Understanding Interval Funds feat. Kimberly Ann Flynn

All of the evergreen structures have requirements with respect to the distribution of income and realized gain. It can be thought of as an advantage in the sense that as an investor, what you're earning needs to be distributed. So they're flow-through vehicles. So the fund can't hold on to the gain necessarily and reinvest it. But when there is a realization, they can use it to provide distributions to existing shareholders so that all shareholders benefit from that realization.

Hello, future billionaires. Hey billionaires, welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. Today's episode is really interesting. We talk all about interval funds, closed-end funds, and this is kind of a niche in the alternative market that you may not have heard about. And I brought on an expert in this space. Her name is Kim Flynn, and she talks about the emergence of this new kind of area within alternatives that's really continuing to increase access. To alternative investments in through the use of what they call interval funds. So these are evergreen funds that give you access a lot of times at lower minimums into really institutional, previously inaccessible products like in private equity, in venture capital, as well as real estate, private credit, etc. But it's a really interesting thing because it kind of blends in between place of working with advisors, helping them get more access for their clients to alternative investments, but also direct-to-consumer platforms and direct-to-consumer ways that you can invest directly into these types assets. Very, very interesting. So if you have interest in how the landscape of alternative investments is changing and growing and access is increasing, definitely want to check it out. And at the very end, she talks about how non-accredited investors can actually get access to these types of investments based on some of these new structures. So if you're not accredited investor yet, you definitely want to listen to this episode and hear about how you can have access to some of these institutional quality products for very low minimums and not required to be accredited yet. So hope you enjoy the show. Here you go. This is the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast where we uncover the alternative investments and strategies that billionaires use to grow wealth. The tools and tactics you'll learn from this podcast will make you a better investor and help you build legacy wealth. Join us as we dive into the world of alternative investments, uncover strategies of the ultra-wealthy, discuss economics, and interview successful investors. Welcome back to another episode of the Invest Like a Billionaire podcast. I'm your host, Ben Frazier. Today we've got a really exciting guest, really excited to talk to her, Kimberly Flynn. She is the founder and managing director of XA Investments, and she's responsible for all their product business development activities. And very excited to talk about her area of expertise, which is closed-end funds, interval funds, and a really unique area within alternatives that we haven't spoken a lot about on the podcast. And so we went straight to the top and brought Kim on to talk about this whole area of alternatives. And she is very experienced. She got her MBA from Harvard. She's a CFA, a Chartered Financial Analyst, and brings a lot of experience and background in the space. So Kim, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Yeah. So give a little bit of background for those that maybe aren't familiar with you, XA Investments, and what you do, and then we'll kind of dive right in.

Sure. So we're a Chicago-based asset manager and we focus on alternative investments and making that area of the private markets more accessible for individual investors. We, we have two parts of our business. We actually consult with asset managers, and we also will consult with RAs that want to launch their own proprietary products. Most of the products build upon the expertise that we have in the closed-end fund space. You may have heard of an interval fund, you may not, but interval funds are a type of SEC-registered fund that allow people to access things like private equity, venture capital, infrastructure, and whatnot. And there's a lot of interest right now in particularly among financial advisors in trying to tap into the higher return potential from some of these alternative investments.

Yeah, makes sense. So for our audience, a lot of them are, you know, direct investing into real estate and, you know, into single asset syndication. Sometimes it is a fund. Generally, these are kind of closed-end funds. They have a short period of time raising the capital, they go deploy it. And, you know, get the returns along the way. A lot of what you're talking about, these are, are they traded on exchanges or they're non-traded? And they're usually sold through advisors and could be in different structures. So break down a little bit of, yeah, what is an interval fund? How does this work? How does someone get access to it? And what are, you know, some of the benefits of that?

Sure. So they can be offered both ways. So you may be familiar with a listed closed-end fund that that does trade on a stock exchange like the New York Stock Exchange. And they do trade similar to ETFs. Many of your listeners probably are investors in ETFs. So a listed closed-end fund, there are a handful of alternative investment-focused listed closed-end funds. And that's largely due to the way those products are brought to market. The universe of funds that's growing and very popular right now is something that's not listed. It's not traded. It is continuously offered. So just like a mutual fund, you can buy shares at NAV, but interval basically speaks to the frequency with which liquidity is offered. So you can imagine if you're investing in private equity, liquidity is going to be limited because those are investments made with very long investment horizons. And so interval funds right now, I mentioned they're SEC registered, so you get the protections of the 1940 Act, and you know, you get conveniences like a 1099, just like you would a mutual fund. But they're, I would say, individual investors probably are less familiar or haven't heard of interval funds. And so I would talk with your wealth manager or talk with a financial advisor to the extent you work with one. Right now, Some of the products are offered with no suitability restrictions at all. So an example would be a private credit fund. And so that allows entry for very small minimum investments to a, a really large audience of people. Now, private equity or venture capital, for example, typically would be restricted to accredited investors or higher. And so I mentioned suitability only because It's a question with, you know, if you're familiar with investing in private funds, typically you have to meet some minimum suitability threshold. So the thresholds tend to be lower here, but you often have to talk with a financial advisor about getting access to a product like this as opposed to— there are a couple direct-to-consumer platforms that are starting to add interval funds. And I think in 12 to 18 months, we're going to see a lot more direct-to-consumer type options, and I'm happy to go into that in greater detail.

Yeah, yeah, I'd love to hear some more on that. And it's interesting, you kind of mentioned the advisors are looking for options to be able to allocate to different alternatives. And, you know, we don't come from the advisory space, but what we have seen in some of the advisors we work with is the system is pretty challenging, at least historically, for advisors to make allocations into alternatives because they're generally not on the same platforms. They can't collect AUM fees off it. Many times, you know, there can be conflicts of interest and other things that, you know, they have fiduciary responsibilities and, you know, they can't perform the due diligence needed most of the time on these types of products. But historically speaking, a lot of times, you know, these other private market opportunities can provide higher returns as you get that illiquidity premium and a lot less volatility because they're not mark-to-market daily usually. So talk a little bit about maybe from what you're seeing on just an overall, are you seeing more appetite, more kind of capital moving to these types of assets? And then how do these structures kind of create more access to the alternatives than maybe historically?

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. This space is growing quite rapidly, anywhere between a 15% to 20% compounded annual growth rate if you're looking at a number of funds or if you're looking at assets in the space. And the types of fund sponsors, the market has now reached a point where north of 200 funds, interval and tender funds. So there's actually a lot of great fund sponsors and alternative investments to choose from. And I think part of, as this market continues to grow at a very rapid pace, you're seeing new entrants from both traditional firms like mutual fund sponsors and also alternative boutiques, firms that were primarily running, you know, private real estate or private equity in a private fund format. And so you're going to see investment opportunities that you can't access and you frankly can't structure in a mutual fund or an ETF. And that, the reason for that is there are strict rules about liquidity for mutual funds and ETFs, whereas these products, you know, in theory, 100% of the portfolio could be deemed less liquid or illiquid. So, you have a lot more flexibility. Practically speaking, you're going to have a portion of the portfolio that is a liquidity sort of sleeve so you can allow people to get in and out of the fund. And so this is an area that's growing very rapidly and is expected. McKinsey says that the sort of retail democratization of alternatives, this trend is only going to continue because the responsibility and the burden for retirement is really on the shoulders of individual investors. And what those individual investors need is some of these institutional investment opportunities that they may not have otherwise had access to. But surely an endowment or a pension fund, you know, they have access to the best private equity sponsors. And so that's what we're trying to make more available to the average, you know, end client.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And From my understanding, you know, historically if someone wanted to get access to, you know, one of the top tier private equity funds or venture capital funds, it's pretty difficult, right? Because you have to either write a huge check or you have to have the right network. And if a lot of times they were traded through broker-dealer networks and, you know, not necessarily on platforms or through these kind of different access funds. And so, what you're doing is trying to create the pipeline and make the ability for people to access these easier, simpler, better structures. I mean, talk a little bit about just some of the mechanisms that you're using. 'Cause in my mind, a closed-end fund, at least in our side of it, if it's, you know, we're raising for capital for say real estate or private credit, we have a short period of time we raise the capital, We close that and we go deploy it and there is no liquidity for the whole rest of the fund's life.

Right.

But you're saying that there are platforms that either have secondary market liquidity or the fund itself actually has liquidity. Talk a little bit about what, what that looks like.

Yes. The, the fund is mandated by SEC rules to provide liquidity. So a typical liquidity window for an interval fund would be a quarterly liquidity amount, and they would set aside 5% to conduct repurchases. Now, more than 5% of shareholders might want out of the fund at any one moment in time. You know, this would be something we've observed in the non-listed, you know, REIT marketplace in the last 2 years. Now, so, bearing in mind that these are long-term investments where you should be ready to be in a fund for multiple years on end, you are offered this liquidity window. And to the extent that there's liquidity to offer, you could receive your entire request or you could be prorated if there is more demand than there is supply for liquidity. And so that, you know, limited amount of liquidity I think is helpful for investors in terms of how do they think about this. You know, you don't have to set it and forget it entirely like you might some other types of alternative investments. But I think the reason for that, these products are called semi-liquid or inter— they offer intermittent liquidity. So it's kind of the way to think about interval funds being grouped in with other semi-liquid products like non-listed REITs or non-listed BDCs. Which have similar sort of liquidity windows.

Okay. Yeah, very interesting. And to your earlier point, historically these types of funds that are, you know, venture capital-focused or private equity-focused, they can sometimes have 10-year investment cycles that they're targeting to return all the capital and profits. But that's a long time, right? I don't know where I'm going to be in 10 years, and if I have no liquidity, it can make it a challenging to write that check. But, you know, obviously you want to be able to hold in for the whole period if needed. But having the option of liquidity can be a helpful tool.

And that's why these are also called evergreen structures in the sense that they will continually invest and reinvest. And so there's not, with a drawdown fund with a set termination date, one of the benefits with that is that, you know this fund is going to terminate in 10 years. Now, these funds are perpetual and they're evergreen in nature. And so your exit needs to be coordinated with one of these liquidity windows, which is another reason why they offer this type of liquidity, because the fund will go on beyond, you know, the point of, you know, when you decide to exit or another investor decides to exit, it's your choice on timing. And so it does— I think you hear a lot of firms, some of the market leaders in the private equity space like a Blackstone. You also see firms like Apollo and KKR. They all have interval and tender fund products because these evergreen structures they view as sort of the wave of the future in terms of how they're building their businesses. Now, there's clearly motivations that they have But what you were talking about in terms of you want to be able to access some of the best institutional quality alternative managers, well, all of the big alternative managers have already entered this space, and some of them now have 2 or 3 fund offerings. It's not just a, you know, they're not dabbling anymore in this market. It's now, it's really an area where people are kind of staking out their territory. And they're spending a lot of resources on educating investors and advisors on how to use these types of products in the portfolio.

Yeah, very interesting. From a sponsor's perspective, what's the advantage of an interval fund to them? Why is that appealing to kind of have an evergreen fund versus a self-liquidating or set time period?

Well, I mean, the number one selfish motivation would be that the retail market is anticipated to, to continue outpacing the institutional marketplace in terms of the speed and the rate of the growth. And that's expected to continue for the next 20 years. So the retail market is where they need to be. And if you want to access the individual investor, you need to go through an SEC-registered fund format. And this is really the only way to access the individual investor through these types of product structures. Because as you were saying, a lot of investors don't meet the minimums to go into a private fund. And frankly, they may not want the hassle of a K-1. You know, that's not for everyone. If you're very wealthy or you run a family office, you probably have quite a few private fund investments. But so that's why this is really opening up a whole nother world for these large alternative boutiques, you know, this is not goodwill on their part. This is a sizable growing market opportunity. And the reason for that, as you know, is, you know, we don't have, you know, corporate pensions anymore. I've got a 401, I'm saving for my retirement. And so that pool of capital is no longer in the hands of the pension fund managers. You know, it's in the hands of individual retirees. And so therefore you have to have a way or a means by which to access and make these available to individuals.

That makes a lot of sense. When they're putting out these funds, are these going to be sidecars alongside other funds, or these are actually, you know, funds that go make the investments themselves and Or are they kind of creating this as an ability to offer liquidity alongside of one of their funds, or how does it structure generally?

It can be done a number of different ways. You want to make sure as an investor that you're getting access, you know, to the good stuff, if you will, right? You want the institutional quality strategy. You don't want some watered-down or something different, right? You don't want a beta product. You want, you know, and so, so therefore we always talk about, you know, preserving the institutional integrity. You don't want to change the strategy, you don't want to water it down. And so these structures allow you to do that. They allow you to take a private fund strategy and build it pretty much the same way. We've already talked about the liquidity requirements. So you do tend to keep anywhere from 5% to 20% of the portfolio in liquid assets to be able to meet repurchases. So that's the one departure that's necessary. And so I would say some firms are being very more thoughtful than others about how they think about liquidity management. Some of them will use leverage facilities so that they're not sitting in a bunch of cash creating cash drag, but having something that The firms themselves, these pools of capital are usually invested directly. And so, to avoid having layers of fees, you know, individual investors don't want to be paying double. You don't want to be paying two layers of fees. And so, you know, and these funds for leading alternative managers become quite sizable, and therefore they become quite lucrative. So, you're seeing them deploy capital In the private credit space, it's almost all the time direct deployment, you know, into credit securities, things like direct lending, things like asset-backed lending, things like niche, you know, income strategies. Now, in private equity, to your point, it's a bit more mixed. There are some funds that will invest directly in like late-stage private companies. Like in company employee gray shares, things of that nature so that you, you can invest directly. Most of the bigger private equity funds are fund of fund, multiple private funds within. And so sometimes you see it as a direct, sometimes you do see it as a fund of funds. And so that's— those are the questions you want to be thinking about in terms of, you know, what am I paying to go direct versus something that might be a fund of funds where you do have two layers of fees. Part of the benefit of having a fund of funds in addition to diversification is that it does allow you to build a product that can be sold with a lower suitability potentially. So, Typically it's an accredited investor. So there's a lot of asset class specific considerations for each of these different types of products. It's slightly different depending on the asset class.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it could be a fund to fund, it could be a direct investment into a fund. That's right. But to your point, if it's a fund to fund, most people balk at that 'cause, hey, I got multiple layers of fees. But if that fund-to-fund gives access to multiple different strategies and increase my diversification, then that could actually decrease the requirements from a suitability standpoint to create more access. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, and I think it, in theory, it reduces risk. I think some of the most successful private equity funds have been fund of funds. So they've replicated an institutional fund of fund strategy. And so that's appropriate. The question is, is do we— there's also to acknowledge, I think some of the alternative asset managers, there are capacity constraints on venture capital is a good example. And so, you know, you don't want to invest in venture capital with like a tier 2 or tier 3 manager, right? The manager selection in some of these alternative investments is particularly important. So if you can get access to a better quality private equity manager or venture capital manager through a fund of funds, then that's why that structure may be better than going, going direct with a lesser firm or a less well-known firm into venture capital, just because the dispersion of the returns among the portfolio investments is much, much wider. And manager skill plays a really important part of driving overall risk and return, because as you know, you know, you're not making money on every single venture capital investment in the portfolio.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Come back to the evergreen structure. So if I'm a sponsor and I'm making long-term investments as a venture capitalist into these portfolio companies, at a certain point there's going to be an exit, hopefully, right, from, from some of these companies where they either go public, they get acquired. So there's going to be natural big liquidity events within the fund. But if the fund is perpetual, is the idea that they just continue to reinvest those profits back into new companies, less whatever liquidity is at that point. And how does that structure being evergreen potentially change the strategy, either for better or for worse, from a sponsor standpoint? If this is going to go on forever, do I do longer-term investments or do I just continue to redeploy? Or what's the thought process there? Because that does kind of change the structure and the potential types of investments you might make given, given the fund?

Yes. All of the evergreen structures have requirements with respect to the distribution of income and realized gain. And so it, it can be thought of as an advantage in the sense that as an investor, what you're earning, you know, needs to be distributed. So they're flow-through vehicles. So the fund can't hold on to the gain necessarily and reinvest it. But for when there is a realization, they can use it to provide distributions to existing shareholders so that all shareholders benefit from that realization. And so the benefit, I think, is that you're not up against a set term where you have to liquidate everything. Because as we know, those liquidations aren't going to come together at the same time, and they may or may not be— they may or may not have tails on it in terms of when you sell a position. And so the natural liquidity in a mature portfolio helps you be able to satisfy shareholders' desires for attractive levels of distribution and gain, because under the '40 Act, you are required to pay those through. There is an ability to retain a small portion of the gain and to pay excise tax, but it's not very common that this happens. And so you can think of these as, you know, what I'm earning will get paid to me, and then a lot of investors will reinvest whatever distributions, you know, back into the fund, but they could also take their cash flow and reinvest as they see fit into other investment opportunities. So you're, you know, when there are, as you go, let's say this realization happened in year 4 or year 7, it's in the current fund fiscal year that that would need to be paid out to you. It's an annual requirement that these distributions be made to shareholders.

Got it. That makes sense. Talk a little bit about valuations of the underlying assets, because in a fund that is trading at NAV, in my mind, that would be kind of the first concern, right? Is how— what's— especially with these portfolio companies that, you know, aren't publicly traded and, you know, what's the valuation methodology if I'm, you know, coming in at that current NAV or I'm trading out at that current NAV? How does that impact— what's the methodology behind that? Is that standardized based on these types of funds? Is it something to pay attention to as an investor?

Yes, absolutely. Because, you know, part of it speaks to transparency. A lot of the, for example, the private credit funds in the market, many of them are actually daily NAV. And some of them are conducting valuation pursuant to their policies internally. And many of the funds are using external third-party valuation agents to strike that daily NAV. And so it's permitted. You can do it either way. You can do it in-house or you can have a third party conduct the valuation. Now, when you move into less liquid assets, Things like private equity or, or maybe infrastructure, you're going to see a monthly NAV more typically, or even a quarterly NAV. And we were talking a moment ago about fund-to-funds because the underlying private funds are marking valuation on a quarterly basis. You'll often see those fund-to-funds align with the valuation frequency and timing of the underlying private funds. So, and I think where there can be a disconnect is to the extent that, you know, as a fund, you're required to follow your evaluation policies and procedures. And if you have a daily NAV, you have to follow those procedures every day. Where I think there becomes a disconnect, particularly on daily NAV funds, is what if the values of the assets in the portfolio don't change every day? And that may be, if you're talking about maybe, you know, direct lending, but other things, other factors, the market is moving every day. And so some funds will use algorithms or they'll use formulas or they'll look at market indices, things just like you would pick a benchmark that would move directionally in the same direction as your portfolio. They're sometimes they're using these market indicators because you can't just say, well, the NAV is the same as yesterday. You need to be thoughtful of the market environment. You know, in, in March of 2020, valuations moved very, very quickly in the span of 2 days. And so your valuation process needs to pick up some of those macro moves in addition to things that are more micro or at the portfolio level. And so this can get really tricky, particularly if you've got a long-duration asset or an illiquid asset like infrastructure. You know, you're not buying or selling an airport, you know, every other quarter or even every other year. So it's harder to ascertain. You know, you may have to do an appraisal of real estate or an appraisal of farmland to actually get a value, but that value's not going to change from week to week. And so that's where more questions come in regarding, is my value true? And I think you, you all have read in the press in the last year and a half a lot of concerns about, you know, private equity, venture capital. A lot of money was deployed in 2021, but the valuations didn't really seem to come down very much. And, and, you know, we saw that in the broader equity market as well. So I think there's a lot of good reason to question because there's definitely, there can be lags in terms of some of these illiquid assets. And if the assets are not selling, then there's no mark on that asset. So it's a really, it's a, you need to be thoughtful about how, because you want to make sure you're not overpaying if you're buying an asset or getting less than you should be if you're selling.

Right, right. So look at the underlying methodology in the fund, and if it's investing in securities, it has more liquid, you know, daily mark-to-market information. That's simpler. But to your point, if it's more illiquid, longer duration, and the values don't change day to day, understand what that process is for how frequent they're being valued, what methods are being used, et cetera. Talk a little bit about, for non-accredited investors, you know, what options are there for them? You kind of mentioned that there might be access even if you're not accredited yet, which to me is a huge bonus, right? For a lot of people that aren't quite there yet that have access to more traditional things for that. If you're an accredited investor, if you're not, what does that look like? Is it the suitability standards? Are there certain options for you that you could still invest in?

Yeah, the two biggest categories in the interval and tender fund market are private credit and real estate. And a majority of the real estate and credit funds are available for any investor that you don't have to meet a suitability minimum. Things like private equity, you do tend to have to have a higher suitability. Sometimes it's accredited, sometimes it's qualified client. But more than half of the funds in the market, so over 100 funds, has been in, you know, an area which has attracted a lot of demand, which is a growing number of credit strategies with very attractive yields. You're talking about yields north of 10%. So there's a reason to look beyond traditional fixed income investments into some of these different types of alternative credit. And so that's, I think, a good place to start exploring. A lot of investors who come into the interval fund market are already, or have already invested in business development companies, either listed BDCs or non-listed BDCs. And many of them have had real estate experience too. So these exposures to private credit or real estate in the interval fund space can be diversifying, but there's also a comfort level because of a lot of investors have already had a prior experience in those markets.

Okay. And what would the kind of range of investment minimums be for these types of funds? Are they going to be, you know, several hundred thousand dollars? Is it going to be, you know, in the thousands? Is it— I'm sure it's a big range, but—

Yes, I mean, commonly you see $2,500 as a minimum investment. Sometimes you see $10,000. So most of the fund sponsors want these products to be accessible. You know, an I share, it may be $100,000, but you're probably gonna buy the A share or the C share with a much lower investment minimum. So they are accessible in that way.

Okay, which is another huge advantage. I mean, most of the, you know, private equity and the real estate, you know, 506 offerings that, we live in the world of mostly minimums are at least $50,000, a lot of times $100,000 or, you know, much, much higher. So having access to lower minimums is another great benefit too, aside from the diversification. Talk a little bit again about access, right? So this is an emerging area of the interval funds, closed-end funds. You said most of the time, you know, they would work through an advisor, but there are some direct-to-consumer platforms. Talk about if someone is hearing about this for the first time on this podcast, what's kind of the next step? Where do they go find out more information about these types of funds?

Sure. So, I mean, we have a lot of education on my website, which is xainvestments.com. You can contact me if you want to learn more. The direct-to-consumer options, I'm going to give you 3 examples. Of firms that are targeting this, this side of the investment universe. And so firms that have been successful— Fundrise is a direct-to-consumer platform. It has a number of interval funds, and they've been very successful capital raising in the real estate and real assets. So take a look at Fundrise. I don't actually know them. I've not talked with them. I've just We just take note of the firms that have been successful. So another firm, Yieldstreet. Yieldstreet has been in the news because of their direct-to-consumer product offering. They offer a number of different institutional alternatives, but they also have a number of interval funds available. They're also— they acquired a firm called Cadre, which was focused on real estate as well. But I know Yieldstreet has more than just real estate. They have credit, they have a few other asset classes. And then a third option that I recently learned about was SoFi. SoFi has actually launched a direct-to-consumer platform for interval and tender funds, and their initial menu of funds, I think they have 8 or so, I believe, like the Carlyle Tactical Credit and perhaps the Apollo. I noticed on the SoFi list that there were a lot of the big brands that we just talked about today. So those are 3 interesting options. The SoFi announcement was actually just made last month. So I think we're going to see more firms opening up. You don't, you don't need a financial advisor in any of these 3 examples that I've just given you. You can go to their website and you can find out more information at Fundrise, Yieldstreet or at SoFi.

Yeah, got it. Makes sense. And then if you wanna get access to some of the bigger kind of private equity or venture capital firms, would that be, I mean, it sounds like SoFi's potentially opening the door to a couple of those, but would that generally be through an advisor or?

That's true. And I, you're right, I, to differentiate between Fundrise, which is proprietary, their branded, their investment expertise, that's how they're offering those products. Yieldstreet, I think it's a mix of both their proprietary investment capabilities and third-party firms, whereas SoFi, it looks like the platform that they've built is entirely these third-party pedigreed alternative managers. And so yes, I mean, the firms and the products that they've onboarded, this is a list of firms that have a long institutional track record of success. And the funds themselves, while they may be newer, they've onboarded funds that are going to be of interest to a broad audience. They— I'll just say they haven't picked a bunch of niche funds. I think they're, uh, the ones that they've selected, I think. And the intention is to add more to their platform as they go.

Got it. Okay, awesome. Well, we're going to put some of the links in the show notes here. You mentioned you have some research, maybe some white papers. What are some resources that we can provide to the listeners if they want to get more information and learn more about XA Investments?

Yeah, absolutely. Our firm, we focus on private credit, so we have a number of white papers in our knowledge bank. We also actively publish research on the interval and tender market. We do a monthly market update, so you can subscribe on our website if you'd like to follow the trends in the market. And we, you know, we try to be sort of democratic in our approach and we're covering all products and all sponsors. And so if you have any questions, we're happy to point you in the right direction.

Awesome. We'll put some of those links in the notes for people to check out. And Kim, really appreciate you coming on the show today. This is really interesting.

Thank you. I appreciate it.