Live Interview with John Maxwell and Bob Fraser

Well, our guest here needs no introduction, but it's an honor to give him one anyway. John Maxwell is a number one New York Times bestselling author, multiple times, legendary leadership coach, and someone who spent decades helping high-capacity people grow personally, professionally, and spiritually. He's trained millions of leaders in 180 countries, advised Fortune 500 CEOs, heads of state, entrepreneurs all over the world. What I most appreciate about John is the ability to connect timeless wisdom with practical insight, especially when it comes to stewardship and stewarding your influence and resources well. And John and I personally have a connection because we're both passionate about global transformation, values-based global transformation. And in today's conversation, we're going to be digging into a unique angle— how the principles of leadership and personal growth relate to wealth building, financial wisdom, and legacy. Well, John, thank you for joining me today.

Oh my gosh, Bob, it's so good to be with you again. And I always look forward when I can do something like this with a good friend. And you help a lot of people, including me. So let's help some other people today. What do you say?

There you go. Well, you've coached thousands of top CEOs and executives with leadership principles, obviously. What leadership principles translate to being a good financial steward of your wealth?

Well, I think first of all, understanding that leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. When I started training leaders, I wanted to understand that it wasn't title, that it wasn't position, that it was really the ability to influence people. So when you ask how does that translate over to finances of life, you know, Bob, we all have a story to tell. Every person that's going to watch this and be with us, we all have a story to tell. And what I emphasize is the fact that we get to tell it with our influence. And I've just recently been challenging people to tell their story with their money. And this is big. So if you'll give me maybe a couple of minutes to just kind of go there. Please. And then you could take off. You've heard me do this. In fact, you and I were flying, I think to Central America one time, and I was talking to you about how I'm challenging people now to pick a number. You know, in other words, what's your number that you need to live very comfortably on? I'm not wanting anybody to have a Spartan life, but there's a number. And the reason I tell people to pick a number is because If we don't, we become greedy. We do. I do. Human nature is to want more. I don't know how much it is, but it's never enough. And so the moment you pick a number, you begin to satisfy the soul. You begin then to say, I've determined what that number is. And then the question is, what are you going to do with the number above that number? And this is life-changing to me. And I, again, you have to understand, I'm new at this. I'm working at it myself. Margaret and I picked a number, so we have a number. And what that means to us is the fact this is what we live on. Everything else above what we live on, we made a decision that half of it would go to charitable causes. And you can do that when you pick a number. See, if I don't pick a number, what happens is the next time I get some more money, it's kind of like, well, I could invest it over here. My gosh, I could go buy that. And so now I'm back into this game of more stuff. And I just say, when you pick a number, you don't get distracted and it frees you up now to tell a great story. Think of it this way. I pick a number. Now I'm above that number, and everything above that number is where my most impactful story will be, because this is out of abundance. I mean, just think about it. Well, first of all, I guess I could tell a selfish story and say I picked a number and everything I got above that number I just spent on me. So I could have a kind of like a John story, I suppose. But what would happen if I said all of a sudden, I'm going to give this to causes I believe in and to a mission that I can live out. I all of a sudden, I'm going to write an incredible story with my life that has great influence and impact because that number could be pretty sizable after we pick our number. Here's the bottom line on it. If I don't pick a number so that I can give above that, My story is never going to be maxed and as great as it could be. That I know for sure. Picking the number, picking a number frees me up and not to be distracted, but it also lets me go now to a story of incredible significance in my life. And so when I think of leadership as influence, nothing more, nothing less, that's what it really is. Well, what do we do? We have our time influences things, our dollars influence things. And so because you're really kind of concentrating on people and the financial side of their life, I just think picking a number is just very important for me, for you, for everybody.

That is so good. And it's just— then everything else we do can help others. I love the way you put it in the foreword of the book. You said financial success isn't about wealth. It's about the freedom to impact others.

Totally. And we can only impact others if we give it away. Yeah. There's a world of difference between success and significance. I want everybody that's watching you and listening to you, Bob, I want them to be very successful. I want them to do very, very well. I'm going to be the head cheerleader. Go use your gifts. Go use your talents. Multiply those suckers. I want you to be successful. But success usually is pretty much about me and what I've accomplished. I mean, it's kind of like the Maxwell story. The story I'm talking about has to be bigger than me. One is too small of a number. One is too small of a number to achieve greatness, Bob. It just is. I mean, it's wonderful what one person can do, but every person that's watching, listening understands that it's through partnerships and it's through coming together that we multiply and compound everything in life. And so what's very exciting about this is the moment that I understand that one's too small. I mean, if I'm going to climb Mount Everest, I'm going to have to have a team. Hmm. Now, if I'm going to just go take a hill, I can go get my shorts and gym shoes on, and I can go up and spend a couple hours and take the hill. But the big stuff, you got to have other people with you. So I have to get away from success, which is about me, and start living a life of significance. Which is with others and for others. It's with others and it's for others. Now I could do Mount Everest stories. You know, now you talk about a story. I mean, if I tell you, hey, I want you to know I climbed a hill the other day out there in Kansas City where you live, you'd say, well, I don't need to hear that story. A lot of people climb hills. But if I say, you know, Bob, I just got back and I climbed Mount Everest. Oh my gosh, tell me the story. See, you want to have a story that people want to hear, and people want to hear a story that's beyond you or me. So success is about me, significance is about others, and the most beautiful stories, it will always be about others. Because I know a lot, and you do too, Bob. I know a lot of very unfulfilled, unhappy, successful people.

Boy, isn't that the truth?

Oh, they're loaded. They got money, they got everything. They got every— hey, If stuff would make them happy, they'd all be happy. They're not happy because stuff can't make you happy. Stuff doesn't, stuff's not supposed to make you and I happy. So here we are. So I'd meet a lot of successful people, they're very unfulfilled, very unhappy. But I have never ever met one person that lived a life of significance that was unhappy or unfulfilled. Now I'm sure somebody's out there that's that way, but I haven't met 'em yet. I mean, and why? Because we are born, we are created to care for others and make a difference in other people's lives. We are not born for ourselves. We are born to be our brother's keeper. And so this whole area of significance is huge. And so I want everybody to be successful. Really, the way it works is the more successful you are, the more significant things that you can do again. And so I tell people, go make a whole bunch of money, just don't spend it all on you. Pick your number and then pass it on and be a significant person. Does that make sense?

That is, it's so good. You know, it seems like there is a lot of crossover between good leadership and financial success because good leadership creates value and value creation is the foundation of wealth building.

Totally. In fact, you know what? When we're talking about charitable giving, there are questions I ask myself before I give because, I mean, there are so many wonderful causes. I mean, a long time ago I realized a need doesn't represent a calling to me because there are so many needs out there, Bob, that I mean thousands of very worthwhile needs. So I ask myself, you know, a few questions. And the number one, the first question I ask myself when you talk about leadership and stewardship and how it works, the first question I ask myself before I give to a cause is about leadership. I ask, do they have a good leader? I ask two things about the leader, character and competence. If the leader doesn't have good character, what am I going to give to that person? They're going to take that money and waste it anyway. and if they don't have competence, why would I give them money? Because they're not going to be able to maximize the dollar. So I look at the lead because, well, I mean, when I think of, it's just sad to me, but when I think like Haiti is the poorest country in the world and Haiti receives more money than any other country in the world. If every person in Haiti just got the money was sent to them, they'd all be millionaires. Well, what the heck's the problem? The problem is that leadership is corrupt. They don't have character. So what I'm going to give to whatever cause I'm going to give to, the first question I ask is a leadership question. I'm not going to give to any organization that I feel the leadership is either incompetent or lacks character in their life. I'm just not going to do it.

That makes total sense.

Huh?

Yeah, it seems to me too, one of the focuses of our book is on selecting private wealth managers, and it seems like leadership Leadership would be the same thing there. You want, you know, the first thing is you want to make sure they have good leadership, good character. You know, one of the things that I point out in the book is that in the public markets, that the difference between the best managers and the worst managers is very little. In the private markets, the difference between the best managers and the worst managers is a ginormous gap. And so making a selection, you know, the right selection is your leadership criteria would be critical there.

Yeah, I never thought of it that way, but that's very true. Thank you for that insight. That's, yes, that makes all the sense of the world, the world to me. And again, what's the foundation of leadership? Trust. What's the foundation of stewardship? Trust. And when I say everything rises and falls on leadership, what causes leadership to rise? Two things. Good leadership skills and good values. And you can't substitute, Bob, one for the other. You can't say, well, you know, they got great leadership skills, but I think he probably is a crook. I don't trust him. Well, hello. But I want to flip it. I also know people that are very trustworthy, but they can't lead. They can't lead. So, yeah, I tell people, don't make them your leader. Make them your friend. Go out to lunch with them. Have a good conversation, but don't go follow them. They're incompetent. So you have to have— but when you put good leadership skills and good values together, hey, good works the same way in finances. You want people that are competent stewardship-wise with skills, competent stewardship skills, but you also want them to have good values. They got to be better on the inside than they are on the outside. Yeah.

You know, one of my questions was about You know, so many people don't integrate that, you know, they're not— investing is not their primary focus, and their wealth building is kind of secondary to their broader mission and calling. One of my questions is, how do you integrate it? And I'm coming back to your comment on significance. It's, it's making the reason for your investment is to, is, is to increase the significance.

No question. I, um, in fact, I find it very interesting on our own personal financial portfolio, we really work hard on trying to make sure that we get the best return for our money. I mean, that's just a good business person does that. But when it comes to giving, I think we're quite careless. I think we throw, I kind of think we kind of throw like mud on the wall. I think we throw money on the wall. And you know, well, you know, that's a good friend of mine. I want to help him out a little bit. And we really don't go through the proper stewardship of stewardship and management of it and ask ourselves, why wouldn't we care for an eternal return as much as we care for a return temporary right now in our own life? And I think that's a big miss with a lot of people. And when I call them out on that, often they'll say, you know, you're exactly right. I'm much more careful about my return than I am God's return. And I said, well, you may wanna, you know, since there's gonna be a time you're gonna have to talk to the big man about that, you may wanna just kind of shift that a little bit and put that emphasis back. Obviously we want to get the best personal return. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. But I think we also, when it comes to giving, we have to be good stewards of our giving. And we've gotta make sure that we're gonna give the kind of return there that, is gonna be eternal, no question about it.

Yeah, and while we're there, I'm gonna go ahead and just give a shout out to EQUIP. And I'm actually a huge, huge fan of the John Maxwell organization. And you talk about good stewardship. I mean, the return you're getting and the impact you're making across nations. And my favorite is the I Lead program where you're taking values, these wonderful values that everyone can agree on, left, right, whatever faith you are, and you're inculcating these in millions and millions of children. And the impact is real, it's tangible. So I'm just so excited about that.

I am too, because you know what happens if you can put good values in children? You save a generation. That's it. There is no question about it. If somebody said, how do you change your country? I tell you.

No question. Start with the kindergartners.

You start, you go, you go straight to that school system and you start pouring good values into their lives. And I promise you, you're building a better future for your country. And we've been doing that now, oh, for a dozen years. We have probably internationally 6 million kids going through our value trip. You know, in the States, of course, we just started 2 years ago.

It's happening here too.

Oh, it's so cool. We just passed a million. We're at like 1.2 million right now.

I get so excited.

Oh, I'm going out to the state of Washington in about 3 weeks and I'm going to speak to 3,000 superintendents and principals and educators in the public school system. And I'm coming out to talk to them about values in the school. Think of the change that's going to happen when kids live, because here's what happens when kids learn good values, they can live good values. And when they live good values, everything appreciates it. Everything appreciates. When you bring values into a culture, everything gets better.

And I love it. It's so uniting too, in such a divisive world, divisive culture. Everything you say, everyone agrees on, and it's so powerful and thunderous.

Yeah, but I love the fact it's a uniter. Values are a uniter. It is. You can be red state, blue state, I don't care.

I know.

Hey, would you like people to treat you well? Yeah, I think I would like that. Okay, the golden golden rule probably works there. And you're exactly right. In fact, when we go into countries, we start with the president, we start with the leaders of the country, and we just lay out, I don't know, 38 values and say, pick the 16 or 18 that you would like. And they have no problem. They just pick them out. And then we start teaching them. And, you know, I was talking to the Secretary of Education of Guatemala recently, and she told me, that the teachers say within 3 weeks of kids starting to learn these values around small groups, within 3 weeks, she said, we could tell the difference in the attitude of the students. 3 weeks makes a change. Anyway, and by the way, thanks. You are not only a fan, and I got a lot of fans, you're a supporter, buddy. You step up big time. Thank you very much. It means the world to me.

And it's good stewardship. I mean, I feel like every dollar that I give is really being used well, and you guys have done an amazing job that. Just, you know, the, the level of excellence on behind the scenes is bar none, you know. And, you know, you know, and back to your earlier point you made about picking your number, you know, the goal of the book Invest Like a Billionaire is to help people become next-level investors. And because, because the difference is enormous, that I point out in the book that the value of compounding your investment is greater than the value of a career or even a successful business over time. And so if you've if you're living and you have a number, right, then everything, everything above that can go to impact and making, you know, just making the world a better place and doing whatever, telling your story, as you say.

Bob, what I love about your Invest Like a Billionaire book is this. Successful people get to that top 10% plateau. They get there. I mean, they're 90% of the people basically are, quote, under them. And if you get to the top 10% in your career, you can live a very comfortable life. I mean, you're in leadership, you've got influence, you probably really don't have need of anything at that 10% level. But the tendency is for people to stop there. And what I love about you, Investing in Billionaires, you stretch out, you stretch the minds and say, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. The next 9% above that first 90, going from 90 up to 99, get up to that top. The next 9% compounds 6 to 1 to the first 90%. And this is the big mess because people say, well, you know, I'm comfortable. I don't need to work here. Well, of course you don't need to work anywhere, but we are missing the picture. All the influence and all the good you can do in culture, exactly, society is on that back end.

It is.

And if you'll stay in the game, then all of a sudden the returns you're going to have are— consistency compounds. We all know about that. We all know about money. You got to keep it in there for a period of time. And what I tell people is that last 9% ride, it's going to give you so much more than the first 90%, but you got to stay in the game. In fact, I have a saying sometimes I use, and that is, when you can afford to quit, You can't afford to quit.

Wow.

Because when you can afford to quit is about the time you're starting to compound that money and that influence. So, you know, so, and what I tell people is if you quit on that 10% level, if you quit there, you'll never have any idea of the loss of potential that you just gave up because you don't know. You didn't go there. So you, hey, you don't get it. You don't get a readout on that. But here's what I know. If you had influence and money on the first 90%, which you do, that next 9% is going to be, that's, hey, that's where you tell the beautiful story that we talked about. It compounds almost, it's almost embarrassing. I'm 78. It's, I'm 78. And I wish that I went, I wish when I was 60, somebody would help me with this. Wow. Isn't that something? I stayed in the game and I'm still in the game. But I mean, and 60 is not like a young kid. But if somebody's to, because, well, really, well, my brother was this very successful business guy. And when he got 40, when he became 40 years old, we were visiting out in San Diego where I lived at that time. And he said, John, he said, I think I'm going to just retire. I got everything I need. And I said, no, that's a horrible thing to say and do. You got to— now's the time to put the pedal to the metal. Come on. Let's— and he spent really the rest of his life telling and writing beautiful stories of giving and charity and significance in his life with—

is this Larry?

Yeah, Larry, with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people's lives being changed. So what I love about your book and about the way you think is that you really do understand, Bob, that when you get to that 90%, that's when, that's when harvest time just gets ridiculous afterwards. And, and, and, and, and you never know if you stop. But if you don't stop, you become incredibly amazed and unbelievably grateful because you've never lived in a time like you're about to live in when you start compounding all that money, all that influence. Never.

Boy, it feels like that to me. I, at this stage in my life, and I'm 64, I'm just a youngster, you know, here. And, and but I am more excited about the next phase of my life, about multiplying everything that I've been given in order to, to make, to make the biggest difference I can make for the most people.

I, you know what I want you to do because Your book is out now, right?

September 2nd.

Yeah, it's coming out because they can preorder it. Okay.

They can preorder it. Yeah.

So what I want to do is I want to buy 100 copies of your book, but I want you to give them to people that you want to invest in, that you know, that you just said, and especially give them to young people. Give them to kids that aren't— hey, they're not even a millionaire yet, but get that kind of teaching in there. And I want to— whatever the price is, full price, just let Linda know, and I will send you a check because I want to invest in the book because I know the book and I know what you've said in the book, and I want more people to get it. So just figure it out. Figure it out and send it to Linda. But pick out some young people that haven't had any kind of wisdom like you're giving in the book and put that gift in their hands and let them—

That's the thing about investing is time is your friend, right? The sooner you get started, the more impact you have, the better it is, you know.

No question.

And especially if you do what you're saying, you pick your number as a young person, pick your number and then, you know, just live on that, grow and give the rest.

Absolutely. Because one more thing on that picking number. I have never met a person that didn't pick a number. I've never met a person that didn't pick a number that didn't have that desire to say, I don't have enough yet. They never have.

Wait, say that again.

You tell me a person hasn't picked a number. And I'll show you a person that it's never enough yet. There's still, well, I'm doing okay, but I need to do a little bit more here. And it's just never enough. And I tell people, in fact, I think really, I'm just working on this, but I think you need to pick two numbers. I think you need to pick on it. This is my, I think this is my standard of living number. And this is going to be my net worth number. And they do different things for different people because I picked a net worth number. Oh my gosh, I don't know, 15 years ago, I suppose. And so my net worth has stayed the same for quite a period of time.

Wow.

Because I give all the rest of it away. Yeah. And so it works. It really works. And by the way, my number is a good number. I have a good life. I'm not trying to, anyway, kind of strain people. I'm just saying, pick a number. But when I picked a number, if I wouldn't have picked my net worth number of what it should be, then I can promise you I'd still be building my net worth.

And the rest doesn't get invested. It just goes to charity.

Totally. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's why we do it. But I'm saying, well, I was saying I had a guy really help me. Give me some good feedback on this. A wonderful friend of mine, because I was saying give it all away above that number, because that's kind of basically what I've been able to— I give— I'm able to give millions of dollars away every year now. But he came back to me and said, John, that's probably too heavy for some people. Tell them to give half of it, and then the other half, they could do what they want to do with that. But just to give— but think of that. That's a lot of money too, probably in most people's lives. But the key is, 'cause I had a guy, he asked me in a seminar one day, he said, what's your net worth? I said, well, I don't think that's any of your business, but I said, I'll explain something to you. It's been the same for 20 years. He said, well, what's happening? I said, I picked a number and it's all I need. I don't need anymore. I, you know, it's, I mean, because I mean, all right, if you got $1 billion, then what's there's $1 billion and $2 billion. I mean, have you figured out how you're gonna use every one of those priceless pennies in your life? Of course not. Of course not. But it just freed me up. So yeah, I could have a bigger net worth, but I just think, you know, it's my friend, Ron Blue said, do your giving while you're living so you're knowing where it's going. Doesn't that work? That's great. That's great. And Margaret and I have a lot of joy in seeing our money work. You know, I mean, just like you have a lot of, you're building your personal portfolio, you have a lot of joy in watching that money work for you. Well, we have a lot of joy in being able to give to these causes and then saying, look what's happened with that money that we've invested. Look at the return we're getting. And we get to see it. We get to see it. Too many people, they wait until they're ready to die and then try to figure it out. And they miss an incredible journey of our life of seeing that money at an earlier time, you know, help people. I just think it works that way.

You know, I find the older I've gotten and, and, um, you know, I get more focused on the giving than the earning. You know, early in my career it was just, you know, I look at these young people, I'm around some of these young entrepreneurs and they're all just hungry for the— you could just see the energy and the hunger, and it's all about just building, building, building. And I get that, you know, I really get to get that.

But it's—

but today it's more, I think, a lot more about You know, how do I make the greatest impact and figure out how to earn more, but to give it away? Do you think that's a natural thing with age, or what's your perspective?

No, I think it's a natural thing with a person that has a heart for generosity. I think greedy people are greedier their whole life. I think greedy people, I just think greedy people get more greedy as they get older.

Wow.

And I tell people all the time, oh, I mean, I know people, they've been climbing the ladder of life their whole life. And I said, what happens when you get to the top of the ladder and find out that it's leaning against the wrong building? And you spent all your effort and you're leaning against the wrong building. That's why I know that if we make those decisions when we're younger, the return is great. My father, who lived to be 98, I can remember when he was about 91, we were talking one day in his office and And he said, John, he said, isn't it wonderful that the older you get, the more you love people? And I said, Dad, I said, that's true of you, but that isn't true of a lot of people. I said, the older some people get, they're crankier. You know, they become a dog. And what happens is, how we spend our youth and our bent and our perspective of life What happens as you get older, it just gets more exaggerated. Age exaggerates. So if I have lived a giving, generous, abundant life, as I get older, guess what? It exaggerates. And so my father loved people when he was 35. Well, he really loves people at 85. But if you don't like people at 35, that, that love switch doesn't just turn on automatically. You just don't like them very much at 85 either. So I think that, you know, how we, the perspective is, you know, how we view things is how we do things. And so I've become kind of, you know, outside of sharing my faith to the person, if I could help them with anything, I would, I think I would help with their perspective. Because if my perspective is one of generosity and abundance, I'm gonna have that. But if my perspective is scarcity and holding tight to what I have, what I tell people is, your perspective is your real world. It's your real world. It's not a false world. It's not a fake world. It's not a wrong world. It's just a real world. And I think that the quicker people can understand that and get what I call a life stance, a life perspective about how to be generous and how to have good values and how to truly be bigger on the inside than on the outside. I think there comes a time where Man, that life gets to be compounded and it begins to be an incredible influence in a positive way to a lot of other people, without any doubt.

That's so good. John, you've shared some amazing nuggets here. Last question for you. You know, Invest Like a Billionaire is being published by Maxwell Leadership, which I'm just super honored to be partnered with your organization. And so let me ask, Why did you decide to take on this project, and what do you— why do you believe this message of wise wealth building is so timely and important today?

Well, we take— we, we have a publishing company, and we're honored to publish you. But we don't publish you first of all because the book you've written. We publish you because the person you are. I learned a long time ago, you bet on the person. And then everything else they do comes out okay. But you bet on the person. So, hey, if you're a speaker, but you're a good person, we'll bet on you. And it'll come. If you're a writer, we'll bet on you. But you bet on the person. And so when we met you and had some time with you and asked the questions you asked, we sat there and we said, Bob's a good person. And you're right. Your motives are right. And you're doing the right thing for the right reason. And so now we said, okay, what kind of book you got? Well, the kind of book you have is a book that is practical and it's a book that's biblical and it's a book that truly stretches people. When I read a book, I want to be stretched. I don't— I want— I want— when I read a book, I want a mountain to climb. I want something to do that I haven't yet done. I want to see something yet I haven't yet seen. And so Invest Like a Billionaire is a blueprint to do the right thing with the materialism that you're going to have in your life. And that's why we bet on you. And then when we read the manuscript, we said, oh my gosh, we not only bet on the right person, we bet on it. It's very— you make us proud. That's what the best way to say is. We're very proud. I mean, we're going to— at our publishing company, we're going to go around and say, you know, Bob Fraser is one of our authors. And it's an honor. It's truly an honor to partner with you, because there are going to be a lot of people helped. And again, I really want to invest in 100 books myself, just because there are people, there are people that need to get that. And I'm very excited about young people picking it up, because my life was changed because my father put us on a reading program from the 7th grade on. And we got our, we were paid our allowance by the books that we read. And so by the time I got out of high school, I was so much further away, farther ahead than my peers. Not because I was smarter, but because I was reading good stuff all the time. And this, hey.

Isn't that the truth? You know, today for $30, you can get the most world-changing, life-changing concepts, the secrets of the world. And it's just amazing the rich time we live in. John, this has been amazing. I absolutely love the things you've shared. I think they're timeless and incredibly important, and, uh, and I just, I just hope people take this all to heart. And thank you so much for being here with us and for giving your wisdom, and you're, uh, you're just so generous as a— with, with, with yourself, and I so appreciate you.

Well, you are too. We're, we're, we're, uh very similar in our heart and our intention. You're salt and light. You make things better and make things brighter. And I like that. Hey, keep shaking the salt and turning on the light, man. All right, Bob, I'll just hang with you. Okay. All right.

Thank you so much, John.

Good to be with you, Fred.