bulb went off after I guess 12 years of doing that and said hey, that's where they really get value. These owners is helping them with the business, enhance that value, take them to market. That's really the lifeblood of what they're doing. So did MBA at the University of Chicago as you had mentioned, and have been doing this ever since. I'm a certified exit planning advisor and a certified valuation analyst and certified financial planner. So we try to take a holistic approach to doing this and have had my own firm for a number of years and really enjoy working with those owners that have built a good sized business. Maybe don't, you know, they're a little bit above that business broker stage, maybe in the neighborhood kind of business broker area, but maybe not quite to the whole very large complex transaction of an investment bank. And I think we can deliver some of that maybe Wall street expertise to these owners in a way they understand.

So the, the companies that you work with is really common range of companies that we often see 5 to 75 million is the big, of course we see well above that in terms of revenue after we start working with them, but an awful lot in that range as begin the process of the scaling up work. So let's just, let's dive into it and let's lead with some of the stories, that kind of thing. You shared some stories in preparing for the show. So let's just talk about the Midwestern event technology company first and tell us about that business and what happened and how that went.

Yeah, so that was an example of, you know, we talk about sometimes you don't get all the money right at close and sometimes owners are a little surprised to hear that, that wait a minute, this isn't like selling a house or selling a car where I'm just using it or working in it until I'm ready to sell. We list it, we get the full value and we're done. It's a lot different when you're selling the business as you allude to on a lot of your shows. It takes a lot of preparation and a lot of time to really optimize and increase that value. And, and so this was a really good example. We were actually on the buy side on this one, which is rare for us, but we had Two owners that kind of. In the Midwest, they had a really good size business and a good business overall. They had been operating successfully nationwide for decades. And the two owners and kind of one key internal person were really ready. They were at the age they wanted to retire, they wanted to be done. They wanted to really be out within a year and move on. And they had a good business. But even though they were a large.

Business, they're running it for. For over 20 years.

Yeah. I don't know the exact time, but it was well over a couple Decades. Roughly 24 years. Yeah.

And were they a particular age?

They were late 60s. One of them was early 70, so 68, 71.

Very motivated to move on.

Yeah. And so we talk about, and you talk about as well, when you want to exit and how you want to exit. And for them, the when was now and how was, okay, we'll do the transition and we'll exit. But to kind of tie in that they were a little bit surprised that maybe they don't get that full amount. And it really comes down to what are the risks that are present in that deal. And that's gonna lead oftentimes to some structure in the sale price. So you may be only gonna get 30, 50, 70% of that purchase price upfront because of some risks that are present in the business. But oftentimes, if we're working with them earlier on, we can address some of those risks and put some things in place. So they came to market and again, we were on the buy side, which is rare, but. But one of their issues, couple of their issues was the two owners were really heavily involved in the business. They were the key salespeople, they were the key leaders in operations. They were actually all of the relationship management for the top 10% of customers. And the top 10% of customers were over 90% of revenue. So just on the surface, we could see, okay, great business, over 20 million of revenue. But there's some issues that if these guys leave, we're not confident the rest of the revenue is going to stay for years. And as we dug in and we showed them this analysis, they agreed. They said, yes, we see that risk. We understand why there might be some structure. We might not get all of it up front. And it really opened their eyes to, you know, maybe we're not sure that that revenue is going to stay. And we had dug in to understand that there really wasn't anybody else in the company that had been heavily involved with those customers. And so the proposal and kind of that deal structure where they didn't get all the money up front or weren't going to is it was. We had a hard time getting to 50% of the cash up front, but we were willing to pay over market value. Our guys saw a lot of synergy, they could operate it, but if we're not buying 90% of revenue.

By market value you mean a multiple of ebitda, correct?

Yep. And so we were willing to pay above what kind of normally would have been the expected multiple there. But there was a major risk that could have and should have been addressed. And I think it comes through. Something that we talk about a lot and you've mentioned is the strategy, we talk about integrating the exit strategy with your overall business strategy. Right. It could have integrated the people and the leadership and execution so that the cash would have been more. So it resulted in having a less than attractive offer with less than desired amount of cash up front. But they could have left and it ended up being that we had to probably walk away from the deal and they understood. They ended up taking a deal from a private equity firm where it was a lower price, not all their money up front.

Seven multiple.

Yeah. On the low end of that. And they, the private equity firm was actually requiring them to stay involved for five years. So when you talk about when and how you want to exit, that was like the last thing that they wanted to do.

So yeah, think about that. Like we regularly see multiples way above private equity money. But, but you're ending up so 3 to 4%, 3 to 4x earnings on the low side and having to stick around and work in the business for a number of years. When you're in your 60s, early 70s. Wow. With a little bit of preparation, building a team, honing the operations, getting yourself out of the accounts. Totally different picture. Right. Bigger multiple, more predictable, more cash up front, less time on the job.

Yeah, very much so. And they had, you know, a couple mistakes in the process that if we're looking at, you know, examples to take away, I mean they hired a kind of a part time business broker which maybe they did or didn't know, used to working on a little bit smaller businesses. But this broker actually had his own business that he was running which was most of his full time job. And so I don't think the time was taken up front. We talk about in our business we have three phases. Phase two for us is going to market like a normal investment bank or business broker. Phase one is all pre sale preparation and we're tying in three legs of the Stool, financial, personal and business, and we dive into those. But, you know, had they taken some of that time to address a couple major things, which, you know, we'll talk about in a second, the physician practice that did just that and had a much different outcome would have been a lot different scenario. And when we talk and you talk about, you know, know, exiting when and how you want, this was kind of the, the bad scenario for them.

Somewhere around 25 to 50% of the people we work with have a specific exit in mind. Others have a growth for a sort of future unspecific exit. And then a few are thinking more about a generational transfer, that kind of thing. That's a, that's a minority, really. But, but a lot of these companies are thinking about that, like, how do I get out? And that the goal is, okay, so we're going to work two to three years with scaling up coach, we're going to level up our team, we're going to get a good growth story going, we're going to pull ourselves out of the business, tighten up the operations, and then we're going to market the company. Right. So that whole first two, three years is really that kind of work. But it's worth millions of dollars on the sale.

It really is. And when we talk about, you know, what buyers are looking for and they're buying the certainty of future cash flows and if there's things that aren't in place, like if it's very dependent on the owner and you remove the owner, that's a major risk. And that, that's a major value drop. And we need the exit Planning Institute, which is where the SEPA designation is through, does a lot of studies on that. And just, you know, a lot of businesses, especially on the smaller side, that go to market and sometimes have no value or a fraction of the value, and there's some things that you can just put in place that can address some of that and give it value.

Yeah, such a big difference. Well, let's contrast that. Right. That's a, that's a less fortunate story. Lower. I mean, there was a sale, right. So we have a couple of owner founders who got some money, who got a pathway to retirement. They had some work to do. They didn't get as much. But. But talk about your physician practice on the East Coast. One owner describe that story.

Yeah, it's kind of the flip side of that story. And for somebody that did it, right. And you know, this happens to be a physician's practice, but it applies to most industries. And she Came to us early enough on where it's like, okay, I don't need to sell today, but I'm ready to go shortly. Great reputation, great patients, kind of a worldwide recognition, patients from around the world. And when we first did that assessment of, okay, we can go to market, but let's see where we're at. Where are buyers going to see value? Where are they going to see risk? As most businesses, and she's a good sized business, she was heavily involved both in seeing patients and in the operations of the business. And we said, look, if we go to market now, we're going to have to take a lot of structure in that deal, meaning we might only get a portion up front. And a lot of that cash purchase price is going to be contingent on this business continuing to operate and they're going to have to put some people in place. But I said we could take some time, dig into this, see if we can put some pieces in place, might not take that long. And as we dug in, we found that a, there was a really good successor doctor that could take over a lot of her portion of the patients. There was a number of doctors there, so that filled that gap. So she spent time kind of training and familiarizing her clients with that. Dr. Number two, there was some in that industry, you have to have some really good support nurses, higher up support nurses. And we realized two of them were really, really good and they could play a larger role than what they were currently doing. So that bridged a couple more gaps. And then they had an operations manager that they were able to hand off some responsibilities as far as understanding how the business ran. So that left us with, okay, whether we're approached by private equity or strategic buyer, a large hospital, another practice, we have some options because the people left in this business can continue to operate that business. And it took only about eight to 10 months really to get some of this stuff at least in place. Right? And people familiar say, hey, this can function now. And when we're going back to market, you know, highly confident that our purchase price has increased quite a bit. And probably more importantly that that deal structure, the amount of cash you'll get up front will be a lot higher than it would have been. And we can use this a little bit as a negotiation tool to increase price further because any structure that we take in the deal, meaning any cash that we don't get up front, we can try to push a little bit higher price because we're taking on risk and waiting for that money. And she's very Confident with the steps that we put in place, the pieces we put in place, that the business will continue to function. So she's comfortable accepting that risk. We have a well oiled machine now and excited for that, you know, just.

To tie into that example and the contrast. So we do, I work with about 10, 15 clients at a time for two to three years in the in depth. Right. Like our scaling up, private coaching, work with our teams and we do about one sale a year. Company sold. Right. But we do about five times that many in terms of acquisitions. Right. So our clients as they're scaling are often bringing in some money and doing some acquisitions as part of the growth strategy. They're going to buy up some complimentary businesses, additional locations, territory, any number of things like that. Right. And I can remember a healthcare business that was doing some, some acquisitions and, but in at least one, maybe a couple of them, both the primary practitioners and the support staff went away. So nurses, hygienists, things like that are changing out, plus your healthcare provider. And if you go and you change the insurance and things like that, there were some cases where the value that was bought eroded significantly because the customers left. They're like too much too quickly in this business and it's not all positive. And that's a thing to think about on the buy or the sell side. If you want to create and enhance your value on the sell side, then you want to think about conveying to potential buyers that I can leave this business and it's going to keep growing. You've got a team here, they're going to stick around. It's not dependent on me, you know, that that kind of thing enhances your value. And on the flip side, if you're looking to buy companies, you want to make sure that if you take out that owner, even if they are in there a little bit, you want to make sure that that's not going to erode whatever you're looking for from that business, the capability, capacity, the customer, relationships like that.

Absolutely. And one of the biggest questions we get just from clients coming on board right away is, you know, where do I start? Is a lot of it. And I mentioned this too, but we have a tool, yourlegacypartners.com scorecard, but it's really a business attractiveness scorecard. And you can go in and there's a number of sections that talks about owner dependency and customer concentration and a whole number of questions where you can go in and kind of honestly fill in. Where are you currently within your business?

We can do a link up on the screen, but I'm not sure. Is it your legacy partners, plural.

Your legacy partners, plural.

Up on the screen. Because it's. It's missing the S there. We'll throw that up again and we'll put it in the show notes appropriately. Look at that. We're so fast.

It comes down to what you're buying.

There's a tool there to help advance things. We use a number of different tools when we think about stuff. We work with companies on checklists, on fundability, on saleability. We think about and we use the ideas of Built to Sell, Warlow's book. Let's design in and let's set you up so that you can exit the business or let's set you up so that we're funding or recapping the business and you're still involved for a little while. They're both valid kinds of options, depending on where you want to go.

I think a lot of owners, even at the level that we're talking with, don't really realize that there are a lot of options like that and we'll get to it. But the opportunity to sell even a portion now. Right. And maintain some equity or keep a role in the business or not keep a role. There's a lot of options based on how and when you want to exit. Emphasis on the how.

What portion of your buyers are private equity versus strategic family offices, that kind.

Of thing versus it depends a little on the industry, but in a number of industries we're getting mostly strategic buyers. But we do have a lot of interest from private equity firms. And with the private equity, oftentimes they'll own a firm already in the industry, like a platform firm, that almost makes it like a strategic acquisition. And oftentimes those ones are willing to put a lot of capital and get a lot of synergies from the transaction, which can really help to drive up the purchase price, especially as we run a competitive process. And part of what we do is get involved with those buyers on calls. I will personally get on with them to kind of vet out, okay, what is it? How does this fit with what you're doing? Right. So that we can use that as negotiation leverage and. Okay, great. I think we can push them a little bit higher as far as purchase price and structure.

Yeah, we can. We see, we, we. I mean, taking the most obvious typical things, we have a very strong preference for sales to strategic buyers. And on the buy side, of course, we want to get as close to private equity type valuation we can. And Structures, even if we're a strategic buyer. But if you're smart and you're trying to maximize it, you want to sell to a strategic type buyer at a strategic type multiple. You want to have multiple offers on the company and have a company who's very cleanly saleable that you can step away from very easily, who's predictable, who's well run, who has good plans, regular habits. Right. Like clean cap table, clean ownership, great documented agreements and contracts. Right. All those kinds of things that can screw up or enhance.

Yeah, it's a lot of the traction things and running like you'll be there. Somebody's smarter than me said run it like you'll be there forever, but could sell it at any time. And having those things in place. And when we see businesses that come across and are positioned like that, it really helps because what we've seen in the past, we had a couple. And there's a couple examples too. We had one up in the Midwest that because there's so much. We've had a long bull market in a number of industries. Interest rates were low. We had a lot of unsolicited offers. And that's where we just. Those that have taken the time to position their business were able to say, okay, I wasn't necessarily ready to sell yet, just thinking about it, but this is a really good offer above where we might get. I think, you know, hey, I might need to keep a role because I want to work for a few more years. But this would be an attractive offer to consider and we're set up to do that. And we just had one that we finished in the spring that was just like that. And we were able to get through and. And accept the offer. And it was a great.

Tell us about that company. Tell that story. Mm.

So it was again, kind of a services company. And it had been. This is a little bit in the. Had worked with them, but this is the construction services company up in the Midwest and had worked with them and had known of them and had started really. Because we go through a number of phases. Phase one was starting to do some financial planning and how much do you need? It had been in the family for 50 plus years. Dad started it, son, 45, was running it, but not ultimately what he wanted to do for the next 20 years, but still loved a great business. And so we had. They had a number of good things in place, didn't need too much work, but we had focused on some internal things which we've already talked about. And it came that after a Few months of working with him, we received an unsolicited offer from a private equity firm that had owned other entities in that space. So it was a good strategic, synergistic fit and we were able to negotiate a pretty good deal for them because everything was already in place. And he was able to say, okay, great. Because of that positioning that's already there, I would still like to remain. I'm not ready to stop working yet. Don't play golf and want to stay involved. Right.

You could ski, you could travel, you could buy an airplane.

Yeah, right. And he had some. He actually races snowmobiles, which is interesting. And so he. That's up for Midwest very much. So we did agree to a little bit of earnout which allowed us to push the price a little bit higher. But again, all of that was from having, as you mentioned, having those pieces in place and having the business ready allowed us to say, hey, we're totally confident that you know what, revenue is going to continue to grow and be higher and we're completely confident that that's going to remain even if you purchase this firm. And, and sure, we'll push the price a little higher. We'll take a little bit more in an earn out over the next couple years. And it was a very attractive structure for him. And that kind of ties in just a little of the other. You know, we talk about strategies that kind of minimize taxes and different things. That is a big topic for owners. And so we had some. We worked with some strategic partners and just in a nutshell, we were able to put together since he's maintaining, we sold 70% of the firm and he retained 30% for a couple years because that buyer really wanted to put money into the firm and saw a lot of opportunity there and he agreed. So there were some things that we were able to do then A, the earn out and contingent payments delayed some of the purchase price. So that pushed taxes into a different year. The equity that he was able to retain, we were able to put in a tax advantaged vehicle. His wife had some philanthropic wishes that were important to her. So we explored like a charitable remainder trust. So she'll get a tax deduction when she donates the shares. She can continue to take income. The remainder gets donated to charity. So all that was important because we had done planning, figured out what they needed to live off of and then that remaining equity is going to grow a whole bunch. So it was great to have in a tax deferred vehicle and a lot of these. In other situations, if you get to it before you actually sell can have a great advantage, especially years before.

Let me point out a couple things in there I think that are really important. One of them is if you get an unsolicited offer, right, We've got a single buyer now. We're not marketing the company with multiple bidders, but we like the number, the direction, it's worth talking. A key hack that we say is make sure that that exclusivity and that conversation, like any change to it and you can yank it. So if you start with someone and they give you an offer and then they. And you're locked up and now they're doing their due diligence, then what will happen is typically they will start to find reasons to knock down the price. That's that the standard move stock to knock down the price or to delay it or to put it into earnouts or things like that later. So to restructure it to disadvantage you in some way. So the key move then is to pull that exclusivity so that if they start doing that, you just back out. You say, okay, we're going to talk to more people now or walk away from it. I think that's probably the biggest thing that if anything at all changes, then you remove the. That thing that constrains you. But it's worth doing. And having that conversation, it's okay as long as you don't get boxed into that thing. Like, okay, now we're going to sell. And so many variables there can come up. We had a client more recently that got a 10 times earnings offer, a little bit more than 10 times earnings offer, and sounded really good. And it was pretty much all up front except in negotiation. They were going for 100% stock, right? So company buyout, and they wanted to buy the whole thing with their stock. And we said, yeah, you should really think carefully about that. And in fact, the stock tanked. So had they taken that thing, they wouldn't have been able to get out of that stock right away and they'd have gotten a fraction of the money. Now, the other thing there is the balance, and you alluded to it, but is the balance between what you want, what you need, and kind of the range of what you might be able to get. Right. Sometimes we have a company, we're delusional about what it might be worth while we could get out of it, what it'll take.

Absolutely, yeah. And we have. I've worked with a number of owners that come in and I think what happens is you hear oftentimes hey, this business sold for this multiple. But you don't know the size, you don't know the details of that, you don't know how much was paid up front or the structure, the growth or any of that. But you go off that multiple. But it's why we focus a lot on that phase one and the preparation and the planning and we tie in that strong financial planning background that I have too. It's, as you alluded to, not just what you want, what do you need? Right. And what is it based on? What you need and need to live off of and fund the things that you want to do. Because you talk about freedom and it is the ultimate freedom if you get to sell that business and pursue your life's purpose and passion and what really motivates you. But it's, you know, when you get to that point, it's great to be able to pursue, you know, those things that have meaning for you.

So I think we both agree that you ought to think about when the exit occurs. Whether it's a couple years from now or it's 10 or more years from now, you ought to think about that exit, not leave it to think about at some future time. And you say three to five years to get ready. We tend to say at least a couple years to get ready rather than having it be. If you get an unsolicited offer, you haven't done the groundwork, you're going to end up in a position like that company that didn't get as much. Our first example there. You might still be able to sell it, but it's not going to be as happy a number.

Yeah, we get a lot that. I mean, you can accomplish a lot in the one to two years. And we use that physician's practice as a really good example of that. Right. In that, you know, we were able to put key things in place and get the staff at least moving and address major risks in under a year. So is it better, you know, with the number of people that are even starting their business or starting to think about when they want to exit, there's some strategies to put in place and some things you can do in your business that will have tax advantages, business advantages, value advantages over time because of the growth of the company and having that growth, you know, grow in a tax advantaged vehicle, or have these people be more accustomed to the processes as we've had with, you know, a couple different businesses that are able to spend that time and have those things work out to their advantage.

And all right, we're going to talk about what are your critical moves in getting ready for, for the sale of the business and the scoring of the business. We'll do that in just a second. Before we do that, let me just remind everybody that our show comes to you every week with something new in the world of growing and scaling your business. So if you'd like some help or if you've got a topic or you need to find a coach or want to do some of our educational programs, we do boot camps, workshops, masterclasses, we have our private clients. There's a whole range of things and we have 230 coaches around the world. So infocalingcoach.com gets us in touch with us. Of course you can like subscribe wherever you are right now. And we're actually just in the process. We're almost by the time you see this, we've probably updated our website and all those shows and back catalog are back there again@scalingcoach.com so there's our email and there's our stuff like that. A couple shout outs to our my mentor and friend Vern Harnish for creating the whole scaling up framework and like that. So let's talk about your, your like what are your top moves to get ready to sell and maximize the company? What are the things you think are most important?

Yeah, and this is from experience of working with these owners and I think most of them come and say I don't know what to do, I don't know what it's worth and I don't know where to focus. And that for us is if you need to get that understanding. And that's, you know, we mentioned it already but the business attractive scorecard yourlegacypartners.com score I think it really gives you, you get to go through and create the score for yourself. You get to see a different couple sections of the business that might be important to buyers. So you can say okay, where is it that I should focus? Something we also do that corresponds with that that we're doing in our phase one is looking at the business valuation. Because if we're looking at that and again we have an entity that does buy side stuff as well or that makes co investments into firms. And so we can look at it from those buying eyes, from the eyes of a buyer and say okay, well here's what I would see. I would have to structure something based on this. And once we understand where it's strong, once we understand where a buyer is going to see issues and opportunities, we can Then lay out the foundation of okay, here we're going to have 90 day workshops and address these things and put priorities in place that are going drive some of that value. So I would say it's the first step is really to a start right now. There is no wrong time. If you're just starting your business. Okay, how are you going to exit? We have people that as they buy.

Think about when this exit is going to be. You might think about what you need or what will make you happy. And then we can work on engineering to that end or start to think about what that would take to get to that place. Right?

Absolutely. And it's nice because there are, and I don't think owners realize this, there are so many different options for how you can exit vehicles you can use, types of buyers, situations that you can have where it's really about what's important to you. It's not one right answer that you come in, somebody gives you the answer. What is it that you find important? How do you want this to go as far as how and when and what things are important? Once you get the money.

Right. Who are you willing to sell for, for what reasons, for what money, with what conditions, what kind of payout? All of those things are matter and you can't figure all of them out up front. Right. Some of them are going to get discovered in the process. But you got to think a little bit about that ahead of time. So first, when is it going to occur? What are you going to need? And then starting to engineer. Then of course, there's some things that we talk about all the time. Let's get the operations of the good of the company really dialed in. A clear plan that we're executing on with good habits on a regular basis. Let's get a solid team in place. So let's make you the owner. As unessential, as strategic as possible to the company, not as involved in the operations. Let's have great agreements and contracts and that kind of thing. Not a lot of loosey handshake things and unclear intellectual property ownership and undocumented agreements to key people about future stakes. All of that stuff is a nightmare. Yeah.

Which is sometimes counterintuitive to an owner. Like, okay, make me unessential. But it's what drives value. That business can continue to operate.

Build a business that you're not critical to, that can survive. You get hit by a bus and it's worth a lot more to your family or to you in the long run. Yeah. All right, so we'll throw the link up again. There's a whole scorecard there that you can go to yourlegacypartners.com Score Thanks Nick so much for coming on the show and talking with us today. Yeah, that's great.

I appreciate you having me. We love what you do and how you're helping business owners and a lot of good knowledge.

There's lots of good stuff there and this is the right time to think about it. Of course you can get in touch with Nick and his company there through that link and think about stuff if we can help you, of course. Infoscalingcoach.com I'll give a big shout to Wanda Mitchell who gets our show ready and our guests ready and that kind of thing. And the folks at Potfly Productions who produce our show. We mentioned Vern Harnish already, my friend and mentor for creating the whole scaling up framework that we use with so many companies now all over the world. Thanks again everyone for watching, for listening. Make it a great one. Talk to you again next time. Bye bye now.