21. Bob Moesta: Spotting Non-Consumption

Hi, my name is Katie Zambergen and I'm the community manager at the Forum for Growth and Innovation at the Harvard Business School. Here this afternoon with Bob Mesta, who's the president and CEO of the Rewired Group and one of the pioneers of the jobs to be done theory. The topic of our discussion today is tips for targeting non consumption. And I thought I'd start us off with a little quote from the innovator solution, which is because the effectiveness of any strategy is contingent on the circumstance, senior executives need to look to the horizon, which is often at the low end of the market or in non consumption, for evidence that the basis of competition is changing. And in terms of the toolkit for a successful enterprise, spotting non consumption falls under the theory of jobs to be done. So Bob, we were wondering if you could talk to us a bit today about how do we train ourselves to spot non consumption and what advice would you give to our listeners and why is it so hard to find it?

So non consumption is that basic premise of where people want to do something but they can't. And so it's almost like there's a lot of energy built up to say, gosh, I got to do this, I got to do this. But there's some either anxiety or habit force or there's just not enough force, forward force to basically have them choose or they don't have access. There's a whole bunch of kind of logistical things as well. But what I would say is that from a non consumption perspective, it's really about finding out where people want to do something but they can't. And so I have a couple of standard answers there. One is like hearing aids, right? The average person basically recognizes that they have a hearing loss of some sort and it takes them seven years to, to get to a hearing aid. And so this whole notion of like they don't want it, they're embarrassed to have it, they don't think they need it, it's very expensive, it's all these different things and then bam, they buy it. But it's a seven year long process. And so to me it's like, how many people want hearing aids or need hearing aids but actually don't actually get them? And so this is where I think Bose has come out with a new product called Hearphones. And their notion is like, well, people don't want to admit they need glasses, so they go to Rite Aid and they buy cheaters, they buy the plus two or plus two and a half kind of glasses. So to me it's like, how many people want hearing aids or needs hearing aids but don't want to spend the 3, 4 grand to do it? Well, Bose created this thing, earphones that is $399. And it literally uses their noise canceling technology in reverse to actually amplify everything around you. And it uses a very, very low end kind of platform that they already have that they just basically built into an app. And so all of a sudden you can actually have hearing aids that are actually amazing to be better. I have hearing aids myself and they're actually better than my hearing aids that I have and they're actually much more helpful. And so part of this is being able to spot it back to your point about how difficult it is. Most people don't blame products. And when people and companies go look for it, they look for people looking for where people are complaining about their products. But the reality is most people blame themselves. And so what happens is you have to really be able to understand two things. Where people struggle and where the struggle is big enough, and two, where they want to make progress but they necessarily can't. And so this is actually a bigger kind of view into people's lives or your best customers and saying where do they want to do something but they can't. So that's typically where we start. And so it's a very different kind of research than what most people do, which is around their product and tell me about the best hearing aid you ever had. And these are people who never had hearing aids at all. So it's very, very different research for most companies to go after and try to look for non consumption.

So if you're looking for the struggling moment, is that something that you're looking for in yourself? And also in terms of is it consumer behavior or what they're telling you through surveys?

So there's a combination of places. One is you'll see it in like if you ask about the three things that you hate about your current phone, for example, there's struggling moments there, but they're not doing anything about it. And it's like they blame themselves, like, yeah, I just can't remember my passwords. And so it's those things where they blame themselves to say, like, well, no, I have a password. They don't even think of buying a password app that will remember all their passwords. And the moment they get it, like, oh, okay. And so part of this is being able to realize like, where do people. And again, it doesn't have enough energy for them to go look for something they don't even know something exists. And so part of this is being able to understand what are they struggling with, how do we actually reframe it and then how do we actually then make them get in their way so they know that it's possible. So it's not just finding non consumption, it's then activating non consumption that is equally as hard.

Okay, so it's a process.

It's a process. It's a process like anything else. But the reality is the low end of the market is where basically you can actually use technology and to be honest, take second, I'll say recycle technology to go to the low end of the market because you're competing with nothing. It's like, I have no hearing aids, so this is better than no hearing aids. Same thing.

In terms of other tips, what about this idea of recognizing over engineered products?

So in a lot of cases, I always say that most people say they didn't buy a product because of price, but my belief is that typically it's that they only wanted to do three of the 10 things that you engineered it to do. And so when people are arguing about price, it typically means that you've over engineered it and that there's opportunity to actually come in with a lower end product or where they have 20 features but they only use two. And so part of this is being able to look at again how people look at their product, look at kind of their situation and what else they can use it for.

Another tip that I've heard, which I'm curious to learn more about, is looking for petty law breaking or law bending. Does that resonate?

Yeah. So one of the things that Faso and I kind of and Karen Dillon, we're talking one day, I always think of most innovation happens at the fringes. And so it's kind of figuring out where are the fringes of not only behavior, but fringes of where people are willing to be criminal about it. So think of the people at the airport trying to give you a ride. At some point they're willing to get caught. So the notion of the low end of the of the crime sign is literally where people are willing to kind of figure out how to hack that around. And so my thing is Uber really is a way in which kind of hacking that notion of how do I actually get somebody to come pick me up at the airport even though I don't want to get a taxi. Right. And so it's that kind of thing. So to me it's like looking where are the petty crimes. And can I actually figure out how to legitimize the petty crimes?

Right, yeah, that makes sense. And what about this notion of like finding either like abundant resources or slack resources, how that relates to non consumers?

Yeah, yeah. So in a lot of cases there's, there's cases where especially if I can get resources at a very low cost because they're, they're either excess resources or like in Detroit we have way too much land. The city is, you can fit Boston, Manhattan and San Francisco all in the city of Detroit. And we went from 2.2 million people down to just about 650,000 people. And so we have more land than we need. And so part of it is like, how do we actually. And we need jobs. And so how do we actually figure out what to do with that land and do something different with it? And so for us, we actually created urban farms around it. And so this notion is basically how do we actually take ample resources that we have and figure out what else we can do with it and how do we actually compete? So we went to the airport and found out all the stuff that people flew in and then figured out how to grow it in the city in greenhouses, one for cheaper and two, to actually create jobs for the low end of the market.

That's very cool.

So again, examples of like, if I have a lot of resources, how do I convert it? So it's an innovation problem. So I don't think of it as just a jobs to be done problem. It's more or fall into the jobs to be done lens. It's more about how do I actually think about where is their pull, where is their push, where is there anxiety? Like how do I actually make. Enable people to make progress through things that I either have excess of or that they want to make they don't know is there, they're struggling with their personal, that kind of stuff.

So in terms of like really training ourselves to be on the lookout for non consumption, do you think like what would be.

Oh yeah. So to me it really starts with, I'm always looking for struggling moments, places where you, you're frustrated personally or you see other people. Like my question sitting in an airplane, flying around is like, so what's the thing that really pissed you off this week? Like one thing that really bothers you the most, that if you could solve and people will always have something that's on that list to solve, but they usually end up blaming themselves. Like, yeah, I just haven't put enough energy towards or I haven't thought about it. So part of this is being able to collect those kinds of frustrations from either your current market or from competitive markets where, where you can actually go in at the low end. So I'm always, always trying to find struggling moments where people care enough to take action on it.

And where it comes to their mind immediately when they're kind of asking.

That's right. Well, so for example, one is like people will complain about how dirty the car is inside, right? And so it's like, well, you could build a whole line of new products for cleaning the car inside, but it doesn't have enough energy for people to realize like they're going to go to the aisle and pick it up and, and put it in the car. Then where do they store it? And then when they clean it, where do they throw it? Like there's all this other hassle wrapped around it. It's just easier to go to the car wash. And so they live with the dirtiness of their car because the fact is they can't figure out a solution. But at the same time, the fact that it doesn't matter enough to them that they're willing to go get specialty products to do it. Right. And so it's that trade off between the two. And so part of it is finding enough, where there's enough energy that people will do something about it when they see the solution, but not so expensive that they can't do it. So it's this operating window we're trying to actually figure out.

Is that something you're trying to tease out when you're interviewing someone?

Yeah, yeah. When you're interviewing people. So I call. These are like what I would call little higher interviews. And it's more like truffle hunting. It's like literally digging in the dirt and trying to tell me about specific moments where they have been struggling and what else they can do. And so it's literally trying to find the energy and what they're trying to do about it and how much. What's the new outcome or the benefit they'll get from actually making progress in that space? And so it's not as structured as I'll say, the switch interviews, but they're equally as powerful.

We were speaking to one alumni of the Building and Sustaining a Successful Enterprise course, and he said that in looking for non consumption and for people kind of struggling with products, that he would go onto Amazon and look at people who had rated something one or two.

Stars where people complain. Exactly.

Do you find that to be like a Viable approach.

I do. My thing is, again, I think of most innovation opportunities are at the fringes and you have to figure out where the fringes are. And so most of the time when people give it a one, it's that they were trying to use it for something it wasn't designed for. Like there's going to be a one because of poor quality. Right. And if I expected it to work, but a lot of times people say like, yeah, I expected it to do this, but you know, it didn't work for that. And so they still give it a one. And so part of it is, can I find new situations or new contexts where people are trying to use it and it doesn't work that I can actually build something new or something specific for that area. So that's what I do for a living. Every day I interview people and find new opportunities to actually figure out how to actually design either new products, new services every day. And so non consumption is literally part of my everyday life.

Have there been any examples that come to mind that were like very surprising for you or are they pretty?

No, they're not necessarily surprising. But I think the notion is, it's like one of those things where you didn't realize how emotional it was. Like for example, the banking business, like the notion of, you know, most people talk about banking as being the most boring thing in the world and so, so low. But the reality is when somebody switches a bank, it's extremely emotional, especially from a company perspective because you have to change everything, you have to reapply. Like it's just a massive, massive process. And so the notion is, is, is if you look at how many people want to switch banks but don't, I mean, it's actually very, very large. They just actually don't believe anybody's any better. And they don't know, actually they think the process is too hard. And so it's just one of those things where you didn't expect to find how many people were dissatisfied, but how many people tolerated just poor service in.

The banking business, dependency. Once you start down the path with one bank.

Exactly. Well, and it's like the other one I did recently is around mattresses and you just found that the number of people and how to decide what mattress to buy and the anxiety and the language that they use at the store, store and how you feel so uncomfortable trying to figure out which mattress to pick, there's just huge opportunity in that space too because there's. How many people want a new mattress but are just afraid to go buy it, same kind of thing. So I think the other part to me is non consumption is buried in everyday life. It's not like called out at any exception. It's literally you have to dig for it and you have to find it, but it's typically, it's right in front of us. And the moment that you find it, you kind of look at it and you ask, you know, 10 people about it and all of a sudden you like, you realize like, oh my gosh, everybody has this problem. And so it's typically that kind of thing. It's fun to find really good non consumption moments.

Thank you for your insights.

Thank you.

Do you have any final words of wisdom or tips for people targeting non consumption?

I just say just keep, keep finding the struggling moments. And to be honest, I think the notion of creating struggling moments for your customers so they can actually make progress is another way in which to kind of help motivate people to kind of move up market. And so I think to me it's just struggling moments is the key to almost everything in innovation. I would say struggling moment is the seed for all innovation.