Victoria Labalme moved from performing arts to coaching leaders after 2001. She teaches Risk Forward, a philosophy inspired by Marcel Marceau about moving into uncertainty with openness, and Rock the Room, which uses micro-risks like improv and mime to help speakers create stronger audience experiences.
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Foreign. There it is, live again. Hello, everyone. We're talking about creativity and being at risk and leaning into changing circumstances and rocking the room. And we're rocking the room already this morning, which is great because it's a little like overcast and foggy like a proper San Francisco sun summer here, everyone. So I have a great guest for you today. My name is Bill Gallagher, scaling coach, host of the Scaling up business podcast. We've got hundreds and hundreds of shows now for you and everything to do with growing your business people, strategy, execution, cash, and you, the person who started the whole mass and what you continue to create. We want to help you work smarter, not harder. You already hustle and grind plenty of we want to up your game in a different way, help you find that way to. To do a better job. So all that more scalingcoach.com wherever you get this, iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, LinkedIn, like all that and more scalingcoach.com so I'm joined now by Victoria Labaume. And some of you may have seen or heard her before, but she's fantastic speaker. She's a best selling author, a performance strategist, she's a hall of fame speaker, and she's ready to rock our room, rock your car, your headphones, wherever you are. Listening to our podcast or watching Victoria, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, Bill. And hello, friends. Listening.
Where are you today?
I'm in New York City, Manhattan.
Oh, yeah, I've heard of that.
Yeah, you have. You're on the opposite coast.
We love New York. All right, so, you know, I said a little bit about you, but why don't you give us a little bit, like more background. I know you've got a great story about how your work moved beyond entertainment into this. So let's start there. Way in the back.
Way back. All right. Well, I began, like many of us, with a lot of different interests. It's not uncommon. Some people are very clear on their path. But for me, I was doing performing arts. I was acting and doing comedy and choreography and dance and character work, directing and producing. And I couldn't quite decide between all of them, but I kept going, even though people gave me a hard time. And we all have that. People do that to their kids, they do that to their friends. One thing led to the next. I was in a comedy club and someone asked if I would come and be a speaker because they said, what you're doing and is really speaking. You're making points about life and work, but you're doing it through an entertainment format. And I said, I don't want to be a speaker. That's cheesy. I want to be famous. And I was up for Sex and the City, and I'd been on commercials, and I'd done TV and films with Harvey Keitel and Robert De Niro, this documentary. So I was on my way to fame. I'd been picked up by a Hollywood manager, and suddenly I witnessed 911 from my window. And two days later, my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And suddenly that track to fame didn't seem as important as. And that's the question we all asked that day. Right? How can I help?
I laugh. We're. We're now past it enough. Right? But you rush through 911 and pancreatic cancer with your mom. Those are like heavy duty things, right? They're not funny things. I'm laughing at us now.
I know, but it was 48 hours of. Of two tragedies back to back, and. And I thought, wow, well, how can I help? And I went back to the people who suggested I'd be a speaker, and I said, I'm happy to contribute. They'd asked if I would speak to speakers on telling stories, being more animated, making your point, connecting with an audience, and one thing led to the next, and suddenly I was speaking around the world, coaching speakers and executives and entrepreneurs on how they present on camera and on stage. And here I am today.
Yeah. And, you know, that's an interesting thing. We're going to talk a little bit about that as well as we get into it. But a ton of people now have had to get good on camera. And I'm kind of surprised at, like, I think many people leveled up their game and, like, our studio got better, my camera's light, all that kind of thing got a lot better during the pandemic, and it was already a little bit above average. But every CEO, exec manager who moved to remote work, to virtual work started to think about that. And. And I think most leveled up their game. But then there's like, what do you say? How do you be with people? How do you connect? That is not just addressed by a better microphone.
Well, you're 100% correct there, because a lot of people start to focus on the tech, you know, and there's an important aspect to the tech. But no matter how much tech you have, if you're not great, if you suck, you know, if you're. If you're flat and boring and unengaging, doesn't matter how well you're lit. So it's really about how you can rock the room regardless of what you're given.
Yeah. So I. And that's a good. That's a good place to start about being flat. I mean, you know, people ask me, oh, what's your camera? How do I level? I'm like, you don't need to focus so much on your camera. Just turn around and put the window in front of you instead of behind you so that I have light on your face.
Sure. Windows great. Natural light is fantastic.
Yeah. And then I remember years ago, I was getting coached as a speaker and I had had, like, a breakthrough, and it became much more expressive, except I was really kind of playing the same note again and again, and I was, like, very moved. And I did a lot of crying in front of people. It was powerful. Right. Like, and I still do sometimes. Often. Uh, but it. But it was like one note, and my coach is like, is this all we got from you?
Yeah.
Like, be powerful, moved, like profound. Is there anything else? Are. Do you. You have anything you like to do? Is there anything you consider fun and. And learning to, like, get the whole range of it, like, to be funny, to laugh, to cry, like the. You know, that whole thing. But, like, take the lid off that self expression.
Right. Well, what's really interesting is that people are generally far more animated in real life. The moment they get on camera, they dim it down and. Exactly. For anyone who's just listening versus viewing, Bill just froze and made himself very stiff in front of the camera, which is what people do. There are a lot of bad coaches out there whose work I have to undo because. And anyone listening, if you've ever had a coach who makes you feel less yourself, that's not a good coach. Because a lot of coaches will say, stand like this, gesture like this, and all of a sudden someone's turned into a puppet. And what my whole approach and Rock the Room is about is freeing people so that they can actually be who they really are. And people come out of the program and they go, oh, my God, I feel so much more free. I didn't realize I could gesture or talk quickly. Because they've been told by the coach to always talk like this. And who does that? We want authenticity more than anything.
Yeah. Yeah. I've been through a lot of coaching and training from various folks from acting performing backgrounds who have very specific things. Stand with your feet like this, hold your arms like that, do these things. And you see people try to do them. And instead of, like, freeing up their own Hips and arms and hands and finding their own vibe, they start trying to do somebody else. And it's awkward.
100. And, you know, the audience is smart. We can telephony speaker immediately, even if we've never met them before. We see something's. Something's off there. That's not normal. And, you know, I. I tell this joke a lot, but you'll. People will come into my studio or virtually now, and they'll go, okay, okay, watch me, Victoria. Okay, I'm gonna stand like this. Wait, okay, hold on. Adjuster like this. I'm gonna step here. And I go, what. What you doing there? And they say, well, you know, I was told by so and so coach that I had to stand like this and gesture like that. I say, well, how does it feel? And they'll say, it feels weird. And I go, well, yeah, it looks weird. Like, don't do that. Come from within. Which is, by the way, the first place we start with Rock the Room is to start from within. Because when you're coming from within, it's like a current, a current of energy, a current of an electrical wire. And then the truth comes out. And the gestures will most of the time be perfect because it's authentic. It's congruent with your messaging. And if you're excited, your voice is going to change. So I'm never for people having their speech written for them because it's not their voice, it's not their excitement. It's someone else's version of what they think that person should say.
It's an interesting thing. So let's talk about what you're seeing now and tell some stories. What are you seeing from entrepreneurs and leaders that is interesting to you? What's the pain point that you're addressing in your work?
Right. Well, I have two parts to what I do. One of them is called Risk Forward, and that was the book. And that's a whole series of materials, keynotes and workshops. And then there's Rock the room. Yes. Oh, there it is. He's just put this up on the screen. It says riskforward.com pod as in podcast. So riskforward.com pod there you can download some free chapters there you can also see an interview with my husband, who is Frank Oz, the person who created Yoda and the Muppets with Jim Henson. And so he interviewed me about the book and told some of his own stories about Yoda's famous line and what Orson Welles says after he was in the Muppet Movie. So that's a freebie for you, what I'm talking about in both Risk Forward and Rock the Room is the expression of oneself. Risk four is about expressing oneself as a leader in business and in life creatively. And Rock the Room is about expressing oneself in business on stage, on camera. So it's, how do we take what's within? And what I'm seeing right now, first off to talk about challenges, is we're still in a phase of unknown. Especially we're sort of through this pandemic confusion. It's back, but we've kind of learned how to manage that. But now we've got political issues, we've got global issues. So I say it's the planet, the pandemic and the politics, the three Ps. And what I'm finding is people are afraid, but they don't want to admit it. Leaders are afraid and their teams are afraid. They're not sure where things are going, but they're afraid to admit it. Question is, how do we. How do we express that effectively? How do we embrace, as I say, how do we embrace that unknown? And I think it begins with acknowledging where people are at. Acknowledging, yeah, this is a funky time. And then giving them something exciting to move towards. Yeah.
It'd be useful for you to share about what does it mean to Risk Forward? Where does that come from? Because I think what you say is really interesting. I know a lot of people who are like, well, this is going on, but I'm not going to talk about that because I refuse to acknowledge that I'm not playing that game, like some trend or movement or thing that's going on. There is not real if we don't acknowledge it.
Right. Well, it's so true. And the pain point I also want to address on that note, and this is where Risk Forward did come about, is I would go to these events with entrepreneurs, you know, these masterminds. Right, These retreats. And the same thing with the corporate market. I would go as a keynote speaker and I would hear these leaders talk to their teams and everyone was saying the same thing, which is, you've got to be clear, you got to have a goal. If you don't know where you're going, you'll never get there. And there was this huge pressure for people to always be clear and always have a set of goals and that you were kind of a loser if you didn't, that it was problematic. And for me, there were times when I wasn't sure what I was doing in my life, what was next. I was evaluating and I Learned early on that that was not a positive position for people to see me in. Like, people would look at me as if I had an issue, like I was a leper, like, oh, geez, you got to figure that out. And yet so many people would quietly, confidentially pull me aside and go, yeah, I'm not sure either, or, I'm not sure what's next. But they were afraid to admit it publicly that they were unclear. And so I thought, I need to address this because I believe from my background in the arts, I know it to be true, that it's in the not knowing. It's in those fertile, uncertain periods that we create some of our best work. It's where we innovate from. And as long as we're charging forward, we're not always innovating. So it's, how do we pick a goal? How do we pick a clear path that's true to us, to our business? I can tell you story after story about executives and entrepreneurs who set these goals for themselves just because they wanted to look like they were clear and they went way off course. We all know people like that, right? So that's what it was.
Unusually fixated on a particular goal, I think. Like, so we talked a lot in the beginning of the pandemic about dealing with a crisis. There's times when a crisis is so obvious, right? 9, 11 happened. I sat up in my bed on the west coast and I went, oh, crap. Everything is about to change, and this is not normal. And then you also had your mother get sick. And I think there are times where it's really obvious, like, the pandemic just shut us down. I'd been in eight countries in the few weeks leading up to the pandemic shutdown. And then I was at home, right? Like, most of us were in some form or another. And, like, in those moments, it's really clear, okay, there's something to deal with, something to lean into. And some of us hope, like, well, I'm just going to wait till this blows over. But as we look at the entrepreneurs that were successful and that did a lot in that timeframe, they didn't wait till it to blow over or hang on. They leaned into something and they looked at what was going on. And, you know, I'm a surfer, a sailor, that kind of thing, and a dancer. And I. I like to think about, like, what's happening here, like, how do I go with this? You may not like it, right? But there's. Then comes all those sweet moments and the breakthroughs and the things like that that happen.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But the key in the leaning in is to lean in from an authentic place. You know, there was a lot of judgment going around during the pandemic, like, are you making the most of this time or are you sitting around watching netf? You know, I thought, well, I watched.
A lot of Netflix, but I also made the most of the time.
Well, exactly. They're not mutually exclusive. But also what's wrong with watching Netflix? You could be percolating on some amazing idea for your next series that you're going to blend with your business. Who knows? And so the kind of judgment that I found so present was really unfortunate.
Yeah. So I. So that time was really clear. Now we're in a new time, as you pointed out. Right. Like I had, I was with one of our client companies just a week or two ago and they'd had a company event and it seemed like, you know, things were in a different place and it was an outdoor event and half the people then got Covid afterwards and there was a significant. Half the company gets Covid. And then there's a significant impact on the work for a little bit. But especially with like all from one company versus a couple here and there. Right. There was a substantial impairment to stuff. Stuff and feeling bad. And a lot of people are having that now. And it's a fairly minor thing, but we also know one of our dear friends, young and healthy, was exposed to Covid and now is severely impacted with a long term thing. Right. From the event that you were at with Lori, with my wife Lori recently. So we're in a weird time. Right. And then there's a recession looming and what does it all mean? And there's instability in, in Europe and, and that has an effect around the world. And sure, there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff going on.
Yeah, yeah. One of the things on that note that I'm hearing from a lot of my clients, I do these keynotes, as I mentioned, and before a keynote I'll do an interview with the team or the key stakeholders and I'll ask which issues are up. I have a deep questionnaire. And either in the questionnaire or on the call, often what comes out is this need for compassion, for care, for leading from a place of empathy. Because people are anxious, they're weary, they're worn out. We've got this remote workforce. So people are feeling isolated. This is all still going on. So I think just coming from a place of understanding instead of just this rah, rah Charge. Charge is essential.
I like what you said about, like, being with the whole range of it. Right. There's a. Like being with the not knowing, being with the uncertainty, being with the lack of clarity, because there is creativity that can come from that. At some point, you may get clear about something and then charge into it.
Yeah, yeah. And. And. And that's actually where the risk forward theme was born. I had studied years ago with the legendary mime Marcel Marceau. No jokes, please. He was extraordinary. You know, he spoke five languages. He was a poet, he was a painter. He knew more about history than anyone I'd ever met. He's just a worldly person.
Yeah.
He had this type of movement that he taught us when he was training us, which he called risk. And he would show us, you know, weight forward. You'd put your left or right foot forward and your weight over it, but so much so that it was almost as if your body was like the sail of a boat, arched open with the wind. And he called this position Riscavant, which was to. In English, the translation, loosely, would be risk forward. And as I say in the book and in the stage performances, I came to see that really as a philosophy for life and work. How do we go forward? A little off balance, like, heart open like a snail into that unknown. And so that. That myth that we always need to be clear, that we always need to be secure, you know, about our direction is really unproductive. And the myth is that great companies and creative endeavors were always clear. And we know, you know, from all your work. I know. And anyone listening in the world of entrepreneurship and leadership knows, most of the time, we're figuring it out. When we're really innovating, we're figuring out as we go that's risking forward.
The thing I hear there is, like, there's being, like, planted and immovable and steady and rock solid, and then there's that, like, because in the risk for. In the physical position, you're still balanced, but you're teetering on the edge of you're being in that place of where you are at risk, where you're just right at the edge of the balance. And. And then you have to really move with whatever's going on.
Yeah, exactly. And. And, you know, we all have times in our life when we've been on that edge, and that is the fertile ground, you know, that's where things are alive. And any creative artist will tell you, go towards the things that make you a little off balance, that make you a little scared. 1 of 1 of the greatest keynotes I heard from an executive who was on stage before me was the head of New York Life Insurance. And he was explaining to his team, the audience, that he. We didn't know where we were going next in the sense of the economy. He said, look, I don't know what's ahead, but there are likely three scenarios. And he had three different graphs. He goes this way, and he explained what that would mean to the company. It could go this way or it could go this way. And it was so brilliant because he was saying, I don't know, but here's what it could be. And let's look at the scenarios. And I rarely see that.
You know, I think it's a really great thing to underscore because I have a lot of people, clients, friends, family, etcetera, who are like, this is the way it's going to be. And I'm like, how do you know?
Right?
Nobody said tomorrow. Well, maybe somebody said tomorrow that we're going to knock down those towers, but for the most part, we don't really have any idea what's about to happen. There were. It was a whole country of people who were sure that Putin wasn't going to invade, but he did. They're like, oh, it's gonna be fine. This is just plaster and posturing. And then he did. And that's a serious. I mean, like, people have been murdered, tortured, etc. Horrific. Horrific, right. And for whatever it is, the pandemic, the economy, the whatever, if you're really sure of something, then you leave your. You. You kind of wipe out for yourself all of the other possibilities and the chance to deal with them if you get too certain of anything.
I couldn't agree with you more. And that is the problem with, you know, I say don't let your goals get in the way of your vision. Right? And there's a line in the book, goal setting can lead you astray, because it really can, then you're not open to those possibilities. You know, you want to move forward. I call it a through line. Right. That's from my background, that that driving force, that. And that through line is like a river. It can twist and turn. Your values are the same and, you know, your intentions are the same, but the actual goals and the path may shift based on any given incident. And you're 100% right. I think that philosophy, that approach of we don't know what's next is actually one that makes us come alive because it's not guaranteed, and it makes us so present. Like as I say to my friends, Today could be September 10th, meaning tomorrow could be 9, 11. The equivalent of. So how would you behave if today was the day before?
Yeah. What would you. Yeah, well, I. So one of our past, one of our friends and past guests a couple times on the show is Brian Scudamore. And Brian is kind of famous for creating these great pictures of the future, rich, vivid pictures. And then he's like, I don't know exactly how we're get there. I have some ideas, but we're going to figure it out together because the exact path and what it really looks like in the end is unknown. But we can imagine something and then drive towards it. Right?
A thousand. Yeah. It's something that I teach with Risk Forward and Rock the Room when I work with a client. And we're, we're saying, you know, what do we want the experience to be like? That's the main tenant of Rock the Room is to create an experience for your audience. Because we often think as a speaker or a leader, what's the information I need to convey? Whereas what you really want to be thinking of is how do I create an experience for my audience of 1 or 1000 or 1 million that takes that information and turns it into something engaging for them. And so we don't know exactly how that's going to happen yet, but we know that's we're aiming for. And then we start looking at what assets we have, what's organic to that person, which stories, videos, images and details we want to share. That's what we call the prism effect, the whole prison, the full spectrum to create that experience. And that's a collaborative venture.
So, yeah, I want to share.
Yeah, it's on my mind. I have to. I have to demonstrate for anyone watching. And then, Bill, maybe you can narrate what you're seeing for anyone who's simply listening. So when I signed the contract for my book Risk Forward with Hay House, I said I want this book to be highly visual. I didn't know how I was going to get there. Totally. But I said, it's going to be fun book.
By the way, this is not your ordinary BS book. Like, go read this book. Super playful, color coordinated.
Yes. I'm flipping the pages every, every chapter. It's written for the add person because the chapters are one and a half, one and a half pages, maybe a half a page long. And you can read the book in any order. You don't have front to back. You can flip around. But when I created this, and I designed it and I chose the colors and the layout. I wasn't 100% sure how I was going to get there, but I knew the vision was going to be something creative and different. And then we figured it out.
Yeah, it's really great. Like, this idea of something that you can play with and interact with is kind of relative to what we talk about. When I think about a talk. Right. Whether it's something that I'm going to give or a workshop for that matter. Same thing, actually. Or something one of our CEOs or other leaders is doing, I tend to think about, like, what's the end state for the participants? Right. What is. How do I want them left? What information? Not for sure. What information do I want them to have? But, like, what place do I want them left? In what state? And then the agenda is how we're going to get there. So how do I hook them in the beginning? What's the journey we take them on to build the stuff to get to that end state?
You're thinking, exactly right. That's. That's very much in line with what I teach. I call it kdf. No do feel K no do D feel. So I say, what's the kdf? What's the information you want to convey? But like we just said, how do you want them to feel and what do you want them to do? And we forget those so often.
Yeah, the, the, the feeling and the doing are often left out and too much focus just on the information and not what people are going to. With.
Yeah.
How you want them to feel through the whole thing.
Yeah. And that's, that's true for the whole event. Like you'll have. I go to all kinds of, of conferences and sometimes people open with logistics. Like they will literally open the conference with logistics or they'll close the conference with logistics. Like, oh, it's so great to have you all here. We've got some chairs in the back. And so here's the agenda. And, and I think, are you kidding me? That's the opening. Like, there's, you know, to repeat myself here. My background is the arts. There's no performing art that doesn't think carefully about the first few moments, whether it's a rock concert or a comedy act or a movie or a play. Like, the opening's essential and people blow it all the time.
Yeah. I have people in our meetings all the time. We were like, okay, we're going to really create a new future for this company. We're going to reset because we're halfway through the year, whatever it is. And so we're going to. We'll meet in our conference room at, like, XYZ time. I'm like, oh, no, you've already failed. Yeah, like, we're going to get out. It's going to be an inspiring location, a place for us to reflect, to move around, you know, like.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we got to sell the experience. And it's the same thing with the ending. Yeah, go ahead. Right.
Music, smells, visuals, all the feeling of. Of the place and the range of emotion, the connection of human beings.
Yeah.
So I. This may take us in a whole weird direction, but you shared some things that I don't know all about that I am curious about. The first one is somebody named Remy who asked a question that was transformational. Maybe you can tell who Remy is and what the question was and. Huh.
So this is a guy no longer alive named Remy Charlep and spelled C, H, A, R, L, I, P. Charlep was a mentor of mine. I had gone to study with him. He'd written children's books. He was a performer, director, a dancer, all of the range of arts that I so loved. And we got to this workshop, and we've all been in these workshops where you have to introduce yourself, right? Or the meeting. Like, everyone go around the room and introduce themselves, and people start to panic, like, what's my elevator speech? And how do I sound in person without bragging? And you can feel the tension. No one's listening to anyone else because they're just rehearsing their line in their head. And he looks around, he goes, now I'm not going to have you talk about what you've done. Rather, when it comes to your turn, just say what interests you now. And it was so freeing because we often rely on our pasts which hold us back. Not just our failures, but our successes, too, because we feel we have to be in line with what we've done before. And suddenly there was no judgment because we had no idea who was who and who done what. It was just, hey, I'm interested in. And it was a step forward, it was a risk forward, if you will, into the future. And that's all that mattered is what interests you now? And so this is one of the key elements. I have four questions in the book to help you risk forward and to help you find your way when you're not sure what's next. And one of them, of the four, is that what interests you now?
That's a really great, you know, around all business leader gatherings of any kind, networking company meeting, trade show, industry event, whatever. Who are you? What's your job, what's your company? That kind of thing. But what interests you now is really different and open. Like it could be what interests you now. I like it really open. Like, let somebody say something personal in there. Oh, I'm really obsessed with, you know, yeah, a new sport. I'm really obsessed with my kid. Or like that.
Right, right. And, you know, we all go through phases where we're fascinated by something. And a lot of the time, unfortunately, is we don't allow ourselves to go there because we wanted back to our conversation earlier about goals and staying on that path. And we, oh, I got, I can't do that. Whereas that could be what I call the crimson star, which could be that. That very thing, that interest, that light, that sort of flickering crimson star. And you're like, I don't know what that is, but you feel like going towards it. And it may not be your ultimate destination, but is absolutely there to pull you to the next opportunity or next insight. And when we ignore it and deny ourselves moving towards it, risking forward towards it, we remove a real possibility from our lives. Like, case in point is, when I went to study mime, people gave me such a hard time. They're like, are you going to be a mime? What are you going to do with that? How are you going to make money? And I didn't know.
But luckily, a huge market in the.
United States, not exactly a huge market, but in doing that, who would have thought that it would become an analogy? When I teach insurance companies and entrepreneurs and executives and authors, I use mime all the time as an analogy to help them with their body language, to tell stories. It's not that I'm a mime, but it became a key differentiator in my work. It added a few zeros to my fee, if you will, because all of a sudden. So who would have thought? And so when I see parents say to their kids, oh, you can't do that. There's no future in. Hurts my soul. Because I think that's their crimson star. That's their risk forward, you know, and, and, and we never know until we have the courage to step into that.
You know, I was sitting on a plane the other day from, from the east coast back to the west coast, and there was a woman sitting on next to me and, and the court. She was pretty chatty and, and of course, she tells me about her daughter. And her daughter's really interested in music. And she's gotten several degrees now in music. And they've been supporting their daughter, but she's like, but we both know that it'll never amount to anything. And I was like, well, I happen to have a daughter who's involved in music and who's doing really cool things, and I am really impressed. And she's going to do all kinds of great things, and she already has. And I'm like, why would you come from that place? There are all kinds of people making all kinds of money in all parts of music, and she just has to find her place in all of that, where her unique skills and passions are going to thrive and that kind of thing. But why would you decide we're doing this for a while, but it's never going to amount to anything. That's so defeatist. That's so, like, so shut down to all possibility. It was really kind of upsetting to me. So I said, look, I. If you want to feel that way, that's great, but I don't think it has to be. And she's like, really? And I said, yeah. My daughter's been involved in music and she's worked with this person, that person, that person. She's had some hard things along the way, and we've helped her at different times and that kind of thing, and we really, really support her and we think she's going to be awesome and she's brilliant and talented and all that. And I'm sure your daughter is too, in some way. And who's to say? And I have a friend that I worked with many years ago when I was a dj, and then he went on and made a whole career in music. And there were many moments along the way where he got discouraged and he wanted to quit up. And he asked me about changing his career, as I had, and I said, who's to say you can't. And he's had a great career. Now he's retired and doing a whole next thing and. Yeah, all kinds of pathways, right?
Exactly. And it can be that, like you said. I mean, my husband, Frank Oz, who I was talking about when he was in high school doing puppets because he did small puppet shows, people would say he tells the story of a. Of a football player, you know, the cool football player, saying, what are you ever going to do wiggling puppets? How are you ever going to make a living doing that now? Right? But it's also like Ryan Levesque. Some of you listening may know who he is. Created a program called Ask the Ask Method. It's a company. And he is a client of mine in Rock the Room. And I was talking about distinguishing your work as a speaker and creating an experience. What we said earlier, Bill and I asked him, what's this outside passion that you have? And he loves Lego, like, he loves lego. He's obsessed, right? And he plays with his kids. He's a LEGO master. And I said, let's weave that into your keynote speaking and into your events, your masterminds. At first he was suspicious because he didn't, you know, he teaches marketing. He didn't know if it would reduce his credibility, but he trusted me. It became stories, props. He has a stage set with Lego pieces. He gives it away as gifts. It became integral to his brand. So whether it's this woman's daughter, the one on the plane, who knows how music will play into her career, whether it is her career or it's a supporting element in her career, we don't know. But it's there for a reason. It's the Crimson Star.
I, you know, so personally, right? And I think this applies to all of us. Very early on, I was a DJ and I helped promote shows and I did all kinds of things around music. And then I left it and I went into business. But today, like, music features in my work a lot. I also was a skateboarder. I first started on a skateboard when I was nine months old. And then I rode skateboards and parks and ramps and things like that. And. And then I forgot about it for a while until I saw Tony Hawk skate in his 50s. And I'm like, oh, I could do that shit. I did that once. And now there's a skateboard under my desk that I balance on play with all the time. And I surfed as a kid, and I'm obsessed with this new thing, wing foil surfing today. And I've been a sailor my life. And I bring all that stuff into that unique kind of expression of who I am and what I do to not be the same boring, gray, generic, dumbed down, suppressed whatever. And some people hate it, right? Some people are like, that's weird. Why are you doing that? And other people are like, you're my man, and. Right. You, like, want to find that place where you are free and at home and keep exploring that stuff, remembering who you are and what you loved.
Yeah, exactly. And people who are saying, I don't like it. That's not your audience.
Exactly.
And as we all, as we all know, good marketing attracts your audience and repels the people who Are not.
And repels. Right. And some people think that they want and then they're like, oh, yeah, we don't like this so much. This is not a place we're comfortable. But. And then. And then not being. Being dead. Right. One of my values is never finished. And it's the idea of always being at work on developing yourself. So I do regular kinds of things and sometimes more than others. But I've done vocal improv. Right. Where you just make sounds and like, that frees me up to be a little sillier, a little more expressive. I've done stand up comedy, I've done dance training, I've done movement training. Like all these kinds of things give you a range and can expand you. It doesn't mean that you're going to be that forever necessarily, but it'll inform and incorporate. Right?
Sure. I call those micro risks too. So, you know, risk forward doesn't always mean, like, go for those big, big movements. You know, I talk in the book about, you know, a micro risk because you never know, you know, maybe you just take that improv class and that's a micro risk. And people get so scared. And by the way, you know, this whole approach of go big or go home, I think really counterproductive because people go, well, if I'm not going to be an improv expert, why should I take an improv class? Or, you know, learn about skateboarding or instead of going, well, just do a micro. And you don't have to tell the world, you don't have to announce it, that whole thing. Tell everyone your goals. Just watch a video online, take a little class, try it for 10 minutes, do a micro risk and see where it leads and see if it excites you and if it does some of.
Those things that are most uncomfortable. Right. The two most terrifying things that I've done were the vocal improv and the comedy. I did a set at Caroline's in New York and that's one of the most terrifying things that I've ever done. I prepared it for weeks. I got a coach, I worked on my delivery and my whole show and like that kind of thing. And I went and did, you know, supposed to be 15 minutes, went a little bit long, but that was five zero. No, no, 15. 15.
Oh, I was gonna say that's a long set. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
My first show, I was terrifying. Like, I hurt myself, I drank, I like did all kinds of things to try to get over the thing, and I was terrible. And then in the end it went okay and People laughed, and I didn't freeze or screw the pooch or anything like that. But then I start to notice, and I'm not sure that I'll go on and become a standup comic, but being free to make some jokes and to be playful with people and stuff like that then has elevated some of my other stuff. I can have a little more fun with it. And the vocal improv thing, absolutely terrifying. They're like, okay, we're going to go around. You're going to make some noises, you're going to add some things. And I listen to some people with great training make beautiful sounds, like unscripted and playing. And as I thought about it, I'm like, you know, I'd rather take my clothes off right now than open my mouth and make noises. I was absolutely terrifying. People are going around and just making weird sounds. And I was like, wow, I don't know why. And I think it's because, like, I have so much invested in looking, acting, and sounding cool, at least in my own mind, that the idea of doing something where I'm not good at it, and I'm like, is.
Is truly terrifying, a thousand percent. And you're very honest and humble to acknowledge that. Yeah, people don't like to look bad. And often the higher we go, the more we feel we have to be a certain. Here's my secret philosophy. And it comes out when I work with people, and it comes out in the whole rock the room pantheon, because people are often have an opposite. So, like, the most controlled person is, like, secretly kind of crazy and wild and they're afraid to show it. Right. Or when I do corporate events, it's like, the general counsel, the most puckered, uptight individual is the wild one. Secretly. And I see it come out when I do certain experiences. I used to do something where, when I was doing live workshops, if someone was caught speaking in the back of the room or having a side conversation, they would have to get up in front of the room and dance. And it was hysterical. And so I would. It was one event, and there was. The general counsel was in the back whispering to, I don't know, the vp. And I turned to the room and I said, am I mistaken? Because the room would have to vote or, you know, are George and Bill having a side conversation? And everyone's like, yeah, you guys have to dance. And they got up there, and this general counsel was. Is wild on the dance floor. And so my point here is, how do we let out the part of ourselves in an appropriate way that People would never expect. And that.
Keep your pants on around the business place.
Thank you very much. Yes. In an appropriate way. But the audience is craving that. And it's like that for anyone listening who's a parent. It's like your kids are dying for you to risk forward and let out that part of yourself. Like, get that trombone out of the closet. Get that guitar out. Stop trying to be, like, controlled and be who you are. And if they're teens, they'll be embarrassed by you, but they're secretly proud. They want you to be who you are. Yeah, they're inspired by it.
All right, so mental health, flower arrangement.
That'S a cue because. Yeah. Well, this goes back to taking a part of. Of your passion or your past and bringing it into your presentation. So whether it's Ryan Levesque bringing in Lego as a prop or a story, an analogy or as a gift or a stage set, the same thing is true with this flower arrangement. So one of my clients, her name is Kathy pike, she is the head of mental health at Columbia University. And she was coaching with me and I said, what's an outside passion that you have and how can you bring it in to your speech on mental health? And she said, well, I love ikebana, which is Japanese flower arranged. And I said, well, let's bring that in in some form. And she said, oh, my gosh, there's no correlation between ikebana and mental health. And I said, no, no, let's work with it. So she was in a rock the Room workshop, and we worked through it. Long story short, what she came up with, and she did this, and I'll tell the story of her doing it, and I'll reveal what the connection is, is she came out on stage in front of a thousand mental health professional psychiatrists, psychologists, at the Global Mental Health Summit in London. She was the opening speaker. She arrived on stage, there was a table, she had branches and flowers and a bowl, and she started to create a flower arrangement. That was the opening of her speech. And the audience is watching because they think, all right, she's either lost her mind or she's forgotten where she is. And while she was doing it, she was saying, here's how ikebana works. And then she finished it. She said, what makes the flower arrangement is not just the branches and the buds, it's the negative space. And mental health is the negative space in the landscape of the health conversation that we so often don't address. But without it, we don't have health. The society will not hold the flower Arrangement will not hold without negative space. That's what makes it the sculptural shape it is. And that negative space of mental health is essential, meaning it's the part we don't see. But it's so, so critical. Anyway, she was written up in journals. People said it was the best speech of the summit. She was asked to speak elsewhere. And so that risk forward, which was scary because it was out there for that type of community, paid off dividends. And so that is it. How do we take a part of our past, the passion that we have that seems like an outside element, whether it's skateboarding or improv in your case, or Lego or ikebana, and bring it in to our conversations, our speeches, our videos, to make a point and to really engage an audience and rock the room.
Rock the room. I love doing something unique, something different, weaving in something different, figuring out how to tell a story about it. Like to make this whole scaling up process more fun for people. But there are moments that are really not fun, Right. And so I like to use sailing and surfing metaphors and things like that. Right. But there's also the wipeout, right. There's a time that you get knocked over. And I've opened talks to entrepreneurs talking about how a bank tried to shut me down. And that can be a fairly technical conversation about how you deal with and negotiate it. But. But I focused on the terror. I felt that they were going to take my house and that my family would collapse in the process. Right. And that's the kind of thing where they were like, oh, crap. And then they started to listen and I opened another one about dealing with uncertainty and I talked about the decline and passing of my father. Right. And then feeling about, how do you be a leader in a time when you don't want to be a leader and in a thing that you don't want to manage, Right. Like, how do you deal with that? How do you find your inspiration and find the power and the mojo to bring your best to bear on something? Right. And I think all of those things where you take a risk, where you bring in something unusual, unexpected, are powerful. And it's both sides of what you've been talking with us about, about, like being in the place of unknowing and uncertainty and dealing with something difficult or unwanted and maybe wishing it was all settled, but it isn't. And then also, like, how to be powerful in those moments and show up. And those are both key concerns of leaders on a regular basis.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Links up for you. So Rock the Room Slash Pod is up there on the crawl. We'll put it in the show notes as well. And riskforward.com pod are the two links both with different resources around each of these related but distinct ideas.
Yeah. And the resources are free right now. They're really good. I have to say, my team and I spent a lot of time going what would be valuable? What really would be valuable? And so on the riskforward.com podcast pod or dot com forward slash pod is free chapter so you can check out the book without buying it. It's cool, colorful, creative. And then an interview with Frank Oz where he shares, you know, we learned about indecision or the Orson Welles story or making Yoda or it's just incredible. And then rocktheroom.com forward/pod has a full teaching keynote on how to Rock the room and that's up there for free right now. We're probably going to sell it at some point, but right now it's free. So it's good. It's you'll. It's free and it's loaded with value.
Awesome, awesome, awesome. So some other shout outs and some notes if you want some help with something we talked about today or want to get in touch with us, if we can help you find a coach in your area or who's right for you and your vibe info scalingcoach.com is a good email for us. Info@scalingcoach.com our website is scalingcoach.com and of course you can find our shows wherever you found this one. So we post them on LinkedIn, they're all up on YouTube, they're in the Facebook group, they are on post on Twitter and the whole back catalog of them is at itunes and audio form and so like everywhere you want and if you like it, if you subscribe to them, you'll get them all the time. If you want to find out more or less anything about us, you'll go to scalingcoach.com like that. So also, big shout to the folks at Podfly Productions who get our show out every week. Albert Burge, Anna Kudina, Tim McGowan and the rest of the folks. And I want to Mitchell in the background there getting our show ready. We can see her. You can't. And queuing up our titles and getting our guests ready and our show out and all that kind of thing. And a big shout out to Vern Harnish who created the whole Scaling up framework that we use that core to our business and the original Rockefeller habits. Thanks again everyone for watching, for listening. We'll talk to you again next time. Keep scaling up.
