Passive Investor Spotlight #10: From MD to Financial Freedom feat. Dr. Christopher Loo

Hello, future billionaires. Welcome back to another episode of your favorite podcast, the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. Today we had a really fun conversation with Dr. Chris Lu. So he runs a podcast called Passive Investing for Physicians and really shared a lot of his story of how he kind of went from being an MD to retiring and becoming financially free through real estate investing. And so we actually took a fun approach on this interview where we do our Passive Investor Spotlight series. So we ask some questions, he shares kind of his story, but then really gets into how he's currently investing in his portfolio. And where he sees some potential opportunities, shares some of the mindsets that helped him kind of get to where he is. So definitely you got to check this episode out. Always fun to hear from fellow passive investors of what they're doing. And if you are enjoying this podcast, I would definitely encourage you to appreciate if you would subscribe to the podcast on any platform you like and leave us a review if you don't mind, because that really helps us get the word out and, you know, kind of gives us the credibility to continue to get the message to more and more people. So if you don't mind doing that, appreciate that on Apple or Spotify, wherever you listen, leave a review and hope you enjoy this episode. This is the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast, where we uncover the alternative investments and strategies that billionaires use to grow wealth. The tools and tactics you'll learn from this podcast will make you a better investor and help you build legacy wealth. Join us as we dive into the world of alternative investments, uncover strategies of the ultra-wealthy, discuss economics and interview successful investors. Looking for passive investments done for you? With Aspen Funds, we help accredited investors that are looking for higher yields and diversification from the stock market. As a passive investor, we do all the work for you, making sure your money is working hard for you in alternative investments. In fact, our team invests alongside you in every deal, so our interests are aligned. We focus on macro-driven alternative investments so your portfolio is best positioned for this economic environment. Get started and download your free economic report today. Welcome back to the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. I am your host today, Ben Frazier, and very excited to be bringing on Chris Lu onto the podcast. And I was actually just recently a guest on Chris's podcast, which is a great podcast to go check out. And he's got a really cool story. As we were kind of talking, I was like, hey, we got to have you on our podcast and kind of share some of the things you're doing and share your story. And so we're going to kind of take a fun angle on more of our segment, our show. We have a segment called Passive Investor Spotlight and really trying to understand more of the nuances. So I want to hear the story. I want to hear how you got to where you were. And you said you have a lot of different consulting and mindset shifts and things that you feel are really helpful for investors, but then Would love to kind of tell the interview, kind of go into more specifics of allocation strategy, where you see opportunities, etc., etc. But before we do that, Chris, welcome to the podcast and share a little bit about your story.

Yeah, I'm really happy to be on your podcast, Ben, and, you know, and I'm really happy to offer a lot of value. So I'm a physician by training, trained in orthopedic surgery from 2000 all the way up to 2016. And essentially transitioned. I was able to gain my financial freedom by investing in real estate from 2008 to 2016. Retired early, and I felt that there was a need for financial literacy and financial freedom and financial independence in the physician community. A lot of physicians were getting ripped off, scammed, didn't really understand the dynamics of debt, and they were getting themselves in trouble, and they were tied to single income, which during COVID really exploded. So, you know, I started Financial Freedom for Physicians in 2016, which is a media and consulting company dedicated for financial literacy for physicians, high-income earners, professionals, and so that they can create time, wealth, location, and health freedom in their lives and have more control. And so that's essentially my story. And, you know, the interesting story, which I think a lot of listeners will be surprised is, you know, I had the traditional career all the way up. I followed all the rules, you know, I, you know, took all the exams, got all the good grades, you know, got admitted. And essentially everything came to a standstill in September of 2008 because I got fed up with the way the system was set up. And, you know, the system was set up to benefit a few, only a few, and leave everybody else behind. So I turned in my keys, badge, and pager, quit my lucrative medical career the day Lehman Brothers collapsed, and set out, and I was going to create a life independent of the current system so that I can create my own time, health, wealth, location, freedom. And since then, it's been a wild ride. It's been a wild journey. Tremendous success, tremendous failures. And I'm happy to share all of that on the show.

Man. Well, yeah, you just shared a lot. There's a lot to unpack. So, so yeah, rewind the clock a little bit. So kind of share the first aha moment maybe of when you, you know, saw the light of, hey, this is actually could be a possibility that I could go and do this, you know, create the time freedom through investing. And it sounds like that was kind of contrary to maybe the way you were raised or that maybe kind of the schooling and the path that had kind of been forged for you and probably a lot of other people that were in that position, right?

Yeah, yeah, my aha moment really came especially, it was first 2000, you know, after the tech bubble and then especially after 9/11 and, you know, Enron, WorldCom scandals. So that was really my aha moment. Really the world was changing and I was fortunate to come across a book called "Rich Dad Poor Dad." I'm sure the majority of listeners have read that, but if you haven't really read that, it's, you know, it's got a lot of the fundamental concepts of, where our financial system is today and how to protect yourself. So that was my aha moment. And luckily, you know, when I started medical school, you know, Houston real estate was really cheap. It was actually cheaper to own a piece of real estate as opposed to rent. So, you know, rent a 2-bed, 2-bath, you know, 1,500 square feet was, you know, back then was $1,500. And then you could actually buy a condo, you know, decent condo for, you know, $50,000, $60,000. So, you know, you're actually saving money by owning. Well, So that, you know, that sent me ahead a little bit. And my first success was when I rented out the other room to a fellow classmate. So I was basically, you know, living rent-free and, you know, studying to become a doctor and all of that. So I was like, oh wow, this is a, you know, this is a good source of alternative income. And from there I just, you know, I got hooked because, you know, real estate is a hard asset. If I could rent out these rooms, I could rent out more. You know, the problem was with just finding funding. And, you know, from there I, you know, got into house hacking and expanded from there.

Wow. So you were doing this on the side while still working full-time as a physician. And so did you start buying rentals? Did you start investing passively in syndications or that kind of happened later on, or what was kind of the journey there on the investing side?

Yeah. So I really— I got my second property back in 2004. So, you know, between my first condo was '90, 1999, 2000 when I started med school. And then back then, you know, 2004, banks were really lending. It was really easy to get a loan and, you know, on a property $50K, you know, that was kind of a low-risk bet. It wasn't like a, you know, $300K, $400K, you know, that got a lot of people into trouble. So that was my second unit. But during that process, I also devoted a lot of time to studying equities. And this was, you know, from '02 to '06 was a huge bull market. You know, Fed lowered interest rates. There was a lot of speculation, especially in tech. And, you know, I got in at the right time and everything just went up. So I was, you know, buying call options and, you know, I could, you know, you know, make $2K, you know, you know, $10K, you know, $20K. And by, you know, over a 4-year period, I had amassed, you know, several hundred K. In, uh, in liquidity. So that was kind of my second income stream, was, you know, buying and selling call options and stocks as well. So, you know, caveat is that, you know, during these times you have to, you know, the trend is your friend, but if you go against the trend like 2008, 2009, you're going to get wrecked. So, you know, I was, you know, fortunate. So bought my second condo, did the same thing, house, uh, rented it out.

And so did you pull, pull your money out of the markets before '08, '09, or you said you kind of went up and then had a little bit of a crash too.

Luckily, I— so during this time, I learned about risk management, and I learned that, you know, during this time, I, I took out 70% of my profits, and I let the rest of the 30% ride. So, you know, that 30%, you know, probably dwindled down to 10% or so. So I, you know, I took that loss, I took it as a learning, you know, really, um, know that markets, you know, can turn, nothing is forever, and in these markets you have to be more strategic. So you have to, you know, kind of have a long-term allocation, short-term allocation, you know, take your profits, you know, have short-term positions. You know, it's more of a kind of a nimble and, and more of a trading mindset as well as a long-term investing mindset.

Yeah. But I mean, thankfully you pulled out 70% of it and then used that to go and buy more real estate. Was that kind of the next step there? Okay.

Yeah. And so, you know, I was really in good position in 2008. I really So there was another crisis looming, which was the healthcare crisis. And basically private equity was coming in, you know, government mandates, they were basically tearing the whole healthcare system apart. And, you know, I saw a lot of my colleagues really struggle during these times. And so I started looking for the exits and I was always finding a way to fire my job and how I could quit my job and, you know, set out on my own. This was always in my, my passion and my goal. And so, you know, luckily 2008, I was so sick of the system. You know, I saw all the executives just take out huge bonuses from the bailout money, you know, funded by the taxpayers. And that really irritated me. So I turned in my keys, badge, and pager, and I was like, I don't want to be a part of this. I don't want to be a part of the healthcare system. And I started investing in single-family rentals throughout the Houston area. And by then there was like a 20, 30% correction. So You know, you—

Yeah, that was a great, great time to be buying, man.

Oh man, it's like 2008 all the way up to about 2018 was the best time. Now it's like more— I think there's a lot of interest and, you know, there's more buyers and it's a more competitive market. So, you know, I was able to buy my financial freedom by 2016, became a multimillionaire, you know, retired early and dedicated to helping physicians.

That's awesome. So in 2008, when you decided to walk away from, you know, medical practice, did— were you at a point where you would say you were financially free or you kind of made a— you'd done enough to where you're having success, the trajectory was, was on the right direction, but you needed to kind of go all in to kind of go to that next level? Or what was— where were you at at that point? Because that's kind of an interesting, you know, timeframe and understanding, you know, if you're already kind of fully set and you felt like there's no real risk doing this or it was kind of a risk to jump off.

Yeah, it was actually, so it was one of the biggest gambles I've ever made, but it's one of the biggest gambles that's really paid off in terms of, you know, how much value I've been able to create. So, you know, by then I was, you know, 29 years old, I was financially free, so I wasn't really tied to a job or an income. So, and it, so basically in order to get to the next level to become financially free, I had to, sever those ties and basically go all in. And that's been, that's been one of the hardest decisions, but it's one of the best decisions and one of the decisions that's really come under criticism from my family, friends, colleagues. You know, they call me, you know, a traitor. They call me, um, you know, I, you know, I wasted a lot of time. Of course, you know, I paid for everything. You know, I didn't take any money from anybody. And so, you know, that was my decision, and I have to live with myself and it's one of the best decisions. So if you, you know, fast forward to today, you know, 15 years later, all of my friends, colleagues who really questioned me back then, they're now asking me like, how did I do it? Can I help them?

They're all listening to your podcast now, right? So how did Chris do this? I got to figure it out.

Yeah. So yeah. And it's, it's just, it's incredible because, you know, when you do something against the grain, people are just like, You know, when something just so against the grain, people think you're either crazy or you're nuts or you're just something, or you're just going to be a tremendous success. So it's either you're going to be a tremendous failure or tremendous success when you take these risks and gamble.

So yeah, well, thankfully it paid off. Talk a little bit about kind of mindsets. You said, you know, and right now what you do a lot of times is speaking, right? You're training people through your podcast, through other events of just financial literacy and what do you find are like the biggest roadblocks for people to kind of, you know, make the jump? And maybe if it's not even a full like I'm going all in actively to do real estate full time, but it's even just I want to go more passively, I can syndications or funds or other things like what do you find are the biggest roadblocks mentally people have in that in this journey?

So one thing is I separate it between internal and external roadblocks. So One thing is external roadblocks are, those are your friends, your family, your spouse, society, and those are kind of in media as well. And that's really hard. So that's like one of the things where you have to do is you really have to be careful who you associate yourself with, who you spend your time with, who you're influenced by, because in today there's no, In the past, you know, there was like this one path where you had to follow it. And if you got off of it, you were in trouble. But, you know, now we have, we have the internet, we have social media, we have, we can do a lot of different things, you know, we have more options. So that's one thing. So, you know, be careful whose advice you listen to, you know, a lot of friends are well-intentioned, but really don't listen to the, I have a really great phrase is listen to those who have done what you want to accomplish. And a lot of the haters— yeah, and a lot of the haters and naysayers are such because they haven't done what they say can't be done. So it can be well-intentioned or not. So that's one thing.

It sounds like that was a challenge for you with some of the family expectations and friends of like, hey, what are you— what are you doing, right? And so you really— how did you overcome that, you know, block by just finding the people, the the mentors, whether they were, you know, in person or you just listened to like Robert Kiyosaki and his book, or what was— how did you overcome that? Because it's easy to say, but it's one thing to do it versus to say it.

Yeah. And yeah, that which, you know, the internal is really hard. It's super hard because, you know, society is kind of designed to keep everybody in conformity and really nobody should stand out. And so really for you know, a period of around 8 years before I started to really get traction and success. I literally, it was just me and my room. It was basically on med school mode and I basically executed. I networked with entrepreneurs, people like that were like-minded doing things that I wanted to do. And I really just basically shunned mainstream. So I turned off the TV. You know, all my old friends and colleagues, they thought I had, you know, died or dropped off the face of the earth. And that basically, you know, family meetings, outings, I really kept to a minimum. And, you know, if I had to spend time with family, with the naysayers, I would really mentally prepare, you know, kind of, you know, prime myself to understand where they were coming from. So that was huge, just basically shutting out all of the noise and just execute. So that was the biggest thing, but it was the hardest thing. But now today, when I get haters and naysayers, does not affect me at all because I know where they're coming from. And, you know, I've been able to see that success. So one thing is just turn off the noise, really focus on who you associate yourself with.

Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, I think it's so simple, but it's so powerful of, you know, tuning out all the noise, the distractions, the negatives, and focusing on the people that you want to emulate and that you want to model, right? Finding the people that have what you want to go for and modeling that and listening to the advice that, you know, maybe they share or the path that they forged. And I remember doing that when I was back in commercial banking and it was a great experience, learned a lot, you know, of how to underwrite deals and about real estate and business. But I looked at the people that were 10 years ahead of me and I was like, that is not— that is not where I want to be, right? It's, uh, it's a very different path. And, you know, had to make some, some changes to kind of get to, um, where I wanted to be. And I think that takes courage. It takes, uh, you know, going against the grain a lot of times. But obviously, very— paid off well for you. It's paid off well for me. And I'm sure everyone else that, that, you know, has a similar story.

Yeah, yeah, it's— yeah, it's been a tremendous— and really, it's just a story of growth and kind of just, you know, knowing who you are and just kind of setting out on your path. So like I said, so what was the—

I mean, you kind of mentioned with the financial literacy piece, you read the Rich Dad Poor Dad book, you know, that's, that's a great book. It's, you know, creates some really powerful concepts for people who aren't familiar with, you know, buying assets to generate income to, you know, kind of create this virtuous cycle. But what, what else did you do to like really educate yourself? Because a lot of the things, to your point, that we're kind of taught in the financial world is this, you know, just invest your 401, set it and forget it, wait till you can retire at, you know, in your 60s and hopefully have enough that you, you know, can live off of for the rest of your life. Right. It's, it's a very different mindset, very different kind of path. But what did you do? Because there is a lot of just education needed as you're kind of making the transition more into especially alternatives and real estate. Even if you're not going full active as an investor, you want to go more passive, you know, what, what do you recommend for people to kind of, you know, level up their financial literacy?

Oh, man. You know, it's so much has progressed these days. You know, my base is, you know, basically, you know, base of reading, but also now they have YouTube and podcasts. So everywhere I'm going, I'm always on the listen. One, the other thing is plug yourself into community. So it can be either masterminds like physical masterminds that you, you know, you pay for, very valuable. But, you know, of course you have to vet these masterminds and, you know, but there's something surrounding yourself with a mastermind that's really powerful. It can motivate you. You can get additional resources that you can't find in books. So the networking as well. So I always go to in-person. Now I can go on the Zoom as well. Facebook communities. There's a lot of digital communities. So when I first started out, all I did was I got into my car, drove to the library, you know, read for an hour, write down some action steps, you know, really think about those. But now it's like, you know, it's exploding. So now you can surround—

Yeah, you're old school going to the library. I mean, that's some commitment right there. I mean, you're right.

It's—

there's so much available at your fingertips right now. It's incredible.

Yeah, but I really think working in masterminds are— those things can really set yourself up for the next level.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I agree. I'm in several masterminds myself, and it's just not only can you rub shoulders with people maybe you couldn't otherwise, but you're also just, you know, having something that's maybe people are a step or two ahead of you and seeing what's possible, right? Just even that awareness of that is really, really powerful too. Let's just go back to kind of more the investing. I want to get more into the nitty-gritty here. This is always the fun part. And how has your strategy evolved? Because early on it sounds like you're doing the house hacking, you know, you started buying some rentals, obviously great timing to be doing that. And, you know, it never hurts to have some luck on your side when you're investing, right? And timing things well. But how has it shifted over time? Are you still, you know, actively involved in a lot of your deals? Are you kind of more passive now? Have you invested more in kind of syndications and diversified other asset classes. Talk a little bit about how your strategy has evolved, what your portfolio looks like now. Yeah.

So my strategy has really transitioned from more of an active approach to more of a passive approach. And the reason why I advocate passive is because it, you know, now I spend a lot of time, you know, speaking and doing consulting and, you know, building out my brand and helping other clients. So that's, one of the reasons. And really the active part really taught me the business skills to really succeed, you know, in my current— but so, you know, allocation-wise, it's always been around 45% real estate, 45% equities, and then the rest, you know, the 10% are kind of what I call alternative asset class. It could be syndications, could be digital assets, you know, different opportunities, just kind of increase the upside. So that's kind of how it's transitioned. For the real estate side, for the listeners, it's always been, my bread and butter has always been single family. So, you know, I haven't gone into multifamily or apartments. I've invested some into syndications, not a lot, but that's just more to get exposure to the upside as well, as well as the tax deductions. So it's always been single families. I bought my last final property in 2018, and now I'm just, because of the interest rate variability, the economics, you know, COVID, all of that, I'm waiting for everything to settle down before, you know, diving in again, you know, sitting on, you know, a cash cushion. All my rental properties are managed either passively, and so, you know, that's given me the free time to actually, you know, do the my passion work, which is to help others, you know, achieve financial freedom as well. Equity-wise, well, I've always been buying the dips, you know, 2022, 2020, and basically dollar-cost averaging as well. Always looking at the new opportunities. And then also the digital asset space, which is a really exciting space. You know, I'm carefully looking at that, delving into that. You know, again, these are more riskier, but they have potentially more upside if you can afford the downside risk.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. So on the 45% of real estate, these are just the historical rentals that you've purchased over time and continue to hold on to. So you're still— you don't own those through a syndication, you own those directly, and you probably have property managers and others that run those for you on a day-to-day. Is that accurate?

Yeah. Okay. So it's all direct active, but it's, it's managed by property managers, so it's more passive. So and then got it. Yeah. And then like, go ahead.

On the equities, are you buying like broad-based ETFs? Are you, you know, what's kind of your breakdown strategy there a little bit on if using an advisor to do that or you kind of just dollar cost averaging is pretty simple. So you just kind of keeping it simple and, you know, just having, you know, buying when it dips a little bit. So talk about that strategy a little bit.

Yeah. So essentially I have it, I'm a little bit more aggressive, so my port— my equity portfolio is more heavily weighted towards the tech side. So, you know, Amazon, Apple, Google, you know, you know, the reason my thinking is because of the rate of inflation as well as the rate of debt as well as the interest rate. So the— as well as declining GDP. So the reason why declining GDP is important is because in order to service the debt, you know, the country has to produce something to pay off that debt. But if you're GDP is declining along with rising interest rates, more of that's going to be serving the interest rates. So tech is in a great position. I think, you know, Apple, Amazon, these companies are in great positions. They're using artificial intelligence, blockchain. They're doing a lot of things. So the next wave of productivity will be in technology. It has to be. So that's, you know, I'm more weighted towards that. But again, I'm broadly diversified. I have SPY. That's the ETF for the S&P, the QQQ Nasdaq, as well as the Dow Jones. So, you know, again, again, broadly diversified, get your base footing, get your safety, and then you can go out and take more riskier bets.

So yeah, I mean, and just by, by function of the tech companies or the big ones, you know, Apple, Amazon, etc., etc., the size of the market caps, they already are pretty heavily weighted in the the broad-based exposure as well anyway. But yeah, that makes sense. And I probably agree that, you know, as we continue to have GDP growth, I think most of that growth is probably going to come from productivity versus population, right? Because population, we're still in the positive barely. But, you know, most other countries are on the decline. And so to continue to grow, we need to have more productivity, more technology advancements. And I think that's smart. And then on the other 10%, kind of break that down a little bit. So it's obviously a small portion is probably, like you said, a lot more of the riskier assets. You've got digital assets. Is that like cryptocurrencies? Is that, you know, break down some of what that 10% is?

Yeah. So 10%. So approximately so, so of that 10%, you know, 3 to 4% syndications, that's more to get the active side. Passive side. And then, you know, 4% is actually in, it's not in cryptocurrency per se, but it's in Bitcoin. So I always like to distinguish Bitcoin from cryptocurrency. And so the reason why Bitcoin is extremely popular these days is because it's a decentralized digital asset with no counterparty. So it's basically, you know, with governments printing money, excessive debt, you know, bank failures. In the past, gold was a safe haven. Now countries are looking at Bitcoin because it's non-sovereign and it can't be manipulated. I distinguish that from cryptocurrency because cryptocurrency is centralized and there's people behind it and, you know, it can be manipulated. There's, you know, rug pulls, there's fraud, there's scams, you know, you know, the, all of the headlines. So the, the reason why I really like Bitcoin is because it is a hedge against sovereign, you know, defaults and, you know, currency debasement and all that. So that's one of my plays and, and we'll see where it goes.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's talk a little bit about just kind of some of the macro trends. So this is kind of where you've built the portfolio to this point. Where are you seeing opportunities? What are you kind of interested in right now and You know, you said you haven't really bought any new rentals for a while. So what's kind of your go-forward strategy just from an investment standpoint and where are you seeing opportunities?

Yeah, right now is a great way, great time to be in cash right now, you know, 4 to 5%, you know, you know, T-bills, you know, a lot of banks are offering, you know, accounts offering that. So if you basically want to sit in cash on the sidelines, you know, 5%, the risk-free rate, for doing nothing, you know, that's kind of, that's kind of my default. But then again, you know, you know, again, where I'm looking at is, you know, the next trend. So for example, we have— we talked about demographics, we talked about debt, we talked about aging infrastructure. So political, financial, healthcare, transportation, and education, all of these are really in desperate need of a massive upgrade. So And in that macro environment, we have declining GDP, rising interest rates, cost of living increasing, taxes as well. So my— what I'm looking at is these early-stage companies, blockchain, artificial intelligence, quantum computing, the silicon industry, Web3 and blockchain. So that's where I'm kind of positioning myself. But right now is a great time to be in cash. And then, you know, when you see opportunities, especially in real estate, You know, you know, if the numbers work out, you know, be careful not to buy at the top and you make sure that the debt service, especially, you know, with these interest rates, you know, the numbers make sense. So that's where I'm kind of positioning myself.

Yeah, got it. Yeah, it's interesting. I might push a little bit on the cash piece because I think, you know, you have kind of conflicting challenges with inflation, right? Because inflation's eroding the value of cash and obviously with the risk-free rate going up, it makes it less erosive. But, you know, depending on how you measure inflation and, you know, where you think it's going, you know, I think it's good to have cash because one, you— if we're going into some, some hiccups and some bumps here economically, which, you know, we'll see, I'm still not convinced we are going to have a recession. If we are, it's going to be very deep. But it's good to have buffers. It's good to have cash. But you also don't want to sit on too much cash, right? Because the future value of your purchasing power is eroded. Right. And so I I favor more. I mean, you obviously are pretty heavy into real estate already, so, you know, that single family especially, you know, correlates with inflation pretty well as pretty inflation protective. So, you know, but for those that are not as heavily into real estate, not as inflation protected, I would, I would say you probably want to be, you know, have a decent percentage of cash but also have lines of credit, right? For me, cash is kind of cash and cash equivalents where if you have lines of credit open where you can, you know, have those available. Obviously, there's a chance that banks can take those away if things get really, really bad. So you don't want to overly rely on that. But, you know, have access to cash where you can. And I would, I would push a little bit more on the investment side of getting into inflation-protected investments that, you know, are conservative if you are more risk-averse. But, you know, inflation is an enemy of savers right now.

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And then basically, you know, you're sitting on cash and it's kind of like a short-term holding. And when you see, you know, for example, dips in the market or you see a great investment, especially single families, you know, you know, it's a great time. So and again, they say always they say cash is king. So, you know, as long as in lines of credit as well, that's, that's always helpful.

Yeah. Awesome. So what are you kind of positioning for? I mean, I know a lot of people are have lots of different opinions about where we're at, right? We have high inflation and we have higher interest rates. You know, maybe it's going to last a little longer than people would want originally. But it's kind of funny, too, like it's all these different headlines of, oh, we're about to have this huge crash. And I just saw yesterday, you know, as we're at this recording, you know, we hit $1 trillion of credit card debt. We're about to just implode as a country. But you have to look at the whole picture, right? So many times, like the headlines are just looking at one data point and not looking at it relative to other data points. And sure, that, that's a big number, but it's actually as a percent of total savings of a consumer, it's the lowest that has been in 20, in 20 years. Right. So even though we have higher credit card debt, we actually— it's only 20% of total savings of consumers. And so we actually have $5 trillion of excess savings on consumers' balance sheets. Right. So it's, you know, to me, there's these, you know, we're hitting some speed bumps, but we've got a lot of strength in the underlying economy. And a lot of cash on the sidelines. So I mean, what's your expectation? I mean, if there are deals to be had, are you expecting a correction or what's kind of your thought from jumping back in and buying more single-family?

Yeah, it's a really fine line. It's a really fine balance because, you know, there's so much conflicting data. My, you know, after talking to individuals such as yourself and other investors is So from 2009 to around, you know, 2022, basically it was basically Bernanke, you know, they reset the interest rates to zero basically. And basically we're in a zero interest rate environment. And now I think that now that that's done, they're going back to this 5%. So a lot of people say the Fed is going to cut, but I personally think that they're going to keep interest rates in that ballpark for a much longer time unless we have something like a Lehman or another COVID or some big crisis. You know, they're always talking about the unemployment numbers and the economy is strong. I mean, we know they talked about why is the Fed raising rates with, you know, with, you know, consumer spending. So I think people are going to adjust to this new environment. One thing is that's on my radar is basically with the real estate, which is why I'm a little bit more cautious, is because with single families, you know, everybody's going to buy a home. You know, you have to avoid overinflated, overheated markets. But with this work from home and this remote work, I think commercial real estate is something to keep an eye on. And, you know, a lot of, you know, space in San Francisco, New York City, the offices are empty. You know, and so that's something to keep an eye on. And, you know, especially in this high interest rate environment. So that's, that's could be the next domino to fall. I'm not sure. But, you know, that's something to keep an eye on.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, you know, commercial real estate has some headwinds. You know, it's important to distinguish what asset classes in commercial real estate, right, because people lump it all together, but the real, the real big challenging one is going to be office, right? People just don't know where that's going to land. And especially in these big metros on the coast that people have, you know, largely have, have kind of migrated to more kind of southern states and, and other places. You know, maybe we're having a back-to-work movement, but, you know, most estimates are saying that we're only 50% of where we were pre- pre-pandemic, right, from an office occupancy standpoint. And so I think the big question is what happens, right? What happens to office? I saw an article today on, you know, some initiatives where they're trying to create some incentives, like in San Francisco is a great example of converting some of these offices into multifamily housing. Right. And they're in, you know, great area, a lot of times close to, you know, good, good jobs. And so it could be a use for that, but it's still kind of early, still remains to be seen. But, you know, multifamily I think has, has some headwinds, but more of the headwinds I think are going to be related to some of the debt challenges, maturing debt that enabled a lot of these properties to be purchased a little too aggressively. But at the same time, we have a huge housing shortage that's not being solved anytime soon. You know, long-term trends are very supportive of anything housing related. So yeah, it's going to be interesting. You know, I'm not as, as bearish as some people are. And I just because I know how much is on the sidelines, both from consumers and from a lot of these big REITs and some of the biggest funds I've ever raised for real estate. Right. So there's still a lot of pressure on the demand side from an investment standpoint. And we still have a pretty strong economy, right? I mean, I'm kind of with you. I think there's going to be kind of this muddle through where we have, you know, these two competing forces. We have higher interest rates putting pressure on asset prices. We have a little bit higher inflation. And it's just kind of threading the needle here to, you know, make it through. But yeah, I mean, we're still looking for opportunities because it's— I think there's going to be some good opportunities over the next 12 to 18 months for sure.

Yeah, yeah, especially, you know, the investors that got in, you know, got in at the peak and then now they're not getting cash flow and their valuations are down, they can't refinance. You know, a couple of my investor friends, they've picked up some properties, you know, from there. So I was talking with another investor on my podcast the other day and he was basically saying, you know, the numbers still work out, you know, the cap rates are a little bit less, you know, than 10% or whatnot. But, you know, as long as he's holding it for long term, he's, you know, he's quote, not concerned. But again, that's not advice. But, you know, your, your margins may be less, but as long as you're investing for cash flow and for long term, you should be okay. So there's always opportunities. You have to just be more strategic and, you know, fight your— pick your fights and your battles appropriately.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Chris, this has been really fun. Thanks for sharing some of the kind of nitty-gritty and all that. And just like, what would be kind of your final advice for those that are on the sidelines, you know, whether they want to invest passively or actively and, you know, just can't make the leap yet? What would you say is kind of that first step to take?

Oh man, just start. I mean, the internet, start and just listen to podcasts and start You know, listening to YouTube, watching YouTube channels and, you know, picking up books and start asking questions, start plugging yourself into networks, you know, go to conferences, investor conferences, you know, spend— invest in yourself and then spend the time to learn it. And that way when the time comes, you know, you know, you can— when the right opportunity comes, you can, you can pounce on it. So really investing yourself during this time, investing your education, I mean, there's the internet is basically now it's not an agent now. Now we have to enter in the age of transformation. So you basically take the knowledge and information and assimilate it and apply it and use it appropriately. So information is everywhere these days.

So yeah, I love it. What's the best way for folks to kind of get connected with you? Tell them about the podcast and the things that they can do to learn more about what you're, what you're doing.

Yeah, they can check out my podcast. It's on Apple, Spotify. It's on all major platforms. It's Financial Freedom for Physicians with Dr. Christopher Loo. It's there. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, as well as Facebook. And we have a growing community. You can email me at chris@drchrisloomdphd.com.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Chris. It's really fun having you on and sharing your wisdom.

Thanks, man. I really enjoyed it.