The Pursuit of Excellence with Ryan Hawk

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You have ambitions. You're striving for things you know to do. Anything significant, you need to be a better leader than you have been. You are today. That's what our show is all about today. How do we level up our leadership in pursuit of excellence? Hey, everybody, My name is Bill Gallagher, scaling coach and host of this fine Scaling up business podcast. Our show comes to you every week with a guru, an expert, an author, a CEO, somebody who's got something to share to help you level up your team and yourself. And of course, it always starts with you. As we say, you'll find more than 500 shows@scalingcoach.com along with our monthly workshops on mindset and tools for scaling, our free mini course on the stages of scaling and growing your business, and all the back catalog of shows and more. Scalingcoach.com all right, listen, I'm joined now by Ryan Hawk. Ryan is show host himself of a terrific, like a top top podcast, the learning leader show. He sat on amazing guests, people like Jim Collins, Stanley McChrystal, Tony Robbins, like that kind of thing. And he's done three books in the world of leadership management. Welcome to management, Pursuit of excellence and the score that matters. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Bill. Appreciate it, man.

Yeah. So we're getting into all of this, and I always like to start off kind of with your personal story, like, where did you have this moment or this shift for yourself that you moved from whatever into a leadership role? Tell us about that.

Yeah, I was very lucky that my parents chose to move to Centerville, Ohio, when I was quite young. And one of the primary reasons was because there was a legendary football coach named Bob Greg. And I think my dad had a little foresight hoping that his sons would grow up to potentially play for him. And I don't know if he cared as much about us being athletes. It was more about being influenced by positive role models outside of the home. And luckily, it kind of worked out for. For my brothers and me to. To play football for a legend and to learn about grit and tenacity and preparation and work ethic and what it means to respond to tough moments. And we learned that through, you know, playing sports, notably football. And I think I've kind of taken everything I've done from that, that early experience in my life, my formative years from. From my head coach Bob Greg and offensive coordinator Ron Ollery. And I also learned the power of leadership. I learned what it means to believe in somebody as well as the impact a leader can have by, by believing in them more than they even believe in themselves and lifting them the levels of performance that they even think they are capable of. And so I thought, like, as I've grown up and matured more, I've drawn so much from that experience that like, maybe, maybe I could have that type of an impact on other people and do it in a, on a big scale, hopefully by studying leadership and then sharing what I'm learning from the best of the best with, with others, usually in the form of my podcast, which I've done for the past decade, as well as publishing some of those key learnings and the books that I write.

It's interesting that so many great business leaders come from sports, and some of my best clients over the years have had either sports or a military background. And there's something that we learn there about working with other people that's so critical versus the, some of our entrepreneurs, another huge block, are very much sort of solo acts who learn, who stumble through the leadership side of things, like getting other people to work together in a coordinated fashion. You're right. Especially like sports, like you're going to learn at a very early age. Military, depending on the background, might be more of a struggle as you learn to be part of a group.

You're right. So much so, especially as I progressed from high school to college and then I, I met people from all over the country who had wildly different backgrounds than I did. Completely different upbringings, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different religions, different races. And that was an awesome experience to learn because we really only had one goal and we had, the only way we were going to get to that goal was, is if we, we came together and if we collaborated really well and focused on that mission. I think that's a, a great lesson for life in general. As you then graduate college and go into the working world, you're probably going to need to work with other people from, from diverse backgrounds that have different experiences than you. And so the more you can do that, the more that you can surround yourself with people. That diversity of thought, I think is really healthy. Shane Snow writes a lot about that in Dream Teams, his book, which I've talked to him a number of times, my podcast, that that's one of the factors of building a dream team is people from diverse experiences. And so as a leader, it's really important, I think, to put yourself in those positions as much as possible. So you get, get the reps, you get as much practice as, as you can around people and figuring out how to work with those who are different than you.

Yeah, it's a fascinating thing that, that is something that you have to master. And yet I know again and again, whether it's a live event, like in person, or a remote event with leaders, like, one of the biggest frustrations is the people in the team. When it's our early stage companies in the accelerator program, whether it's people at our summits and in our master classes, like the frustration of dealing with other human beings and trying to get them all to pull in the same direction is an enormous challenge to do because it's all like, there's so many different ways of looking at the world. Different value sets, different practices, different sensitivities, Right?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's, that's what you learn by getting the reps, by, by putting yourself in those positions with others is that you're like, whoa, this is like, I need to, I need to get it from their eyes. I need to put myself in their shoes to understand it from their perspective. And, and you know probably as well, Bill, from interviewing people and having these types of conversations and doing it a lot, you realize, like, oh, there's a lot of different ways to, to, to get to similar positions. There's a lot of different ways to do it well. And I need to get out of my own head and kind of see the world through other people's eyes. And I think gaining that perspective makes you actually a more reasonable person. It makes you see the world in more gray and less black and white. I found by. By exposing myself to lots and lots of different people who have been brought up different than I have and have a different set of life experiences. So I found that to be super beneficial and probably made me like a better, I would hope, like a better friend, a better person in society because I'm just exposed to so many different ways that people go about living their life.

You know, it's funny, one of the most useful things, bits of coaching and practices that was ever given to me and I have in turn used with so many others, is to try to get over. In the head of the other person. Right? And then there's a good book that we've recommended often. The author passed recently after a long illness battle. Just listen, Mark Goldston and. And a lot of that book, which is about better, deeper listening, is about imagining what's going on over there, that person, what's going on over there for them, instead of like, what do I need them to get about me and what's their position. It's like where are they coming from? So rather than like where are they standing and what are they demanding and what do I want? Like a negotiation, it's like how does the world occur for them? What is going on over there? And that is a profound shift, right?

It does. Paina Pompano and I were talking about this when I recorded with her and she studies excellent leadership as well. And she's the one who kind of brought up that term. Like the more and more people you study and the more and more people you talk to and you actually listen to what they're saying and you get a feel for what the world is like through their eyes. The more reasonable you become, the more like open minded I would hope you become, the more curious you become in other people and finding them fascinating. I think that's, that's something I've learned is like, I think at the beginning of, of my work, especially when I launched my podcast almost 10 years ago, I thought like okay, I know, I know a good deal about leadership. I kind of know what's going on. And then the more and more people I talk to, I feel like I know less and less and less. Even though I'm learning more, it's like there's so much more to figure out. There's so many more perspectives to, to, to learn from and other people that it's just bizarre how it works. It's almost, it's backwards. Like the more you learn, you realize you have so much more to learn because of all the people that you know, you're, you're lucky enough to talk to. So I, I didn't expect that when I started doing this. And now it's like, oh man, it's, it's, it's endless right? There is endless amount to learn and I, I, that's, that to me is actually kind of inspiring and exciting.

One of my company and personal core values is I say is never finished. And never finished is this idea that I'll always be working on myself until I take my last breath. And I always at a younger age thought that at some point I'd be done, I'd be done learning, I'd be all grown up. It's very childhood kind of thought I'd be all grown up. But this persisted maybe into my early 30s, 30s and, and I had this notion then I was getting coached at one point and by this person who was expert in something in particular is around speaking and coaching and, and, and they were doing something that they were supposedly masterful in teaching me. And, and I Watched them eff it up, right? And I, and I like, I kind of did that like dog side head twist. And I'm like, wait a minute, they've been doing this much longer than me. And this is so basic. And how are they screwing this up right now? And then I'm like, I'm working on this. They're actually still working on this. They're supposed to be my teacher and masterful on this. And then, and then I'm like, maybe I'll never be done. Maybe that's the whole point of the Karate kid, you know, Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. It's like, maybe I just need to surrender to the process and maybe there's something. And there actually was a truly liberating, like, joyful breakthrough in that moment to something that has continued to this day. It's like, yeah, I'll always be learning. I'll always be like, getting better at stuff until the day I die. We had on Chip Conley, a modern maturity expert recently and great conversation about wisdom and developing wisdom and moving into the second part of your life, life. And it's like, yeah, you're never done. You're always learning and you're growing and you're expanding in your perspective and you're humbled by how little you know and, and, and then increasingly you're reminded of things that you have long forgotten.

Yeah, it actually, that reminds me of a story, Bill, I was recording with JJ Redick, who looks like he, he might become the, the LA Lakers next coach, you know, great TV guy. And he went back to Duke where he played college basketball, and he was going to give a little speech to, to the players on the team. This is a years ago. And as he walked up to the front and he was thinking about like, hey, what's my core message? What is it all going to be about? He looked in the front row and they're wearing their like, practice uniform, so just like tank tops. And he saw, he noticed that one of the players in the front row, he could see it tattooed actually on like the upper part of his torso. It said, you know, I've arrived. And J.J. like, it, it, it like knocked him back for a second. He's like, what does that say? And the guy's like, you know, this Guy's like a McDonald's all American, probably gonna go the NBA, all that type of stuff. And he's like, what does it say? And the guy's like, yeah, I've arrived, man. I'm a McDonald's All American. I'm gonna go to the NBA after a year, whatever NJ said, you know, you've never arrived. You're always becoming. And I, And I, I put that quote on the back of my second book, the Pursuit of Excellence, because it's resonates so much with me. Bill, it sounds like it does to you, too, that this idea of no matter what happens, there's no arrival, right? It's. It's this always becoming mindset. Regardless of what you accomplish or regardless of how good things are going, there's never this arrival date. It's even weird to say, like, have you arrived? I'm like, like on an airplane. It's like, no, no, I haven't. Like, I'm here in the location, but I have never arrived. I'm always becoming. And I think that's like an ethos, a way of life, a way of living. Like, regardless of what happens, I'm not going to have an arrival date. I'm just always going to have a becoming mindset.

You know, I think there's something about that. You think about the key moments in your life. Oh, I graduated from college. Oh, I started my first business. I'm a CEO now. I'm a husband. I'm a dad now. I'm a wife now. I'm a mother now. Oh, my kids are fully grown now. Oh, I made my first million. Oh, now I'm a multimillionaire. Maybe you'll be a billionaire. You know, we have these things and we're like, have this moment of like, oh, I've accomplished something. And you have, in fact, accomplished something. It's just not, like, permanent. Because I've also lost multiple millions of dollars, right? And somebody asked me recently, it's like, because I had grown kids and they had younger kids, and they were like, so what's it like to not worry about them anymore? And I just broke into this really uncomfortable long laugh, and I'm like, my kids are both grown and I'm a grandfather now, and I worry about them all the time. Never goes on dealing with being a dad. I worry about my daughter and her, well, being all the time. Like, I, I worry about every little thing. It never, ever ends. And you, you, like, make some money and you put some in the bank and then you might lose it tomorrow. And you, you know, you marry a great person and then it might all come apart. Like, nothing's handled.

I'm curious. Like, this is something I struggle with. I wonder if you do, Bill. Like, I remember I, after my first book, my book agent sent Me this bottle of champagne. And he's like, you know, on pub day, you know, crack this open with your wife. And I was like, okay. And that bottle of champagne's still sitting in my cabinet. And it's been, you know, now three books have been published, and I haven't done it yet. And I think one of the things that I actually want to get better at, and I wonder if you are. Is celebrating from time to time, is actually pausing for a second when things go well and enjoying it as opposed. Enjoying it as opposed to just going on to the next thing. And I really struggle. And I found, you know, others do too. I'm curious, like, have you figured that out?

I think it's a practice to develop, like a personal discipline. I love celebrating. I have a really similar story. We bought our house. I'm in the same house that I've been in for 28 years now, I think, and I never thought I'd be in it this long, but here I am. And our real estate agent gave us a bottle of Dom Perignon champagne and in a box, you know, nice. You know, it's a brand and all that. And she gave it to us and she's like. And we thought, oh, this is really nice. And we're so busy with this and that. And then we put it aside. We thought, we'll find a special occasion to drink it. Anyway, we moved it around and we remodeled things and did whatever. We moved it, we moved it. And then at some point, we had moved it to this cabinet. And then we were changing things in the. I think we were painting the cabinets. And we're like, oh, my God, look at this. We should open this and drink it. So we finally opened this thing, like 20 years later. And, you know, if you store something right, it might be good. But this clearly was not stored like that because it was so awful. And I think sometimes, like, why wait to celebrate? Drink that, Dom. Now, like, pop the crystal and lean into it because, you know, you might not have it tomorrow. Saving, like, you want to have savings for a brighter day. You want to put things aside, you want to have reserves, right? That is how we get return on luck is by being able to take advantage of things in Jim Collins lesson. But there's. There's noticing and appreciating the winds of every single day of every single period of every week of every month, every quarter. Like, might as well take stock of them now. Like we say, more cowbell. That's why I have cowbell on my sound effects here. Like, and the air horn. Like, we don't celebrate enough on the regular. Right. And just enjoy whatever. And sometimes people is like, I don't really know. What I have to celebrate is I'm like, I know, I'm celebrating that you're still standing. I'm still celebrating that you're still here. I'm celebrating that you're, that you haven't quit or died. Right? Like, that's a, that's worth celebrating some days, some weeks. That's a powerful thing to celebrate.

You find though, that, that, that takes intentional work because, like, a lot of high achievers just go on to the next thing without even kind of pausing for a second to do it. And this, this, this takes, like, coaching to make, to make sure you do it.

In my coaching conversations, in my daily huddles, in my weekly meetings, in, in our quarterly meetings, we always open very early, if not right away, with best news. Tell us your good news. Let's start with the good news because there'll be plenty of time to talk about the shitty things and the breakdowns. We'll dive into that soon. But let's notice because otherwise working with you and for you is just a slog of problems forever and ever, right?

Yeah, that's a good point, man. I like starting and ending with good stuff. Right. What you're grateful for. Good prompts like that be helpful to like, shift your mind. And also I found too, by using prompts like that you're it, it almost conditions your mind to be on the lookout for good things if you know you're going to celebrate or you know you're going to share good news or you know, you're going to talk about things that you're grateful for. It like, works as this forcing function to be seeking out reasons to be grateful or to be seeking out people doing it the right way or to be seeking out, like, good things happening. Because we know especially if you get caught on, on most social media platforms, they are designed by brilliant people for us to be enraged and upset and to engage that way. And that if you're not careful, you.

Can feel inadequate, right?

Yeah. And absolutely. If you're not careful, you can get caught down those rabbit holes as opposed to saying, no, let's, let's look for all the good stuff out there. I feel like that's, that could be really helpful.

Yeah. Gratitude. You know, I, I had a touching acknowledgment from a family member recently who's graduating high school. And he, he, he said, I really appreciated that one time you took Me for a walk, and I was going through some stuff, and you said, look around you. What color are the leaves? What color is the sky? What do you hear? Like, he's like, just get out of your own head and look around the world and find something to appreciate, to enjoy, to savor, to get out of your own, like, misery for a moment. And like, such a useful practice. Gratitude. I have a gratitude reminder to this day, like, 20 years later in my calendar. I used to have two. And it just says grateful. But when it comes up, I pause for a minute and I'm like, what is there to be grateful for? And there's always something. And sometimes I am grateful, like, actively to someone else, or sometimes it's just in my own head. But that moment of, like, what is it that I appreciate here? You know? Yeah. I like to look and, oh, see somebody post about their house and be like, ah, their house is nicer than my house. Or, you know, like, wow, their vacation's better than my vacation. Right? Instead of going, look at this amazing life I live. Yeah.

Yeah, I like, too. In addition to that, whenever you're thinking something positive about somebody or something, like, tell them, send them a note, call them, tell. Speak positively behind their back to other people. Like, and tell them, like, make it part of, like, what you do. And. And so that can be a text, that can be pretty simple. But. But getting in the habit of just telling people, like, wow, like, that was amazing, that thing that you did or how they positively impacted you, like, letting them know I found a deep in relationships and, and just be like a. A mutual feel good. You're obviously going to lift up somebody else's day by letting them know that something that they do has impacted you in a positive way. But it also feels good to tell people that. Like it. I think it's good on both ends. So that's like another thing to. To always be thinking about, of. Of like, oh, if I see it, I'm gonna say it. If I think it, I'm gonna tell them. And I feel like it. That's. That's brought some joy to my life as well as others.

Yeah, I. Yeah. Anything that you can do to add and elevate a little joy, because there's plenty of things that are going to give you a little heartache. Heartache and heartburn. There's always going to be coming around. Tell us about why you launched your podcast. I think that's an interesting thing to think about. I think I reflect often on why I launched mine and, and what Went in. I'd love to hear your story.

Yeah, I was working full time in a leadership role at a company called LexisNexis, and I just finished getting my MBA and my company. Oh, yeah, yeah, they're doing great all the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are you a lawyer?

No, I would use it for different, like, business research. It was, you know, a great resource once upon a time to look for specific.

Yeah, yeah, still. Still doing well, especially in the legal space, which is. I was. I worked in sales and anyway, I was in a leadership role. I got my mba, company reimbursed me for that, and I thought, well, this is a waste to not go back to school again because they'll reimburse me for it. But it took me six years to get my mba. I was working full time. I had to hire tutors. It's brutally hard. I'm a communication major, undergrad, and I thought, like, is there a better way to get some form of a leadership PhD program as opposed to going to a school, a university, and applying and going through the process of taking the courses that they're telling me I have to take, as opposed to me choosing my own professors that I could learn from directly? And I would publish those conversations and hopefully others would learn along with me. This is before, you know, 10 years ago, podcasts were obviously a thing, but not quite as big as they are now. So it wasn't right. It wasn't as big of a thing. But anyway, I thought, also give me a chance for people to say yes to talk to me if I say this is a podcast episode, as opposed to me saying, hey, I just want to talk to you, especially, they don't know who I am.

Right.

But fortunately, this. This kind of idea of creating my leadership PhD program for myself, like, following my own curiosity, where I'm choosing all of the professors for this PhD program with the then idea to publish what I was learning along the way so that I wouldn't really be a teacher, I would just be a learner, and the listeners could learn along with me. And that's still what's happening now 10 years later for my show. And so to me, that's why I started it. I had no intention to leave corporate America or to leave my job. I didn't expect anything to come of it other than hopefully people would. Would learn with me. But in 2017, that's where I was afforded the opportunity to. Where enough demand was coming in for speaking and consulting and advising and working with leaders and leadership teams that I was able to leave. And now since 2017, I've been, I've been doing this full time.

Yeah, it's a great, it's a, that's a great story and a great path about leaning into some particular opportunity and then finding yourself in it, like having it grow and develop from there. I, I, I had all. Was already a coach for a couple of years, and I was thinking about how do I build my reputation as a coach and following and impact and, and I was grappling with this bhag that I big hairy, audacious goal that I'd created for 10 years out. And I had no idea how to get there, but I knew it was theoretically possible. And, and I had a, I was in a peer group, CEO peer group, and one of the other guys, and it was this guy, Jordan Harbinger, who's a bit of a podcaster. And, and this was earlier in his career also. And Jordan was like, bill, you have a background in radio. You're a former radio DJ and radio executive, and like, my, instead of doing a book or a blog, why don't you just start a show? He's like, that's how we run our whole business. At the time, he was running the business that it was a different version than the Jordan Harbinger show today. But. And I'm like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Right? Like, and I same kind of thing. I'm like, oh, it was easy and fun for me by comparison to where, like, writing was a little harder and a little less enjoyable. And I'm like, oh, I like I could do that.

Right?

And then, of course, that led to many things and now, you know, we've had over a million downloads of our show and, you know, that kind of thing, like, it's, it's grown over.

That's awesome. When was that conversation with Jordan?

That was probably early 2016.

That's amazing. Wow. And what was the BHAG at the time?

Well, like 2014, I think I created the BHAG to be, to impact 5 million business leaders before I retire. So I'm like, how do I reach help in some way? 5 million business leaders, you know, and at the time I was coaching about 10 companies and doing some workshops. So I would coach like 10 companies. So that's eight leaders, 80 leaders for an average of two years for any, you know, given period, and then maybe a couple thousand more people in workshops over the course of the year. But, like, there you go. You know, that felt really good and is was good by comparison, but that isn't 5 million. So I created this 5 million thing and I'm like, I know it will require a breakthrough, and I don't know how or where that's going to come from. And then the show, like started, you know, to build and grow from there. So.

Wow, man, that's awesome. That's cool. I find those, those types of, like, mastermind groups where you can develop real, genuine, mutually beneficial relationships with, with hopefully a number of people to be really powerful. Right. To just to like, find a way, if you find the right ones, like to find a way to connect with people where you're sharing the good stuff, the bad stuff, everything in between. And sometimes you just need some fresh eyes and ears to knock some sense into us or at least just to provide an idea and maybe a little bit more than that to nudge us to, to go in a direction. So that's, that's really cool that you took the step to be a part of a group and then certainly got that advice from Jordan and then, and then ran with it.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting today, right? I have over 3,000 companies that are in a lesson, a class, a workshop or something I created or I'm leading live every year. Right.

Wow.

Like, that's a big delta from, you know, eight years ago and that conversation, massive, man.

Like, that seems like a lot to keep up with. Do you have like a. Have you. Have you had to really grow your team and scale, I guess, yourself to do this?

Yeah. So there's a lot of people that, that work on causing that outreach for each of the workshops. There's teams involved with it. Now I have a core team of about six people that help me and I would count among that the three or four people at our podcast production company that would be part of that. And then I have folks on marketing and design, website back office, client management. Then we have a whole bunch of people that run this accelerator program that I create lessons for. And then we have people that produce the big summits and masterclasses that we do. And then we have a peer group of our own that we have people. So we have a whole bunch of little parts of it. Right. And I'm just kind of the through line to it. Like, what's the part that I can do easy and effortlessly? Right.

What's your favorite one of those things.

To do the most enjoyable thing by? Well, there's two things, I guess, that are most enjoyable, but they, they all required to work together. So I love the podcast is the most fun, easy thing I do, right. Have a conversation with somebody like you. Interesting people, hear stories. By far the most pleasurable, low effort, like, just do it. The next one from that is the any kind of speaking masterclass summit, that kind of thing. The problem with it is the connection. Like, there's a huge ego boost when you do a big event. You know, you stand on stage or you. Or you go on zoom in front of hundreds of people. It's a. It's fun. It's an ego boost. It's, it's, it's. But it's more like entertainment sharing on that end of the spectrum. And so without team and CEO coaching, I don't feel connected to what we do. So I know that, like, there's 2,000 people roughly in that companies in that accelerator program around the world, but I don't encounter all of them all the time. So I only have a vague sense of what they're doing with our work. Right. And I hear a story here and there, but. And I know that it's. The scale is bigger, but, like, so the connection, the satisfaction comes from, like, the small little things. Right? That's where I, I get a sense of it. And then there's the scale. Right. But it's that balance, I think, that makes the difference. Right. I couldn't just. I couldn't just do this every day.

Yeah. It's the combination of things, and it feels like I'm with you. When it comes to doing the. The big things to. Lots of people can be fun, and they are fun, but the actual, like, connecting with a person or a small group of people and seeing the difference that maybe all of you can make in each other's lives for the better, like, that is the real juice. I'm with you, Bill. It feels a rush.

Like, you go talking a. In front of a thousand people. It's fun. It's. It's heady after you get over your nerves or whatever it is. But then you, you are. Somebody approaches you later or you're at a table and, you know, they say, you know, I heard you speak last year and you said this thing, and it stuck with me. And. And here's what. With my life or my business, and you're like, thank you so much for saying that. Because until you said that, I'm like, I'm just making noise and hope something sticks.

You're right. You know, you need. We need that fuel, man. You gotta. You gotta get fueled up. And like, it comes into different forms but impacting. I feel like whenever anybody thinks of, like, what is my actual purpose? Like, what am I trying to do? It usually involves positively impacting other people. Right? Like in whatever the wording is of some form.

Yeah, correct.

Right. And so I, to me, like, I'm with you. Like, when you get the sense that, okay, like, I'm, I, I'm doing that, then it's that, that is some of the fuel that's needed to keep going, especially on the days when it gets really hard, like, remembering, like, like we're impacting people in a really positive way. Okay, let's go. Let's keep going. We got to get after. We got to get after. I gotta keep going. Like, as we said before, we can't, we can't stop and be like, okay, we're done. Like, at that point, then I guess you, you're just done. But to me, yeah, that's, that's super necessary to hear that and then to use it as that fuel.

Well, right. You need a break sometimes.

No doubt.

You're going, going, and you're like, stop. Let me take a walk for a minute. Let me breathe. Let me do whatever. I'll pack things in my schedule some days and then I'll, I'll be like, wait a minute, like, move some things, cancel things. I need to go take a walk. Like, I'm like, I'm not being effective anymore. I'm not being creative. I need to make it up a little bit and that kind of thing. When I, when we do shows like this, recording days in studio, I, like, take a walk in between the shows because I need to clear my head for a minute. I'll go down, say hi to my wife and, you know, before I come back up and start with you, we.

Got, and we, we have to be intentional about understanding what, like, we need first. You can't, you're not going to be really effective at leading anybody else if you're not good at leading yourself first. And that, that's, that's always in, in progress, right? Always figuring that out. And if you're not fueled up, you're. You're not going to be really effective for anybody else. So, like, it's, it seems selfish, but it's actually not to take care of yourself first and understand what you need in order to be your best self for when you show up to do your work or to be there with your family.

Well, what does it mean to you today? Like, what does learning look like to you today? What are all the, the forms and shapes that it takes in your life now? What do you do to learn now.

You know, I studied a lot from Charlie Munger, who recently passed away, about the idea of becoming a learning machine. It flows well given my podcast called the Learning Leader Show. So, like, it's all about leadership and learning and being a learning machine. And really, like, that is about going to bed a little bit wiser than you were when you woke up. And that is a prompt I do like to ask myself at the end of each day is like, what did I do today to intentionally be a little bit wiser now that I'm going to bed than I was when I woke up? Like, there's really just, like, a few parts to it. When I think, think it for me. Like, I have to constantly be taking time to fuel my intake engine. Reading, listening to podcasts, listening to podcasts, speaking with people who are far wiser than me that I can learn from. I think you also have to take that learning and put it into practice. You can't just be someone who takes notes and, and, and reads all the time. We have to take that from theory to practice. So put it in action, run experiments, actually do stuff. That's when we really learned. My background's in sports, and I certainly learned a lot from watching guys ahead of me and older than me play. But I learned the most when I was under the bright lights with 11 guys trying to kill me. Like, that's when I really learned. I think you gotta, you gotta do it. Then you also have to. As you mentioned before, the step that a lot of us skip is we gotta pause, we gotta have some silence, we gotta reflect, we have to analyze, like, what worked, what didn't from those experiments I ran based on what I learned. And then I think the fourth stage that really brings it home to ensure I'm learning is I need to teach it to somebody else. And teaching I found to be one of the greatest tools in the world for learning. So if I'm going to go up and get on a stage, like, I'm going to prepare like crazy. I'm going to understand what I'm talking about. I'm going to get very clear on my point of view, on my perspective, because I'm trying to be useful, I'm trying to help people. And so the process of the preparation for those big moments, whether you're working with leadership team, you're giving a speech, whatever it may be, working with a mentee, I. When I teach, when I'm put in a position to teach, I learn a ton through the preparation and then through the actual execution. Of whatever the event is. And then the post event feedback I get of, okay, what was most useful, what wasn't useful, what was good, what wasn't good, right. Getting feedback from people that I'm teaching. And so I think that's like a flywheel, right? Fuel the intake engine, run experiments, reflect, think, create some silence, teach it to somebody else. Around and around we go. And I found if I do that, like those are good days, those are good days to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up. And so I try to try to make as many of those days as possible. And when I do, it seems like, you know, things go well and I impact people in a positive way.

It's interesting, the teaching and coaching deepens your learning. Like you have to know the basics of something from time to time. I get asked to teach something that I have not a deep, or don't think I have a deep knowledge of, right? And so they'll say, hey, could you teach us some things from this book? And I'm like, I do know the book. Let me, let me go look at it again. Let me come back to you and see what I have. That it. Right? And then I'll go look at it and I'll realize like so many things. Okay, Actually the concepts of that book are really simple. The mix of them is a little bit different. But like, yes, I know these things deeply. And so then I'll construct a lesson around the book and the, the ideas from it or whatever and an exercise, maybe a worksheet or that kind of thing. And I'm like, I could put all that together. And then in the process though, I'm teaching myself those ideas that I did know well, but in the language and the mix and the presentation of that book. And then by, and then by the time I do it, like with them, like I've leveled up and then I take it a little further and, and now I can use it again and again with other people. But, but like just preparing to teach and to coach is like levels you up in things for sure that you big time, you have to have some level of them already.

Yeah, for sure. But that's why I think I like one of the questions when I work with leaders, I ask them is when is the next time you're going to teach somebody something? Huh? Like when are you gonna, when's the next time you're gonna teach? It can be anything. Like you could teach your, you could just go over, you read a book and you're you're gonna, you're gonna synthesize the information you learned and share it with your wife or whatever. But when's the next time you're going to actively teach somebody? And that's a prompt every time we talk because I want it to get in their mind. I need to be regularly teaching, right, like, and to think about that teaching and to prepare for that teaching and to share because that's when it cements a lot of learning. It's like, that's why I like, like writing books is really hard, but it's a for again. It's a project I sign up for as a forcing function to learn. Because when you get the thoughts out of your head onto the page, it forces you to get a very clear, clear on what you believe. And so I don't fully know what I believe or what I've even learned about a topic until like I write about it. And so my first book was called welcome to Management. I was like, oh, I know this, I got this. You know, and when you do the book proposal, you only write a couple sample chapters and then you get the book deal and they're like, okay, finish the book and you've written 10,000 words and you got to write another 50. Well, I didn't fully realize how little I knew about the topic I claimed to know a lot about until the publisher obviously thinks I know about, until I, I started like, okay, it's time to write this thing. So that's why I push leaders to teach and I push them to write because it forces clarity. And I don't know about you, Bill, but I like from a leadership perspective, when you have a leader that isn't really like a very clear thinker, they're probably not a great communicator. And it's really tough to lead if you're not a clear thinker and you're not a good communicator. So those are skills that again, we're never going to be perfect. So I think we always have to be working on them in order to effectively lead other people. And if we're working with leaders, we gotta, we gotta push them to do it because they can get caught up in the day to day fires that they're dealing with at their company or whatever it may be. So I kind of act as an accountability person to make sure like they're working on the fundamentals and the skills that they need to develop to be really effective.

You know, I'm having a thought as you're speaking about all this, about a Swirl of things that I would bucket all as permission that we're not speaking about. And I think there's not necessarily permission to lead, permission to teach or coach. And you mentioned spouse. But even our employees, I think a lot of times as leaders we go right in to coach leach, teach, train them in some way or even lead them and they're not interested in that. And then they reject us. And for sure our spouses and our kids kids do on the regular reject that input. And I think a lot of times people who, who see or strive or feel like they try to do it in a place of no agreement and a place of no, no invitation. Right. And that is a like a regular thing that I think is important to like check in on. Can I teach you? Can I coach you on this matter? And, and sometimes the answer is no or sometimes it's unconsciously no. But then by asking they say okay and then they put themselves in a mindset that's receptive to it. I don't know what your experience is with permission and that kind of thing, but we've been talking all around it as if it's assumed that we can teach or coach.

No, I think, I think there's got to be a, a level of commitment on somebody else to want it. And the timing isn't always going to be right with everybody. With a number of the groups we do we'll have as part of the pre launch of any engagement is, is ensuring some level of commitment on the other side that you want it. And it's not like the end of the world if you're not, if now is not the right time or if there's a group of 20 and a few of them are like, you know what, like I'm not fully ready to commit to this. I don't want to do this. And I, and I think we, I'd rather learn that on the front end than have people be kind of drug along even though they don't, this is not the right time for them or they don't want to be a part of it. So I think working with companies there's, there is a pre launch portion of, of that kind of permission in a sense of saying are you sure that you want this? Are you committed to this? Is now the right time to do this? And if not it's okay, but let's get that, let's like, let's work on that on the front end to ensure it is and then we go. And I, I learned that probably the hard way, Bill, is because you just kind of like assume that or I assume that. And then you realize, oh, this, this is not the right moment or the right time for, for these few people. Let's, let's, let's pick that up some other time. And for the ones who are ready and are committed, let's go with them now. And yeah, I agree with you. I, I think that permission on the front end is, makes it a much better, a much more fruitful and better relationship longer term.

Sometimes people will ask you, they'll say, hey, you know, boss, dad, you know, honey, teach me about this thing. Tell me about this. I like, fill me in, you know, and there's a clear, like opening for something. But a lot of times you see a problem and then you just go in like trying to teach somebody something and they're like, what are you doing, man? Get off. Get out of my business. Like, so true. Out of my room.

So true. Yep, I'm with you.

It's a good conversation. Ryan Hawk, learningleader.com is if you want to know more website podcast books. Learningleader.com is Ryan's website. Go to. It's been a great conversation. Thanks for coming on and talking about leaders and your experience and sharing all about that. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Bill. Yeah, it's good to, good, good to be with you, man. I appreciate you having me.

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