He 20x'd his net worth in 4 years

There's this common theme in our culture that, you know, you're either born with money or you're not, right? You're either a trust fund baby or you're just never going to be wealthy. And it's actually exactly opposite. 86% of millionaires are actually self-made, which is very different than most people think. And it should be very, very encouraging.

Hello, future billionaires. Welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. Today, Today's guest is Bronson Hill. I'm super excited to have Bronson on the show today. Bronson and I have known each other for several years, have been a lot in the same circles, and I've really grown to love him as a person, who he is, what he's doing. And he is also an expert at passive investing. He's written several books. He's raised for lots of different asset classes. He's invested in lots of different asset classes. So wanted to bring Bronson on to talk about his story. Bronson, thanks for coming on, man.

Hey, Ben, I'm excited to be here, man. I've been following your show for a while. And, uh, of course we've been friends for a while, but it's great to be on here and always have a great conversation.

Love it. So talk a little bit about your background. What got you into the passive investing world?

I had a good job, was making over $200K a year as a medical sales professional. And I wanted to have more control over my time. And I worked with a couple of physicians that made over $3 million a year each, but they were working 60 to 80 hours a week. And I just thought, you know, this is not my idea of financial freedom, right? A lot of people say financial freedom, but really what I wanted was time freedom. So I just basically tried to figure out what are ways that, you know, as Warren Buffett says, that making money while you sleep, right? How can I, how can I figure that part of this out? And so I'd been doing some single-family houses, realized that wasn't going to get me there just because it wasn't going as quickly enough. And then one of your recent guests, Wes Hill, is my cousin and I hadn't seen him in a number of years. Told him I planned to get 30 single-family houses. He's like, why don't you just do multifamily, do apartments? And I was like, well, I don't have the money for that. And he said, well, you can raise the money. So I learned about raising my capital. In the process of raising capital was investing my own capital. And then I left my corporate job about— it's been about actually this month has been 4 years. Fast forward, we've done a lot of different asset classes. We've raised about $50 million. So it's been quite a journey and it's been a lot of fun. And it's just great to be able to have that time freedom that I was wanting.

So break down the difference of time freedom versus financial freedom for what you were wanting.

Yeah, I think seeing those doctors and seeing that, you know, for them, even if somebody's high paid or even if I was making $200K a year or more, I just couldn't take the time off to do the things I wanted to do. I, I'm a big traveler. I love traveling. I traveled 6 times internationally last year, went to the base camp of Mount Everest, hiked for 10 days, which was amazing. And then also writing books and creating experiences with family, took my daughter to Alaska this summer. And so, you know, things like that, things that like we all wanna do, but we just don't have time to do. And so what I realized is, again, people can be owned to a job or chained to a business. For a doctor who makes a ton of money, if they don't go to work, they're not getting paid. So I realized, you know, if I could grow my passive income by $5,000 or $10,000 a year, that was huge because that would scale over time and that would grow and eventually it would overtake my ordinary income. That's where obviously groups like yours or mine help with that process. So a lot of people would say, hey, I know I've got all the money I need, but yet their lifestyle inflation, other things cause them to not have the time freedom that they want, and they're just kind of chained to the job or the business forever.

Yeah, no, I love that. You said making money while you sleep, right? Making money without correlation to the amount of effort that you're putting into it. I think that that's such a big concept for people that are just getting exposed to these kinds of ideas. Was real estate the primary option for you? How did you get introduced to that as a pathway specifically then?

Yeah, I think that most of us know someone that's become really wealthy through real estate over the years. And so I think we all kind of know deep down we should be doing real estate. If you look at traditional finance, I was an investment advisor for a few years kind of on the side while I was doing the medical sales thing. And I just saw the misalignment of interest and that nobody really becomes wealthy by using these traditional Wall Street methods. Just the conflict of interests are pretty significant. And so I think from real estate, it just, it seemed like the path to go. And like I said, I started with single family. My book, Fire Yourself, basically it's a guidebook. I know I should be doing this, but how do I even get started? Right? And so I think for me, You know, I don't necessarily love real estate, but I love what real estate has done for me, right? It's given me financial freedom. It's helped me to open doors. Obviously we have a demand. There's incredible demand. You guys work in real estate as well. Incredible demand for, you know, there's just no technology that's like going to totally do away with that. So the idea of owning assets, especially in a time of big technological change, I think we were in right now with AI, I think the more physical assets you can hold, the better off you're going to be over time, especially if they're cash flowing and there's some sort of inflation hedge like real estate has built into it, which I love.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What prompted you to write the book Fire Yourself? I love the title and it's kind of on that concept, right? Of, you know, being able to replace your income through passive investing so you can cover your expenses through your investment returns that then allow you to not have to work if you don't want to. Right. Is that kind of the idea of the book?

Exactly. Yeah. Well, there's a story in the book I share and it's kind of an embarrassing story, but really kind of helped me to prompt me to write the book. But I was worth, at the time I was doing my medical sales, had a net worth of about $250K. Or $200K. And I was basically doing this options trading strategy with a phrase you might be familiar with called iron condors, right? And if you have an animal in your trading strategy, you might be a little bit advanced. So I was doing this and I actually was making money for 4 or 5 months. I ended up making about $20K, but then in one day, I literally remember the moment I was sitting outside White Memorial Hospital in the parking lot as the markets closed. And I realized I was on my laptop. I realized that I had lost in one day, had a max loss, lost $70,000 in one day. Right. And it was something, you know, I maybe didn't work the system correctly. Something happened. It was a kind of a fluke thing that happened. But I realized at that time, I was, you know what, I mean, it kind of sounds like what an iron condor would do.

It's a very, very heavy bird. Probably can't keep itself off the ground.

Exactly. Just kind of took off my money. It just grabbed me.

Might be a reason for the name.

So yeah, I never thought of it that way, Ben. Thanks for just totally changing the way I look at that and redeeming that. But you know, for me, I think a lot of us. We see people making money, we see people doing well in business and in finance, and there's not really a lot of guidebooks on like, how do I get started? What do I do? What's step 1, 2, 3? And so this book really was created around like, first of all, why is Wall Street not working for you? Some people may think it's working. I mean, I get an example after example. Tony Robbins had a book called Money: Master the Game. He said that most mutual funds, which is very common now, they'll have these time-dated mutual funds, whether it's the Vanguard or one of Fidelity, and they'll say it's, um, and you're familiar as a banker, you know, they'll say the fees are 1.2%, but But there are actually all these hidden fees they legally do not have to disclose. I don't know how it's legal, Ben, but it's legal. So they'll have another 2% of hidden fees, things like administrative fee, cash drag fee, exchange fee that are in there. So the fees are actually about 3.2%. Now, the people, the advisors, people don't even understand this is happening, but it's actually happening. And then if you have a financial advisor, they're typically taking another 2% on the top. So you add those up, that's about 5.2% per year. Returns in the stock market are typically only around 6 to 9% per year if you count the down years, right? And the volatility. So they're taking most of your money. So I think that I started on the book kind of talking through, hey, this is why this isn't working. And here's why you need to look at alternatives. I know you just wrote a book. You and your dad just wrote a book, which is incredible. I've read it. It's a phenomenal book. And so I recommend that. I think it comes out later this month, right? Or comes out shortly.

September. Yeah.

September. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I got an early view on that, which is really great, but just the idea of like getting into alternative assets. Finding a way to identify deal flow, to actually vet deals of any asset. Like, how do you do that? How do you feel comfortable putting, you know, $50,000, $100,000 or more in with a partner that you never met in person? Like, how do you do that diligence so you feel comfortable with it? And also, what's the primary one or two risks that you see that things could not go right? And so there's kind of a process I take people through on just generally understanding alternative assets, different kind of assets that are out there, and just the process to walk through. So that's really what kind of inspired me and what helped me to I want to write that book to help people.

I love it. I've read your book. It's a great book. So people should go get it. Talk about that process. Cause I think, you know, you've realized, hey, the kind of path that's paved out for me here with traditional Wall Street, it's not the best option. I want to get control over my time, control over my wealth. Real estate is a proven path, investing in real estate, raising money for real estate, but then you have a whole other set of dilemmas, right? Because now Okay, how do I know if it's a good deal? How do I know I'm investing with a good operator? Who do I trust? What do I believe in the pro forma? What do I, what do I push back on early on? You know, what was that process for you? And then fast forwarding a few years, how has that process changed?

Yeah, I think, you know, when I first started, it was more relationships, just trying to find out about deals, and then We've had some deals not go well. So when things don't go well, there's an opportunity to learn. And just on that one day, $70,000 loss in options trading, I learned, okay, I'm not a good options trader. Don't invest in iron condors that take your money and fly away. But just the idea of being willing to learn and grow. And so now I have a framework. I actually wrote about this in Fire Yourself, my book. A lot of times deals will come to us as investors, passive investors. We get sent something. Here's a deal. And you have to kind of take a step back and say, well, first of all, What are my goals as an investor, right? I mean, are my goals cash flow? Is it appreciation or preservation or tax benefits, right? What really are the goals here, right? And so you got to say, well, is this even in kind of the ballpark of what I'm trying to do? You know, it's a funnel. So you start with the top is really what is the market, right? So if we're buying real estate, if we're buying, let's say it's self-storage Houston, right? So we're looking at a self-storage deal right now in Houston, Texas. First of all, what's that market for self-storage? What's the demand for it? Is it growing? Is it shrinking? How's the population doing? What's the job growth? Think about all things for that specific market. If you're in a bad market that's shrinking, that's not a good market, no matter what you do, it's gonna be much harder. So start with the market, then you go down to the who's the team, who's gonna actually be operating this. So when you ask the question of like, is this for this team, do your values align? I used to think when I first started, we all have the same kind of values, you know, collect investor money, they want to communicate well, and they want to have the great same kind of things. A lot of people raise money from investors, they don't really want to hear from them, they just want to kind of do their thing, and they don't want to communicate, and they don't— it's really frustrating as a passive investor when you can't get a hold of somebody, or you need a correctional K-1 and you can't get somebody to help you. So I think having those those value alignments is helpful. And then also from their track record, and you kind of see how they can get to success. Then the last thing— so you start with the market, then the operator, then it's the deal itself. Does the deal actually fit your criteria, what you're looking for? What do you see? How are you going to make money on this? And like I mentioned, what's the one or two primary risks of ways you could lose money? And I actually like to— when I have a call with an operator, I'll ask before I tell them what I think, I said, what do you think is the biggest risk of this deal? And a lot of times they'll say something very different than what I thought of, right? So it's a great way to get information. And I always tell investors, if you don't understand the risk, or it looks too good to be true, or there's really no downside, you really haven't looked at the deal well enough. There's always risk in every investment. And if you don't see it, you probably don't understand the deal well enough. So I think just really kind of eyes wide open, best case, worst case scenario. And then if you get through all that, then you'll say, okay, yeah, I actually do want to invest in this, then you can move forward. But I think it's having some sort of framework of what are my goals? What's that specific market? Who's the operator? And what's that specific deal toward meeting those goals?

Yeah, I love that framework. Very simple, kind of top-down. You know, one of the things that I think has been unique for a lot of people as we've kind of been in a down cycle in real estate over the past few years, and a lot of things, a lot of expectations of what people thought they were going to get has not been met, right?

Yeah.

A lot of that's been caused by things outside of the control of operators, like interest rates, like insurance, and other challenges that have been happening in the commercial real estate sectors. But you said one thing is really looking at the operator, looking at the character. But a lot of times it's kind of catch-22 is because you don't really know the character of somebody until they are in a position to have their character tested, right?

Yeah.

So what do you look at for now? What do you use as proxies or shortcuts or other things looking for yellow or red flags when evaluating an operator to really assess Are they high character? Are they high integrity? What are the things you look at now to try to dig in a little bit further on that to give a good indication?

Yeah, so there's the things we do kind of in general, you know, when we work with partners or passively invest, try to do a background check. I'm surprised how few investors do that. I mean, you pay $50, you can just see, you know, criminal background check and see anything that's there. But I think some of the biggest things that I've found is other investors that have had a track record investing with someone for a long period of time, like my cousin Wes had invested with you guys for years. I just sung your praises. Said, you guys are awesome. Right? And so now I've worked with you guys on multiple deals and, or even we have another deal we're doing with a group. And I've known this guy for 5 or 6 years. He's got a good reputation. I've done some educational stuff with him. You know, I've seen him at events. They've grown very quickly. So I've been a little bit cautious to get involved, but I also have been like, well, you don't really know until you actually invest with someone. Right? So you can get as much information as you can. You can talk to people, you can say, hey, here's what I'm seeing. But I think if something looks too good to be true, often it is too good to be true. So If someone is kind of building something up in a way that just feels like there's no downside, right? Or, oh yeah, we had stuff going wrong, but you know, it was like, I was wrong about the fact I thought I was wrong, but I was right or something. You know, they just are like, there's some sort of thing that doesn't quite add up, right? Like, I'm never wrong except for that one time.

It's like, what's your biggest weakness? Oh, I cared too much. I worked too hard. It's like, I know, I know.

We just do too well at work and it's a weakness because it hurts my personal life. And it's like, okay, this is not an interview. But you know, an interview, if you interview somebody and they say stuff like that, it's like, Well, you don't know. And this is even too, in a way, I just made the correlation. When you're working with a firm to manage your funds, you're actually hiring somebody, right? So it's almost like you're having an employee come in. And if an employee comes in to interview, so you have somebody from the outside comes in, it's very difficult, right? Because they can say all the right things, they can do all the right things. But the best information on people that I talk to that do hiring, they say, when we have an internal referral of somebody that's actually worked with this person before, That is huge, right? And so that's just from hiring an employee in a company, in a larger company. And so I think it's the same if you can really find someone who you respect and say, who have you worked with that's just really— communication is great and performance is great because both of those are very important, right? If the performance can suck, well, I mean, that's a terrible experience. But if one or the other is bad, it's just not good. But you want both, right? You want somebody who's going to communicate even when there are challenges, as they will come up in different deals. So I think that's where the networking piece of it— I know you guys do networking events. We have a group called the Wealth Forum, which is high net worth investors that basically we're we're all in the room together, we do virtual calls and just share those wins and losses with each other because there's not a lot of places people really share openly about those things. And that's the stuff that I think we all really need.

It's really such a great hack, right? And I love that connection to hiring because I think if I have a candidate that comes through one of my employees that I really like and is a hard worker, they're going straight to the top of the list, right? Because it just, it eliminates so many questions, right? And similar to investing is like, if you know people that are already working with them, you can get such a shortcut. So I love that you're creating your own community and helping that because it is, it's hard. It feels like a black box sometimes and just getting that feedback and other perspectives is a way to really accelerate, I think, the wealth building and the success of investing. I'd love to shift a little bit here to your investing portfolio and kind of how you think about building your own personal wealth. So, you know, are you comfortable sharing, you know, range of net worth? And let's kind of break that down percentage-wise of what you're invested in.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. So, um, you know, net worth, we were talking about this before. It's how do you calculate net worth when you have all these deals that are in process? And so I would estimate kind of $3 to $4 million net worth. There's some passive, probably about a million passively invested or in prior deals. And I'm just going through the list here. I've actually, of my passive portfolio, I've actually got quite a bit, about 40% actually in physical precious metals. I was just kind of like, I was actually doing this exercise. I was like, wow, that's pretty high. Part of that's because I like the liquidity. I can actually borrow against it if I need it. So instead of holding cash, I hold that. I can basically borrow against it like a HELOC. So I have it with a third-party vault. So it basically is just like having cash. So when I need to close on a deal, I need cash available. I can just go tap that. I have a fair amount in multifamily as a passive investor. So that's probably about 20% or more of my passive portfolio. I've done some VC in the energy space. I've got some car wash, oil and gas, and then I've got something in a fund called Life Settlements, which is an insurance product. And so those are kind of most of my passive stuff. And then all this stuff, you know, we do a lot of is active, right? So we'll make money on an acquisition fee for doing a deal, whether it's— we've shifted a lot from multifamily now to do a lot of my favorite investments now, which are oil and gas, buying private businesses or debt funds or private credit because of the cash flow. So we've really shifted to a lot of that. So just seeing those types of opportunities, we get residuals from that, but it's, you know, a lot of those are going to return multiples over the next 3 to 5, 10 years.

Got it. And so you mentioned a lot of things that are really interesting. You have precious metals and a pretty healthy dose of that. You've got commercial real estate, got oil and gas, you got life settlements. I mean, that's a pretty diverse set of investments. What kind of led to the diversification across these different sectors? What was kind of that process for you?

Yeah. So I think my journey, it's a little bit different than most passive investors because when I invest passively, a lot of times it will be like, okay, I want to invest in this, but also like, it's great to have a passive investment that I do that's like, oh, I've invested in this investment over the last couple years and then I can actually potentially bring it to my investors. Right. So there's also some strategy and like, I'm investing passively in this for this reason. And then sometimes, like, you know, again, my thought as an investor, it's a challenging time for a lot of real estate investors. Like if you're investing in a place like where I live in Southern California, it just doesn't make sense, right, for single-family. I mean, it's almost— not only are things not cash flow positive, meaning the rents are not covering the mortgage, it's almost a 2-to-1 the other way. As an investor, I have to look and say, what are my goals? If my goals are cash flow, then I go to those 3 things I love right now, right? Oil and gas, buying private businesses, and then also the debt funds as well. So things that cash flow. So I've had— I guess when I invest, I try to, you know, look at a broad range of things and being able to be nimble and not say, oh, I only do multifamily, or I only do self-storage, or I only do oil and gas. It's like I can choose between all of them. Having some diversity can be good for diversification reasons as well as just right now, this makes the most sense to me now.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And you kind of hit on it, but you said you've kind of shifted a little bit towards the types of deals that you're preferring now, which are more cash flow focused. So has that been kind of a thesis shift for you or for your investment strategy, emphasizing cash flow over maybe just growth? Or do you you just got overallocated in growth and you want to shift more cash flow? What's been driving some of that maybe preference toward those types of investments?

Yeah, well, I think anybody who's been investing the last few years, who's been an equity investor in real estate, has had challenges. I mean, anybody, anybody who bought, especially, you know, 2021, 2022, there's been challenges. So I think that for people that had cash flow, for me in my real estate investing, I was doing really well, getting quite a bit of cash flow and a lot of deals that were going great either went suddenly to not only cash flowing well, to like either not cash flowing at all or actually being seriously in trouble. Right. I know guys that do capital raising have gone back to go get a job because the cash flow has just evaporated. And so you've had to try to figure out, hey, what do I do now to kind of not only cover expenses? So that's partly why I've made that shift because what we've seen in real estate at times was great cash flow, but it's just, we are not seeing it now with new acquisitions.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What's been the best investment that you've made over the past decade or so of your investing career?

Oh man, the best investment. Well, we had a deal we bought in Florida. It was 288 units and we bought it for $27 million. We held it for 10 months. We did very minimal work on it. And then we basically, the market shifted very quickly and we were able to sell it for $37 million. And so we made almost 100% IRR in like 10 months. It was like crazy. And of course we thought we're geniuses, but really sometimes, you know, it's better to be lucky than good, right?

Exactly.

And so, you know, I've had, we've had challenges as well, but I think that's been a good one. You know, there's been other deals.

Is that really just as a currency hedge? What's your thesis behind why precious metals and storing them in that?

Yeah, it's pretty polarizing for a lot of people. So I like the inflation hedge component of it. I like that it has a monetary history that it actually stores value in itself. I like that you can borrow against it. You know, again, I don't look at it necessarily like an investment. I look at it more as storing wealth than I would store it in that rather than dollars. Right? Because you have to keep liquidity somewhere.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, the fact you can borrow against it makes it very valuable because you can get the cash you need without having to realize a gain or a taxable event. And it has, you know, components as a strong hedge. Historically, it's been proven to be a good inflation hedge.

We'll see. I mean, there was a time, you know, back in the '80s where 1980 was where it went up about, you know, between 1974, 1980, went up 25x. And so I just personally think that at some point, people selling digital real estate on the internet or crypto or other things, people will start to say, "Hey, what's really real? What's actually valuable?" You look at what countries are actually doing, and there's been more buying of physical gold in the last 5 years than just about ever from other foreign governments. So I think that as fiat currencies and things, what's happening with the dollar and all these things, just having something that is in a different realm, I think there's value in that. So again, I don't look at it necessarily like a speculation or investment, but it does store value for me. And like you said, I can get a loan and have no fees on the front end and basically use it as a, like a HELOC, a home equity line of credit, where it's only for the specific days that I have it out. And then when I put it back in, it goes back in. I can get money within 2 days. Right. So it's very liquid. It's very available. And it's at like a 10% interest only rate. So, you know, there's, there's benefits to that.

Yeah, for sure. What about your, your worst investment? And what are the big lessons that you took away from that that have shifted maybe how you invest going forward?

Yeah. Well, I've got a couple, but I'll share one. So I did a Bitcoin mining fund. This was several years ago, and the operator kind of went belly up when prices went down significantly. And I mean, I realized that looking back, if I had just simply bought Bitcoin, I would've done very well. I got to get smart with this, right? We're going to do the mining. We're going to get better at this and be savvy with it. So I think that things like debt funds or things like long-term real estate that has maybe not sexy-looking returns, but a lot of times those deals tend to perform or outperform, right? Versus things that, like, I used to chase the 20% IRR, right? And so the really savvy investors are like, hey, I'm good with 12% or I'm good with 13% if I know it's solid. And so it's just interesting how sometimes I think for me, I've been sometimes chasing the higher return or chasing more, versus like, you know, if you just get something stable that's there, that you know it's there, you can count on it, it basically goes in a whole nother, like a much lower risk category.

Yeah. So the takeaway is being comfortable with a lower return because of the trade-off and lower risk that creates more stability.

Yeah. I mean, I would say that's one. I've heard people say this as well, but sometimes too, having things that are very kind of boring, low-risk investments, and then also conversely, having things that you invest in that there is a shot that this goes 10x or 100x. So you have some higher-end things that you understand that there's higher risk there, and maybe it's a 50% chance of a total loss, but there's a chance that it goes way higher. But you're just understanding maybe that's 10% of my portfolio. So I'm doing much more of the boring kind of basic stuff that's like, hey, very stable, very this and that. But I am taking some shots that if This goes the way I think it could go, it could 5x my net worth or something. So I think having some of both.

Yeah, absolutely. Talk a little bit about next steps. You're writing some more books and I know you're excited about this new series you're coming out with and talk about what is kind of the future for some of the content you're putting out.

Yeah. Yeah. So we're growing our group, The Wealth Forum. We have a free group. We have a couple, like a high, an elite group, which is in-person and kind of calls with other investors. So we're doing that. And then we're, The books. Yeah. So I, I, after all these conversations, these 2,500+ conversations with high net worth investors, I've realized that there's a lot around mindsets. You know, our mindset when it comes as an investor, about 90% of people have self-sabotaging behaviors. There's a component I call wealth worthiness where we actually can sabotage ourselves and we walk in, we don't see the situation or we don't feel like we're worthy of it, even though we wouldn't really put that into words. So this book called Rich Brain, it's how the wealthy change their brain to change their bank account, is really what are the wealth habits? There's this common theme in our culture, Ben, that, you know, you're either born with money or you're not, right? You're either a trust fund baby or you're just never going to be wealthy. And it's actually— the data is actually exactly opposite, where it actually— Fidelity Investments did a study in 2019 and found that 86% of millionaires are actually self-made, right? Which is, you know, almost 9 out of 10 people figured out a way and learned how to do it, which is very different than most people think. And it should be very, very encouraging that anybody who's not wealthy or anybody who wants to teach their kids or things like that, these are learnable, teachable habits And I was able to about 20x my net worth in about 4 years by using some of these mindset practices. And so I'm very excited to be able to release that book and talk about how people can really incorporate that in their lives.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, that's exciting. I'll be looking forward when it comes out. Bronson, thanks so much for coming on, man. This was really fun. We'll put some of these links in the show notes so people can learn more about what you've got going on. And I always appreciate getting to spend some time.

Thanks, Ben. Appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.

So glad we got Bronson on the show. We'll have to all let you know when his next book, Rich Brain, is out. I'm coming away from that conversation with 3 big takeaways. First is don't shy away from the less sexy-looking returns like 12 or 13%, as they might outperform the bolder deals in the long run. 2, choose deals that serve your end goal. If the end goal is time freedom like it was for Bronson, then choose deals that serve that purpose. Purpose. And 3, talk to your network about how you're investing. Who knows where Bronson would be if he never talked to his cousin Wes Hill about multifamily? There's so much to learn from other investors before you, so don't be shy. On that note, another reminder, the Invest Like a Billionaire book that I co-wrote with Bob Fraser is available for pre-order now. Check it out at thebillionairebook.org. That's it. Thanks for listening. If something in today's episode sparked your interest, drop us a 5-star rating to let other listeners know what you're enjoying and share with a friend. We'll see you all next week.