Non-Fiction Book Editing Masterclass (Deep Dive Replay)

On the road, guys. Happy Saturday. Thanks for taking time out of your Saturday to come listen to us talk about different things with books. So today's topic is going to be all things editing. So we have a couple people from our team here. I'll introduce myself and then I will have them talk a little bit about themselves as well. That sounded weird. So I am Angela. I'm the operations manager here at Book Launchers. And you guys have probably seen me on past deep dives and on past YouTube lives. I participate in those very, very regularly and I do a lot of things back of house here at Book Launchers. So I am helping keeping some of the operational trains running while also providing some things that we need like hiring and lead screening and just doing some of those fun things that help keep the company functioning. So we also have with us Elissa Greaser. So, Elissa, go ahead and tell us about your role, please.

Yes. Hi everybody. I'm so glad to see so many people here and some familiar faces and names. That's awesome. I am an author concierge here at Book Launchers, which basically means I work closely primarily with our Platinum plus and VIP clients, acting as their primary point of contact and so source of one on one support as they move through our process. But I also get to work with our Platinum clients. I answer support emails and I take calls where needed. So if you're a client with Book Launchers, I've probably talked to you at some point or another. So hi, a little bit about my background. I have both undergraduate and graduate degrees in English and my professional background prior to Book Launchers lies in writing, mainly fiction and editing, but both fiction and nonfiction. So while I don't do any writing or editing on Book Launchers clients projects, I do draw from my background and my expertise in those areas in my role as author concierge and when doing fun things like this, like spending a Saturday talking about editing, which is one of my favorite topics. So glad you're here. I'm really excited.

Awesome. Yes. And yeah, both Elissa and Roy. I'll let Roy introduce himself in just a second. They have been with us both for almost two years. We're. Yeah, it's coming up just a couple months away from being two years, which is super exciting. We absolutely love having them on the team. They're both just fantastic. And you're going to see, you're going to see that in just a little bit. So Roy, please go ahead and introduce yourself.

Well, hello everybody. As Angela said, my name is Roy and I've been with Book Launchers for almost two years along with Elissa. I'm a client care specialist and so that means I'm working on the support side of things with both Jacqueline, who's our production manager, and Elissa. We all sort of do the emails and respond to you all moving your project along in the back end, making sure that we get that book to a polished place that's ready to be published. So I'm excited to work with you all. If anyone's on here, there's a lot of people, so I can't see everyone yet, but it's good to see you all.

Yes. And how I mentioned when I was introducing myself how I keep the trains running. On the operational side, Elissa and Roy are hugely important to keeping our book projects moving forward, so they are absolutely vital figures in our Book Launchers team. So, okay, we are continuing to have people fill in. If you're just joining, please do feel free to tell us where you're watching from and don't hesitate to participate in the chat. And before we dive in, if you have questions along the way, please do submit them to the chat. I would ask that since Elisa will be giving us all of her knowledge, we don't want to bog her down or distract her with sending direct messages to her. So if anyone doesn't feel comfortable putting a comment or a question out in the group for everyone to see, you can DM me. Otherwise, please just post it for everyone. I will be keeping track of the questions so that we can get to all of them, or as many as we have time for. We will be ending promptly at. What's 3 o' clock for me? Because I'm in Eastern. And what is that for Pacific? I don't know. What would that be? 1 o'?

Clock?

What? No, 12 o' clock. Pacific. Took my brain a second to convert that. So we will be ending right on time today. Okay, well, Elissa, you should be able to share your screen if you're ready to dive in, and if not, let me know and I will allow you to share screen. It's not letting you.

I think I can.

Okay. And actually, you know what? Oh, my goodness. Before we get started, I didn't even think about it. Let's start off with a prize. I'm sorry, Alyssa. You were starting to get your engines revved and I was like, we're missing something. Let's go ahead and start off with a prize. We've had lots of people say hello in the chat and where they are from, so I Am going to count the 10th person to have said hello in the chat and I will message you because you will be a prize winner. So the prizes of choice today is we have a very select T shirts that have our old logo on their very select sizes. Though we do also have a copy of Julie's book Self Publishing and Succeed, a hashtag newboring books ceramic mug or an oh so soft journal. Now we do ship outside of North America. However, if you are outside North America because shipping fees are insane, you will be choosing either from the Self Publish and Succeed or the oh so soft Journal. But those are our four prize options. So let me count from the top. One, two, three. Okay. Of course it's Ms. Cynthia. And Cynthia, you are comment number 10, Cynthia Pan. So I will message you, you are one of our lucky winners today. So okay, Elissa, now you can officially dive in to all of your knowledge.

Okay, good deal. I think, I think I've got it. Can everybody see my first slide? Okay.

Yeah, you're good.

Okay, excellent. All right, so welcome to this deep dive. Our primary focus today is going to be on editing, as we've talked about. And the biggest thing is about what editing do you need the different types of editing and you know, when, what's the right time to, you know, edit a project? So let's talk a little bit about. I didn't move, did it? There we go. Do you need a professional editor? Is the first thing we're going to talk about here. Then we'll go through self editing versus working with a professional editor. We'll go over editing programs and how they differ from human editors and then different types of professional editing. And finally at the end, we'll talk a little bit about how to find trustworthy editors and what to expect from that process. So to start us off with a quote here, this is one of my favorites from Stephen King and his book on writing where he said, to write is human and to edit is divine. I think it starts us off on the right foot today. So to begin, do you need a professional editor? The answer to this is a resounding yes. Yes, you do. Unequivocally, yes. No matter how skilled a writer you are or how experienced or how many, even dozens of books you have under your belt, even the most experienced writers will tell you you need an editor. And the more qualified and experienced they are, the better. But we'll talk a little bit more about why as we go through. So one of the big questions that I get asked in my role is about the difference between self editing and working with a professional editor. So these things are not the same. And when we talk about self editing, I would actually encourage you to think about it more in terms of revision. Taking a rough draft of a book or whatever you're working on and revising it, improving it. Professional editing is a whole different process. So let's talk about that a little bit more. So with self editing, we're talking about revising your rough draft. And this is when you finished writing it and you're going back through. I always recommend that you let it rest for a little bit first. I've heard people recommend as long as six months between drafting something and revising it. But I can admit that as a writer myself, I've never had the patience to wait a whole six months before going back to a project. So a couple of weeks to a month at the bare minimum, so that you can come to it with fresh eyes. And maybe that autocorrect in your brain won't get in your way quite so much. But what you're looking to do when you're revising your own work is to identify and fill in gaps in information. Perhaps there are places where you weren't ready to write it when you went through the first time, or you only partially explained something, or you realize now, having written the whole thing, that there's a piece that your readers will need to understand something later in the book. It's a great thing for you to go through and look for those things yourself. You could also adjust wording for clarity. You could look for places where, if you're like me, you were going so quickly and you left words out, or you doubled words, or you wrote the wrong word and you're not sure why, but it doesn't quite make sense. You may be able to catch some of those things for yourself, which is great. You may also look for places to add details or examples. I've worked with clients who, after they've written the whole thing and they've started talking to it or talking about it with people, they realize that they have a better explanation or a better way to talk through something with people. So they go back into their books and they make those kinds of adjustments. That's excellent. You may also be able to catch some typos, catch some careless mistakes, or maybe even identify some errors in logic or explanation. All of those things are very valuable and they'll make your project better when it's time for it to go to the editor. But they don't replace place professional editing. So if you're doing all of that in revising or self editing, then what is left for the professional editor? Well, their job is to take what you've revised, what you've brought to the highest level you're capable of bringing it to and taking it to that next level. They'll use their objectivity, their technical skills, their experience to reveal more ways that you can improve your manuscript. So the stronger it is when it goes to an editor, the more they'll be able to kind of dig into it and elevate it. If you send them something very rough where they have to look at trying to correct very basic things, there's not going to be as high a ceiling for how far your book can go without more and more rounds of editing. And we'll talk about that a little bit later when we talk about how long editing takes and how expensive it can be. Editors will also take into consideration things like publishing industry standards or applying a consistent style guide. The Chicago Manual of Style is the standard for the publishing industry. But if you're writing in law, for instance, you'll need to pay attention to the blue book. And if you're writing specifically for medicine, you may want to stick with the American Medical association style guide. A professional editor should be able to work with you on applying those things, consistency, consistently. They'll also analyze things like tone. They'll keep an eye on genre expectations and so much more. It's easy to think of editing as proofreading of, you know, oh, I don't want any commas out of place. And that is actually very important. And we will talk about that when we get into proofreading. But the whole professional editing process is so much more than just correcting errors. It has to do with improving and strengthening the overall writing and catching those errors and looking at mechanics of style and things like that, which we'll talk about as we get a little bit further along. The next thing that I also get asked about a good deal is editing programs. So I'll have people ask me, you know, can I just use Grammarly or, you know, ProWritingAid? Doesn't that do essentially the same thing? What about AutoCrit, which is fairly new and it's aimed primarily at fiction writers and people are really excited about it, but it also has its limits. I do think that Grammarly and ProWritingAid have value, but they don't replace professional editing. I think I put it on here twice. I did. So I'll say it again. Better editing programs can be helpful during the self editing phase. But they are not a replacement for professional editing, primarily because they have their limits. They are programmed to look for specific things and with specific style guides in mind as far as grammatical and punctuation rules are concerned. So they can catch some typos and some grammatical errors, such as a simple subject, verb agreement or disagreement. And if you're just starting out, you may actually learn a lot from using one of these programs to help you revise. It may help you identify what words you often misspell or grammar mistakes you often make. Because there can be a big difference between how we speak and what reads well on the paper. And so you may be very comfortable talking about these areas of expertise for yourself. But when you put it on the page, you may find that there are common mistakes that you often make. And these programs can be great as educational tools to help you improve your baseline. However, there's a lot they can't do. These programs, although they are continuing to get better and better. They fall short on things like analyzing overall structure, which we're going to talk about when we get into content editing. They can't really talk about the connectivity of ideas and whether something you talk about in chapter two relates really strongly to something you talk about in chapter seven. They can't help so much with word flow or voice or consistency of tone or intentional changes in tone or even readability. Because readability isn't just about reading level, which some of these programs can help with. So reading level has more to do with vocabulary and complexity of sentence structure, for instance. But overall readability is a lot more complex and a lot more subjective. And that's where that human eye comes in. They.

I kind of want to pause there for a second just to let that sink in with people, because that's.

Yeah.

You know, that's so important. Is that human aspect of your brain understanding what it is that is being read. And that content doesn't make sense. Whereas with these systems, as incredible as they are and how far they have come, it's kind of scary. But yeah. And what they're doing is they're looking at that sentence or maybe that paragraph, but not the overall structure and content. And so when it's breaking down and making sure that there's no misspellings or that the grammar makes sense, it's not necessarily looking at the content itself. And is it relating to your overall topic for your book? So I think that is really important to note as well, is that human element of a professional editor. You can't escape the value that that's going to bring for a manuscript.

Correct. That's a really good point, Angela. And they also struggle with anything that is kind of subtle, like I say here, sentence structure, word choice, meaning, and also purposeful errors. And actually, this is something that's really important to talk about when you talk about human editor. So we do want to avoid accidental errors. But there may be places in your manuscript, depending on what you're writing about, where you intentionally use incorrect grammar or less than ideal grammar in order to express a certain tone or for your voice to still come through clearly or to be funny. And these programs, they cannot identify the difference between an purposeful error and just a plain regular error. And so they would eliminate all of those out of your manuscript, and then it stops sounding like you and start sounding like an AI editing program, which is not what we want at all. So they do have value. And many writers that I work with, both in and outside of Book Launchers, they use them, but more during their revision steps and definitely not as a replacement for that, that human eye. Actually, just recently, I worked with one of our authors who had won part of his manuscript through, I believe it was Grammarly, and was very concerned that there was a lot more wrong than he realized. But I went through it with him and was able to say, like, actually, no, Grammarly is just wrong. It thought you were trying to say this, but. But you weren't. And so if you changed it according to what Grammarly is recommending, you would no longer be saying what you meant to say. So they can be really helpful, but you can't just blanket accept everything. And they don't replace that human element in editing. I suppose it is possible that sometime in the future that strikes fear into my very soul that they may be so good that we don't need human editors anymore. But today, thankfully, is not that day. They are helpful tools, but they do not replace those human professional editors.

Yeah, not at all. I was going to say Elsa. I was attempting to do that, except all because I've used prowritingaid myself in my own editing. And it's great for supplemental, but you do have to go one by one on those edits because it's interesting that sometimes you make the change that they suggest, and then it creates another change for that exact same thing. They just suggest a change. So it just confuses you even more and you really just spend a lot of time, like, spinning your wheels, wondering whether or not it's right, so.

Or going in circles.

Yes, and going in circles.

It's a really good point.

Yeah. And just to hop on and say a couple comments that people had left. And feel free, by the way, put comments in the chat. If you've got any questions, I will be noting them down. So please do feel free to submit any questions that come to mind. But a suggestion that Paula had put in the chat was I've used both ProWritingAid and Grammarly, and sometimes they will add a full stop instead of a comma, for example, when that's not the tone that the sentence was written in. So what she's found hugely helpful is to use word read aloud, which allows her to read, or it reads back the manuscript to her. She's found lots of little errors in punctuation or use of the same words. And yeah, reading your manuscript out loud or having someone else read it out loud to you is. Is very helpful because, yeah, when you see it on paper, it makes sense in your mind, but then when it's spoken, it might not make sense at all.

That's a great point.

And then Cynthia had written what she's done in the past, for example, is looked for an editor who has more life experience, experience and a sense of humor for her book. A machine cannot do that, at least not yet. The machines don't have a matching sense of humor.

They don't get our job.

Exactly.

That's a good point.

So, yeah, that's a really good point. And that's it. That's all I'll say for right now.

Okay, good deal. All right, so let's move on to talking about the different types of editing. So this is a crooked house, and I'm sorry, I don't build houses for a living. But what you'll see here is kind of how one way to conceptualize the different types of editing. And I am going to go through each one in more detail. But this is just sort of to give you that initial idea of how they build on one another and how they aren't interchangeable. So the content edit, which we're going to talk about first, is truly the foundational edit. It is the one that makes sure that you're ready to build by doing these additional rounds of editing. Copy Edit comes next, where it's focusing more on improving and correcting the writing itself, then fact check, then proofread. So keep this visual in mind as we go through. I don't want to bore you with repetition, so I'll go through each one of these individually. But just keep this visual in mind. They do stack. And the best thing I can say is keep in Mind, of course, you can't build the roof before you've poured the foundation. So proofreading before every other step is done would be an exercise in futility. It can be tempting to skip to it though, I admit. So let's talk about content edits. So content edits are sometimes called developmental or substantive editing. Here at Book Launchers, we'll just call it content editing for consistency and clarity. But you may hear other people refer to it by other terms and it's not incorrect if they do. So. This edit reviews the overall content, the building materials of your project. They take this high level view to get perspective and see how all of the pieces fit together. They are also analyzing your manuscript for structure, for flow, for clarity of concept. And of all of the other types of editing, this one is uniquely difficult to do for yourself. The analogy that I like to use is books are big and they maybe you've written articles or emails or blog posts, but a book is an entirely different thing. And when you get to that like 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 words, they get bigger than our brains can really process all at once. So like, if you've written an email, you can kind of skim over it and be like, okay, yeah, yeah, I've got it. You can't skim over 300 pages and hold it all in your mind at the same time. And this leads to what I call creative blindness, where you can't really even see anymore what all is there in your manuscript. You can't really see whether chapter one connects to chapter seven the way that you intended, or whether you used that story about your mom twice or just one time, or have you repeated a sentence several times because it's a really good idea and your reader really needs to do it, but you can't remember if you've used it yet or not. You're too close. So I think of it as like, perhaps you've had a garden in your backyard before and you were planting flowers or herbs or vegetables, let's say, and it was very manageable. You have just a few plants and you can take care of them. You can see what you're doing, no problem. But let's say you decide to do something much bigger and now you're wanting to plow whole fields, right? It's a massive project. So you may have all of the education, all of the knowledge, the expertise, the information that you need, equipment to plow that field, but as you're plowing it carefully, row by row, all you can see is what's in front of you and what you can see immediately around you, but you can't see the whole field at once. It's impossible. So you're plowing and you do your very best. But a content editor is like an expert who's worked with a lot of other people who've plowed massive fields, and they're very comfortable with everything to do with how long the rows should be and how many there should be and how to organize them so that you know they are exactly what your intended crop needs. And they go up in a helicopter and get this top down view and they can see everything you've done. They can see where things get a little bit crooked, where you only half finished a row that you probably didn't intend to do that way, or where you accidentally plowed two rows on top of each other. They have the perspective and the expertise to be able to analyze the full picture, identify problems, and then communicate to you exactly how to fix them from where you are knee deep in the mud trying to complete this goal that you set for yourself. So that's how I conceptualize content edits. They are providing something that you simply can't do for yourself. Because you might ask, oh, I could go up in a helicopter and get that view. But you really can't, not for yourself. There are plenty of editors who are also writers who can provide that for other writers but not do it for themselves. Because you can't separate yourself that way. Just, you're too close. You can't have that kind of objectivity and you need somebody else to give you that perspective.

And I just want to hop in there. And if any of you have worked with a writing coach or even a ghostwriter, this is something that we do here. Those are not the same people who are doing the content edit on the manuscript because of that same thought process of being too close to the manuscript. Like, if you're working with a writing coach, they might, might not be the actual one writing the manuscript, but they're still very familiar with what you're talking about and what your goal is with the book. And so you really need a fresh set, a completely fresh set of eyes to do that content edit. And then I had an example, but Alyssa, did you. Have you encountered that, that thought or questions you were Roy, with our clients before?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good, it's a really good question. And actually, the thing is, they're knee deep in the mud with you. They're right there. They're very close to your material as well. Your Ghostwriter, because they've written it and your writing coach, because they've read it multiple times, they're going through it with you, they're right there on ground level helping. And they also don't have that distance and objectivity necessary to provide that view of, of your project. So it's a good question, but no, they're, they're more like the buddy helping you plow those lines rather than, you know, the person that can give you that top down view.

Yeah. And we've had one of our authors, I was trying to find the, the older YouTube video or one of our authors provided some feedback on how helpful it was to work with a content editor because I think the author kind of considered it. The content editor in the most polite way possible is kind of like your own little troll looking for, you know, how people like get trolled on the Internet and they're going through and they're looking for holes in your manuscript because if you don't have an editor doing that when your book's published, there's going to be readers out there who are going to find those holes and they are going to let you know that they found those holes. Whether it's a review or maybe not purchasing the book, you know, or leaving a poor book rating, you know, whatever it is, they are going to find it so that that content editor is going to really go through and just kind of be like, does that make sense? Do you really want to put that out there? Like let's back this up or let's ship this. Because your readers will notice that if, if you don't get that done.

Absolutely. Oh yeah. They try to be avatars for your intended readers and look for places where something is missing that the reader might need or want, but also where, you know, playing devil's advocate to see where there might be gaps in argument.

Yes, devil's advocate is an excellent term and it can be painful, but it's so necessary. It's so very necessary for your manuscript.

I agree. They'll also be looking to make sure that everything made it out of your head and onto the paper. One thing that we talk about in the editing side of things is that sometimes experts are the worst people to teach beginners because they've lost touch with what is common knowledge and what isn't. So part of what a content editor is trying to do is identify whether there are gaps in information being provided that your intended audience might need in order to be able to understand the higher level concepts that you're sharing. This can Happen, too, with memoir, when you're telling a story about yourself or about your life, and you might leave out key details because you know them so well that you just sort of accept that detail and tell other things. But a content editor can help with going, oh, wait, hang on. Like, wait, I don't understand this, because this part of the story is missing. And it can be really hard to see that for yourself because you know it so very well. They also check to make sure that you're setting yourself up for success in terms of how you're presenting information to the reader. So that falls into things like, can they tell, really early in the manuscript, when they start reviewing it, what the book is about and who the book is for? They want to be able to identify the intended audience readily without outside information. And also, you know what it's about, what the reader can expect, because every book makes a promise, and part of the content editor's job is making sure that the promise is fulfilled over the course of the book. The promise you make in the beginning is one that has been met by the end, and that is the same promise that you don't say, hey, here's a book about abc. And then by the time you get to the end, it's like, well, that was more like, I don't know, ghi or something. I'm not sure. So that's part of what they're looking for. They're also looking to make sure you establish yourself clearly as an expert in your book. This can be a tricky one, depending on your field or your relationship to your project. Again, whether it's something very personal, like a memoir, or something very professional, like tax advice or, you know, business philosophy. And they're wanting to make sure that you set yourself up as someone that the reader should listen to. And it can be uncomfortable because a lot of us, myself included, can struggle with feeling like, where's that balance of ego and confidence? Right? How do I make sure people know they should listen to me without sounding like I've got a superiority complex or arrogant or just uncomfortable with the way that I'm presenting myself? And the content editor can help with that. They can help, you know, whether you should use personal experience or mention your educational background or one sentence that explains your professional authority so that that question is answered in the reader's mind early, because if they hold that question in their mind the whole time, they may actually be resistant to the content of your book because they're sitting there asking, why should I listen to them the whole way through. So that's one of the key things that a content editor looks for and something you can keep in mind in your own self editing as well. They also check to make sure that the foundation of your book is solid. This goes back to that building a house analogy. But they're looking to make sure that if you do include outside support, that it's strong enough and that it is enough. There may be places where they can say, you know, you don't technically need outside support, but if you brought it in, it would strengthen it and it would provide, you know, this kind of a different element for your reader. But they're also making sure that the internal logic is consistent, that the examples you give and the way that you talk about things are consistent throughout the whole manuscript because that is foundational to the reader's experience. They will look at the overall structure and the way that you framed the information, and they'll look for places where, where you can make the delivery more compelling. They're really good at analyzing, well, would the reader get bored here, or lost here or. One of the things that I talk about with my clients sometimes, and I did as an editor as well, is they also look for things that aren't branches but are trees. So I know I'm mixing metaphors and I'm going to do it throughout this whole thing, and I apologize. But if you think about your manuscript as a tree and each of the chapters are a branch off of that tree, they are supporting and connecting the overall purpose of your book. It's possible that you'll write something, a chapter or even several chapters that are actually not tightly connected enough to the overall topic of your book, because they actually need to be their own book. They're actually not branches, they're trees. And so they need to be moved out of this manuscript or pared back significantly in order to fit into the overall structure and flow. That is another thing that can be really hard to see for yourself because hopefully you're writing about something you're passionate about and interested in. And all of those pieces may feel like essential branches, but somebody coming in from the outside will go, no, this is, this doesn't quite work here. It doesn't really fit. This needs to be its own thing. Let's move it out or treat it differently so they can be really helpful. I've had that happen to multiple people that I've worked with that they're like, oh, I have three books here, I thought I had one. And especially if it's your first time writing a book, it can Be really hard to identify those kinds of things for yourself, because everything may feel essential and the content editor will be able to help you see what is and isn't. And finally, they'll look at your research, any examples you use, whether they're personal to you or pop culture or just general cultural elements, and the look for areas where you can dig deeper. You may feel like you're completely tapped out on something, but you're like, I have said everything I could possibly say about this. And a content editor can be great at coming in and saying, actually, here's something you could think about, or here's a story I'm aware of that might work here, or do you have this kind of story for from your life that you could pull from? So this is a hugely important part of the process. And when I'm talking with our Book Launchers clients, I'll often describe it as the bmf because it is the big thing to get through it challenges you and your thinking. It requires you to dig deep again into your manuscript to make these kinds of revisions, these edits after the fact. It is demanding, but it is also what takes you from a rough draft to something really strong to begin to move through the other rounds of editing that are tightening and polishing and improving.

So I was just going to ask Elissa, what if I got this content edit back? And like, I just don't agree with what the content editor is saying. Like, I just feel they're not getting my My story or my book is.

A really good question. My advice is always to sit with your feelings first. No matter how many times I get an edit back on one of my novels, I have feelings about it. And those feelings can make me want to reject out of hand everything that said, and I am not the only person that feels this way, this is a common response where you're like, no, I don't like it. So that would be my initial advice was to let yourself process, sit with your feelings, but then also to realize that you don't have to agree with everything a content editor says. What I would encourage is that you try to look at the underlying issue that the content editor is trying to address. So for instance, if there's something they're like, maybe you could change the wording this way. That change in wording may not work for you because of something the content editor doesn't know or just because it doesn't fit with your vision. So instead of dismissing it out of hand, I would say try to identify what their concern is. Whether It's a lack of depth or a lack of clarity or something like that. And still respond to the edit just in your own way. Because ultimately we say this time and time again. I know Roy does too. This is your project, so it does need to be your vision and your voice and fit in with your goals. But the content editor, their job is to point out the gaps, the holes, the errors, the crooked lines. And if you don't agree with their solution, then look for a different solution. But in most cases, we expect our clients to agree with and apply. I think it's 80% or more of edits. In most cases, it's over more than that. But there also can be places where you've written something that the editor just didn't get. Humans aren't perfect. They're better than AI, but they're not perfect. And so sometimes they'll ask questions or they'll just miss something. And in those cases, you can check in with us. You could ask someone else for advice. You could even, in some cases, go back to your content editor.

Depending on.

Depending if you're working with us, you can go to your ghostwriter or your writing coach and ask them, hey, I think they misunderstood this, or can you help me sort through why I disagree and what I might be able to do instead? It's not a perfect process. It is a human process. But that's a good point, Roy. I think the emotional part is a big piece of it, especially since most likely you've just spent a really good chunk of time working really hard on writing this book. And it can be difficult to have someone come in and say, okay, a lot of this is good, but all we hear is the now, fix all of these things. So I do think giving yourself space to feel your feelings and then approach it with an open mind and looking for solutions for yourself, and just to.

Add to that as well, it's. It makes complete sense that anyone's initial reaction is to be defensive because you put so much of your time and heart, even if it's a busy business book, maybe it's not a memoir. You're still putting time and heart into this project. And so it. It's completely normal for you to kind of. Kind of get ruffled feathers at first when you see all those red marks, but when you take that step back mentally, and maybe you do set it aside for a period of time before revisiting it, but go at it with the lens of why did the content editor point that out? What. What was their reasoning? Because if they did it? Then again, it's very likely that your readers might have as well. And you don't want your readers to be confused about something that you might have added or to kind of question your authority in the field. You know, those are some of the things that a content editor, as Elizabeth pointed out, they're also going to point out. So why, why did they make that suggestion? Why did they, you know, say that maybe I should add something else here? Cut down on this just a little bit. And it is for a reason. It might not seem like it, but they're actually looking for your best, your manuscript's best interest to do some of those. Some of those pieces. And before we move on to the next section, in case you've got more to add here, I want us to take a quick break and answer some of the questions and also give away another prize. So we are going to do a skill testing question. So feel free to get your fingers ready, whether you're on your phone or keyboard to answer this because our question is going to be severally a skill testing question. I should say more just we're curious to see what experiences you guys have had. So if you have worked with an editor in the past, was there something that you learned about your writing style that your editor pointed out to you or that you saw their suggestions and that was like, oh, I learned something about my writing style now because of that. So if you worked with a beta reader or an editor, what did you learn about your writing style? So we'll pick our favorite and say who it is and put it in as a winner. And while people are putting what they learned in the chat, let's go through some of these questions. Questions. And Elissa, forgive me, I was trying to find if you had put this in your presentation or not, but Tom had asked earlier, the question for me is how to find an editor that we can trust, whether they're professional or not.

Yes. So actually I will say hold tight. That is something I'm going to talk about.

Okay.

Towards the end. Yes.

Okay. I thought, I thought potentially there is a question from Eric that I will save at the end because he's like, this might be a can of worms. And I think it will be so that for the end. Okay. And then Bonnie had asked, I had a sensitivity reader review, a case history I cited in my book. Where does that type of editing fit in the flow of editing?

That is a really good question. I would say probably a little bit later in the process, I would say maybe after fact check if You've gone through content, edited and copy edit and then fact check so that it's as complete as possible and that the way that you're saying things is as complete as possible, because otherwise the sensitivity reader might flag things that you have already were going to fix. Normally when we're talking about sensitivity readers, for those of you who may not be super familiar, we're asking, asking somebody to review a manuscript for potential sensitive topics or presentation of topics. And so if this question, if Bonnie was specifically having them actually look at an outside source she used, then you could do that at any point in the process. But if you're actually having a sensitivity reader read your entire manuscript to assess for these things, to make sure that the language you're using isn't unintentionally harmful or offensive, or that you aren't using outdated terms to talk about something which is really easy to happen. The. The common vernacular shifts rapidly around certain topics. So it can be helpful to have that set of eyes on something that you're writing about. But I would say doing that before your proofread, but a little like part way through editing, maybe 2/3, 3/4 of the way through the whole editing process would be good timing for that. But if it's just having them look at a source to make sure that it's, you know, not an, you know, illegitimate or offensive source in some way, I'm less familiar with doing that. But I would say that could happen at just about any time to help you determine whether you want to use that source or you need to find a new one. It's a good question, though. Sensitivity readers are becoming more and more important.

Perfect. Okay. How do you know? This is actually a question I thought of that people might find useful. How do you know when you should work with an editor who has experience in your field versus using an editor that is completely fresh to that line of work?

Yeah. So that depends a lot on your intended audience. So if your intended audience is the general population, then you're going to be. It's going to be really important to work with a editor who is also part of the general population most of the time. That's true across the board, but it's good to work with someone who can bring a fresh outside perspective on it. What we would suggest is, especially if you're in something like law or certain types of business or the medical field or, you know, something else, or even like therapists and things like that, specific things that your intended audience may be within your own arena, that we would encourage you to find somebody that you trust, a colleague or somebody else in your field that you trust, and have them read the book, not as an editor, but as somebody who's going through to kind of assess it as a peer and as a member of your intended audience and help you see whether you've presented things a little bit off. I have a wonderful client who is writing a book about being admitted to the hospital and what that's like. And one of the things that she did was she asked people in major departments of her hospital that she doesn't work with as closely to read her manuscript to make sure that the way she presented their departments and the way she talked about them fit with their actual jobs and how they do them. Because while she worked with them, she didn't do their job. And she got some helpful feedback for that. And she did that around the content edit, copy, edit, round one phase. But in terms of finding an editor with exactly your expertise, that's not so much needed. But it can be helpful to find someone who knows about your genre, who knows what the reader expectations are for your intended audience. Whether they share your expertise or not, they'll be able to look at what your reader's expecting, expect, and need. So I hope that kind of answers your. The question.

Okay, awesome. Okay. And then I think just one more for something to keep in mind, because I know we've got some people here who are still writing their manuscript. When. When should they start on this editing process? Like, should they start trying to edit while they are writing? Like, oh, should I start going through, you know, I'm taking a break from writing chapter three. Should I go back and start looking for typos and grammatical errors? Like, should they start editing while they're still writing? Or when should they start this editing process?

That's also a really good question. Roy may have some opinions about this as well. It's a little bit more of a writing question, actually, and it has to do with your approach to writing yourself. So. So there are some writers who work really well with writing a chapter, self revising it, moving to the next chapter. And then there are some people who will never move past chapter one if they let themselves start revising, because they'll just find more things to revise and it stops their forward momentum entirely. I am one of those people. So I try to shut down my inner editor and perfectionist by just keeping moving, always forward when I'm writing something and telling myself over and over again, I will be able to go back and fix it. But I Also have writer friends and clients that I've worked with that they will write a chapter or two, go back and revise it, then move forward, and that works for them. What I would say is that neither approach means you don't then need to do a whole big picture. Once the entirety of the rough draft is done, pass that self editing. Because there are certain things you cannot see when you're looking at it piece by piece that you have to be able to kind of go through the thing as a whole so there's not a right or wrong except for your specific process and what works for you. Revising as I go along is wrong for me, but it may not be wrong for somebody else.

Yeah, I'm definitely in the camp of finishing the first draft and trying to move forward completely through the entire thing before I start any sort of edits. I think it's helpful to go back and edit in certain chapters if maybe you realize you forgot to put something in that chapter and you need to go back and add it. But as far as getting bogged down and correcting grammar and sentences and things, that tends to just be procrastination activity that prevents you from finishing. So just know that you can always correct those things. And you should just worry about getting that content out and making sure that you're getting all those pieces in place because later on you'll be able to shift them around and really polish things up and get it to that place.

That's an excellent point. And I liked what you said about going back and like leaving notes for yourself or going ahead and adding something so you don't forget. That's actually a really good point. It's something that I talk to my writers about sometimes is to say, you know, if you know, you need to go back and add an example in chapter one, but you're struggling with forward momentum, keep a running list of things that you want to add and where so that you can have peace of mind that you won't forget. And you know where those pieces go. But you're not stopping yourself from moving forward with the draft because honestly, finishing that initial first draft can be the hardest thing.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And that piece that Roy said about, if you're using this as kind of like a crutch for procrastination, that could kind of, if you're aware that you're doing it for that, be aware so that you don't truly procrastinate finishing your manuscript. Because there are people who have unfinished manuscripts for years and years. So as Eliza just Said getting that first manuscript done, you can always go back. But getting that done is such a huge milestone in this process. It's something to be celebrated. You can always go back. And with all of this, something to keep in mind is years down the road, you can go back and read your manuscript and you would still apply in things you would want to add or change. So the process is, in a sense, never done. But finding that place where you are comfortable and you feel good about what you have in your manuscript, that is something huge. And you can go back and modify and then start to polish it up and make it reader ready. But that's a huge, huge piece of this process. Process, absolutely. And we do have a prize winner before we get to the next section. So again, what it was, was what is something that you learned from working with an editor? And you learned this about your writing style. And Lois had written that. She learned about. She writes the way that she speaks. So she learned that she uses more jargon. So, Lois, you are our prize winner. For the second prize. I will message you about what to do so that you can claim your prize. But yeah, we actually had another person at least put a similar thing on there. Lois's comment was first. But yeah, very, very interesting.

And you know, that kind of. That was. That's an excellent question you asked them too, Angela, because it kind of fits into multiple stages of the editing process. So you can get that kind of feedback from working with a content editor. You can get that kind of feedback working with a copy editor. You can get that kind of feedback from beta readers as well. But we all have ticks when it comes to our writing. We all have phrases that maybe we tend to repeat. I know for me, when I was first starting to write novels, I would use a little bit a lot, and I didn't realize it and now I can like never use it because every time I'm writing I'm like, don't say a little bit, don't do it. But we all have those things. And again, one of the can't see them for ourselves very well. So that's awesome. You're going to learn a lot about yourself as a writer, no matter what, as you go through both the self editing and the editing process. And I think that's part of what is so exciting to me because you will level up yourself as you go through your manuscript. Levels up. But so do you, which I think is awesome.

Okay, I'm done. For questions, we have our prize winner, which Lois, I'm about to message you. So you are good to continue. Elissa.

Excellent. All right, so that's Content Edit, very foundational, very, very important. The next round that we recommend you go through, and that's part of our process, is the copy edit. So the way that we conceptualize this for our book launchers clients is that if the content edit is focusing on what you're saying, making sure that the material is there, the raw content is all present for the reader, the copy edit switches gears and starts focusing on how you're saying things. Just as a word to the wise, copy edits can also sometimes be called line edits. This is one that you'll see in all different ways. We do also have line edits within our book launchers process, but they are different and they take place later in the process when you're in layout. So for clarity and consistency, I will only be calling these edits copy edits. But you may see websites and even other processes that will refer to these as line edits. And they're not wrong, it's just that you're focusing on them line by line. And the copy is the material that's being reviewed so closely. So the copy edit focuses on writing at the sentence level. They want to make sure that the way that you're saying something is the most effective it can be, and it is more rules based. It does start applying grammar and punctuation and mechanics of style to your manuscript. But they're also looking for what can be a little bit more intangible, which is that readability for your target audience. They're trying to make sure that how you say things, not just your voice and tone, which are really important, but just the overall structure of your sentences themselves, are not getting in the way of reader understanding and are actually presenting it in the best way possible on a sentence and paragraph level, rather than the overall big picture structure that the content edit focuses on. Whenever I talk about copy edits, I always think of my favorite professor from undergraduate who taught what we called English major boot camp. It was rough, a lot of people failed, but she would always write on the board clear, concrete, concise and organized. And that was how she wanted all of our arguments, our papers, our presentations to be. And that's what I think of when I think of the copy edit, that they are looking to make sure that the way that you're presenting the information on a sentence, on a writing level and is clear, concrete, concise and organized. And by the end of copy editing, the goal is to make you sound like you've had Eight hours of sleep and two really good cups of coffee or tea. If you're me and are relaxed, confident and authoritative that you sound like your very best self on paper. Within the Book Launchers process, we actually put your book through two rounds of copyedit. And the first round is focused more on that mechanics of style and consistency of tone and voice, and improving the actual writing itself. And then the second pass through has to do with incorporating your edits, edits from the Fact Checker, which we'll talk about in a minute, and then going through and really tightening up that clear, concrete, concise and organized piece with grammar and punctuation and preparing it for the final polish. So this can be done if you're hiring a freelance editor or an independent editor yourself. This can theoretically be done by paying for one round, but you're going to have a better experience if you have this person go through twice. Because there are so many things to look at in Copy edit that you want that kind of layered approach. And that's part of why we do it that way with Book Launchers, because we want to make sure that you've got your foundation from the content edit and then foundational corrections to the writing itself, and then can polish off the top layer in preparation for that final proofread where everything is truly brought to that finest point at the end. So copyedit comes for us before Fact Check. So let's talk a little bit about fact check. So this is something that I wasn't actually super familiar with before I joined Book Launchers. It is a part of our process and it is something that we train editors to do for us, but it is becoming more and more important. Just like we were talking about sensitivity, readers, fact checks are becoming more and more important. And this is something that you can do some of this work yourself, but it can be really helpful to have a professional do this for you. So for us, our fact checkers are professionals and researchers, and their job is to go through an entire manuscript and assess the research, the claims, the data, anything you've stated as fact, and verify it, confirm it, and make sure that it is strong enough to withstand scrutiny. For some books, this step may be less important. So we don't actually insist that every book in our process go through this round of editing. If you're writing something that is very personal to you, like a memoir, you may have less need for checking facts, or if you're writing a business book that is really, truly just focused on your philosophy and expertise without bringing in a lot of outside material or information or data, then you may not need this. But many of our authors are positioning themselves as authorities within their fields with their books that they're writing. So we have found significant value in this extra step in our editing process. So what does a fact checker do? They review the quality of any research that you have already included. And actually going back to, I believe it was Bonnie's question about having a sensitivity activity reader look at a source. A fact checker would also review the quality of a source and make sure that it is a legitimate one and that the citation is correct. If they have concerns about bias or any other kind of illegitimacy of a source that you've cited, they will flag it and provide an alternative. They'll make sure that anything that needs to be verified is verified or verifiable. They'll also make sure that I didn't put this on here, but they'll also make sure that if you state something as a fact, it is a fact and not just an opinion, and that that fact can be backed up. Or if there's something that you're stating as an opinion that actually is a fact, they'll tell you, well, you could probably state this a little bit stronger and back it up. It's not just your opinion, it's. It's a real thing that we can prove. And if research is lacking overall, they'll provide newer replacement sources. And then they'll also tidy all of those research and citation pieces into footnotes and endnotes for you, which can be a lot of work sometimes. So it's great to have a professional come in and do that. They also ask important questions as they go for your work, especially if you are again, positioning yourself as an authority within your field. And they'll ask questions like, who said this? How do they know? What is their expertise related to this claim? And can this claim be corroborated by trustworthy sources? These are things that you should also be asking yourself when you're including outside material into your book. But again, that objectivity can be difficult to find, especially if you don't really have the skill set or experience to know how to evaluate a source. That can be really important. And then another thing to talk about when we talk about fact checks, and part of why they're becoming more and more important like sensitivity readers, is that the worst case scenario with a book, if you forego a fact check, is liability and litigation without care, an author could unwittingly find themselves in breach of someone else's Intellectual property rights, for instance, if you're not super familiar with where the line is when you're borrowing content, failing to acknowledge an existing trademark or copyright, or using someone else's word, work without proper citation or even permission sometimes can have repercussions for an author in their book. And in a more general sense, fact checking is an issue of professional integrity. Many of our authors are thought leaders in the making and any fact checking slip up could jeopardize their reputation and potentially lead to professional embarrassment, which we absolutely want to help you avoid. So even when authors are experts in their subjects, it can be difficult, like I said, to fact check yourself because of confirmation bias, which is, oh, I agree with that. So it must be true and be able to stand sturdily on its own two feet. And that's not necessarily true. So again, having a second set of eyes focused purely on that factual accuracy, it can benefit just about every author, regardless of their expertise. So we strongly encourage this step within our process for those reasons. But we do acknowledge that there may be some projects that this is less applicable for. I would say the majority of our clients do opt for a fact check at this point in time, but it is a point of discussion rather than saying, oh no, you absolutely need this, and here's why.

Yeah, I want to touch on that a little bit if I can. So sometimes a client says, well, I don't, I don't need a fact check. I, I don't have any studies, I don't have any data, things like that. But then we open the manuscript and every single chapter start has a quote from somebody else. And so each one of those quotes we do need to fact check because we want to make sure that it's going to the original person who said it. Oftentimes quotes get re quoted and re quoted again and the person thinks that they have the correct person, but it's not attributed to that original. So if you're using quotes at your chapter starts or sort of anywhere else in the book, we do want to verify those and try to get to that original source.

Yeah, that's actually a really, really excellent point, Roy. Thank you.

Sure. And speaking of original source, Wikipedia is not an original source. So if you're pulling, if you're pulling information from Wikipedia, please try and research it to an original, you know, source yourself or we will definitely try to track it down for you.

That's right. That's actually a good point. A lot of people don't realize that Wikipedia can be edited by literally anyone. So someone can Edit Wikipedia and put false information in there. However, if you are currently citing Wikipedia, fear not. A lot of entries do have a endnotes at the bottom that may take you to a stronger or more direct source for your information. So that can be a good place to start. But generally speaking, yes, the age of the Internet is incredible in the sense that we have more access than ever to information, including great quotes that we want to include in our books. But at the same time, it's a double edged sword because there's a lot that isn't verified on the Internet. And so unless you know how to really chase something down to a primary source or as close to a primary source as possible, then you can easily be led astray by someone who sounds like they know what they're talking about on the Internet or a website that looks great that says the Dalai Lama said this and it may not be true at all. It might have been, you know, Dave next door.

So we have a question posted that is actually right on point with this. What if a quote is credited to more than one source? How do you choose which one is to be credited?

That's a tough one. And that is part of what a fact checker would try to chase down. They would try to find the oldest or most original source for that quote. I've seen them come back with like newspapers from like 18, 1947, where they're like, this was printed originally back then by this guy who was writing about the railroad. That has happened. That would be their first stop. But otherwise sometimes we'll just say something like, commonly attributed to this person but not verifiable. And so we will mark that and you can often still use that quote, but we just want to make sure that you're presenting it as accurately as possible possible, either to the correct person or acknowledging that it's been lost to time. Who actually said this but that A lot of people say it was Albert Einstein or something like that. It's a good question. Anything else, Angela, before?

Nope. We've got some questions coming in, but they're either things you're going to touch on later or can be saved for the end. So you're good.

Okay, good deal. All right, so like I said before, in our process, after the fact check, we actually send our clients manuscripts back for a second round of copy edits. And these copy edits for the second time, they're actually going to help incorporate any changes that were necessary from that fact check. So sometimes they'll recommend a change in wording, for instance, to make sure that it's clear something is an opinion, or clear that something is a fact, or to position it with proper context to set you up for, you know, lack of liability and things like that. And the second round of copy edits allows that copy editor to go through and smooth any rough edges there and make sure that everything remains a cohesive whole in terms of voice and tone and things like that. They'll also incorporate any edits or changes from your first round of copy edits to also do the same thing, make sure that it is as ready as possible for that final polishing step, which that's my lovely transition to talking about the proofread, which in our normal editing process, this is our last round. Like I said, we do have some additional line edits that take place during the layout process. But even if you're working independently, like you're not a Book Launcher's client and you're going through this process, you may want to do additional editing during the layout process. And I can talk a little bit about that at the end if anyone has questions about how to do that and the timing of that. But most people, when they're hiring their own editors, they will be sticking to these types of edits, content edits, copy edits, proofreads. So that's what I'm focusing on now. But if you have specific questions about how to do additional editing during layout or late, late in the process, I'm happy to talk about that as well. So in our editing process, the content editor is one person, the copy editor is a second person, the fact checker is a third person, and then the proofreader is a fourth editor that goes through your book. So they are coming in with a completely fresh set of eyes, and they are looking specifically for errors. They are no longer looking to improve your writing or to smooth out a rough sentence. That's what the copy editor was doing. They honestly don't care if a sentence reads kind of rough. They are more focused on whether it is grammatically correct or not. And those can be two different things. Something can read smoothly and be grammatically incorrect and read rough and be grammatically correct. And so we have two different editors focusing on two different aspects because we want your book to read smoothly and be correct. And so the proofreader is focusing on errors. So they are looking at catching anything that might have slipped through on an objective level. They are looking for mistakes, for inconsistencies. They are looking to check for any spelling or grammar of punctuation errors that could have slipped through through. So by the time the copy editor has gone through the second time, they are also getting very close to your manuscript, and they are also getting very familiar with your writing. And so this being a different person applies a another layer of that objectivity that we need to be able to really see what's on the page. Because editing itself, writing too. But editing is an exercise in how good the brain's autocorrect can be. And we do tend to see what we expect to see. And editors have trained their brains to see what is actually there versus what they might expect based on the sentence before or the words before. But still things can be missed. So the proofreader is the highest level of that, where they are genuinely just looking at each individual word and making sure that it's correct. They'll also make sure that headings are correctly applied. That for our process, they're making sure that things are set up and good to go for entering the layout process. So they'll make sure that headings are formatted, subheadings are formatted, that the tabs are in the right places, and that the citations and footnotes are all correctly formatted for the next designer to start working on it. They'll also make sure that there are no missing citations that nothing happened between fact check and them. To create an error, they'll check for extra spaces. We still have some clients who were taught to double space after a period. It's not being taught anymore, but it was taught for such a long time that there are a lot of people who still have the habit of a double space after a period. And so that's something that a proofreader will make sure is eliminated before it moves forward to layout. They'll also check for style consistency, like if you have bulleted lists or numbered lists, or if you have offset certain things with, like tabbing over or centering, or if you have bolding or italics, they're looking to make sure all of those pieces are visually consistent and correct. They'll check for any other formatting issues that might have crept in as well. But one of the things that I often talk about with my clients when I'm talking about the proofread is about their application of the Chicago Chicago Manual of Style. So if you haven't been in the publishing industry very long, or if you came from any academic background that isn't like, history, you probably didn't use Chicago coming up through school. You probably used MLA or apa, most likely. But the Chicago Manual of Style is a style guide, and it Is, like I said earlier, the publishing industry standard. And basically what it tells us is how things should look on the page. It gives us indication about rules for grammar and punctuation, but also how citations should be handled and how, like, if you have a really specific question about how to give someone proper credit, not in a citation, but in the wording of the book itself. Chicago has an opinion about that. But there are also other style guides as well. Like I mentioned earlier, the Blue Book or APA or ama. And a proofreader's job is to make sure that it has been applied consistently. So across all of the editors, we also, as part of our process, our editors devise a unique style guide specific to your book. So if you have unique spellings of something, or if you always use bolding to offset keywords, or if you really like it, when all words are speaking spelled out, regardless of whether they're under 10 or over 10, which is a rule within Chicago, all of those things are put on your customized style guide as well. And so by the time it gets to the proofreader, they have notations from every editor that has worked on your book that tells them how things should be in your manuscript. And then they use that alongside Chicago or whatever other style guide you need to make sure that everything is as you intended within your manuscript. It's a very important role. It requires a lot of detail oriented focus, but they're doing a lot more again than just catching a stray comma, although that is part of what they do. This is where we talk about professional polish. We believe that this step can truly be make or break, and it can be the difference between a five star review and a one star review review. Because a lot of people are actually really harsh when they read a book about the things that a proofreader is looking at specifically, they also are going to protect you from potential inconsistencies, even in the application of, say, Chicago Manual of Style. So the example that I often give is that Chicago specifically has a few flexible rules, especially to do with commas. So a lot of us have been taught that if you end a sentence in the word to, for instance, like Dave went to the park too, that we were taught you always have to have a comma before too. But Chicago recognizes that that can mean you have a lot of commas in one sentence, that it can lead to, to a lot. And so that would be called closed punctuation. And they realize that it can be distracting and not real pleasant to the reader. So they say you can opt to Leave that comma off. We would call that open punctuation, which means you're choosing to go with the rule more for smooth reading rather than technical correctness. Chicago allows for that. But you don't want to switch back and forth between the two within your manuscript. You don't want to sometimes have a comma before too, and other times not, because even if it's intentional, it looks accidental or incidental. And so it will read like a mistake very subtly to your readers. And we want to avoid that. We want to avoid anything that can give that little shadow of doubt or concern to someone who's reading your manuscript. So part of what a proofreader does is make sure that whatever rule was chosen or whatever application was chosen is done consistently so that it looks as professional and intentional as possible every aspect of your manuscript. So this one is huge, hugely important. But I hope you can see by how we've gone through these different stages that if you tried to do a proofread before the content edit, when all of the structure is there and all of the material is as it should be, or before a copy edit, when the writing has been strengthened and adjusted and corrected, or before the fact check, where they make sure that you're saying things the way that you should and that your support is all where it should be and that everything is formatted correctly. If you do this one too soon, you're not going to get this value out of it, because what you're needing is that everything is as correct as possible. And then the proofreader is going to come in and make it easier, even better, polish it even more. So this is a vastly important part of editing, but it is not the only part, and it is it's most powerful and effective when the other rounds of editing have been performed to a high level as well.

So, speaking of the timing, Elissa Paula had asked in the chat, is the pro, and I know you and I know that. So let's go into the why of her question. Is the proofread to be done before or after a full layout? And I am adding why? Why do we do it when we do it?

Yeah, so we do it first, partially because a lot of what they are looking at is formatting. So they are making sure, again, like those headings and subheadings are all consistent and where they are before they're flowed into a layout that allows the designer to make decisions based on what's already been decided. And that makes a huge difference. It also is the most flexible time. So once your project goes into layout, it is locked in. And not to go too technical here, but the programs that are used to layout professional interiors, they are subject to what's called flow, which means if you change something on one page, it impacts every page after it until a specific breaking point. And so we want to minimize, as much as possible, any changes that might need to be made to the layout once it has been done. So we want to catch everything we possibly can at proofread and have it be as perfect as possible before it gets there to minimize what needs to be changed during layout. And I think now is probably a good time to talk about what editing we do actually do during our layout process. So you can do as much as you possibly can all the way through editing, and there's still the possibility that certain things will slip through. So once our authors are in layout and they've got their first, their full layout, the entire thing, they'll be sent to them in a PDF. And this PDF is going to look very different from the Word document that they've been working on to this point. And sometimes that visual difference of working, of reading through your book in a way that doesn't look exactly the same as it did before will reveal mistakes to you that were previously hidden. The example that I use most commonly is that I have now at this point, had two different clients who realized that their wedding date was wrong in the layout process. They had read through their book, I mean, so many times. But I tell them, this is something our editors can't catch for you because we don't know when you got married. This is something you have to catch. But something about seeing it differently in this professional layout allows them to see things they didn't see before. And they're like, oh, my goodness, my wife's birthday is this. Or we were married on this day day. I've even had someone do it who I specifically warned about it. He still thought it was correct until he got to layout. So layout review is very important. What we recommend is that you go through very closely one more time for that reason, to catch things that only you can catch. And also because our layout designers are not writers and editors, and there are certain things that they have to put in manually that they have to enter by hand. And so there's always the possibility that a couple of things could get. Could miss a letter or could change the spelling slightly. So we always encourage you to go back through. If you are a Platinum plus or VIP client, we also send it to another round of proofreading to Have a professional look at that layout for you and make sure that those errors weren't introduced. But we're still going to ask you to go through yourself again to catch those things that no one can catch for you. And that having it in that different visual space makes a big difference. So we actually have you go through twice, regardless of your membership level. We have you go through twice during the layout process to just make sure that nothing else slipped through. We're confident in it from a technical editing perspective, but we're going to review that layout to make sure no errors were introduced. And we're asking you to go through to make sure nothing slipped through that you were just so sure was right, but would ruin relationships if you got it wrong after the fact. So the initial proofread happens first because we want it to be as set and correct and polished as possible so that the changes that need to be made are minor. So like a wedding date, for instance, if we're changing a couple of numbers, that's not going to reflow the entire recipe rest of the manuscript. But if a heading is wrong, that can create issues. If citations need to be added or changed, that can create flow issues. So we want to make sure that's as correct as possible before the design process, just to minimize delays and things like that. That's an excellent question.

So the layout process is not when you want to be going back through and taking out like big chunks of content or adding them.

That is correct. We allow for that. If something happens, like, for instance, we've had people who have been working on books that bring in the law, for instance, and some big law or ruling will happen when they're late in their process that they absolutely have to include, or their book is already horrifically outdated before it ever hits shelves. But in those cases, it does create delays. So we would have to move the launch date to allow for additional time and layout to accommodate those major changes and additions. So we call those exit gates. It's not that you can't do it, but that there will be consequences to it. So we want to avoid it as much as possible so that you stay on your on track for your intended publication date.

I think that's good. Again, I've got questions, but we're going to save them for the end. So you're good.

All right. So this next one is kind of a big one. And I think it is the one where people can feel the most lost is how to find trustworthy editors and what to expect from that process. And some of you may have specific questions about this, and I admit that what I have to say here is relatively general. So do feel free to ask more specific questions if you have them. When it comes to where to find trustee editors, the answer is it depends for certain genres. This is especially true for fiction, but you can also apply it to nonfiction. You can find good editors in Facebook groups, on YouTube channels, and in other social media. So I know people who have found their editors that they love by finding out who their favorite YouTube author is uses as their editor or their proofreader or whatever. And they hire that person because they know their favorite YouTuber uses them and their books are great and they want that quality, so they've found them that way. You can find them in Facebook groups sometimes if you're in writing groups or other groups related to your specific topic or field. If there are other writers there who work with great editors, you can get a recommendation that way. It can be really beneficial to know someone who has worked with an editor before. It's not always possible, but word of mouth is a bread and butter kind of thing for freelance editors. So they often encourage their clients to tell their friends that need it, or colleagues or things like that. And you can find it on other social media as well. But YouTube is the big one for this. If there are authors in your field who have YouTube channels, sometimes they, they, they talk about or give access to their editors. You can also find it sometimes by looking at your favorite books, especially by independently published people. So there can be a layer of hubscation, for lack of a better word. With traditional publishing, a lot of times the editors that they work with are not named by the author or within the book itself. So that can be kind of a dead end. You can usually find who their acquisitions editor is with their publishing house, but that is not the same as the type of editor you'd be working with for this. And you also can sometimes find their literary agent. But that's also not what you need here. So you're going to want to focus on people who are independently published because they most likely hired their own editors or worked with a couple company that provided an editor for them that might be a lead for you. Other places that you can look, Fiverr is one of them. This one is definitely hit or miss and it does come with a warning label that anybody can set up shop on. Fiverr. This kind of applies to upwork as well, that you will often find editors who offer to edit for you for very little. And what you'll find is that they may not actually be able to edit for for you. They may not. They may do what they call editing, but they may just run it through Grammarly or through prowritingaid. And you may not actually be getting that human editing that you think that you're paying for. So I would be careful, very careful of reviews. I would make sure that they had a lot of clients already through fiverr upwork before landing on someone. And I'm going to talk about it in just a minute more. But always get a sample edit. Always, always, always when working with a new editor. And I'll talk about that a little bit more in a minute. Places that have a little bit more quality control that I feel more confident recommending to you is Reedsy is one of them. They do require that you prove yourself more than any of these other sites do, that you have qualifications and expertise. So that's kind of a step up. You can feel a little bit safer hiring someone through Reedsy with more peace of mind. And then there are other places that you can look for people who have been vetted. So I have on here the Editorial Freelancers association, the Society for Editing. They have an editors for hire area that you could look through. New York Book editors is another one. And I believe ally the alliance of independently published authors. They also, I believe, have editors that they recommend that have been vetted by them that you could look through. The biggest thing is that you want to hire someone that you can put them in context in some way. You know, a book that they've worked on, or an author that they've worked with, or they have some kind of track record that you can see. When I was in, when I was working as a freelance editor, I would always offer access to my previous clients who had agreed to that. So when a new client come on, I said, hey, you know, and of course, if you'd like to speak with any of my previous clients about their experiences with me, here's how you can do that. Because I had nothing to hide and was very happy to, you know, give them that kind of information. And a lot of other editors may do something similar. So keep that in mind. And it's not a bad thing to ask either. It's like, you know, is there a previous client who might be, you know, willing to talk to me so I can ask them some questions about, you know, what the process looked like as the writer in this relationship that's not offensive or inappropriate to do that. And then if an editor really balks at that, like, seems really uncomfortable that would be a red flag for me. If they say, well, I've primarily worked with authors, you know, under strict NDAs, non disclosure agreements or things like that. That's not a red flag. I did a lot of that for a stretch of time and there I wouldn't have been able to share any of those author names or access because I was, I had signed away my legal right to do so. So that's not as much of a red flag. But if they're, they don't say that and they're just like no, then you also probably should say no. Keep that in mind. So what to expect? As a general rule of thumb, you get what you pay for. If you go through upwork or fiverr and you go with the person who said, hey, it's $5 for your content edit, you are going to get $5 worth of quality, most likely. I don't want to sound elitist here. I want to be careful. There are plenty of good editors who are just starting out, who are less experienced but may do a really good job, and they are selling less or charging less for their services. But just keep in mind, if you're, especially if you're wanting a more experienced editor, you are going to pay more for a more experienced editor. And that in general, the cheapest option is not going to set you up for success. You're not going to be getting what you're, what you're looking for. And that's a hard reality. And in many cases you may need to set very clear expectations, expectations for what you're wanting from an edit. So for instance, I talked about how there are different names for these different types of edits, right? Like you may have a content edit or a developmental editor, a substantive edit, or you may have a copy edit or a line edit. And so it's important to establish up front when you're working with an editor for the first time that you're on the same page in terms of how that edit is defined and what you can expect expect from them. For instance, our developmental or content editors, their feedback to you comes as like a letter at the beginning with an overview of what they've seen. And then there'll be changes they've made to the manuscript itself with track changes turned on. And there'll be comments out to the side with suggestions and questions and just like their own reader responses like, hey, this is funny or I really enjoyed this, this. But there may be other developmental editors, and this is more common on the fiction side, who will say, well, here's your edit letter here is what I see. And they haven't actually made any changes to the manuscript itself. They've just kind of done what I would consider a manuscript analysis rather than a content edit. So you just want to talk up front before hiring someone and having set those clear expectations and make sure that what they do is what you're looking for for. Because there isn't any like real consistency across the freelance editing world in terms of the terms that are used or the labels that are applied. So you're looking to make sure that they have the skills that you're looking for, the expertise that you're looking for, and that you're on the same page. In terms of what a copy edit is versus a proofread. This is honestly, to me, the most daunting part is the vetting of a new editor. Finding and vetting it can be difficult. It can be stressful. I knew that when I worked with new clients that they found it stressful. And I tried to make it as easy as possible. But it's still. It feels like a very high stakes decision. So it's okay if it feels that way to you as well. We're very careful with our vetting of our own editors that we work with. And we do go through a set process to establish that, you know, our definitions are their definitions, that their skill sets are what we require, and that they're able to edit to the standard that we expect for our authors. So if you're doing this independently on your own, it can be kind of daunting. So just realize that. Ask those questions, set those clear expectations, and always, always, always get a sample edit. This is especially important with copy editing and proofreading because you want to make sure that the kind of edits they're making are what you're looking for. You want to be sure that they aren't. You're not asking for a copy edit and all they're doing is changing commas. Or you want to make sure that you're asking for a proofread and they're actually like rewriting whole sections on your behalf. You want to make sure that what they actually do on the page also lines up with the conversation that you've had about expectations and definitions. We actually have this built into our process as well. When you start copyedit, you actually will get a sample edit provided by our editors who. So that you can get a feel for their approach. And if there's anything that you want them to change in the way that they're approaching it you have the opportunity to do that after the sample rather than after the entire, you know, 250, 300 page manuscript has been edited.

Can we pause there for a quick second?

Yeah, absolutely.

How to work with an editor to establish your author voice.

Yeah, so that's a conversation piece for sure. I. There was someone that I worked with early on in my editing career who felt like this one phrase they were using over and over again was their voice. And we had to sit down and have a separate conversation that was about, okay, what is the voice you're going for? Let me help you. Because it isn't just repeating this phrase that doesn't. That doesn't establish voice. That just looks like repetition. And we talked through like, okay, they're actually wanting to sound conversational, and they're wanting to incorporate some more casual turns of phrase. And so by getting on the same page that way, we were able to move forward with our editors. What we'll always ask is that if there's specific quirks to your voice or to your expectations. So, like, sometimes we have authors for whom English is their second language, and we want to preserve the way that they speak as much as we can, keep their voice the same, while also correcting actual errors so that the manuscript itself is still really clean and polished. But we don't want to edit out the unique sentence structures and turns of phrase that are their voice. So we work really hard to protect that with our own editors. But if you are working with a new one, that is definitely a conversation to have as well. To say, hey, you may see that I, like, lapse into these kind of, you know, maybe you insert some, you know, some Cajun speak in there if you're from Louisiana, and it's some turns of phrase that they really might not recognize, or, you know, maybe you want to toss in a Lord willing and the creek don't rise. If you're from Mississippi like I am, and you need to establish early that, like, you want to keep those things, but would you please make sure they work and that they're doing what I want them to do. And then, of course, if you get your edits back and you feel like they're erasing key things that make you you, and that they're changing your sentences to a way that doesn't sound like you reject those changes because you're writing a book that only you can write in the voice that only you have. And protecting your voice is really important. So establish it early and then check for it as you go through. Don't just blindly accept everything. It's your due diligence to make sure that it continues to sound like you as you go through. It's a good question though. The other thing that's important when you're trying to vet an editor that you're going to work with is that you want to find editors who know your genre and are familiar with professional standards. So this kind of goes back to what the question that I answered earlier about whether they need to be experts in your field or just know your genre and your audience. And I personally believe the latter is the most important because they're going to know what readers actually expect. You are responsible for your content being correct, and that's where you may benefit from having someone read for you who is within your field to help double check you that way. But an editor's job is more to make sure that it's being presented professionally in a way that is what your reader will expect. And I note here, this isn't always about educational backgrounds. You know, I talked earlier about I have, you know, a master's degree in English. And so I stepped into editing really comfortably because I had years of training. But this is not required. There are plenty of great editors who are completely self, self taught or independently trained. There are more and more programs out there that are churning out great editors who just needed to, you know, refine their knowledge and now they really know their stuff and are completely capable of being up to professional standards. And there are plenty of people who have master's degrees who are awful editors that I would never, never recommend you hire because they don't actually have the specific skills that you need or the knowledge of the publishing industry that's required. So be more focused in your questions about, you know, their understanding of your genre and their familiarity with the publishing industry and professional standards and what you're looking for. It's more important than education. There can be licensing and programs they can have gone through that would encourage my, that would increase my confidence in them. But it isn't so much about having completed certain degrees or anything like that. And again, one more time for the people in the back. If you go cheap, you get cheap. Unless you are very, very, very lucky and you find somebody who just honestly doesn't know how much to charge or they are doing it because they love it and don't need to charge professional level fees for it. But those circumstances are, I mean, like moonshot. So like I would. If you go cheap, you get cheap. So budget accordingly because if you want really strong editing you're going to have to, to pay, you know, professional prices for it. And then we're going to talk about what that looks like in a minute. Let's look. All right, Other important things to know. So let's talk about what does that look like when I say how much is it going to cost? And I say it's going to be expensive, what do I mean? So these numbers are actually pulled from Reedsy, which is one of the freelance sites that I mentioned to you, where they do verify the skills and expertise of their editors more than some of the other sites do. And so these are based on professional freelancers who are actively working in this field. So this would be considered good averages of what to expect so that you have a frame of reference for knowing if something is cheap, because what is cheap? Right. If you don't know what to expect, you have no idea whether something is cheap or expensive. So let's, let's look at that a little bit. So for content editing, for all of these rounds of editing, you will most likely find editors who are charging per word rather than per page. Some will charge per page, but because that can vary greatly, they'll often say, you know, a standard 250 words per page or something like that. But most of the time you're going to see them their rates listed as per word. So for content editing, it is a range. Well, all of these are because there is some variance in X expertise, but also in how heavy a lift your individual edit is. So I'll talk about that a little bit when we talk about timing. But for content editing, you can expect to pay about.022 cents, 2.036 per word. So that's like two point. I'm bad at math, don't listen to me. But anyway, that's it. That's your range and it comes out to about 1100-1800 for a 50k word manuscript. So if your manuscript is shorter, it will cost you less automatically, but if it's longer, you're going to pay more and more and more. For copy editing goes up to about two and a half cents per word, give or take, and it comes out to about 900 to 1250 for a 50k word manuscript. And then for proofreading it is, you know, a little over a cent per word, but doesn't usually go all the way up to 2 cents, but you may see that sometimes and it'll come out to about 650 to $800 for a 50k word manuscript. So where are you going to fall. As far as this financial range goes, some people will have a set number that they will tell you, but a lot of individual editors will also present a range to you. And the reason for that is that if your manuscript, when it comes to proofread is really, really clean and requires less time and effort from them, then they will likely charge you a lower rate than they would. If you present them a manuscript that honestly really needed more copy editing and it's have a really heavy lift for them and they're having to put in extra time and extra work, they're going to charge you more. So that's what I was talking about earlier when I said that if you go through that self editing, that revising process, and you really put a lot of effort into it, that you can save yourself time and money later. This is what I'm talking about, that you will find that you will require, you pay less and it'll take less time if you are presenting a cleaner, stronger manuscript from the beginning for each round. And then in terms of how long it will take, this is a difficult one. I kind of went back and forth on even putting timing on here for this because it does vary greatly in the freelance or independent editing world because a lot of it has to do with their own availability and bandwidth and cloud client load. So. But roughly speaking, a content edit will likely take one to three months if you're hiring a freelance editor. If they're really not busy at all, they may go much faster. But you can interpret that how you will. Why aren't they busy if it's a copy editor? Two to six weeks roughly. But it also depends on how long your manuscript is as well, right? So if you have 175 word manuscript, you can double or triple most of these times that I'm talking about here. And then for proofreading, I would say probably one to three weeks, again, depending on the shape of your manuscript and how, how busy they are and how long it is. All of those things factor in for us. Our content editing takes two to three weeks, our copy editing takes two to three weeks, and our proofreading takes one to two weeks. So we try to be very efficient. We only work with editors who not only have availability and bandwidth, but who also have proven their ability to perform very highly and very efficient turnaround times. So these are more averages. They could definitely extend much, much longer on the outside. But even within our own system, if you have a really, really, really long manuscript, our turnaround times will also double and triple because you can't do it that fast. It's too much. Your editors need time to process and work on it fresh as well. So that is just to give you kind of a general idea of what to expect in terms of financial and time investment. Outside of our process, obviously within our process, the cost is included in your membership. And then we have our own set timing for how long things take. And so then just as a reminder, because part of what I said I was going to talk about is the timing of things. So just as a reminder, this is the order that I would recommend if you're looking to do this on your own. But you self edit and revise first, then you go through content or developmental editing, then you go through copy editing. If you want to hire a fact checker, I didn't list that on the previous page because this is a harder thing to hire a freelancer for. As I was preparing for this, I realized that this is something that we've built into our system. But it's not as easy to just go on upwork and hire a fact checker. So you may end up needing to send skip that stage or hope to find a copy editor who also has those skills to be able to help you with that. And then lastly, you save that proofread for the very end after you've gone through every other round of editing. And that brings us to the end for me. Do you have questions?

Oh, we definitely have questions. Don't don't you worry. But first, before we get to questions, take a second and think back about all of this info that Elissa has provided us and put your favorite takeaway or something that you have learned from today's presentation in the chat. And we are going to choose our favorite one for a prize. So what is your favorite takeaway from today? Or what is the best thing that you have learned? So, and we actually may not have time for all the questions, so I apologize if we don't get to all of them. We will try. So let me go back. While people are putting in their favorite takeaway, Eric had asked, can a skilled editor do both fiction and nonfiction?

Yes, definitely. But it's not so much that they are more skilled, it's that they have two independent skill sets. So when I was an editor, I definitely did novels as well as nonfiction books. I enjoy both very much. But they are two different skill sets. And you are looking for different things in a fiction novel than you are in a nonfiction novel. So it's not a concern if an editor says, hey, I do both Just again, have that conversation to make sure that their fiction or nonfiction skill set is what, what you're looking for.

Perfect. Now this is something. Liz actually messaged me that she had to go, but I thought this would be interesting to touch on anyway. How much market analysis do you recommend before content editing? She said it seems like marketing should be considered at the ground level. And she said, you know, that's something that Book Launchers does well. But what to go back, how much market analysis do you recommend before content editing?

You know, I think it really does depend on what you're doing, like what the topic of your book is. But I think it, it can't hurt. You definitely want to do it around content editing. You may even want to incorporate it into that content edit revision step for yourself. There are some books for which market analysis is really, really important to understand exactly where and how you're going to position yourself. And then there are others like memoirs, where it's, it's less important. You are telling the story that you have to tell. And we will figure out angling and things like that for marketing at a later time. But market analysis, I would say incorporating it around the content edit stage is good. You don't want to do it too early because you need a completed manuscript to have a good idea. But also you don't want to falsely influence your content by trying to necessarily feel fit into something specific. Unless you are actually actively trying to participate in one specific conversation in your market and then you want to do it earlier. So it kind of just, it really does. Six of one, half dozen of another, but definitely around Content Edit would be a good time to be looking in our process. That's when we do it perfect.

Now this is a question that we didn't come up with yet or that we didn't voice yet, but what system do you recommend to work in for a manuscript like Google Docs? Word? What is.

That's a fun question. Yeah, so Word is great. It's especially great if you're working with editors. So when you're at the point where you're needing to send documents back and forth, Word is excellent for this. In our system we use Word exclusively with our editors. And part of that is because we moving between multiple programs like Pages or Google Docs can create issues down the line when it's actually time to go to layout. And that's more technical stuff. But just it's a great Word is great. It can be awkward for really large projects during the drafting phase, however. So a lot of people Love to draft in Google Docs. A lot of people love to draft in Scrivener, which is a paid program. It's one I've used myself. It has great resources for managing your research and for breaking things down chapter by chapter. And I currently use a program called Dabble or Dabble Writer, which I love partially because it has dark mode. It's amazing, but it also allows you to kind of break things down chapter by chapter and move pieces around really easily. So during the drafting phase, I find it super helpful. But yeah, those are some of the big ones. Scrivener, Dabble, Word, Google Docs. Some people are starting to use other ones that are new on the market, but really it's what's comfortable for you. But when you get to that editing phase, I would recommend switching to Word.

Yeah, and we here at Book Launchers exclusively use Word with our authors. And there are a couple reasons for that. Again, the most important thing is being able to do the work. So if Word, you know, at certain phases of your process just isn't working for you, you know, try something different. But for us, we found that that works best because one, it does help with draft confusion, which that can still happen, but being able to decipher what's the most up to date version of your draft is absolutely huge. You don't want to go back and edit a previous version of your draft and then realize that that was not the most up to date and you've added content or whatever it is, because that can be a nightmare. Also. It can, you know, you would really want to have, if you do work on a shared platform like Google Docs, where you could be in there yourself and your editor be in there editing. It can be a little confusing if you're going back and adding things in there while the editor is currently working. So I would recommend, you know, having a clear line of either, if you are doing that, either having sections that they are solely focusing on and you are not looking at those sections or fully releasing that document to them to edit. Because again, same thing, you don't want there to be confusion and for them to have edited a section when you went back and you changed something in that section. So any thoughts on that, Roy, or.

Yeah, no, I think, I think you're exactly correct. We keep a copy of every version of your book as you go through. But yeah, for draft confusion, like I said, Word is great. It also makes sure if you're not going back and forth between multiple programs and make sure that you don't lose any edits or changes, and that if something happens and that file becomes corrupted or things like that, we have an immediate version to go back to, which is great. But yeah, I was thinking more like in the drafting process, as you're preparing for editing, that these other programs can be really nice, just depending on your own personal workflow.

Okay, great. We do have some more questions. So, Olivera, I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Had asked. What about a plagiarism check?

Yeah, so the fact check does a lot of that, but we also have our content editors and our copy editors are also helping with that. The first round of defense for us is content edit. They will absolutely be checking to verify that the work is yours. And different content editors go about that in different ways. But plagiarism is a big, scary thing, and we want to make sure that both intentional and unintentional plagiarism is protected against. So I definitely, if you are concerned about plagiarism within your own manuscript, that if you're working with an independent content editor or copy editor, I would let them know that you're concerned about whether you have presented your borrowed information correctly. And then just as a rule of thumb for you, just make sure you aren't just copying pasting things from other sources with. Without giving proper credit or citation, because that won't get you in trouble because that is plagiarism. Awesome.

Thank you. And we do actually have our prize winner, which I will go ahead and announce because I'm not sure we're going to get to all the questions we're going to try, guys. But the favorite takeaway, our favorite was from Aubrey Hudson and yours was. I appreciate the order of operations in the editing process. I think clarifying the editing steps and to not skip was the most helpful of all. So, Aubrey, I will message you directly in a minute with instructions to claim your prize. So thank you. Thank you. And we have just a couple more minutes, so trying. Guys. Still got lots of questions coming in, which I had a feeling would happen. Okay, let's see. So Cindy had asked, once this process is done, can the final product be used in more than one format? Meaning like hardcover, softcover, digital?

Yes, absolutely. It is the same manuscript. There are differences in the layout itself in terms of, like, the technical specifications, but as far as the edited manuscript itself, yes, you can use the same version for all of those and you should. They should be the same.

And excuse me, that actually goes perfectly with Aubrey's question that she had posted saying that she used a fully formatted template from Book designers in Word. Does this make the transition to export to a PDF better or unnecessary?

It can be helpful, absolutely. Our designers actually work in Adobe InDesign for the interiors. There are other programs that can help, like Vellum is a great one that you can purchase that works for it if you're doing it yourself. But yes, there are plenty of people who format things in Word and then export and yeah, so following a template to make sure your headings and subheadings and all of that stuff is correct will make it export more cleanly for sure. Perfect.

Okay, awesome. And I'm just scrolling back, I'm trying.

To be Turbo, guys.

I know, I know, me too. I know. And there are some that I, I'm like, oh, no. Okay, so let's see. There was one. Just very briefly, because this was the comment about like, oh, opening a can of worms. So just very briefly, Roy, any of the three of us, what about chat GPT slash, which I haven't heard of this one. OpenAI. So this was going back to the beginning when you were talking about using AI and just different systems, like AI systems to work in your manuscript for you. What are your thoughts on that? And this is still very new. So what we're saying right now, we're still learning about this?

Absolutely. I think this is a conversation that will be ongoing for a little while and I don't know enough about these programs or how the material is generated to speak on it from like a legal or philosophical perspective, but from a practical perspective. This has come up in my writing group just in the last couple of weeks and the general consensus is it can be really interesting for generating ideas or writing prompts or really, really rough material to work from. But you are not going to use one of those things and then hop straight into professional editing. No, it will require a great deal of reworking and rewriting if you choose to go that route. And again, you're going to run into the hole. You're going to have to write in your voice and your intended tone and all of those kinds of things because the, the AI is, is vastly, vastly imperfect when it comes to those human elements of something. But the general consensus, consensus in my group was that it's interesting for writing prompts or if you're struggling with an idea for something to feed that into it and see what comes out back. It may inspire something. But I don't know anyone who has, has used it to generate true long form writing with any success at this point. But it is all very, very new, of course.

Perfect. Thank you. And that brings us right to the top of the hour. So we are going to wrap up momentarily. Guys, thank you so, so much for joining us on this Saturday afternoon. And I just want to say thank you so much for all the interaction in the chat. There were some really great ideas, push back and forth, forth, some comments, questions. Like, this was just very interactive, guys. So I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Thank you, Roy and Elissa, for taking time out of your Saturdays to be here. Roy, you were very helpful with helping you the chat. And Elissa, your presentation was just fabulous. So thank you so much, you guys. We will be having another deep dive this upcoming month. I don't have the calendar pulled up in front of me right now, but if you are subscribed to our newsletter, which is because here you are, then you will be getting another invite for our deep dives in the future. So, Roy, Elissa, any last words before we head off for the weekend?

No, just thank you guys so much for coming. I could definitely talk about editing for another couple of hours. So thank you all for being here and, you know, understand that this is an emotional process. I know. I see a couple of things in the chat to that effect and it absolutely, absolutely, absolutely is. And it should be. If you are not emotionally invested in what you're working on, readers are going to be able to tell. So it's. It's painful sometimes, but that emotional investment, that care, will make a difference on the reader side. So be encouraged.

Absolutely. And it can be fun. You're polishing up your work. It's great. So you're going to end up with something that you can be proud of and that you can show off to the world and you go from there. But thank you everyone for joining. It was wonderful seeing all your faces.

Yeah, it's so great seeing you guys. And editing can be a little painful, but just as Roy just said, it's helping make something that you can be proud of that can be an extension of your business or your life story, whatever it is, you want to be proud of it and be able to show it off to anyone. So while this is kind of a painful part of the process, it's so necessary and in the end, truly helpful for your book. So thank you all. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your weekend and we will see you again soon. Bye, everyone. Thanks for coming.