Sell the Mission, Not the Product with Dan Grech

Foreign, At least pre recorded live. I'm live. Hey, are you any good at telling your story? Do you? Are you good at telling story of your business? Are you sure? How do you think you're good? Well, if you think you're bad, this is a great show for you. If you think you're good, we might want to check that. We want to up your game, but there's a lot of power in great storytelling. Hey everybody, I'm Bill Gallagher, Scaling coach and host of the Scaling up business podcast weekly in your ear. 600 and I don't know, 70 episodes or so now. And we love doing it. We bring shows to you every week about growing scaling your business and people and authors and CEOs and lots of things that would have you up your game around. Strategy, people, execution, cash people and strategy are both really central to the things that we want to move with great storytelling. And that is the subject of our show today. You'll find all our back shows and more. Where are we getting this right now? Like subscribe, do all that or go to scalingcoach.com where you can also get into our like again our newsletter. Come to one of our workshops, join one of my cohorts, all that stuff and more@scalingcoach.com all right, Dan Gretsch. Dan Gretch joins me now is on already. If you're watching the video. Welcome to show Dan. So Dan's a Pulitzer prize winning journalist and an entrepreneur. He's got a business. We'll talk about about developing the story around your brand. He's an author of an upcoming book, your business is your story. He's a graduate of Princeton. A lot of great things. We're going to get into all that and more. We talk about his journalism. Dan, welcome to show.

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

So Dan and I met at a business workshop recently and we got into talking about the power of storytelling and I'm very passionate about it. I've had many guests on talking about storytelling in the past from different angles. And it's a thing that I think is really, really important. So I'm excited. Tackle this with somebody who's got such a great background. Before we get into it, you famously told me right in the in the beginning that you got fired from a Miami NPR affiliate and and then it precipitated a whole change in your life. Tell us your story.

Well, first of all, say, you know, I'm going to definitely tell a lot of stories today, but I'm also going to kind of go meta like, like a magician showing his tricks. And so I'll start by saying people love failure stories. And this is one of my best. And particularly the failure story involving getting fired publicly and humiliated is particularly appealing to many entrepreneurs because many of us are unemployable and had similar things happen early in our careers. In my case, you know, I was on this incredible trajectory, became one of the youngest news directors of a major market NPR station, won literally hundreds of national awards with my team and was a complete arrogant prick who deserved to get his ass fired. It came suddenly and unexpectedly and publicly. It was published in the local newspapers, it was published in the trade press. There was an investigative reporter who was looking into why would such an accomplished news director, sort of on the rise, get fired. And it was, they were kind of trying to see if they were financial or sexual misproprieties. And the truth of the matter is no, it was just hubris, arrogance, kind of this misreading of the room, you know, believing that all those awards would shield me. And they liked the results, they liked the team, they didn't like the guy leading it. And it was the most difficult moment in my professional career and also one of the most important learnings I've ever had. And it kind of catapulted me onto my entrepreneurial journey because I was this mid career ex journalist with no job prospects who needed to reskill. And the way I wanted to reskill was to learn how to do marketing. And I ended up starting a marketing training company to help myself and others.

Like me, you know, so before we continue on the story and talk about the storytelling and the next story on like that, I guess really useful to underscore a couple things there. One of them is that by and large, executives and CEOs don't like telling failure stories. It's really uncomfortable. We like to spin everything as like, I'm a total winner and all I do is win. And my biggest weakness is that I care too much. And I, you know, like, it's just, it's painful and nauseating how we can't bring any humanity to anything. And you like, I don't know what every listener heard, but they probably all heard moments where they were arrogant or proud or thought about, reminded of things where they failed and thought that somehow they could salvage it. And like I had a huge career thing where I was white hot, super cool and I was an asshole and I got fired for being an asshole. And I mean there was like a little business pretense for the Firing. But really it was about that I was a jerk and I humiliated somebody who eventually became my boss. And I. Look, I was young, you know, and I was full of myself. But. And like, you learn from those things. And like you, I went and I, I'm like, oh, I need to do something else now. And it's hard.

It's really hard, you know, and what I want to point out there, we're gonna, I'm gonna keep kind of like doing this like, meta thing where we're like, it's gonna be a little annoying for you, Bill, but hopefully useful for the audience. I'm gonna like, observe what, what's happening here. So my core belief is in authenticity creates bonds of liking and trust that drive business results. So I am telling that very well rehearsed story in a way that hopefully feels fresh and authentic with a very specific goal of making you like and trust me. Not just you, but your audience. And one of the signals that a story is working is when they come back to you with their own story. And one of the cool things about, quote, the firing story is so many of us have a story like that. Mine is really heightened. I was like, it was like published in newspapers that this happened to me, which makes it, I think, all the more like relatable and appealing. But I love that you shared that and thank you for it. And that's like the gift, like the, the exchange is sort of the sharing of stories. That's kind of an age old thing that we do. And ultimately my core thesis is business is human to human. And so stories help create that.

A lot of times we will mash back on top of it. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's go back to my story. I don't want to hear your story. And, and we don't realize that person just connected on something with us. Right.

And.

Oh, and, and when, when I answer back, I'm. I'm wanting to create relatability and connection and, and like a common bond there with something. But I think before we get into that, one of the. We didn't cover so much, but let's just distinguish for a minute on the fly, the difference between storytelling and talking about things. There's something different. Like storytelling somehow connects you to something and other people can describe things for you and leave you cold. And somehow a description is not storytelling. So we didn't pretend prepare for it so much. But what, what would you say is the distinction between the two?

Yeah, I call this story for the sake of story, which is like. Ornament and then story storytelling that is strategic, which has a specific business outcome in mind. And that's the huge difference. Right. And so the way that you get away from story is, ornament is. And turn story into strategy is through what I call the parable moral framework, which actually comes straight out of religion and sermons. But it was taught to me by Ira Glass of this American Life, one of the kind of fathers of NPR storytelling. The idea is that you tell the story and then explain what it means. And the problem is, a lot of times we tell stories without either explaining what it means or even sometimes fully understanding what it means. And so that's how you make that shift.

There's a couple other things that I notice. For me, when people are talking about things, describing things, there's no, like, temporality. It's just data points. It's like talking from bullets. There's no emotional connection, so there's not an arc. There's descriptions. There is no emotion, no feeling with it. There's no openness, no generosity, no sharing. It's just reporting on and describing things in a fairly cold fashion. And I think we're a lot devoid of and uncomfortable with emotion culturally and even more maybe in business that those things come out. So people start and they tell you about their business, and they describe things and they don't say, you know, they don't tell you the story. Like, okay, I got fired from my thing, and I started this thing, and it led to this and then morphed in this way. And now I am like, there's not a. There's not an arc in time. There's not a. There's no emotion. There's no sharing. There's no openness with the descriptive.

I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. People in that situation are reciting resume bullet points and talking surface level, and they're not connecting story to values, core values that have been there since they were a kid. And so the. The exercises that we do. The exercise that we do in my consulting are really about connecting you up to those values. And that has, like, two really important and interlocking outcomes. The first is you start to internalize the value that your business is providing. In other words, you. It's not like you trying to prove something to the world. It's you doing something because. Because it's essential to who you are. That's what it means to go from externalizing to internalizing your value, and then the other is embodying your purpose. Right. So when you talk about your resume you're almost like talking about someone else. But when you talk about your larger purpose that comes from this really deep place in your history and your influences, you're able to embody that in a way that makes, like. Solves all of the problems that you just described, which is essentially just staying at the surface.

Mm. You know, the other thing that you mentioned, I think is interesting is in business storytelling, there's a. Like, I could tell a story that's pretty emotional, powerful, and just leave you, and you're just like a whole world of. Of feelings and thoughts and things like that. And. And. But if I take the. If I'm intentional and take the strategic thing and I throw a question out and I say, when was the last time you called your mom? Or. I don't know, whatever it is, I. I mentioned that because my mom called me this morning. I couldn't take her call. I'll be feeling guilty until I call her back later today. But I think there's that. Right. Like, you flip it to them. And then the other one you talked about is you tell the story, and then you tell the moral story. You know, I noticed something about my relationship with women after I saw that thing with my mom. Boom. Now I'm like, oh, I've translated. I've internalized. I've now reflected on. I told you the story of what happened with me and my mom. And then I told you the thing. Now my mapping it. And then I turn to you and I go, when's the last time you had a. Or what do you notice about that? And then, like, that's a very powerful storytelling turned into a whole thing, you know?

Yeah. I call what you're describing that. There's a technique that's called the magnetic question. I think of stories as being like a magnet that attract your ideal stakeholder, you know, your ideal customer, your ideal employee, your ideal partner, and also repel and help you figure out when to say no. And the magnetic question is ideally a single phrase that you can use it like a networking event to immediately identify if the person you're talking to is your ideal client profile. So I'll just give you the example for my business, which is, is there a purpose to your business beyond profit? Is there a purpose to your business beyond profit? And when I ask a business owner that, there's three possible answers, right? One is, yes, of course. And then I ask, what is it? And they tell me. And then I ask, how good are you at telling that story to all your important stakeholders? Inevitably, they're Like, I'm not good at that. And then I say, that's what I do for a living. I help businesses with that. The other answer is, no, I don't have a purpose beyond profit. Usually I'll say, are you sure? And then if they say, no, I really don't. It's just about making money. I say, awesome. You know, I work with companies where it's about more than making money. So if you ever bump into somebody who's looking for that kind of thing, I can help them and kind of move on as quickly as possible. And then the third is I'm not sure. And that's a great answer because I said, well, that's what I help businesses get clear on. What is their purpose beyond profit. So like literally within two to three questions, I've established already what my value prop is in a way that feels very non salesy.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I, I think in the, in selling and fundraising and partnering and that kind of thing, telling the origin story of your business or you're joining the business or this moment that you got excited about a thing beyond making money is a really, really interesting thing. Like you get in touch with something that, that really connects with people and then they see why you even care. I think that last question of. Because I had a guy, I helped him grow his business some years ago and eventually sold it and he's like, I don't really know, do we have a purpose or not? Like, look, I bought this business and I intend to grow it and sell it. And I did it because I thought it would make money. And I'm like, yeah, but there's a reason why this one and why you've stuck with it and, and what you're proud about here. And he's like, yeah, I'm not really sure that this is going to pay off, but, but I'll, I'll indulge you, right? Like so, like, okay, let's see what happens. So we, I was working with his team, right? When I do it, it's not usually with the individual, it's usually with a group of people, sometimes with an individual, but, but often with the team. So I sent the team out to walk in pairs as I like to do with a lot of interesting questions. And I sent, and I said, like, what are the moments that you actually care about? Like, what are the moments where you were proud or where you told somebody about your business, you were proud of what you did? What were you talking about there? Right? And they came back with a Bunch of words, as I have people often do, and they put their little phrases and words and statements on sticky notes, and we put them on the wall, and then we move things around. And then after a couple minutes of moving around, what emerged was we keep the world working. And when those words, like, emerged from our moving around pieces of paper on the wall, there was like, a little gasp in the room. There was like, oh, that's beautiful. Right? Like, and. And it's interesting that some of the people. This is a staffing agency. Some of the people resonated with the idea of keeping employees employed. You know, staff employed so that they could feed their families. And other people resonated with keeping the business going that. That needed employees to keep going. Didn't matter. It worked for either person. They ended up putting it on the back of T shirts that they wore around the office every day for years. You know, could still be that way today. Like, I just love that. Right.

I want to talk about that gasp for a section for a second. What is happening when they gasp is recognition. Recognition, sometimes for the first time, of why they're doing what they're doing and why it matters. And I've had that experience at this point hundreds of times. That pause, that intake of breath, that gasp. And it is so powerful, not just as an emotional experience where you get that, like, clarity and conviction, but actually as the foundation, the strategic foundation for building a business. And I think it's a beautiful description of, like, what I really genuinely feel I was, like, put on this earth to do, which is help people get to that gasp, aha. Moment and then build a business from.

It, realize something they care about, and.

Then see it so sharply and clearly. And, you know, there's this great phrase from called a blinding flash of the obvious. Like, these gasps are best when they're super obvious, yet have never been stated out loud before. And Tom Peters built a whole basically consulting practice around the blinding flashes of the obvious that we somehow don't see. And that's where coaches come in, is it's very, very hard to see it. But when someone holds up the mirror, suddenly things become clearer.

Tom Peters wrote the book In Search of Excellence. He's been on the show a number of times in the past. He's a lovely human, and he would connect business practices to, like, common sense, humanity kinds of things. You know?

Exactly. I love that. And then I did want to just do a quick call out. You were doing a version of an exercise that I call Peaks and Valleys, and you were focusing on the Peaks, Right. What are the moments when you felt most empowered and ennobled and excited by the work? And what were the words that came to mind? What were those moments? But there's also the valley moments when you felt the most depressed, the most disconnected, the most like you wanted to walk away. And what were the values that were being violated in those moments? And that those combinations of peaks and valleys can be incredibly clarifying when it comes to what are the company's core values and what is its larger purpose?

Yeah, I think the contrast of that. We do that often, especially with early stage companies when we're looking at like company values, company purpose, we look at both the things that you loved and were inspired by and are proud of, but we also look at the things that turn you off. The contrast or the, the opposite of whatever that is is something that you care about. Right. The moments that created a crisis for you that were upsetting to you. Right. Like, oh, I can't be with that, you know.

Yeah. And you know, I wanted to go back to something that sort of happened quickly when I was first telling that firing story because it's like another really key tactical move that really unlocks all of this. Like, you don't want to present yourself as like the hero of this story. Right. You know, like you don't want to make this like narcissistic and all about you.

Well, I do always want to make myself right.

I mean that's honestly we, you know, in our heads we're always the heroes. Right. But as Donald Miller talks about, you know, your, your customer is the hero or whoever you're talking to is the hero and you're the guide, the mentor. So how do you like talk about yourself but in a way that isn't narcissistic or ego serving? And the way is through the, what I call the story of me to story of us shift. This is an idea borrowed from a great thinker named Marshall Ganz. And so when I was talking about my firing, I was really talking about a problem. I was a mid career ex journalist who needed to learn marketing quickly to become like employable. And so the way that I solved that problem for me was I built a course, a crash course in digital marketing. And then I realized that, or you know, I basically created a curriculum for myself that was a crash course in digital marketing. Then I realized, well, there are a lot of other mid career professionals and business owners that need to learn marketing quickly too. It's been like the blocker for their business. So I started a company that was dedicated to solve that problem that I had first, but that so many others have, which is how to use market marketing to grow their business.

Right.

And it was a little bit botched, but the idea is that story of me from fire, journalist, hyper specific, really detailed, rooted in my personal experience to what became kind of like a corporate mission. Right. Which is to make sure that the seven years that I spent struggling to figure out marketing, we compressed that journey into seven weeks. And the reason why is so that you and your business can thrive.

It's really funny. So I've taught digital marketing at the college level, university level, and I have background in marketing, you know, many millions of dollar companies. And I feel today, like, so staggeringly ineffective at it.

Like, like I call it the M word. The M word.

And I look around and I, and I, like, I understand some of the basic ideas, but I feel so ineffective today at reaching people with things that I know that would make a difference and developing lead, like developing lead flow. This is terrible thing to say on my show and that kind of thing, because you'd think it would be just like, just floods of stuff. Look, I'm successful on one level, but on another level it's. It's so humbling how like. And I. I'm not a bad storyteller.

No, it's, you know, I call it the N word because marketing is so frustrating to me and to so many businesses. I would say it's probably one of the sources of most frustration in business owners, and very few of us are marketers. I particularly appreciate this because I came to marketing in my 40s, and though I've learned a few things, I've come to more or recognize how little I really know, especially when it comes to the evolving technical aspects of it, which moves so, so quickly. And so the only response that I note to that bill is to kind of root back into the thing that never changes, which is story and authentic connection. There's this beautiful line from Patty Digg saying the shortest distance between two people is a story.

Mm, that's a lovely line. Lovely. Poetic.

Yeah. And so, you know, the more we move into performance based marketing, where we track every customer journey, to AI based marketing, where the bots are doing the talking for us into intelligent automation, where we're kind of setting it and forgetting it, the more I think the world of consumers and others want, like that human connection.

Yeah. The thing that I'm struck by this year as I grabbed this is not in any way like a resolved thing to share, but what I'M struck by this year is that the world that I play in is noisy and filled with big names with big budgets doing things. And the less generic I am, the better, the more like personal, flavor, unique, specific that I attract and repel people, probably the better for me. I've spent the good half of this year focusing more and more on what do I actually care about, what aspects of business growth, what version of business growth, what style of business growth, like, what kind of leadership is interesting to me and letting more maybe of the flavor come out.

Yeah. You know, one of my biggest frustrations in business is the phrase unique value proposition.

Yeah.

Because. Yeah, because so many of. So many of the businesses we run are really, I call a flavor of a me too business. You know, and man, the competitive set is they're deeper pocketed, they're more established, they're bigger brands. How do you compete in a scenario like that? And I really only have one answer to that, which is exactly what you described, which is lean into what makes you. You lean into that unique flavor that makes Bill Gallagher like a delicious flavor of ice cream. You know, lean into your personal history and what you're sparky about and what you care most about. You know, what I say is like, why you do what you do and why it matters. And the, the more you lean into that and the more you embody that in everything you do and say across all of your relationships. If nothing else, you carve a very unique and memorable and meaningful path and you attract your ideal people to you.

Yeah. Yeah. I gotta trust her to believe that. I think I've spent a lot of time thinking, like, I need to do more. Oh, I'm behind on certain things and feeling like less than or inadequate. And that leads to, you know, like, overly desperate, thirsty behavior, which is never attractive and thrashy, sort of high effort, not like flowing powerful but effortful kinds of things. And that always is drag. And yet when you, like, share your story and talk about this, like, people respond, it resonates. It. It like connects differently than, than that brute force stuff.

Yeah. And I want to. I've been spending a lot of time thinking and honestly getting, getting tested by, you know, the entrepreneurs that I work with to ask, well, how does like, getting clear about why you do what you do and why it matters, how does that actually translate to business results, you know, or is this just marketing fluff? And this is my answer, and it's probably an incomplete and imperfect answer. So I'd love you to help me make it better, but I see like three really critical, like business outcomes that the clarity that comes from knowing why you do what you do and why it matters gives you one is it helps you make more strategic decisions that are aligned with those values. Number two is it attracts people who are drawn to your larger mission. And perhaps most importantly, it shifts you from a more fear based mindset to one that is more about growth and opportunity and love. And so it operates like in three levels. It starts with states, with strategy, like you said at the beginning, people, and then owner mindset.

So say more. What is your like in this case? What does strategy mean?

Yeah, so strategy is more or less, how do you avoid the revenue chase and how do you know what to say no to? Uh huh.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. It becomes a strategic filter.

And then the people is about who you work with and who you sell to and who you buy from and that kind of thing.

And who you partner with and how you kind of interact with the community. Yeah, all those stakeholders. So your customers, your team and your partners, whether they're suppliers or business partners.

What's the owner mindset?

So the owner mindset is about shifting from kind of fear based to more growth based or love based decision making. So instead of like being driven by fear, you're driven by purpose. And what that shift in mindset does is it helps you show up better as a leader and it helps you, you know, really believe in the value you're providing. And that helps you on sales calls, close deals, it helps you on investor calls, articulate what you're doing and make them believe that you can actually accomplish it. It helps you with hiring people who are values aligned. Like just having that present in all of your conversations, you know, what I call the light energy versus the dark energy of fear makes a huge difference.

So let's play with that for a second. I, so I, I love to talk just frankly and openly about things that I'm grappling with or that clients are grappling with. Right. But it's easier to talk about myself than I don't always have permission to share client struggles. So I have been realizing my business is changing, needs to change now. And the way that I did business through 2019 got dislocated massively. 2020. And then actually in responding, 2020, 21, 22 was way up, like because the crisis was clear and what to do. And then things got kind of muddled as investment and the kinds of companies that I work with and the focus on growth and world economies and politics and all kinds of stuff, it's gotten really muddled and it's become clear that it's time for my business to shift and evolve again. Except, I don't know. And then for a long time.

I.

Don'T know, for a lot of this year, I. Or even actually more the beginning of the year, I felt like, helpless and fearful, like I don't know what to do. I just need to like, do something different. The way that we worked with people, like, not the specific work, the results that all continues, but. But how we reach people, how we engage people, how we connect. A lot of that was unsustainable. The amount of travel that I do, the frenetic nature. Anyway, it was all just feeling broken and I couldn't figure out what to do. And then I started to notice and realize that I've already won at my life. Like, the things that I actually wanted, like the accomplishments, the business growth, the. The money. I mean, I don't have that much money, but I. But I have enough. Like, I have what I need, right? So I've helped a lot more people afford private jets than I have. And. But. But I don't really want a private jet. I'm a private pilot. But I like to fly unusual things, not sort of purposeful things for fun. And like, so I, you know, I had the kids that I wanted, the family that I wanted. I have the spouse that I wanted, the marri that I wanted. I have a family like, you know, I have fun, I have play in my life. I have all these like. And I just realized, like. And then when I think about at the end of my life, what do I want said about me right.

After.

I'm dead and gone, my family gathers. What do I want them to be able to say? Like, oh, I already have that, right? And if I really have the family, the life, the things that I want, and I could retire tomorrow, why am I working? Like, I'm working because I'm busy, because I have energy, because I'd be bored. I'm working because I love the work that I do. I love what I see with people. I love the kind of work that I do.

I.

Such a turn on. So, yes, it needs to evolve now. The modalities, engagements, the way that we work really needs to evolve. And there's an opportunity there. But the shift then is that it's an opportunity for creativity. There's an opportunity to look and think and design something new in the space of. And not to hang on to exactly the way that it's been. So I started writing a Book I committed to a PhD program. I. I started playing with things and I just got a lot looser with. So I. That'll probably continue to evolve for the next year, you know.

So let me. First of all, wow. And thank you. And on behalf of your audience, thank you. You know, the authenticity of that was, was really moving. And you know, just to put some ideas or frameworks behind what you're saying, this sort of feeling of being helpless and fearful, I call that dark energy. Dark energy can be very motivating, gets you up off your ass. It probably helped you start your company, probably has helped you through the hardest times, but it also is not sustainable. It's what leads to burnout. And so while you want to recognize and acknowledge the power of dark energy, you don't want to be a slave to it. And Gino Wickman and Rob Dube in their beautiful book Shine, talk a lot about this kind of trauma based fuel that leaves people often at the top of the mountains feeling empty. But then the other thing that I want to actually lean into more is what I call the light energy of. I love the work that I do. And then I wanted to lean into even more. Like a phrase that like popped for me, that I want to dig in a little, if you let me, which is it provides me an opportunity to be creative. Mm. And I'm wondering, can you think of a moment in your childhood when you were creative?

Oh, lots of moments. Yeah.

Yeah. What's like just one that like pops to mind before, before you turned 18, before you graduate from high school? Ideally.

Yeah. So in it was about fifth, fifth grade maybe. Right. So I'm 10 years old, roughly. I had a teacher that I just didn't love her or her classes. I felt it was unfun, a drag and like that. Right. And I came home and I said something to my dad, maybe my dad, my mom, but probably just my dad complaining about this teacher in this class. My dad said to me, well, why don't you offer to teach a class? And I wish I could go back and watch the replay of that, to see it clearly and not just from the memory that has evolved, but it turns out to be a really important moment of my life. Right. I didn't think about it that much of the time, but so I said, okay. And I, I cheekily went to the teacher and said, I'd like to teach class. And I don't remember if I thought about how I was going to do it first and then propose that or if I just said that or Whatever. But so I said, I offered or asked if I could teach a class. The teacher said okay. And I designed a class around whatever. The subject is long lost to me, but using a comic book, a comic book that we all know as kids as the vehicle and the metaphor, the whatever for class. And it was awesome and the kids loved it, right? Like, and I, and it was like a great experience and I, and I got out of it like one, I have a skill or I can stand in front of the room, I can construct and design a lesson. I can. It didn't ever occur to me that I'd be a kind of a teacher later in life, not for one second. But the idea that I could design and construct things and that I could be persuasive and communicate and all that, like anchored deeply, right. And led to many things that I did not see, right. So, you know, like I started a small newspaper later I, I taught various things, I went into management, leadership, I was on the radio. All of those things are kind of things that, that rippled out of that, you know, moment, right? Very creative and, and enjoyable. I remember it to this day.

Love that. So first of all, you know the Met, when you tell a story like this, I'm just like popping with like the metaphorical power of it. So like, in many ways that teacher is your business at the start of 2025, like a total fricking drag, you know, and it just like you'd, you just lost the juice. And then this move was not just to be creative, which was creating a comic book, which is super creative, but then sharing it. And I know for a fact, you know, like the newspaper you created, that's a creative act that you shared. Like it's creative. Plus sharing to me become the core values and the answer to that malaise and to that question, which is what do I do next? Like, I'm a man who's at the top of one hill and I feel a little empty. So what's the next hill? And the next hill is going to be found in the act of creativity that you share, without a doubt. And that is rooted in that 10 year old boy. And that experience that was partly instinctual and partly inspired by your dad's example.

Yeah, that's funny. Like I, I remember a lot of time as a kid and later in life being like, oh, I'm not going to be like my dad, right? So my dad was a college professor and an author and a speaker, things like that. What the hell am I if not like him? I spent a Lot of my life being I'm not going to be like him. And then of course, a few months ago, a friend of mine was working on a program and she said, oh, this might be perfect for you. A new PhD program for a university. And it wasn't even on my radar, but like, she said it. And then I was like, you know, I did that thing where the dog turns its head. It's like. And I'm like, huh? And I sat on it for a couple days and then it built and then built. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to do that. And not for any good reason other than that was like a next interesting hill to do. And then I thought, God, my dad would be proud.

Yes, that's not a good reason, dude. Right. Like, the language we use matters so much for the most important reason. And by the way, you flipped the narrative. I don't know what your deal is with your dad. I don't know anything about it, but obviously there is a little bit of hard and tough love involved in that. But, man, you are honoring him with your work. And it is no accident that the decisions that you're making when you feel a little lost align with but are, but are like a personally flavored version of the same work he did. You know, you are a multi generation or inheritor of his legacy. And I, you know, I applaud you for that and I applaud you for the, the authenticity and the, and the willingness to share that. And this is, this is the work that I do and that animates me. And this is not psychobabble. This is not fluff, this is not therapy. This is about. You have a strategic decision to make, Bill, about what the next phase of your business is going to be. And you have choices, choices that you earned your way to through white knuckling growth during really difficult times. And sometimes it's when you're at a moment of plenty, when the choice is hardest to make. And that's when I feel you go back in time, you plumb the narratives of your past, you look at the examples that are so important to you, and you then forge a growth strategy that is most closely aligned with that. That's the strategic filter that I see you already almost instinctively applying. And my job is just to take the conscious unconscious and make it conscious. And suddenly the, the clarity that you feel. I just held up a mirror to what you were saying, but do you feel like a little clearer on what you're up to?

Well, if I try to pull out the experience of it and examine it and then think about our audience, my clients, that kind of thing. It occurs for me that just a massive amount of our motivations, our reasons, our patterns all start very early childhood. And so our parents, mom, dad, our siblings, key people in our lives, a teacher to. Some things like that are, like, really, really formative. So, you know, there's a whole chapter of my life and career that my mom had an influence on. And then as I think about this one, my dad has a much bigger influence on it. And then. And then the complicated nature of it. Right. So for each of us, there's a reason. You know, I had a guy who's like, he was really motivated around a particular number to sell his business, and we could have got, like, a hundred times more for his business if we did a little more work on it, but he hit his number related to his relationship with his dad, and he was. He was, like, good and done, you know, like, that was great. Right. So there. There is something about these patterns that matters to us. And there's no, like, arbitrary right answer, better, you know, whatever. Like, I don't want Elon Musk's life, you know, to just pick a very. Maybe the higher level of entrepreneur today, and certainly in the top couple. So. But some people, like, it's driven to be the best of the best of the best, to have the biggest thing, to build themselves a castle, to buy another jet or things like that. And I. But each of it, it's like, a deeply personal thing. Right. So I think about, like, the whole world of my dad, and you're like, it's a complicated relationship. But I think each of us, it's a complicated relationship. Think about your mom or dad, think about your sibling and why you do what you do today. Right. My dad was this enormously charismatic, brilliant, accomplished linguist, entrepreneur. He could. He was a college professor, and he. He could. He was passable in about 15, 17 languages. Amazing. And then there's also some tragedy and some dysfunction in his life. And although I didn't know it growing up, but he was bipolar, and we had a life of huge adventure and lived places and had things and didn't have things. And at one point, we lived in a van traveling around Europe. But, like, that was such a gift of an experience.

Right? Yeah.

And then he declined into alcoholism, and. And as his finances declined and his life declined, he. He took his own life in 2008.

Right.

So. Maybe your family isn't so dramatic, but there the. All of those things, the good and the bad and the love and the pain and the, it's all there for all of us and, and it for sure drives what I do, you know, for sure. The way that I coach and the opportunity to contribute and what I admired in him, that I model today and, you know, all of those kinds of things, it's, those patterns are all there. The way that we do it, we play them again and again. And if we play them well with self awareness, it does seem like great, like, you know, to be able to tell that, tap into that is useful, not available to everyone. Right.

Wow. You know, and how powerful is it to say, I know my dad would be proud of me.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah. You know, the, the pain and the promise of our youth become the blueprint and the fuel for our adult life. And I, I feel like when we made the choice to start our own business, to be a founder, to be an entrepreneur, whether we realized it or not, we were also, you know, putting ourselves in a space where we need to grapple with this because it's not an accident the business that we started, it never is. And the more you know yourself and you understand with clarity why you do what you do and why it matters, the more powerful and effective a business owner you become.

So let's distill out, you had some great takeaways, some framework, things like that for our listeners. What are the practical things you talked about, about telling the story and then telling the moral of the story in the question. So maybe just recap a little bit of that for us before we, yeah.

And then, you know, I, I, then I kind of had a question for you, if you're okay with it. And I'll, I'll preview it, but I'll tell you the summary to give yourself a little time to think about the answer, which is, you know, now that we've said out loud, what was there all along, which is, you know, that, that your father's influence has guided a lot of your most important strategic decisions. And is there in a very present way, as you kind of are at this pivot point in your business? I'd be just interested in hearing if there's any clarity strategically you have for 2026, for the go forward, if that's provided maybe some answers to some of the questions because we're in like strategy planning for next year season. And so I just wanted to sort of have you, as we kind of go to wrapping up, just reflect on, because that's my big thing is, is getting clearer and recognizing what you're actually up to creates business growth. So I'm really curious how you're going to Translate that for 2026. Do you want to answer that now or do you want me to give the wrap up?

Well, I could.

If you're ready, go for it.

If I, if you gave the wrap up and I was thinking about that, I wouldn't hear anything that you said.

That's fair. And I, you know, I have a feeling you might know the answer or at least have a. The first. The first draft of an answer that might, you know, get revised after the call, after the meeting.

I have the part. So part of me is like, oh, I love and model. I want to do not repeat him. But my version of whatever I got from him that I can use, like what he did in the way he did it was him. And then there are certain things that I inherited, learned, and can use. Right. But not in the same way that he did. So what is it that I can draw from, be inspired by and use? And what is it that I want to be careful about? Like, where did he trip himself up? Where did the addictions. Where did the bad business, where did the neuroses get in the way of him being effective and that and how to learn from both the good and the bad. That's what immediately comes to mind as I think about. And I design how I'm going to use things in the year ahead.

Right.

Like what to lean. You know, so much of my year. I have my calendar for the next year downstairs, and I've started mapping out. I have things booked all the way through December now, like, a ton of it is already kind of mapped out. And then some of it's. We don't know exactly where it's falling, but we kind of know what the. The. Some of the other middle months look like. But. So there's a lot but. But the way that it goes down and then. Or what I walk away from are all still on the table. Right. So I think it's useful to think about that now, to think about the good and the bad of him, the totality of what he had to share. Because he wouldn't want me just to do everything he did. He would want me to avoid his mistakes. Right.

I love the phrase what to walk away from. And I think if nothing else, use his story, the good and the bad, as a strategic filter for what to say no to in 2026. Yeah, just like, look at that calendar with your father and ask that, like, is this. Is this, you know, like, what. What is motivating my, my desire to do this? Is it more fear based or more kind of legacy, love based? And that might provide some clarity because.

Like, like walk, what doors will I walk through? Right? What will I walk away from? What will I allow to change? There's two big things that are already on my mind. I'm not going to share what they are just yet, but I kind of know a couple things. It's like, oh, it's time for that one to change or to end, you know.

Yeah. The number one strategic filter in all of business is what will make me money. And I, and that's why I asked the question, do you have a purpose beyond profit? Because what I'm trying to do is center. At least I think it's purpose and profit. So I'm like, I want there to be two strategic filters. One is will this make me money? And you know, is this fulfilling my larger purpose? Right. And if you use both those filters, I think we'll, we'll create more meaningful business that does better.

That is a really, that is a really good reminder because I am reliable at filling my day, like filling my calendar. I'm really good at being busy, not being idle. You know, if I'm accidentally idle, I get uncomfortable like many people. And so I'm good at doing that. And I'm doing, I'm good at producing impact about like having, you know, I'm good at creating some value in the world. I'm not always good at getting paid as much like I see other people who, who on some subjective level I might judge and think, oh, I'm having a bigger impact than they are and they are making more money than I am. And so sometimes that's a humbling thing to look at their world and go, wait a minute, I'm doing more. Like how do I make more from this? So there is something to the smartness around. But that does also expose that my main driver hasn't been money. Like some people, the game, well, like a guy like Warren Buffett, like the abstract game of making money, there is, is of interest to him. It represents certain things. But I've not been that guy.

Yeah. And this just gives you frankly a more authentic filter to ask, ask, should I do this or not? Otherwise you're kind of guessing or kind of going by instinct and now you have intention behind it. So let's, let's first of all, thank you again. And let's talk about, I'm going to talk about like three big like high level points and then three More tactical points as takeaways. So the first is, we started this whole conversation with a very, like, basically the worst moment of my professional life getting fired. And we made the point that failure stories are very powerful to build fast connection between you and whoever you're talking to, whether they're a sales prospect, a prospective business partner, or a podcast host and its audience and his audience. The second is just one of the most vivid and moving examples I've ever experienced of childhood influence, the good and the bad, the dark and the light, and how that is the secret, sometimes unspoken, animating force behind our lives. That's just like the central thesis. And then, like, how to then, like, acknowledge that, recognize that, and then use that as a strategic filter for growth. And then the third, which is sort of like overall, the telling of true and authentic stories. This is not mythologizing, right? For those of you who are listening, there were a few tears shed during this call that authenticity builds, like and trust, which is the foundation of business people. When you share authentically and they share authentically back to you, and they feel heard and seen and listened to, they like you and they trust you, and they ultimately want to do business with you. So that's like the big, like, framework. And then like the three, like, tactical sort of strategies that we talked about was the tell your story, then tell what it means. And so that's like the parable moral. You know, it comes straight out of the Bible and other religious studies, but it's really a universal storytelling technique. I was taught it by Ira Glass from npr. And the idea is that you, You. You tell a story that has a purpose behind it, that has a. That has a lesson embedded in it. And that, that lesson, of course, is to help support the growth of your business when it's in a story, a business context. And then the second, which is related is this shift from story of Me to story of Us. You know, this kind of addresses the concerns of sounding like you're too full of yourself, you're too narcissistic, that you're putting yourself at the center of this story, when really you're just the mentor and the guide and the customer is the hero. This also addresses the scalability question, right, which is so central to your audience, which is how do you scale up if you're telling your founder story so much? And that's the shift from story of Me to story of Us. And that's where you. In that what it means. You're talking about what it means to the specific audience, you're Talking about, talking to, right. And you know, my favorite example of this, and it's a complicated example, but it's, I think, at least it used to be a really good one, which is the founder of Starbucks, Howard Schultz, would talk about this really searing experience he had as a young man when his father, who is a cloth diaper delivery man, fell on ice, broke his hip and was immediately fired, and he fell into severe poverty in New York. And that that searing experience of poverty influenced the way he built Starbucks, which for many years until after he left its leadership really took care of its people. And he said, how do I build a company that has a conscience? And it also sort of shows some of the risks when you have next gen leadership and the company sort of loses its threat, loses the thread and puts profit above people. But that story of me, the story of a shift, right, where you connect like some very specific experience of your dad breaking his hip, you know, in New York to like the whole guiding thesis for a Fortune 500 company. And then the third, that's what you need to do every time you tell your story is don't, don't let yourself lose the discipline of remembering who you're talking to and how what you're saying connects to their experience and how you're solving problems that they have. And then the final one is let your audience finish the story. And this has two meanings in this case. Like, first of all, how many times during this conversation did I share something and then you shared something else? That is exactly the kind of dynamic you want of this, almost like swapping of authentic stories. But also, you know, when you, this kind of builds on the idea of the story of us. When you place your customer, let's say, or your audience, the person you're talking to, at the center of the story. When you recenter the story around the story of us and how what happened to you is now sort of being transformed to serve them, then give them the opportunity to connect the dots to their pain, points to their opportunities. And it's actually that mental work that they're doing while they listen to you that actually is where the sale happens. Because the second they see themselves in your story of us, they're sold.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. Those are good elements to pull in, I think, telling your story, telling it well, there is practice involved, there is intentionality, there's thoughtfulness into how you, I mean, look, you can tell a powerful story and just tell it for the entertaining factor. Go be on the moth or something, you know, and, and enjoy the storytelling. But then you can also use it for purpose, tap into something to, to drive that emotional connection, the feeling, the passion around why you do what you do and what problems you solve and who you love to help and, and all, and then, and then all of these things like sharpen it so much more. If you want to know more about Dan and his work, TheStoryDrivenBusiness.com is Dan's website. TheStoryDrivenBusiness.com There it is on the screen if you're watching on video. And of course it'll be in the show notes. But not too hard to remember. The storydrivenbusiness.com is the place to go. It's been a pleasure, Dan. I will see you again soon at one of our upcoming workshops if you'd like to join. So I have a weekly cohort and you can get on and join. My weekly conversation mentioned about growing your business. That's a private group of companies that work together. We're about to start a monthly one around evolving your leadership style to be about less effort, less busyness and more flow. So that'll be a monthly one that'll start up. We of course do workshops every month and then we have other kinds of private coaching, that kind of thing that can help you. So if we can help you, go to scalingcoach.com that's for us. Story Driven Business and scalingcoach. Com, those are the two websites to check out. Thanks to Dan, thanks to Wanda and Anna for getting our show produced. Thanks to my friend and mentor, Vern Harnish, who created the whole scaling up framework at the core of our business. Thanks to you all for watching, for listening. Keep scaling.