S2 E16: Podcast Wrap-Up | The Upside and Downside of a Gut Check

We were working with a consumer packaged goods company, Right. And at some point they had the project charter and they had started going down a path for developing this product. And in the middle of it, we actually found out that there's some very big regulation issues wrapped around it. There's also some patent issues that we had to look at and that we didn't anticipate that were happening. And so at some point in time, you know, everybody had, you know, their orders and were kind of moving along. And one of the things we did is kind of said, all right, wait a second, we probably need to do a gut check here to see what are the real implications of these. This new information we found. And in it, what was interesting is like, you know, half the team was like, no, we're just going to keep going. You know, that's something for them to solve.

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Hey, Bob.

Hey, Greg. What's up, man?

So today we're going to talk about. We have a series of meetings we usually run with people and say we're going to talk about one of the, say, one of the more important ones, and it's called the gut check.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love a good check. Good check.

A gut check meeting is when you might be at a crossroads or you have to get other people on information very quickly. It could be you have to. There's a new direction, things like that.

Some context has changed of some sort or something's going on where it's like, okay, wait, let's take a step back and look at this thing again and see. See what we've learned and what to do next.

And it's about getting everybody together.

Yes.

And the reason you get everybody together is because you want all the issues on the table.

Yep.

And you want to essentially give the team the new language of whichever direction we're going.

That's right.

So that's what a gut check is. And we use it a lot in strategy discussions with our clients, marketing discussions.

Even in a project midway through, it's kind of like, okay, let's do a gut check and see where we're at. Because it's like. It's like they don't seem quite aligned. And it's a way in which to kind of build alignment halfway through or, you know, through a project.

And the reason why I decided to do that, do this topic now is because, as we did in the last season, we used a different tool in a different meeting called postmortem. And now this is the gut check. And this would be something, if we were going to do it from the podcast perspective, we would be talking about, okay, what should we. What should we start doing? What should we stop doing? What worked? Well, all those types of discussions would happen on a gut check. And I think it's a very important tool because it gives you. First, it allows. Allows everybody to give their position, and then it gives you the new language coming out. Yep.

It's about discussion and debating and. And, you know, I'll say scoping and all that kind of stuff. And so it's about, like, we have a hundred things to do. What are the 20 things we really need to do? They can do that.

So can you think of an example of a gut check meeting that you can just kind of. So people get a flavor of, of why you would call one or.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were working with a consumer packaged goods company, right? And at some point they had, you know, the project charter, and they had started going down a path for developing this product. And in the middle of it, we actually found out that there's some very big regulation issues wrapped around it. There's also some patent issues that we had to look at and that we didn't anticipate that were happening. And so at some point in time, you know, everybody had, you know, their orders and were kind of moving along. And one of the things we did is kind of said, all right, wait a second, we probably need to do a gut check here to see what are the real implications of these. This new information we found. And in it, what was interesting is like, you know, half the team was like, no, we're just going to keep going. You know, that's something for them to solve. And ultimately, what we were able to do is kind of help reframe around the patent issue from a legal perspective and then give it to the technical people to actually figure out a way around the patent. And so it helps kind of redirect the technical people from running down that path and violating it. To basically figure out a way around it. And so part of this is as new information came to bear and it's going to have an impact on kind of the things we are planning to do or the things that we have kind of like lined up, it forces us to take that step back and look at the bigger picture. And ultimately the product launched actually on time and with its own version of a patent around it. But it didn't, you know, instead of working for four or five months and then, and then doing it, we actually called a gut check almost when we got that information. So there's an immediacy to it. There's a, hey, this is what's going on. We're not, we're not trying to. We. We don't know what to do. We want to frame options of what to do. And it's. We want to have the whole team there. And so part of this is getting everything out on the table so you can have a very open and honest discussion and realize that you have to go back to the sponsor and say something's changed.

And I also think we, we use it a lot too. When, when a lot of unknowns have been surfaced.

Yes.

So it's so different than when it started.

That's right.

Right. Because you want to recalibrate that team around now, what are known? Because when you start, like you always say, there's a lot of unknowns. We, we make assumptions. But as we go through a project, if we're using it mid project, like you said, there's things that come up that now we've solved or we, or it changes the flavor of the project.

Y.

And we want everybody to hear it at once and actually get to debate whether that's a good thing, bad thing, or whatever.

Well, there's, there's like three or four implications to it. One is about what are we going to do differently. But then two, how do we communicate that and what do we communicate to whom, when and where? And so you start to realize as you change positions, it has a lot of implications. And what you realize is if you don't even have the conversation, a lot of times it ends up being all politics. A lot of this is to actually kind of get rid of the politics of the situation, to kind of go like, let's call, call it what it is. And like, what do we want to do? And most people are trying to say, like, oh, that's just. They want to hush, hush that stuff. And so we want to take that time and really, you know, unpack what what the implications are and, and realize the trade offs we have to make.

And a gut check meeting is, is somewhat dangerous because what it can come. Come to if you're not conscious of it, is it come down to a finger pointing exercise or a blame, you.

Should have known, blah, blah, blah.

And that's not the intent of this.

That's right. So there's some rules that we have wrapped around it. Like, like as we're going through, this is not about trying to find cause, this is not about trying. It's trying to learn to take a minute to learn what we've done, the progress we've made, what's the new information we have and what are several options we can do. And it's anywhere from two hours to four hours. And you know, it's, it's, it's a very healthy, almost venting exercise for, for teams as well. Because there's usually stuff that kind of builds up that they, that need, that.

Needs to be aired and I think so we want to, you know, a gut check is a very powerful tool, but it can also be dangerous and we want to make sure people are aware.

How is it, how's it dangerous? I know it's dangerous, but you think it's dangerous.

Just like we just talked about. It's got those things in it that you just talked about and I talked about. Right. So we, we want to make sure that when we talk about this is as a person that's going to lead a gut check meeting. Yeah. You should be asking yourselves some questions. Right. And some of the questions are things like what's changed from the beginning? What new information do we have? What are the one or two things have changed dramatically. What are some of the roadblocks we currently have? What are some of the new information we've learned? What's the top new things we've learned are all things that go as an input to this meeting. And then you have to give time and space to people that it doesn't turn out to be. That blame session, that.

Complaint session, all those different things. Yes. I was checking myself.

All those different things that could happen in those meetings. Because what you don't want it to be is just a, everybody come in, throw up and leave frustrated.

Yeah. Yeah.

The end of a, of a gut check should be unification.

Yes.

Understanding where we're going.

Yes.

Understanding that worked and didn't work so that we can make better trade offs later and a new language for the team.

Yep.

Right. So that's, that's the purpose of this. And that's why it's a powerful tool. And what I usually tell people. And we do it here by default.

Because it's just how we think.

I'm scared. I'm scared to run anything by myself. So we do this by default is you want a partner.

Oh, yeah.

Because if it starts going down a path, that person can usually help rein it back in, or maybe that other person has a better relationship with somebody else. And you can kind of bridge some of those gaps. So think about the makeup of your team. Think about the people you need to align before you get there. Give roles, do those types of things so that the. You're actually doing the goals, which is what's new. Where should we be going? Should we be stopping, should we be continuing, or should we reshape the project? All those things should be answered from that. And that everybody feels heard, which I know is an easy thing to say, hard thing to do. Everybody's heard. Everybody has a voice. Now in every team, there's people that have voices and people that have votes.

Yes.

And you have to make sure you.

Understand that and separate the difference between them. I think the other thing is, is making sure everybody's heard, but at the same time being able to prioritize to what are the things we really need to do. And so part of it is that that's why sometimes it takes up to four hours, because you want to make sure that you're getting that subtlety in and getting the buy in. And if you don't get everybody's input, what happens is it feels like it's a steamroll. I think the other thing is you can't have a gut check meeting, like, every month. You know what I mean? Like, you usually have one or two. Maybe a project. There's not. These are kind of significant changes that you have to think about where you are. It's. And it's. It's, if you will, a postmortem. We do at the end. And a gut check. We just do. It's kind of the same process, but we actually do that in the middle of the project to say, what do we. How do we want to change it?

So I think a gut checks where whenever you have a crossroads.

Yeah. You have new choices.

Because whenever there's huge trade. Not huge. Whenever there's significant tradeoffs.

Yes.

That have to be made. That you need everybody's voice and you can't understand.

Yep.

And whether that happens, I mean, it's. If it's every week, that's a status meeting. That's something totally different.

That's correct.

Right. You know, there are going to be some really hairy projects that you might need. Three of them. Yep. Because maybe you're going after something that no one else has done in the world.

Yep.

Then obviously you're going to have a lot of different learnings, unknowns that you uncover that could actually change the direction you're going.

Exactly.

And if, if you see something changing your direction, you need a gut check. If you just need status on where everybody is, you need a status meeting that's completely different.

That's right. The gut check is, is almost like there's enough knowledge you have that, that the path we're heading down doesn't feel right in some form or fashion because something's changed. And it's. In some cases it might be just resolving that it's not changed or it's actually figuring out how to pivot. So in startups, we do this a lot because at some point almost all startups that we've worked with have to some point they can't do everything that they set out to do. And ultimately it's like, all right, are we going to, you know, narrow it in and focus on this or are we going to actually kind of open it up? Are we going to pivot to a new place? And so that, that's another kind of use of this notion of the gut check meeting. And again, these are kind of tools that we've, we've created that, that in the middle of projects, it's kind of like we know there's something not right, but how do we, how do we get it on the table without it being a brainstorming session of things? Right. But it's that notion of being able to make it sure that it is a review that's in a very constructive way of moving forward as opposed to just getting stuff out and pointing fingers. So it's a. It requires a certain level of finesse, which you're very good at. I'm not so good at.

Well, it depends. That's why we have two people doing it. Because sometimes you need a little force and sometimes you need finesse and sometimes you need this. So. So work in pairs. I think just to go really quickly on what the meeting is. The meeting is about helping you shape the new way or a different path. It's about letting everybody be heard because there might be some. Not tension in the team, but trade offs that some people might not be happy with could be a trigger for this. It's about discussing and having real discussions about what's worked in the past.

Right.

And what's not work and what's in the. What's in the new direction. The part you said was not work. I agree, but disagree with that because in a gut check, I don't want to dwell on the what didn't work, because that becomes.

My only point is to acknowledge that this, that approach didn't work in this situation under that context.

Right. Which is hard for people to pull off. So if you actually stay on the positive side here, I think is a little bit easier for a gut check only because when you start getting into, oh, this didn't work, people feel attacked. Attacked or threatened, and we want to stay away from them as much as possible. You can't stay away from it completely. And I think, yes, you have to talk about roadblocks, which are what didn't work. But you need to frame it in about this project. Not it didn't work because of a person or a function or whatever. So I think that's what you have to do. What this isn't about. This isn't about. This shouldn't be about calling people out on the carpet.

No.

This shouldn't be about finger pointing, which is similar. Similar thing. This shouldn't be about a complaint session. This shouldn't be about complaining about your. About your bosses or, or the lack of control you have. It shouldn't be any of those things. It should be the empowerment of the control you have and what direction can you go?

That's right. It's a, It's a reality check and being able to kind of say, like, what. What are the real options we have in place here?

And. And to your point, this is a. This is a tool best used sparingly or with intent.

Yeah.

And if you use it too much, it almost cries wolf.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you don't want to do that. So you want to be very, very prudent. Yeah. Intent. I don't know what the right word is, but yeah, you want to. You want to make sure you're doing it and you're not doing it so much that people. It turns into a status meeting. And that could happen.

Yeah.

So you want to make sure you're pulling it out and you're doing those things at the right time and space. Remember, time and space is time and space in the project and time and space in people's. People's work.

The workflow.

Yep. Right. So if you try to pull one out when someone's in the middle of doing a big hairy coding job, or experiment or something like that. They're probably not going to be totally engaged. So you have to give people time and space for that as well. And you have to be. Because remember, you want the dialogue. The dialogue, the getting on the same page and the voting or the direction is the most important thing out of this. So if you think about this as a system, the output should be the new direction and then all the things that go into why you're changing your direction.

That's right. And this is the other part of this that was also kind of separating. We said we were going to do all these things, and now that we know these things, we're not going to do this. So it's also about rectifying expectations and not building that. That backlog of, oh, yeah, we're still going to do all that other stuff too. It's about kind of leaning out what you're trying to do as opposed to kind of just adding to what you're doing.

Well, it's. Right. Scoping. Yeah, that's. And that's the hard part with the way we're saying these things is it's hard for people because you always want to add the things, what not to do. And sometimes that becomes hard for. It depends on the team, right? Yeah, depends on the team. And you have to know your team. Right. So I guess that's the main thing.

Right. But I think when you're planning a project, sometimes you're. You're not. You don't have all the facts and you're committing to something. And then all of a sudden. But the gut checks part, the gut check role is to actually kind of rectify misguided expectations and to shape them in a different way.

And I think all I'm saying is, is worry more about the direction you're going. Worry less about the past.

Yeah. But I just want to make sure you're not dragging the past along with you because you don't need to do it anymore. There's a lot of stuff where people.

Correct, which is new direction and scoping correctly. Right. And what I don't want people. And some teams are very. And some teams can do this and some teams can't. As far as when you keep bringing up what didn't work or.

What you're not going to do, a lot of times people have a hard time letting go of those things and it brings up animosity. And as a leader of this workshop, this meeting, I want you to make sure you're always going focusing on the forward and not the Past though we all know you need both. It's. How do you document it for your team with the maturity they have in the moment? So there's not. So I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm not saying I'm right.

It's just dangerous to.

But you have to. You have to know your team to know what they can handle. What can they handle or not handle, really, truly. So I think that's kind of what a gut check meeting is. And the homework for this one is, as you think about in a gut check can be used in personal life.

Y.

And we know people have used it for very serious decisions in their life, like divorce.

Yes.

We've actually known people have done that.

They've done a gut check and realized.

That it was not. It was time to move on a new direction. So as you look at your work, maybe some personal stuff. Is there a time where you need to get other people on board or you need to hash something out? And by just taking the right time and space, can you figure out the trade offs that need to be made? Can you think of the new direction? And if you can, then try to follow to the best of your ability, which I know we. We spit it out really fast, but you best your ability. Can you take the information and say, okay, what is the right direction for me? What where? What has changed? What do we learn? What. What have we learned? What's. What are still unknowns? How do we now then make a new path or a new direction or a slight change? It's kind of like the analogy is, you know, you're driving down the road and road construction's ahead. You have to make a decision.

Yep.

That's what a gut check is. Yeah. Do I stay on path because I know where I'm going and I'm willing to take the five minutes, or do I hop off and try to find my way? What information do we need to make those decisions? Exactly.

Exactly.

It's a. It's kind of that analogy. So think of those things and if it is, just use the tools. As we kind of talk about it, think about what it is and then make sure whoever you're doing this with, you now have a shared understanding of the new direction. Unpacked as thoroughly as you can without getting too personal and too directional. Because you always need people to have space to be able to do their own thing and try to do it in the most genuine way without laying over and just letting anybody do what they want. But then also not coming down to that pointing fingers, like the person that we know that actually used it in a whether to get separated or not. It couldn't get down to pointing fingers. It had to get down to what do you want? What do I want? And what are the right choices for us?

Well, and what are the. What are the choices between those two? And it's ultimately being able to frame it and make a reasonable, rational decision about it. And it's very important for projects.

So. So like always, thank you for listening and we hope you catch the next one. I think this is the final episode of the season.

Yeah.

So I think we're taking the summer off and then we're going to be looking at starting this back up in the fall.

Yep. Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you.

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