S1 E2 | The Secret Language Of "Bob-isms"

The customer's life as being the sandwich, the whole sandwich, and not just the one situation they're trying to solve. Because even if I just focus on the one situation people are trying to solve, I often create problems that actually create problems for other parts of their lives. And they'll fire both systems.

Correct.

So I actually have to think about the person's life as a whole and all the different initiatives they have in their life, not just the one thing I'm going after. So we actually have to understand them at a systematic level of what has to be fired and what has to be hired to get the one thing we're getting done, but also how does that impact their whole life.

Welcome to the Circuit Breaker podcast, where we challenge the status quo of innovation and new product development. We'll talk about tools and skills and methodologies used to build better products and make you a better consumer. I'm Bob Mesta and I'm the co founder of the Rewired group, and I'm one of your co hosts and we're joined by Greg Engel, who is my co founder and chief, Bob Interpreter. Join us now as we trip the circuit and give you time to reset, reorganize, and recharge your brain to build better products.

All right, Bob, today we're going to talk a lot about your isms, that is, the things you say, a lot that people may or may not understand. But I want to unpack them a bit so people can understand more of what we're talking about or what you're talking about when you use these types of shorthand, if you will. Okay, so the one I want to start with is one that's come to the forefront, and I know you said it on several podcasts lately and also in a couple classes that you've taught, which is the notion of you're not the sandwich, your product is probably the mustard.

Yeah, I love that one.

And what do you mean? So that sounds logical, but what do you actually really mean?

So what happens is, is that most people spend so much time thinking about their product and how their product help helps people make progress. Right. But in the end, customers make progress and there's a bigger process wrapped around it, that your product is merely part of the solution, it's not the solution. And so what happens is you end up thinking that you're really important. But the reality is, like, for me to actually fix this problem, I got to do five different things, and you're just one of the five things.

Right?

And so part of this gets back to when people are trying to buy, like a new CRM, Right. The fact is that the CRM is part of the solution, but I still have to train. I still have to get the data over. I have to do all these other things around it. And so ultimately, the system itself is part of the solution, but it's not the solution. And so part of it is to always realize. I think one of my favorites is I was at a conference a little bit ago, and I was talking to the guys from TransUnion.

The thing is, they kept defining themselves as a product. TransUnion can tell you a credit score. We can tell you your credit score. Reality is what they realized at some point in time that they were actually an ingredient to helping people buy a house or to buy a car or to buy something else. And the moment that they realized that they were the mustard and not the solution, that all of a sudden that they had to be in all these right places and partner with the right people to be there at the right time, they actually grew dramatically. And so part of it is to realize at some point you want to be the sandwich, but most of the time you're not.

Well, okay, so that was still all pretty veiled. So let's unpack that even a little bit more.

Okay, here we go. Because deep into the recesses of Bob's mind. Here we go.

So the thing that I get out of that is people often think of their product as the whole. And I totally get that part of the story. But what is the sandwich then? Is it just what's going to the decision? Or is the sandwich actually the customer's whole life?

I think the sandwich is the bigger thing that they're focused on. A lot of times what happens is they're focused on. For example, I was just talking about it earlier today, but it was like, I'm focused on, for example, getting in shape. And getting in shape is a combinations of things. So my glucose meter that I have is not the solution. It's part of the solution and part of the things I have to do in order to. To get into shape so I can get ready to ski. And so part of it is, again, everybody keeps talking about, like, this is the answer, this is the answer, but it's no. It's like it's part of the answer. And to. When you flip over the world from looking at through the product to customers and looking at customers, you start to realize that products play a much smaller role in people's lives than what we think they are. And at some Point, it's a set of things. So for example, when we build houses, Right. The fact is that adding, moving and storage is a condiment. It's a side dish that we actually added to what was there. But it made the process that much better and helped people make the progress so much better. So it's the things that we have to actually bundle together or that consumers have to figure out. And so when you look at it through the customer's eyes, all of a sudden you look at your product and realize it's not the sandwich anymore, it is the mustard.

Yeah. And the way I actually think about it, it's slightly different than that because I actually think of the customer's life as being the sandwich, the whole sandwich, and not just the one situation they're trying to solve. Because even if I just focus on the one situation people are trying to solve, I often create problems that actually create problems for other parts of their lives. And they'll fire both systems.

Correct.

So I actually have to think about the person's life as a whole and all the different initiatives they have in their life, not just the one thing I'm going after. So we actually have to understand them at a systematic level of what has to be fired and what has to be hired to get the one thing we're getting done. But also how does that impact their.

Whole life, the rest of the. The rest of the part of the life?

So I think people often think of their product as a solution, like you.

Said, or no, the solution.

And it's, it's sets of solutions. And it sets of solutions around many different things. Because a CRM could have impact on just my customer initiative type stuff, but it also could impact. Impact other things I have like maybe Monday.com or different solutions. So if they don't understand all those different things going into, going into my decisions, they will end up losing.

That's correct.

Because they will create conflicts that are not, are not there. So I often think of, when Bob says that, I often think of the person's context and outcomes as the bread and then everything, everything else in it as the, the meat, the condiments, all the other things. And as the context and outcomes change, those meats and condiments always gets changed out. Right. So that's kind of how I look at that situation.

But the main reason why I use it is that it's almost like, you know, stop thinking you're the answer as opposed to you're part of the answer. That's really. When I make those statements, it's about that kind of.

You know, it's usually like, you know, take a step back and see where you really fit into people's lives.

Yeah. And I think that's how you catch yourself. Right. That's when you start thinking that you are the whole, that you are the, the sandwich or you're the one solution that everybody needs. You are on the supply side and actually looking through customers, through supply. The minute you turn it to say, okay, what other things complement or what other things do I have to fire? Now you're thinking the right way of helping that person build the meal. They're actually trying to get you.

That's right. That's right. That's right. And I go back to the notion of like I was at a fintech conference and people were talking about, you know, the loan is the most important thing. I'm like, nobody wants a loan. They want to buy a new car. They want to actually grow their business. They want to acquire something. Like it's, it's about the bigger picture, it's not about the loan. And so this is where you need to make sure that you can see the bigger, the bigger picture to see how you fit into it. So that's Bobism number one.

That's Bobism number one. Now I want to go, go to another one that's near and dear to my heart. And it's been said for, I don't know, the 20 years I've known Bob.

Or however long donkey years is what I would say. My friend Martin would say so a long time.

And that is context creates value.

Yeah.

So what do you mean when you say that? I think it's kind of self evident at one point, but it kind of just rolls over our head sometimes. So what do you really mean?

So. So the way I was raised on product was basically that the product has an innate, innate value to it. Irrelevant of context. Like this is the value of this or this is the value of a car. And what you have to realize is that when I put the car or put anything in context, context actually can actually have it have more value or less value. And that most of the time people are trying to strip away context because they want to have like the absolute value of something. And what I realized is that at some point, you know, like people like I always the way my corollary to that babism is do you like steak or do you like hot dogs? And the reality is most people would say they like both. And if I put steak in the wrong situation or hot dogs in the wrong situation, they don't actually add as much value. And so part of it is to realize that knowing the context and knowing where your product adds enough context or adds enough value in that context helps you then understand, kind of like, where to price it. My belief is most pricing is set on the lowest common denominator and not understanding that that one product in this one situation can add five times more value. But. But we end up pricing it at the lower level because we can have actually more volume.

So. But how do. How do we know that we're thinking about context and we're. And we're doing the right things, and how do we unpack that from a consumer level?

So. So part of it is getting back to, you know, the way we would talk about as hiring and firing criteria. Why does this product fit in this situation and not in that situation? Right.

Why do.

Why do hot dogs work? Well, I've got four kids. We're all running around crazy. We're trying to get homework done. We've got hockey to go to. And you know what? I can actually, you know, cook. I know how to cook that at least. And the fact is, at some point, I can get it on the table, and I know they're going to eat it. Where a steak is going to take too long, and it's really going to be one of those things where they all like it different ways. And the reality is, like, it's just. It's too hard to manage in the context of trying to give my kids steak that night. All right? And so part of this is to realize and be. And just be sensitive to the fact that there are contexts that your product will add more value or less value, and to be aware of them because they become hiring and firing criteria, by which people say, yeah, I'm going to do this, or no, no, I'm never going to do that.

But how do we find them? How do we put that in front of customers? How do we understand that? I mean, that's a. That's a hard thing for people to talk about, because a lot of times you ask somebody if they like pizza or steak or whatever example you want to give, they'll say, yeah, I like both.

Right? And so to me, that's where we dig in to say, well, tell me about the last time you had pizza. Tell me why it was a good fit. And then tell me about the last time you had steak. And then you basically say, all right, if I put pizza in that steak moment, does it fit or not? And you start to Realize there's different things you would do to either make the product fit better or the fact is it wouldn't fit at all. And so part of it is to realize that you need. This is why the second half of the I always say that context creates value, but then I always followed up that contrast creates meaning.

So I want to stick with the. I want to stick with what we're talking about.

I get it. But it's like they're related to me and that. The same thing.

I get it. So the problem is that people will always say, yeah, but I like both. And I do those things. And you're kind of trying to explain it. But what I'm hearing is the answer of why it fit is more important of what the context really is.

Here's the thing is you say you like it, right? But. And what people assume is you like it all the time. And that's the wrong answer because it's not that you like it all the time, you like it in this context, and it fits better in this context. So part of it is to realize, like, everybody thinks of an answer of, oh, I like that. Oh, you like that all the time. Well, no. And nobody actually thinks about things through time. And so ultimately, context is about seeing the world as a dynamic place and finding the variables that change, that make this product a better fit or a less better fit because of the context I'm in, not because of the features of the product.

So what should they be listening for when they're talking about that with the customer?

So in a lot of cases, it's going to be actually understanding kind of when does this thing fit? Or the. To be honest, in some cases it's like if, if you have your best customers, it's actually asking them where they would use it when they shouldn't be using it, right? So, for example, the like think of Zquil people or nyquil people were taking Nyquil to sleep even though they weren't sick, right? And it. It applied to that context, which is then how zequil was made, right? And so by understanding kind of how things fit and why you would take something when you shouldn't, or why. Why do you. When do you want to take something but you can't all help understand the context by which you have to then modify the product.

And in that. In this babism of context creates value. What does value mean?

Value is progress. Its value is in that moment. As context can actually, context can help me understand the progress I'm trying to make. Ultimately, it's Never about price. It's about value. It's about moving forward to whatever the end is of the progress you're trying to make of why you would hire that product.

Well, that's value to the consumer.

What's value in this context to the producer or to the supplier?

So ultimately, the producer has to be able to make the product in a way that actually allows them to have margin and actually have profit. And so part of this is the reality, like value to a consumer is different than value to the company. They're two different things.

All right. And so I want to move to the one that you kind of previewed without previewing it, but.

Well, that's connected, right?

Contrast creates meaning.

Yes.

So first off, what does what. Let's just unpack the word contrast. What do you even mean by that?

So. So for me, contrast is when I have two or multiple things that are different and that I can actually understand how they're different and how they fit or don't fit. And so part of this is that if I have things that are the same, I have no way to actually differentiate.

What it is or what it means. And so when you have two things that are different, I have steak and I have pizza, I can actually then find context that helps me actually understand which one is better for what situations, and vice versa. I'm always using contrast to learn. It's the fundamental principle of how I learn is through contrast.

Can you give me an example of contrast?

So at some point in time. Let's see, let me think. Like, when I go. When I go to the. When I go to the fridge to go pick out, like, I'll think I'm going to have a water, right? And then what happens is, as I open that door and I look and we have the 52 different beverages we have in there, all of a sudden, the contrast helps me create meaning of what I. What do I really want? And it's like, well, it's too early for a beer. I just had a protein shake.

Context.

It's the contrast of the choices that give me meaning to what I actually am going to choose. It's think of it as a mirror that helps me understand how what I really want and why one thing fits better than another.

So context is why I'm going to the refrigerator or what's going on around.

Me that would say I need it.

Contrast are the different solutions available to.

Me that then enable me to actually decide to be asked to better decide what fits. So I might. I think I'm going to have Water. But the fact is that if I look at all those things that I still come out with water, it's like, yeah, I'm better. Like that's really what I wanted. But if I just go get water and I look at water and have water, I don't actually know that it's the best thing. It's the contrast that creates the meaning. To know that that's the better thing.

And what's meaning, what's, what's. What does the word meaning mean in this?

Yeah, this is so meaning to me is, is this aspect of like what is the difference? What is important? What is, what is what drives value? Why does this thing better than that thing? And so part of it is to realize that context is part of this. But the fact is the contrast helps me understand why one thing is better than another. And so what I would say is every time I'm trying to actually help people understand things, I bring them a wider spectrum of things to look at because most of the time they can tell me what they don't want, which then helps me build those boundaries about what they do want.

So is meaning here really the unpacked definition of what's, what they're trying to accomplish?

That's the value. Right. So it's the thing, it's ultimately the consumer value. Correct.

And that's why you say they're connected.

That's why I say that's why.

That's why you have a hard time actually unpacking that or disconnecting them. But in reality, when I'm doing, when I'm doing interviews or I'm. Or I'm thinking about interviews that happened, I actually need to think about them differently or use them somewhat differently to get to the answer. But what I'm really trying to figure out is what are people trying, what's progress people are trying to make?

Right.

And then how do I understand the trade offs in different things through the contrast method? That's what you're really trying to do. That's right.

Well, and the contrast helps me actually understand the variables of context that are important and not important. Again, do you like steak or do you like pizza? In the context of when pizza fits and when steak fits, you start to realize it's very, very different.

So can you give, and this is an unfair question.

I'm not used to doing on recording, but yeah, you give them to me all the time, so I'm pretty prepared.

It's one of those things where we do interviews all the time, but trying to think of one on the fly that we can edit in our minds quickly enough. But the question I have is, can you give me an example, if you were in an interview, of types of questions you would be asking to get context?

Yes.

So in some cases, as I'm interviewing somebody, I'll think about other things that they might not have brought up. And so part of it gets back to the technique you and I always talk about is bracketing. But the fact is, I might bracket things to say, is this better to have, you know, with you and your. Your. Your partner, or is this better to have with the family? All right. And so part of it is, is that contrast helps understand. It's like the family's not so good. But, you know, when. When we're trying to celebrate. Yeah, that's really big. So when you're celebrating, what about when you're not celebrating? And so it's that aspect of constantly going back and forth and understanding what are the variables that are in your head as you decide that this is the right thing to pick or the. The right thing to fit into your life. What are the variables that make it so as opposed to. I could say, well, it could be either or. And then it doesn't have any impact. So if there's no cont. If there's contrast and it doesn't have an impact, then it's not actually relevant. But if there is con. If there is contrast and it does have a difference, then that actually is meaningful.

And I think you gave, like, the advanced answer because you kind of tied them both together, which we often do all the time.

I can't see it any different.

That's my problem. It's one of those things. So let me try to slow it down a bit and see. See if it resonates with you. And we can argue about it if it doesn't. But. Oh, we'll argue context. What we're trying to do there is just ask people what's going on. Like, what was going on when you decided to do this? Can you tell me the time of day? It was. Who were you with that? We're. We're trying to. We're trying to nail down the context there of kind of what's going on. Contrast is once we kind of figure out that con. Con the context, or we try to figure something out, or we're trying to get them to unpack a word, we'll give them different options and we'll put the different options in. So when you're doing that, you're going to hear things when we do interviews. You'll hear things like, well, is it more. Is it more, like.

Moist, or is it more dry? Is it liquidy or.

Is it solid, or is it smooth, or is it. And we're trying to give them different.

Contrast to tell us what the right words are, right?

So I have a very specific example. I did an interview today on somebody who took a vacation, and they kept talking about the car. I'm like, why take a car? Is this where you thought. Have you. Did you think of a train? Did you think about an airplane? And it was like, well, we didn't want an airplane because it was going to be too far and would take too long, Right. And the train would actually not give us flexibility. And so as they think about the solution, what I'm trying to do is actually throw other things in there to. To understand why they eliminated him, because they didn't even think about how they eliminated him. They didn't even talk about them. But when you actually prompt them, they'll go like, yeah, we thought about that. Because, you know, I. Because as much as he talked about driving as. As something he wanted to do, it's like, I really don't want to drive. And so, like, the question is, is then, why did you drive? And it was more the fact of kind of that context that was wrapped around it, right? And so. And so part of this is to realize it's. It's. This goes back to, you know, another thing, which is, you know, it's not. It's. A lot of times people don't know what they mean, and they can articulate what they mean by saying the opposite of it. That's the contrast part of it. And so I'd say, well, why not a airplane? Well, it was too expensive, as the fact is, we would have spent half our time traveling one place to another. We only had four days. I didn't want to spend more than, you know, an hour or two to get to where I want to get to. And then I'd say, all right, well, they went to the mountains. I'd say, well, why the mountains? Why not the seaside? Right? Or somewhere else? And they say, well, we hadn't been there before. Well, why is that important? And you start to get to it. So to me, it's the contrast that helps us understand what they really mean by the stuff. And again, most people can't tell you what easy means, but they can tell you what hard means. Like, it's too many steps and too much to remember and all that other stuff.

Well, I would caution people on any of it being easy because no, no, people are going to run out of language. Right. And that's what you have to be comfortable with when you start doing some of these things that we're talking about, especially with trying to unpack context and use contrast to do that is people are going to run out of language. And you have to be comfortable with that fact that you're going to make people uncomfortable, but make it okay for people to be uncomfortable. So it's one of the things you have to practice as you do this stuff.

I think that gets to. One of the other things is when we're doing the interviews, we're trying to actually push people to the limits of their language. So we then know how to pro prototype. Right? Which is that aspect of like, I need people to run out of words and have no definition. That means then I have to talk experientially around things. And that's where I use prototypes to create contrast. People can't say, it's, ooh, it's salty or it's sweet, or it's like if you're talking about pickles or something. And so you start to realize, like, at some point I'm better off giving them different experiences around the pickles to know what the best pickle is. Right. This is where most people try to find the best pickle. And what I, or we both do is we actually bring them a whole bunch of different pickles and figure out kind of how does it actually, what are their preferences around it. And then also then figuring out using the contrast to say, where is it not a good pickle? Right. And that gives us then the thresholds to know how to actually specify a good pickle. I know that's another bad example, but we work on the strangest things all the time.

So I think we're about out of time. So I just want to do what we normally do, which is kind of try to wrap this up and try to take some key learnings out and possibly even some things that you can go do to practice. And I think we're going to take the isms one at a time here and talk about them very, very quickly, which is when we, when Bob says or you hear us say things like, you're not the sandwich or the mustard, what we're really trying to tell you there is stop, get out of your own way, stop thinking about your product as the whole product or the only solution that will work, or the solution that will open up all the doors for the consumer. There's many things that have to happen in order for the consumer to make progress in their lives. So remember that you have to know how to fit into their ecosystem, not make your ecosystem the whole thing. For the customer, it's usually not.

Yep.

And then for the contrast creating value that's we're really trying to find the progress people are trying to make in when and where. So we're really trying to just unpack those things. So as you go through and you do interviews or or you're arguing with coworkers, try to remember what context are you really going after. Really understand those contact go those those contexts that you're going after and be very, very blunt about which ones you are and are not going after. Because when you start exploding those out, that's where you start getting.

Bloat of your product. You start over engineering because you're trying to get every context in. So really concentrate on which ones you're trying to solve. And then the contrast that's you can use with customers, you can use it with with your co workers. You want to just give you're just trying to unpack the language and you're trying to get them to give you the language that what they really mean, not just words to get you to shut up.

Yep.

And that's really the key takeaways of this episode. So if you took those away, that's great. If not, ping us and let us know so we can try to try to drive it home a little bit more and help you make progress. Because remember, the Circuit Breaker Podcast is all about recharging, refreshing, and allowing you to grow as an innovator.

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