How to Invest Like an American Dynasty: The Hilton Family Empire feat. Mark Miller

Most people don't know that, and they have no clue. If you look at low volatility stocks, meaning stocks that don't have massive swings, and you look at the S&P 500 over the last 30 years, low volatility investing beats investing in quote the best stocks or the best growth stocks. The problem is growth stocks are extremely volatile. So in the years that they're down, you have to sit around and wait till they make up the losses or how they went down, and you just lost valuable time where you could have been making returns.

A lot are investing really haphazardly, randomly investing in things with no kind of system, buckets, frameworks for percentage of allocation portfolio. The next level of investing is how does that impact your tax situation, right?

Most retail investors, they have a short-term mindset, whereas really, really good wealthy investors have a 10 or 15-year time frame. Overarching is safety and patience.

Welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. This is your host Ben Frazier, and today I'm joined by Mark Miller. Very excited for this conversation. Mark is the president and CEO of Hilton Tax and Wealth Advisors, and brought him on because you may have heard of the Hilton name before, but he actually has written several books for investors, been in the investing world for many, many decades, and has worked with high net worth families helping do tax planning, investing, kind of the whole approach, and wanted to bring him on as an expert because this is exactly what we talk about all the time on this podcast, is understanding what the ultra-wealthy are doing and maybe what they're doing differently than a lot of, you know, I'll say everyday millionaires. And the access to things that these families have been doing for a long time has really expanded to a broader set of people.

This is the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast where we uncover the alternative investments and strategies that billionaires use to grow wealth. The tools and tactics you'll learn from this podcast will make you a better investor and help you build legacy wealth. Join us as we dive into the world of alternative investments, uncover strategies of the ultra-wealthy, discuss economics, and interview successful investors.

Mark, thanks so much for coming on the show. Super excited to have you.

Well, thank you, man. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah. So you've written a few books and you just released one. I literally got it in the mail this morning, so I was hoping I could read it before, but super excited to look through that later. Called Hilton Wealth: How to Invest Like an American Dynasty. You've written another book called The Tax-Free Business Owner. Give us a little background, Mark, on yourself, on what you do with your practice, how you started working with the Hilton family and really what you're doing now. Give us the whole background here.

Well, so you did hit on— I've been in the business consulting, financial consulting business for, you know, about 30 years now. So a lot of experience. And over the course of years, I was fortunate to meet some individuals that are more on the trust side or institutional side of the business. We work through a lot of different trust companies. And so forth. And several years ago, I met a few of the Hiltons and did a lot of things with them. They've made me money. I've made them money. And Hilton Tax and Wealth Advisors is kind of a, a spinoff of the Hilton Family Office, which I'm the manager of. And Brad Hilton and I— Brad Hilton is Conrad Hilton's grandson. So for those that are still a little confused, yes, it is the Hilton family, but it has— we have nothing to do with the Hilton Hotel chain. This is not about, about hotels at all. But Brad and I had a real passion for how can we, how can we bring some of these more advanced ideas more, a little more down to Main Street so you didn't have to have $20, $30, $40 million to, to be able to participate in some of these things. And that's where Hilton Tax and Wealth Advisors came, and now we still deal with very high net worth individuals, but we also— people that are more, you know, more average investors that maybe have $500,000, $1,000,000 to $5 billion portfolios, work with them also and just give them access that they wouldn't normally have to these advanced planning concepts. Hilton's are some of the best in the world at tax mitigation. So we have a whole bunch of proprietary Hilton strategies in the Hilton Financial Network and just be able to— and just, we just had a passion for this. How can we just make these type of things more readily accessible to even folks just even with $10 million often don't have access to, to these type of strategies. So, so that's what in my most recent book, Hilton Wealth, that you just talked about is kind of how the wealthiest of the wealthiest invest and how they tap into things that they, they normally can't unless they have just huge, vast sums of money.

Yeah, well, that's very, very cool background and love what you're sharing there. I think we're very aligned in that goal. And, you know, I haven't been in the space as long as you have, but even in my time, it's— it seems like a pretty big shift towards access for more of these types of investment opportunities, right, that were historically limited to the ultra-wealthy and the country club members and those that, you know, had access to the right people and the right opportunities. But other than that, it was pretty hard to get access to. And, you know, from most of my study and reviewing a lot of, you know, the wealthy families, big endowments, they generally have heavy allocations into private equity, into direct ownership of real estate, into, you know, credit and lending type of things. And obviously they have capital in the public markets and most investors do, but it usually makes up, you know, not the whole thing. And we're most, you know, say everyday millionaires or you know, in a 60/40 portfolio and set it and forget it, which nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there are some disadvantages that you have. So talk about from, from your perspective, kind of being in the wealth advisory, wealth consulting business for 30 years, what have you kind of seen as a shift and do you resonate with what I shared? Have you seen something different? What are you seeing from just a kind of a shift of the industry towards some more of these kind of alternatives, private, access, etc.?

Well, I think it probably has to do with the information revolution. Yeah. And just that people are getting more access here. They're learning more. And I also, I think the industry has changed and realized before, kind of the institutional side ignored the retail side because they felt like there wasn't enough money there, or it's not in big enough chunks, you might say. And I think they've just opened up their eyes. Financial crisis had a little bit to do with it in 2008 and said, hey, there's a big market here. And so more like when we work with issuers now, I will tell you, 10, 15 years ago when I would work with issuers, they wouldn't even consider doing a minimum of less than $1 million or $2 million or $5 million even. And now we've got, you know, offerings that sometimes are at $50,000, which is incredible. And I think, I think, you know, the industry, the institutional side just realized, hey, there's money to be made there too. And how all we had to do— and that's one of the things actually that Brad Hilden and I are working on when we talk to a lot of these issuers, vendors and everything— is to say some of them still think, well, we can't do that because we don't have a mechanism to be able to have lots of clients or whatever. And then when we, when we walk through it with them, they're like, oh, wait a second, we can do this. So I think it's just more people realizing it on the institutional side that it's okay to, to wade over into that retail side. They're still going to be— do very well and, and be profitable with it.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it probably kind of coincides with some of the regulation changes, too, with, you know, Reg D and 506 offerings that actually allow public marketing to where it's, you know, before when you're kind of going through broker-dealer channels or, you know, it's preexisting relationships, it's probably harder to get meaningful—

very good point, very good point—

smaller checkwriters. So yeah, that's, that's, that's very interesting to understand from the issuer standpoint of seeing the opportunity from bringing in, you know, a broader set of capital with maybe smaller dollar amounts. But if they can aggregate it more, it makes sense and provides more access. Talk a little bit about— so the name of your new book is— or the kind of subtitle is How to Invest Like an American Dynasty. So talk a little bit about just your experience with working with some ultra-wealthy, and specifically the Hilton family. What, what have they done differently, or what has kind of stood out to you in learning their approach, learning their frameworks and strategies that maybe is different than what most people think about when they're investing?

Yeah. Well, overarching is safety and patience, and which we've heard before. Okay. Warren Buffett talks about this. You know, there's a famous story about him going into a meeting in Wall Street of these hotshot young guys that were— had these investment portfolios that were killing it and they were making 60% per year. One of the kids got up there, you know, you know, maybe he was 30 years old and he starts going, you know, Mr. Buffett. And he's, of course, Warren's got all his posse with him and everything. And he said, Mr. Buffett, hey, look at these returns and da da da da, you're going to make this and Berkshire Hathaway's going to do that and everything. And then he kind of let him go on. He's a polite man. And he said, okay, how are you going to protect my money? And the The kids started going white in the face because didn't have an answer for that. Well, no, no, no. We're talking about all these great returns and everything. So the point I'm making is the difference between like retail investors and kind of institutional and kind of this what we call— what I call in the money in my book, the smart money guys, is they, they focus on risk first in more holistic portfolios. And then, then they will focus on return. And how can I illustrate that? Well, if you look at how the retail side of the business is set up, like what are the biggest sellers? Mutual funds, right? People understand them. They're simple to understand. Well, how do they sell them? The 1, 3, 5, 10-year performance. Pick a mutual fund that has the best 1, 3, 5, 10-year performance and you can find the best mutual fund. Institutional investors don't work that. First and foremost, they're going to look for safety. Okay. I'm not saying that they don't also take risks, but many of the wealthiest of the wealthiest, the vast majority of their portfolios are very safe and very secure in various ways, some traditional ways, but also some protect their portfolios in, in, in different ways that are only available on the institutional side. So they might have, you know, 50, 60% of their portfolio, very safe, very secure, or maybe even 70%. And then they're taking risk with that 20% or that 30%. And so if something really goes wrong, they haven't, they haven't dropped off the Forbes Most Wealthy list. You know, that's one of the, they always say, and you, you've heard this before, I'm sure, Dan. I mean, and the rich get richer. Okay. And we see that in the business that we're in, that all the wealthy people I work with, generally they don't go backwards. Right. It's because they are very, very smart about risk and protecting good portions of their portfolio. And then they'll, they'll let their winners run with a portion of their portfolio where they can often, you know, it's about diversification too, because you can have 10% of your portfolio. If it's a phenomenal investment, it can make you in your entire portfolio of 90% of it. Is only making 3% per year, but that 10% makes, makes 30 or 40, then it boosts massively, boosts your portfolio, portfolio performance, performance, and gives you a good portfolio.

Yeah.

So that's probably the biggest thing. And then having patience in letting, you know, putting well-designed portfolios and letting the investments do what they need to do and they supposed to— they're supposed to do. And, you know, most retail investors, they have a short-term mindset. What can— what am I going to make the next year or two? Whereas really, really good wealthy investors have a 10 or 15-year timeframe. Totally different on that.

Interesting. And how does that change the expectations or how does that change what they do? Right. Because, yes, having a long-range mindset is going to shift what you're looking at, what your expectations are. You don't necessarily care as much about, you know, we're in a unique cycle, part of the cycle right now in real estate.

Right.

Which is a lot of what we do in commercial real estate where interest rates are much higher than they were a couple of years ago. It's putting a lot of pressure on values, a lot of pressure on just, you know, maintaining positive cash flow, etc. But if you understand the long-term drivers, right, of— I'm still a firm believer that we have an undersupply of housing as one example, right, to where, you know, over the, over the next few years, these things will even out. Interest rates will hopefully come back down at some point. And, you know, it's more of a blip on the radar versus where it feels everything's fundamentally changed.

Yes.

Is that kind of how it impacts it or what other ways does it kind of impact with when you expand your time horizons?

Yeah, and I think it is. I think when you look at the most successful investors, they generally are not freaking out a lot and letting massive emotions get in their portfolio because they've already determined, hey, I'm looking with this portfolio, whatever I'm doing right now, I'm looking out 8, 10, 12 years. So again, like you said, the little blips and even the freakout times, you know, 2022, 2020, all of that, those times it's like, okay, this is going to happen, but guess what? I'm still on track. Let it do what it needs to do over this time. But then also designing a portfolio. And Brad Hilton and I have worked on this extensively. We put together the Hilton True Wealth portfolios that are kind of our way of designing how the Hiltons have invested, where we have kind of some unique buckets. We have a lot of safety, security, and then we do have some kind of institutional base managed money. And then we have a bucket that's private equity, alternative investments. So, we can kind of limit that freak out too, because, you know, we talk sometimes about a teeter-totter. And what I mean by that is when you look at your investments, you need to look at them on a teeter-totter as far as safe risk and reward is concerned. And you want to have less on the risk side where that teeter-totter happens to, you know, take you so down you just sit down and you never pop back up. And you still, again, you still have good potential on the return side, on the upside, but you want to be able to go like this, but have— I want to see more, and we always want to see more on the side of the teeter-totter. On rewards or returns long-term and then minimize that risk. And in general, that has people— keeps their emotions under control too. So just having a well-balanced portfolio and then having that emphasis on safety and security first because the returns are just going to happen. And you know this, Ben, because you guys work on the institutional side too. The returns are just going to be there. Okay? We know there's tons of opportunity. There's tons of types of different asset classes and spaces we can invest in. So, let's focus on our risk first and then our reward we know is just going to come over time.

Yeah.

Patience.

I mean, it's so simple, but it's such a powerful reframing of how you're looking at investments, right? Because I've seen this so many times, especially in what I kind of call the syndication bubble, where all of a sudden, you know, everybody and their mom became a capital raiser a couple of years ago, right? And in 2020 and 2021 and what I saw a lot of investors do, and it's hard not to because it is investing can be emotional. Right? And yeah, latch on to the headline returns. Here's the projected IRR or the projected equity multiple on this investment. And that's the primary decision factor that they're bringing into that, that decision. Right. But the problem is you're not adjusting that rate of return or the projected rate of return relative to the risk that you're taking. Right. And so I always talk about returns are important to understand what the upside is, what the potential is. But you have to adjust that by the risk you're taking. Yeah, right. A, a good 20% return, but a super risky, highly levered, you know, risky business plan is very, very different than, you know, low double-digit, you know, safe position, the capital stack, you know, stabilized, you know, asset in a big market or whatever it is. There's, there's very different things that you have to take into account when you're adjusting for that. So I love that you said that because I think it's so— it's easy to say, it's hard to do, right? Because as humans, we're naturally drawn to the, you know, the sexy deal or the big upside. And yeah, but you don't always need to swing for the fences, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

If you just get singles and doubles consistently, the power of compounding and really the power of not losing money. Yeah.

Patience. The power of patience.

Yeah, patience. It's such a powerful factor.

Yeah.

Talk a little bit about, you know, you talk about in your book embracing the power of low volatility investing. What does that mean and what is the power behind that?

Well, so the concept is— so let's just look at it from a stock perspective. Okay. So if you look at low volatility stocks, meaning stocks that didn't have massive— don't have massive swings, and you look at the S&P 500 over the last 30 years, low volatility investing beats investing in, quote, the best stocks or the best growth stocks. Okay. Now, most people don't know that and they have no clue. But I'm talking about like, you know, of the old days when IBM was doing well, the IBM, the Procter Gamble, all of those type of things. Those in those stocks beat the rest of the S&P 500 by about 2% per year. Now, why is that? Is because when you understand— and this kind of goes back to the risk thing that I was telling and teaching people about this and what the wealthy know, the really wealthy know, and probably the wealthiest of this know the best— it's again about minimizing losses. Because when, like, for instance, growth stocks, they seem like those are the runner, those are the ones that are going to make us the best returns over time. The problem is growth stocks are extremely volatile. So in the years that they're down, you have to sit around or sit around and wait till they make up the losses or how they went down. And you just lost valuable time where you could have been making returns. And you understand what I'm saying? Yep. So it's kind of a simple concept, but people don't really understand it. So it's really the concept with the Hilton True Wealth Portfolios. We want to massively minimize, in many cases, depending on how we design it, almost completely eliminate the downside potential. So then we're going to get a more, we're going to get a smoother portfolio return over time, and then we're just focused on how we can average returns on the upside and not focus on all these losses. Okay.

Yeah.

So, so, so I was kind of using the example of a stock, but in general, your portfolio, we believe we apply that to, to portfolios, the low volatility, minimize the losses, and then you're going to automatically pick up more return over the years because we haven't had all those loss, the loss of those years when we couldn't be making returns.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's again going back to going for the home runs. It's great to see a stock maybe up 50% in a year, but if it's down the next year, 20%, another, another year, 30%. Yeah, you're not really getting ahead. And well, I think a lot of people don't understand is, you know, the, the simple math of losses. If you have a 50% loss on an investment, it takes a 100% gain just to get back to your original investment, right? So even— yeah, yeah, back to even. So the losses are a more powerful negative driver than you just get those consistent compounding growth working for you. It actually usually a much— you could be farther ahead than trying to go for these big swings and having to take these big hits too.

I was just working with a high net worth individual today And he just came on board with the True Wealth Portfolios. And what we talked about was boring. Yep.

Yeah.

And it really— hey, it would be wonderful if we could count on, hey, you invest your money in one private equity deal and you make, you know, well, average 50% per year and it's fantastic and wonderful. But that's not reality. Okay. And so what we're going to do is design portfolios that are are about patience, that are kind of a little more sleep at night, kind of boring portfolios, they're still going to make, depending on the mix, they're still going to make, you know, 8 to 10, if not 10 to 12% per year. They're still going to do great. They're going to make great returns. But, but they're going to be somewhat boring. Okay. Yeah. And, and again, so diversification, you know, just look at some of the, well, the greatest investors ever. I mean, you could just read a couple of Oh, Warren Buffett's books. You know, he's great about this. Low volatility investing. Pick great stuff and just be patient and let it do its thing. Okay? And not to say, because Berkshire Hathaway definitely has their risk that they're taking. Okay? But most of what they're doing is downright boring. And they've made billions and billions and billions of dollars being boring.

Yeah, that's— it is hard because again, go back to the emotional thing. We kind of want things to be interesting, but sometimes interesting doesn't always equate to good investment, right?

Not with investing. And I've been around, I've been around the block with a lot. I just remember dealing with clients coming in off of 2000 and off of the 2000 dot-com bubble in 2008. And I mean, literally people coming into my office that had been down 60 or 70% of their portfolio and literally kind of the blood had been drained out of them. I mean, and, you know, there is no reason why anyone should have to endure that. And on the retail side of the business especially, they pound away, don't worry, don't worry about it. Just keep, you know, just keep buying, keep buying. And I'm not saying, because there are people that can make money over there, but most of the people can't withstand that, can't withstand that kind of volatility. And even some of my wealthiest clients, they just don't want that. I mean, they want to go live their lives, enjoy their lives, do what they do, do their philanthropy, play golf, you know, whatever it is, and not have to worry that they just lost 30% in 3 months.

Yeah.

You know, so, So in general, I mean, that's our philosophy. You know, some people, we do have people that come in, some people are huge gamblers and they just want to gamble. But I just, my experience is it just long term, that doesn't work. Yeah. So, you know, that's kind of why we do what we do and that's why Brad Hilton and I are kind of on this soapbox and just passionate about teaching people these concepts so they can like what the Hiltons have done. So they can just have so much more peace in their life and focus on living their lives and not, you know, worrying about all their, you know, financial concerns.

Yeah. Talk a little bit about— you mentioned the True Wealth portfolio or system that's kind of modeled after what the Hiltons have done. How is that different than maybe the traditional 60/40 stock bond portfolio? What are you guys doing in that? How are you creating these buckets?

I know, I know you haven't read my book yet, but there's a chapter in there kind of trashing the 60/40. And here's the problem, because it doesn't work anymore. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. But it sells. It still sells because it's easy to sell. The retail side is still using it. And I'll be honest with you, some of our money managers are really good. It can still somewhat design portfolios like that, but they're very aware that, that putting, you know, a portion in stocks and a portion of bonds is not— is a recipe for disaster. Now. It's just we live— we're in a different economy, we're in different markets. It just doesn't work anymore. But I see, again, I see people that come in and that have $10 million portfolios. And guess what? It is 60/40.

It is 60% stocks, 40%.

Now more what I see is usually 80/20, which is really bad. But what, what we do is— and we're not saying because we take a portion of portfolios and we'll put it in managed money. But sometimes we can put it in managed money where we can put it almost all in stocks because we have the rest of the portfolio very safe and very secure. And then we've got really great money managers that even are pretty good at hedging. Most everything we do, we've got this vein of safety running through it. Probably the two big veins are safety and, you know, tax reduction and everything that we do. But we, we can, we can afford to do that. Take, say, 10% or 20% of the portfolio and let it kind of run because the rest of it is in buckets that are very safe, secure. We usually, we have a, we have like a guaranteed bucket, which has all kinds of different investment options in it that are guaranteed based on the institutional side. Some of them are on the retail side too. And then we have a guaranteed income bucket. Usually that's private equity offerings. That have some surety attached to them. We might— they may be guaranteed income, but they'll, they'll be backed up by assets or liens or whatever. So people wouldn't lose their money if something goes wrong. Then we'll have like that equity bucket that will do managed money and then we'll have a private equity and alternative bucket. I mean, that's very simplistic. That's high level. And that's what we talk about in the book. But really, we can find those 4 different buckets tend to balance things out, and we're going to put a pretty good chunk in those first 2 buckets and make sure things are very, very safe and secure. And then the other buckets, we're going to be very selective about what we put in those. I didn't even mention because they are so averse to risk, they've learned their lesson over the decades that often when we work with issuers, we just developed and they developed relationships over the years. Where the issuers know that if they're going to work with us and we're going to bring funds on board, that they've got to figure out some kind of level of surety for us. Meaning there has to be like, let's say it's a— we're not going to invest in some startup business. Okay. Right. It needs to be a business maybe that needs capital that's right on the cusp. But we only will only provide so much capital that they can back up with, with tangible assets or something like that. So again, if something goes wrong, and most everything we do, we do it that way. And we can still, we still have great upside potential with those things. It's just that the majority of things that we put on our platform are going to have that basic surety attached to them also. But they'll still be in those buckets. They'll still be at-risk buckets. But we're going to try to make them, you know, let the winners run as much as we can, but get as much protection as we can too.

That makes sense. Yeah. And if you have a portion of your portfolio that's in these safer, more secure, more boring vanilla type investments, you can afford to take a little more risks on the other things because it's not— it's not gambling at that point. It's not putting all your eggs in one basket and hoping that this startup becomes the next Uber or whatever. Right. How do you view the percentage allocations in these different buckets? Because you mentioned you work with people as, you know, as small as $200,000 net worth all the way up to, you know, ultra high net worth. You know, I would assume that the kind of lower net worth, you know, the more you want to kind of build up to until you start getting to bigger numbers to take more risks. When does private equity, when does real estate kind of come into the mix? And are you ever shifting more allocation to those over time or you kind of keep—

we generally have to have a minimum of like a half a million dollar portfolio to kind of well balance it out. And it goes in all ways and it kind of depends on what the clients want to depends on their risk level because we do complete risk profiles on everyone. And we want to see where they are on a risk spectrum. Some people want to take more risk and don't want as much as kind of that foundational safety and security base. And you will— and there is a risk-reward, there's no doubt. We have some portfolios where people are willing to take a little more risk. There's still quite a bit of safety in some of those portfolios too, though, that will make 15% to 20% per year. Over time. Okay. So it kind of depends. It's hard, but there's no, and I've had this before. Well, what percentage should I put here? What percent? It really depends on the client. But we prefer, we always prefer to go for a reasonable rate of return and let's put as much in safe and secure things in that boring part that we've talked about. As possible.

Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Let's kind of round it out here with tax mitigation. So your first book that you wrote was The Tax-Free Business Owner, which— that's a pretty compelling title, right? So, yeah, you know, how does that come into play? So you talk about safety, security, but also tax mitigation is a big part of this. And, you know, what I see a lot is a Well, there's a whole lot of things, but a lot of people are investing really haphazardly. Number one, they're just kind of randomly investing in things with no kind of system buckets, you know, frameworks for percentage of allocation portfolio. But the next level, you know, of investing is how does that impact your tax situation, right? Because there's different types of losses that you can get if you're investing in private equity or real estate. but it only goes against certain types of gains or certain types of income. And so, you know, you want to have a tax-aware mindset when you're investing because one investment might work really well for one person that generates X type of income, but it might not work great for, for you because you generate Y type of income, right? So yeah, how do you guys kind of view tax mitigation? And as you, you know, start to increase your net worth as an investor, How should that kind of play in the allocation of investments that you're making?

Well, the Hilton Financial Network has over 138 different distinct strategies we use. Some of them are bulwark strategies that are, you know, in the deep, in the codes and things like that. And there's two sides of it. A lot of financial advisors you work with say we do tax planning because they'll, you know, make sure you're in a retirement, put money in a retirement account. Hey, it's tax-deferred, things like that. Well, that really isn't tax planning. Real tax planning is actually working with current income and being proactive. All of our clients that come on board and do our portfolios, we do a proactive tax plan for them to reduce their current taxes, which is massive. Okay. You know, yesterday I just worked with a client. We saved over $1 million in their first year in taxes. Now, We, we say the tax-free business owner, generally we don't get people to the zero tax bracket the first year. Sometimes we do. It depends on strategies we use, but we might save you about 50% their first year and then over 3 or 4 years when they engage with us, we'll get them to the zero tax bracket just with utilizing plans, not more money coming out of your pocket, not moving your investments around, all of that, but just with the strategies we know and, and, you know, ethical, moral strategies that stand up to IRS scrutiny that we could put in a designed plan, which is huge. It's an actual design, formalized tax plan for them. So that's huge there. Then there's the other side of it. When I say that the tax vein and the Elkins have been great about this because they've been— they're some of the best in the world at tax mitigation stuff. On the investment side, always having an eye towards how is this going to affect the taxes, not just this year, but 10 years from now, 15 years, 20 years. And so we're always looking at ways that we can shift assets, do things we need to do to put people in a position when it comes time where they're going to need to draw a lot of income that we make as much of it as tax-free as possible. And that's not just That's with designing various plans and various ways to do that, not just putting your money in municipal bonds, which is most what most people think about on tax-free income. So, so, so it's, it's having that vein run through everyone. So, and then design a portfolio to actually probably make less in the taxes completely once they get to a certain point, you know, 15, 20 years down, down the road.

Got it. Well, Mark, this has been really, really interesting and I love, love some of the things you shared. What's the best way for people to get their hands on the new book, your other book? Yeah. And learn more about what you guys do at Hilton Tax and Wealth Advisors.

Real simple. They could just go to HiltonWealth.com and you can shoot us an email there. You can go to service@hiltonwealth.com and say, hey, I'd like this book or that book. I think we have some pop-ups. I don't pay a whole lot of attention. I probably should pay more attention. But there's, I think there's some pop-ups there and so forth that you can order the books. They're complimentary. We'll send them out to you for no fee at all. And you can take a look. And then next step is if you're interested, we can get together and chat a little bit and See if we might be able to help you.

Awesome. Well, Mark, really appreciate it and been really fun to have you on. Thanks so much for coming.

Oh, well, thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thanks, Ben.

This is the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast where we uncover the alternative investments and strategies that billionaires use to grow wealth. The tools and tactics you'll learn from this podcast will make you a better investor and help you build legacy wealth. Join us as we dive into the world of alternative investments, uncover strategies of the ultra-wealthy, discuss economics, and interview successful investors.