How to Build Lasting Wealth With Real Estate feat. Kathy Fettke

Just because you're a good business owner doesn't actually mean you're necessarily a good investor.

It seems like there are more tools to prevent recessions than ever before.

If prices do come down more, there's so much capital out there waiting to get back in the market. Very big players have started writing very large checks.

To think that the housing market could see a crash is kind of naive and uninformed because homeowners have never been in a better position.

What are some of the kind of keys that you guys have seen that I think— I know a lot of our listeners that are business owners may or may not be in real estate as a primary business, but I know a lot of these principles are probably overlap any kind of industry.

Always just know that if you're going to take risk, have a safety net of enough reserves.

Hello, future billionaires. Welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. Have a fun show for you today. We brought on a returning guest, Kathy Fetke. She's the co-founder of the Real Wealth Network. She's been running a radio and now podcast for over 20 years, talking about wealth building, talking about real estate investing. Her and her husband Rich are amazing. We've known them for a long time, the conference circuit and just lots of other things that they've been doing. So definitely provides a really great perspective from many decades of investing. She talks about, you know, why owning assets is the number one way to get ahead, talks about the Fed, the economy, housing market, what to expect, uh, where there's opportunities. And also a new book that, uh, her and her husband wrote about scaling your business and how to scale smart. So definitely a lot of great things to pull from this episode. If you're enjoying the episode, the podcast in general, we ask, you know, if you're willing to leave a review, share with a friend. As always, really appreciate that. That's very, very helpful for us to continue to grow the show, get on, you know, big, big name guests, really meaningful content. So thank you so much for being a listener. We appreciate you. Hope you enjoy the show. This is the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast, where we uncover the alternative investments and strategies that billionaires use to grow wealth. The tools and tactics you'll learn from this podcast will make you a better investor and help you build legacy wealth. Join us as we dive into the world of alternative investments, uncover strategies of the ultra-wealthy, discuss economics, and interview successful investors. Welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. I'm your host, and today I'm joined by Kathy Fettke, Very excited to have her on the show. Kathy is a returning guest to the show. She was on, I don't know, maybe a year, year and a half ago and a longtime friend of the podcast and of our firm here. We've been at lots of conferences together, spoke a lot over the years. Love what she and her team are doing. She's the co-founder of The Real Wealth Network and the host of The Real Wealth Show, as well as a co-host on BiggerPockets Podcast. So super excited to have her come on. She's really an expert in just tracking big picture macro economics. They're also got a lot of interesting real estate opportunities, been in the space for a long time. So just a wealth of knowledge, always interesting things to learn from her. So Kathy, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.

Yes. So for those that maybe aren't familiar with you or didn't catch the first episode, we did the a year or so ago. Give a little background on, on you and then kind of what you're doing right now with some of the kind of education networks that you are running.

Yeah. So the kind of long short story is that I started— well, I was a very happy housewife. I had been in the broadcast business and I got to be a stay-at-home mom when Rich was a business coach. And but then he had melanoma and we had done everything right. We had put, you know, saved 10%, invested 10%, 10% to charity, all the things our financial planner told us to do. And then when Rich had this melanoma and the doctor thought it spread and told him he had 6 months to live, you would be amazed at how quickly you can go through your savings and your investments.

Mm-hmm.

Time like that. So, uh, I, I just thought, okay, first of all, I didn't believe the doctor. I was like, I just gotta take over the finances and get us through this. I still had a radio show in San Francisco, so I, I started to interview people on how they made their money and not just a little, but a lot. You know, how did you create an empire? And then I wanted to know, how did you create passive income? Because if the doctor was right, I wanted to be able to be home with my family during this difficult time. So that's when I just used my radio show. It's the, the Real Wealth Show today. It's still around 20 years later. It's, there's still stuff to talk about. It's amazing. But that's when I just kind of learned the secrets of the wealthy. And, you know, there is, there is a difference between the wealthy mindset and the, you know, kind of average person mindset. And once you get into that and adopt it, it's the— it just can change your life. So that's part of the story.

Yeah. So you guys have been in the space for a long time. You and your husband Rich, and both just a huge wealth of knowledge. And, you know, a lot of people that are newer to syndications or real estate investing and all this is, you know, so cool, so new. You guys have been around the, you know, for a long time and have seen a lot of things that have happened and, you know, these different cycles. Talk a little bit, you've written, I think, a few books or you, I know Rich has and you guys have together, but you have a new book coming out. Talk a little bit about that. 'Cause I want to definitely put the link to the show notes. I don't think it's going to be released until September, you said, but we'll definitely put all the links in the show notes so people can get their hands on it. But I mean, really powerful story. And you guys have seen a lot, gone through a lot of cycles and have really found things that have worked. So talk about the new book a little bit.

You know, BiggerPockets reached out and asked us to write it because we have been in business for 20 years, over 20 years. And as you probably know, many businesses fail after a couple of years and definitely after 5 years. So what was the sticking power, especially during so many different presidencies, so many different recessions, different, you know, a pandemic, like what worked. So it was something we hadn't really thought about and had to sit down on sticky notes, like what are the things we learned? What are the things we did wrong? We kind of put that in the book. It's called Scaling Smart because I like to think of it like an iPhone or something, like technology today, a smart anything. You could get an iPhone and for you, yours might be set up completely different than mine. Because it's based on our preferences. And too often we don't know what our preferences are as business owners or investors. Like, what are we really trying to achieve here? What do we— how is this going to make our lives better and more simple? How's it going to really help us in the long run? It's just— it's funny. Too often we just don't even ask these questions. It's like, oh, so-and-so invested in that, we'll do this. Or, you know, I'm just going to—

right.

This is— then you find out you're working your life away and you wake up at 60 and you haven't you know, where you live. So it's called scaling smart to make sure that you, that your investments and your business work for you so that you're not working for them for the rest of your life.

Yeah. Yeah, so interesting. I had a guest on the podcast a month or so ago who's in business acquisitions and he was rattling off some stats about small businesses and, 90% of businesses fail, right? And I think we take for granted a lot of times that, you know, just staying power is actually kind of difficult, right, to kind of make it past some of these big hurdles of the first year and whether they get that even 5 years and can you make it through market cycles. And I think real estate especially can be challenging because there can be really low lows, really, you know, hard recessions or difficult you know, things that can impact industry. You have to give all the secrets away because we'll put the link in the show notes for people to read. But what are some of the kind of keys that you guys have seen that I think, you know, I know a lot of our listeners that are business owners, you know, may or may not be in real estate as a primary business. But I know a lot of these principles are probably, you know, overlap any kind of industry.

Oh, for sure. I mean, the number one, and I am super guilty of this, is one of the things I learned over the years. That, you know, how do I put it? You don't want to grow faster than you're ready. I've often seen investors, I had an investor come to me recently and say, I just got this big windfall, we sold a business, I've got all this money, I'm going to put it all in this syndication. And I was like, oh no, you've heard about diversification, right? Nobody gets it. Perfect every time. You've gotta diversify your money, never put it in one place. So that's kind of an example of, you know, same thing in business, just going too big too fast. We saw a bunch of multifamily investors just buying like crazy, buying a multifamily building, fixing it up, flipping it for millions and millions of dollars of profit, and then taking all that money and throwing it back on the table for another gamble. And going bigger and bigger than they were ready for, bigger than they had the systems for. And again, I'm guilty. I got big too fast. My radio show took off before I was ready, before I knew how to invest. And opportunities came that I didn't really understand well enough. That is what I teach today is like, oh boy, understand, you know, what you are investing your money in, Or at least at a minimum, make sure that the people you're investing with understand what they're doing. Don't invest with a first-time, you know, investor or first-time syndicator. Like if they've got a track record, that's where you can get confidence if you don't have the time to truly understand it. So just again, getting too big before you're ready, diversification. When it comes to business and also your investments, like I said, having a super clear plan about where you want to be. Like, what is the ultimate purpose? What's your 5-year, 10-year, 20-year plan? No, nothing ever goes totally as planned, but at least you've got an island that you're swimming towards instead of just paddling in circles like so many people do because they don't know what they really want or where they're headed. So that's the first place to start.

Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, yeah, the principle of diversification and it can apply in so many different areas, you know, and especially as an investor, as a passive investor, I'm actually in the same situation where, you know, someone sells a business and just because you're a good business owner doesn't actually mean you're necessarily a good investor. And right, you know, it might sound, you know, a little bit mean, but a lot of times people that are business owners, they become successful by taking pretty extreme risks sometimes. And many times they're calculated. Many times, you know, it's— they know what they're doing, but it's also— it can take that level of risk to be able to separate yourself to be successful. But in investing, you don't want to have the same approach, right? And I was just talking with a very wealthy investor the other day, he, his, you know, multiple 9-figure net worth. He has a principle. He does not invest more than the minimum of any syndication or fund that he invests in. He can easily do the whole equity stack on probably most of these deals. He just does the minimum. You know, I asked him how many LP investments he had. He said he has 1,000 LP investments, 1,000 K-1s a year. I was like, Well, that's a whole other problem. You have to think about what, but the point, yeah, the point is he, I mean, he's not taking any idiosyncratic risk in those individual deals. And I think there's some, something to be said for that where it's difficult sometimes you've got a ton of cash burning a hole in your pocket, you want to just get rid of it, but it's actually better to go slow, right? And it's, I think the same thing in business, you know, when I used to be a commercial banker, I did a lot of kind of small business loans, a lot of SBA loans. And one of the other stats was really interesting. I can't remember the exact number, but it was a large majority, somewhere like 70 to 80% of businesses that went out of business that failed. Right. So we said 90% of startups will fail. A very vast majority of those don't fail because a lack of paying customers. It's a lack of cash flow. Right. And it's that, you know, not understanding the implications of, like you're saying, growing too fast actually can put a huge stress and strain on cash flow. And that can actually be the bigger problem. It's not for lack of demand or for lack of, you know, customers. It's actually not managing the cash flow well. Is that something you guys saw too, or do you guys talk anything around that in the book?

It's all about the cash flow, right? You know, nothing. Is worse than not having cash flow, not having reserves. And I don't care if you're just running a household or you're running a business or you're investing or you're managing an investment. Things go bad when you don't have enough money to get to the finish line. And that unfortunately happened to me on several occasions. We have a development in Park City, for example. I just had an investor say, man, I thought this was going to be your your best deal because it looked like it. It really looked like the best deal. And I'm so glad. And I require people— I don't require, I suggest strongly that people only invest in my syndications because, yeah, you just never know. With Park City, one of the things that we didn't know is that there would be a pandemic that would shut down our entire development for a year, you know, and we have a development in Costa Rica. Didn't see that coming, that the entire country would shut its borders. For, for a period of time. The— this— yeah, how do you, how do you move things forward in that situation? And then do you have enough reserves to get you through? And we didn't. We had to find creative ways to find the money. But this is— yeah, always just know that if you're going to take risks, have a safety net of enough reserves. I mean, Elon Musk did— has done great interviews on that. He He was down to his last penny when he started. That was one. But, you know, and I think it was probably SpaceX that, you know, he was completely out of money and then he got a call from the government and they were ready to do a deal. But too often entrepreneurs do throw the dice and gamble a lot and sometimes they win. But like you said, 90% times they don't. So investing in someone's business is probably the riskiest thing you can do. You know, that's why I love real estate. It's a little less risky because you have an asset. There's always risk to it, but we've lost money probably 3 or 4 times just investing in someone's business that we believed in and kind of figured we'd lose the money. You know, you've got to sort of be, you could, it's okay to take risks as long as you're okay losing that money, you know, knowing, right? Let's do it. It'll be great. If it doesn't, oh well, you know.

Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. Let's shift a little bit because one of your kind of expertise that you talk on a lot and a lot of people, you know, come to your shows and listen to you on is your commentary in the market. Right. And you're always talking about what's the Fed doing, what's the economy doing, what's housing looking like? You know, talk to some broad strokes. So as we sit right now, we're in the beginning of August. 2024. Actually, I think the Fed's about to have a meeting in very shortly this afternoon. But talk a little bit more broadly on where we sit. What are kind of your expectations on, you know, we're in election year, interest rates, or everyone's hoping that they do a rate cut later this year. You know, talk kind of some broad strokes here for us.

Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, it really just comes down to we had a pandemic, the world was shut down. And it had to get started up again. It takes a while to get machines up and running and people up and running. So a lot of the job growth that we've seen over the past few years has been a return to jobs, but it doesn't reflect that way in the job data. It's just like, oh, we have lots of jobs, as opposed to we're getting back the jobs we lost during COVID along with growth. So the bottom line is right now We are where we would be job growth-wise had there been no COVID. But because it looked so robust over the last few years, there was a belief that we had a really, really hot economy where it was just, we're getting back to normal. So the best way that I could describe today and right now is we're back to normal. But when you come from a return of jobs back to normal, it looks a lot like things are slowing down. So you're going to see more and more reports saying that, you know, there's less job growth. And it's like, great, because we had too much growth. We had so much job growth that for a time there were more jobs than people that wanted them. Then employers have a hard time, as we know, finding employees. And to find employees, they have to pay more. That creates inflation. So that whole cycle, I think we're done. We're done with all of that. We're back to normal. The question is, can the Fed land this plane? Is this a tough plane to land? People keep saying, I think they are. It looks like at this moment they're going to land the plane. That in that meaning that inflation has come down, inflation that was really generated from the pandemic, partly because you had factories shut down, yet people still want those goods. They were passing out money to people. They have money, but there's nothing for them to buy. So it's like, you know, lots of money chasing few goods creates inflation. So again, that has been resolved because factories are back up and running and the stimulus has hopefully stopped somewhat. So that, that's over. But we also had $7 trillion created during 18 months. That's the amount of money that was circulating in 2007. $7 trillion was thrown into our economy. So of course it's going to create inflation. Of course it's going to throw off the numbers. So we're— we saw the Fed really slam on the brakes after seeing that, oh, I guess if we create that money, it will have an impact. Hopefully it would be better if they raised rates or if they cut rates today. They're probably not going to. Other countries already have. They're already on board with that. We're probably not going to see rate cuts to September. Many people think that's too late. And if they keep delaying what they really should be doing, then it could be a harder landing than a soft landing. So let's put it that way. Can't fight market rates and, and they're kind of holding rates higher for longer. Than they probably should. So fingers crossed that they'll get it right. They don't usually. They're usually either too late— they're usually too late to the game. They were too late to the game in hiking rates and probably too late. But in this moment right now, things are pretty good. Coming in for a good landing. If they could just like handle the brakes from here, it would be really good.

Yeah, no, it's so interesting. It'll be so interesting to listen to this episode a few months from now because I think so much is kind of hinging on what does that September, you know, is there a rate cut in September? And it's a great, great point. You know, a lot of people thought the Fed should have reacted a lot quicker, you know, when inflation started, you know, putting out these screeching high numbers. And now that we've had some good readings, and things seem to be going in the right direction, you know, will they hold— will they hold on a little longer, you know? And so it's definitely not a role that I, you know, have envy for, for not being in. But, you know, hopefully they will, you know, move, react quicker, you know, as they start to see some things. And, you know, I was talking with someone the other day where they're mentioning usually, like you said, the Fed is too late to react, both on the upswing and on the downswing on the rates. But a lot of times if they're late, their rate cuts will precipitate a little faster because they have to kind of catch up. Right. So we had a very, very rapid ascent of rates because they were late. And so it's possible, you know, if they do wait a little bit long, you know, based on history, that's not a perfect predictor, but it might actually precipitate a much faster rate cut environment if things start to get concerning.

Yeah. Yeah. So that, and that really affects more short-term rates. It's not mortgage rates what we're talking about. So it absolutely affects commercial real estate, which is normally on adjustable rate, not all, but most commercial properties are. Whereas in the residential sector, the housing market of 1 to 4 units, most people today, as opposed to 2008, most people today are on fixed-rate mortgages. So they're really not feeling any of this. In America, really alone, other countries like Canada, they've been on these adjustable rates and they're kind of feeling what we all felt in 2008 when most homeowners were on adjustable. Their rates adjusted, they couldn't pay it. That's the commercial world today. The rates adjusted is throwing a lot of commercial deals off. And construction, it's just like, ah, I had this great business plan. Well, now the payments are so— it's not working anymore. A lot of construction deals just didn't get done. You know, like mine are struggling because wow, what a difference from, you know, 2% to 6%, 7%, 8% on those loans. The bigger the deal, the harder that is to swallow. So, but, but residential, and this is where so many YouTubers are getting it wrong. Residential people who own homes are on the party boat. You know, there's no distress there.

That's right.

People, they are— they have the lowest payment-to-income ever in history, that in our history, they are— they have the highest equity. They have fixed payments. They have had to qualify for those payments. There are very few unadjustable rates. Any silly headlines that say, oh my gosh, adjustable rates are up and, you know, coming due on residential, like, absolutely not. They're mostly fixed. So to think that residential, that the housing market could see a crash is kind of naive. And uninformed because homeowners have never been in a better position. However, the people trying to get on the party boat, the, the home buyers— and there are at least 15 million millennials today. There's 72 million millennials, but 15 million of them are first-time homebuyer age. They'd really like to get on that party boat. They're having kids, they've got dogs, they don't want to live in downtown apartments anymore, they don't want to live with mom and dad or with the roommates. They want to form a home. And they, they're swimming after that boat and it's getting harder and harder for them. And that's tragic. That's hard. So as we go into this cycle of this rate cutting cycle, hopefully that will also affect mortgage rates that will hopefully come down and allow a few more people onto the boat. Won't be everybody, but every time they lower rates, there's a few more million people that, that can get into the market. And then hopefully all these crazy headlines about a housing crash will go away so people have more confidence getting in. Because over time we've seen the greatest wealth is created in real estate, in real estate and assets basically. Yeah. A lot of this extra money that's floating around is going into assets and into the stock market. So if you're not on the asset train, you're dealing with inflation and not, not on your assets. You know, if you've got assets, you've got inflation and that's okay because they're going up in value. Well, you're just paying more for stuff and that's not— that's no fun. Yeah.

No, I think it's a great point. I think I'm definitely aligned there on expectations for residential. And I've talked to a lot of people that have been sitting on the sidelines that are kind of waiting to get in the market.

Yeah.

And like, I'm just going to wait for the prices to come down or for the big correction to have. And it's—

yeah.

You know, oh, we had a big recession or a big correction in housing, you know, back in 2008, 2009. So we're probably due for one of those. And, you know, yeah, there's been a little correction, but to your point, because so many people are sitting on such low interest rate mortgages that are historically, you know, some of the lowest rates we've ever seen, they're not incentivized to sell anytime soon. So it's restricting supply. Meanwhile, new construction is, is not keeping up with demand. So you got to look at fundamentals of supply and demand alongside of interest rate and market dynamics. But, you know, I'm with you. I think, I think if you're trying to get in, get in now, you probably should have got in last year or the year before that. But, you know, it's, you know, the cost of entry is high and maybe the payment's a little bit higher, maybe the down payment's a little bit higher, but you got, you got to do it because it's the cost to get in and not to be on the party boat. That's what you said.

Yeah, I mean, right now, right now, because there is still a lot of misinformation out there. There's still a lot of people that think there's going to be a housing crash. They just don't understand the fundamentals of it, that there's a massive amount of people that want to get it, want to buy homes, and there's not enough supply. And then you've got no, just hardly any distressed in the housing market. So it just doesn't work that way. Prices don't just come down because people feel like selling their home for less than than they paid for. Doesn't work that way. Oh well.

Yeah, going back to the interest rate, so, you know, we've had an inverted yield curve for a long time, um, where basically short-term rates are higher than long-term rates. That, that in most instances in the past has predicted a recession or kind of precedes a recession. What's your opinion? Do, do you feel Kind of your earlier point that we might have the soft landing that the Fed is hoping for. Do you feel it's inevitable that we have a recession? If we do have a recession, what does that maybe look like? You know, whether it's in housing or commercial real estate or otherwise, what do you feel like? We're in the clear. I said as of today, you know, things were pretty good. What are the, you know, external risks out there that could create a bigger recession and Or do you think we're in the clear as of right now?

It seems, it seems like there are more tools to prevent recessions than ever before. And it seems that our government and the Fed just really will— they'll use those tools to prevent it. I think a recession could actually be a good thing in terms of resetting values and makes it more affordable. But I just don't believe that, that, that, that will happen. It's too easy to just print our way out of it. And that's what we've done. And, and we have no choice anymore as a country. You saw that our, our national debt's up to a new record level, and nobody wants to cut anything. Um, we don't have enough money to tax people to, to, to get through this. So the only solution that the government has is to continue to inflate the money supply, to continue to print. And every time it's more, it's more, and it's more, and it's more because they have no option. Now, when you're inflating the money supply, you are inflating asset, you're basically lowering cost of debt because money becomes worth less. But assets seem and appear to be worth more even though they're really the same thing. It's just that you need more dollars for them. So, you know, the bottom line is I don't— I think there's enough stops. I mean, should there be a massive crash because of all these defaults on commercial loans? Absolutely. But there's not. So like, what's happening? Oh, there's stuff happening behind the scenes. You know, there's, there's extending, you know, they're doing the extend and pretend game. They're just allowing people to maybe not make payments for a while, or they're having equity, you know, equity groups come in and take priority in those deals. But you're not seeing the collapse that would normally be there without intervention. So it just seems like there's more and more quote-unquote tools to prevent recessions. And so to answer your question, the risk is being the one in the water. That's all I can say, that trying to swim after the thing that is evading you, that's getting away from you because of a manipulated system. We're not going back to the '20s, 19— and I do mean like the 1920s where Every time we have a recession, there's new stops that are put in place to prevent it next time. The people who get hurt the most are the people who don't own assets. That's the bottom line. It's the people that, if things cost more, if bananas and eggs cost more, I don't know about you, I don't even look at my receipts. I don't even know what I'm paying for eggs. If you ask me what I paid for eggs, I actually, I do. Lots of eggs, but, um, when I get organic and they're expensive, like, there are people on fixed incomes who absolutely know what it costs to buy eggs and it matters to them. And when that price goes up, they can't eat. And, and so it's the— this whole financial system hurts the poor and those on fixed incomes. So I don't care what it takes for you to get into assets, you just got to do it. You know, when Rich and I started, it wasn't easy then. It was in 1997. There was a recession then. It wasn't like you could just go out and buy a house. It's never been easy. It's never been easy to invest. It takes self-control. It takes having a plan. But we decided to do it in 1997 when we got married. And I rented out like 3 rooms in our house. I turned it into a fourplex. I had a guest room that I turned into a— it was before Airbnb even, but it was like I knew that this is how wealth is created and I was willing to do what it takes. And people are, young people are doing it today. They're house hacking, you know, they are getting JV partners. I mean, there's lots of ways to get in. Having a side job and saving that money so that you can invest. But, but spending money on $1,000 concerts in Europe, which so many kids are doing, that's not the way. That's fun though. That's good life. But try to put some away for investments too.

Absolutely. Where are you seeing some of the biggest opportunities in real estate right now? So a lot of, like you said, there's been some challenges in commercial real estate, different asset classes in different markets. But we haven't seen the apocalypse that maybe some people were predicting a year or so ago. And, you know, the more as we kind of go further into this, I'm probably the same opinion where I don't think we're going to see— if we do have a recession, I don't think it's going to be very deep or very long. Right. And if prices do come down more, there's so much capital out there waiting to get back in the market. And I think we're already seeing some of the early signs of that capital is, you know, thinking we're close to the bottom. Some very big players have started writing very large checks to buy assets again. Right. And so to me, it feels like we're kind of getting to a point where, you know, it's a good buying time. And but you have to look— you have to kind of muddle through some of the you know, the headlines, some of the challenges, see past some of the, you know, things from yesterday and find the opportunity. So where are you seeing them? Because you guys have, you know, done a lot of different things. You invest in lots of different asset classes and, you know, you're not a one-size-fits-all, you know, or hammer everything is a nail. You can do lots of different things. So where do you, where do you see the biggest opportunities right now?

Yeah, I mean, for 20 years we've been helping people build real estate portfolios in the fastest growing markets in the US and now a little bit in Europe. But it hasn't— our strategy hasn't changed very much, which is kind of interesting. What we look for are where jobs are moving to, and generally they're looking to move to more affordable places where there's a lot of land, where they can have their employees come and have a nice lifestyle because it's cheaper to live there. They are looking for business-friendly environments because COVID taught us a lot about where you could do business and where you couldn't. So we're seeing a lot of migration to the Southeast for that reason. I've been hearing reports that as people get to the Southeast and they feel like it's too hot now, they're kind of moving back up to the Midwest. Although you just told me you're having a heat wave. Well, supposedly Ohio and Michigan are less, are more resistant to climate change 'cause of the Great Lakes, keeps it cool. I don't know, I'm not a scientist. But so right now the migration patterns are to the Southeast as we're seeing. I'm sitting here in California, Elon Musk moving a couple more companies to Texas. This is a pattern that's been going on for 20 years. We started investing in Texas 20 years ago because we saw that pattern of Texas put a flag in the ground saying, do business here, we'll give you tax credits, we'll make it easy for you. And businesses listened. And that's still the case, obviously the case for Florida and a lot of the areas in the Southeast and Midwest. So that's mainly for on the real estate side that were, you know, kind of bullish.

Got it. Very cool, Kathy. So fun to have you on again. And it's always, always a pleasure to catch up and see what you're working on and your perspectives. What's the best way for folks that want to hear more about what you're seeing and kind of get into your ecosystem a little bit and your podcasts and books, other things? What's the best way for people to find out more?

Yeah, just realwealth.com is our website. Real like real estate, wealth like your wealth. It's free to join and then you get access to like 500 webinars that are educational. There's investment counselors that are happy to kind of help you create a plan. And then of course, The Real Wealth Show is my podcast and our new book, Scaling Smart, I guess could be found wherever you, wherever you get your books.

Awesome. We'll definitely put some links down and yeah, thanks so much for coming on. It's been really fun.

Thank you so much.

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