How Entrepreneurs Should Build and Manage Effective Teams With Mads Singers

All right, and welcome back to the show. This is Brad Costanzo, and today we're going to talk about a topic that I have not actually covered a lot in the history, the five year history of this podcast, but it is one that I have been interested in. I have been under. I've been under skilled in this area and is an area that I have been driving to get better at as I grow in my career as an entrepreneur, an investor, and a business owner. And this is really the concept of team building, managing and building out the resources in order to accomplish the things that we as entrepreneurs want to accomplish. And that's why I invited Mads Singers onto the podcast today. He has been been a management coach, entrepreneur, he's built businesses, he teaches other people how to build effective management teams. And you know, there comes a time in everybody's life who's an entrepreneur, they realize oftentimes they start off by themselves, they're self employed, they're freelancing, they're just trying to do it all themselves. Maybe they've, you know, doing this because of a limited budget, but there comes a time when if they really want to get their business idea to become a reality, they need the help of others. And the help of others comes in the form of a lot of different things, from outsourcing to virtual assistants, to building full blown employees, and eventually and ideally to building a culture that can move your dream forward without you having to be spinning 12 different plates at one time and with your hands in the pot. So, Mads, welcome to Bacon Wrapped Business.

Thank you very much, Brad. I'm super excited to get bacon wrapped today.

Exactly. So, yeah, as I mentioned right here in the intro, like, this is one of the things for myself and one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show. I have been very guilty of being too much of a lone wolf in building my businesses and oftentimes reaching out and just outsourcing tasks to just virtual assistants and not really building out a team and getting everybody kind of rowing in the same direction. And I know that it's held me back from accomplishing some of the things that I've wanted to accomplish. And it's hard. It's hard to start to, you know, build and manage a team because oftentimes you spend. I found myself spending more time managing people than pushing the company forward. So I'm really interested to hear some of your insights, but I want to first kind of understand your journey and how you became this expert at building and managing teams.

Sure, yeah. I mean, my Journey actually started back when I was about 18. I was originally a very typical computer geek when I grew up. I, I think when I was about 15, home with my mom and dad, I had like five computers in my room and I was nerding out every day. And what happened was when I turned 18, I got my first job. It was part of an internship with a company called Xerox and literally within a month and a half I got a boss who was absolutely amazing. I mean I've always heard jobs to be these horrible things that people hate going to and frustrating Friday is this big celebration and everything. But I got this boss and I really saw how happy everyone was working with her and like it was a real joy. And sort of within a month or two I actually went from wanting to be a computer geek to wanting to become a manager and just to bore you guys too much. I basically ended up spending about 12 years, 1012 years learning and studying. Not official studying, it was all self study but I paid for multiple seminars out of my own pocket. I read about a book a week for over 10 years. So I've been in and around management pretty much since I was 18 and it's been my big passion. So eventually I moved to IBM and I worked with them for about six, seven years or so. And eventually while I was at IBM I started doing coaching with other managers and other companies and helping them out and that went really, really well. And eventually I actually started making more money doing a little bit of coaching every week. More money than I would in my 60 hour management job with IBM which kind of was a good indication that it was maybe time to start doing something else. So that's basically what I did. I left. I lived in UK at the time and I basically I stayed here for about three, four months but then eventually I ended up moving to Asia where a lot of this sort of this entrepreneur community was like originally I worked very much with, with large businesses and people working like Coca Cola and Shell and like big business. But I really found it so much more fun to work with small entrepreneurs, right because if you go into a big company like people like oh great management coaching or training that means I can have an hour off or sit and sleep for an hour. Whereas when you're talking with entrepreneurs like if they hire you it's because they want to learn, right? So they're, they're much more on, they're much more ability to effect affect the business. So like my ability to actually like see people grow and scale, I mean one of My first clients I work with one of my first larger client managed to go from 30 to 90 people about. In about three months from I started working with them after having been stagnant for almost two years. Right. So, like, seeing that kind of explosive growth is super, super fun. And it's. Yeah, I love helping people and it really makes me. It satisfy me professionally. That's great.

You know, So a lot of the people who are probably listening to this show are. Let's assume that a lot of them are smaller entrepreneurs who are trying to do a lot of the things themselves. And they've toyed with outsourcing and maybe a having whether it's a partner, a couple team members or an employee or two, but they've kind of kept it small and nimble because of both money as well as lack of knowledge on how to effectively manage people. What do you think are some of the biggest mistakes people make when starting to build out their team and as well as once they've got their team, what are some of the biggest things that caused this frustration? Because, I mean, if you figure this out, the world is your oyster. You know, if you got a great idea and you can build the resources and the team to accomplish it, that's what it takes. But what do you think are some of the biggest issues that people have to kind of overcome?

So, number one, and I mean, full disclosure, I run a business as well for virtual assistants. And that actually came at the back of the fact that I. I work with a lot of clients. I was trying to hire virtual assistants, and they really struggled to hire and manage them. So now we have a company helping doing just that. But generally, I would say, number one, a lot of people look at virtual assistant as something very different from an employee, and it's not. I would even go as far as, say, the second you start treating them as such, you're making your first vital mistake. Whenever you work with other human beings, doesn't matter if it's freelancers or whatever, they paid $5 or 50 DOL or whatever. Like when you, when you have other people working on your business, right. You want to bring them in if it makes sense, and you really want to let them add value to your company. Right. And this focus on, like, a lot of people that I've seen fail with virtual assistants. Like, they're like, oh, I'm paying them for 40 hours, I should find work for them. And they end up spending so much time making up crap work that doesn't add any value to the company to try and keep people busy with something that they aren't even clear about themselves. One of the actual key objectives and one of the key things that I always work with my clients on is getting really, really clear on your vision and sort of your mission as a company. Right. A lot of the business, like, I've worked with a ton of business in the SEO industry, for example, and very often it's like, oh, yeah, we do SEO. Like, for who? Oh, well, businesses that can afford to pay us. Right. And the problem is if you start bringing employees on board and the vision for your company isn't clear and you don't have sort of a clear structure to what you're doing, then it's so much harder to bring people on board because it's all about learning. And it's harder. You can still do it, but it's harder to give them clear ways, roles and responsibilities. And honestly, like, one of my favorite things is hiring staff, giving them responsibility. And reality is some of them drown, right? Some of them don't pick it up and run with it. But the key thing in recruitment is finding the right people and finding people that can get it moving. Right? So as an example, like, I recently hired a girl probably about a month ago, and she used to have a HR background, so nothing technical at all. I told her I had to start a podcast, and I basically gave her the raw podcast files and get her to figure everything out. Right? Like, where should a podcast be hosted? How do you share it, like, everything, right? And just got it to run with it. Now, fundamentally, it was a business decision because I didn't feel it was worth my time doing that. And reality is that there's probably a ton better ways of doing it than what she does. And that's okay. In the end of the day, she learns as much as I would have had. And the thing is, six months from now, she will be better than I could ever be at doing it. Right? Right. And that's the whole fundamental. Right? So the ability to bring in people. And in majority of cases, I don't necessarily look at people's skills that much. I'll look at the personality, the attitude, and really their core values if they align with mine and with the business. Right? Because that' really the essence you're looking for. If you have a driven person, like, I obviously don't know you particularly well, but again, everything else being equal, if you were available for hire, I would assume that you're someone who could take responsibility, who could do some action on your own, etc. And generally, like, people who can do that are amazing. Right. And you can find them all over the world at different levels with different backgrounds and so on. But you can find a lot of really great people.

Absolutely. You know, one of my. One of my biggest problems, I know one of my faults here has been finding, you know, once I find the right person and having the vision of where we want to go, I often end up being too hands off, and I expect them to read my mind and just get this stuff done. Because it's like, all right, I got you in place. Just go do your work. And I forget about the management or actually what I end up confusing as being a real leader and a manager. I do believe I'm a better leader than I am a manager. And I think having somebody in place, whether it's a coo, integrator type role, to help kind of manage the team on a day, just kind of a daily, weekly basis, but trying to really step into more of a leadership role versus a manager for myself. But I know that in order to be a really good leader, oftentimes you need to. You really need to understand the management, you know, what goes into the management and the capability and the skill sets there.

And I mean, one thing, and it's a simple question that I ask most people is, have you ever started a new job, walked into that job on day one, how did you feel? Yeah, right. The problem for most entrepreneurs is they know every inch of their business because they build it all and they expect they can hire someone and they can say, oh, go do this thing. Read my mind, read my mind. Go do this thing. And the thing is like, like, I've started the new job a couple of times and like, when you walk in on the first day, like, one thing is, if you have a physical job where there's human beings you can interact with, but particularly if it's a remote job, you're like, okay, I'm supposed to work now what am I supposed to do? How does this thing work? And very often people are like, oh, yeah, I. I shared your access to our Google Drive. And then you're like, great, there's 70 billion files that I have no idea what is and how they work and anything, right? And like, from even from a leadership perspective, like, you have to take good care. You have to communicate a lot with people in the beginning, and you have to be available, right. If you want. Like, the first month, month and a half is really the most critical when you bring in new people, right? And you have to be Available. You have to, you have to build up their confidence and show them they can do some things that give them some wins. Right. Because very often what happens is people keep giving stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff, and they never really become comfortable with any of it. And what happens afterwards is, oh, I don't feel I'm good at this. I don't feel I'm good at this. Or boss man shouted, I did this wrong and that wrong. I suck at this job.

Right.

The second you feel I suck at this job is not the second where you suddenly get boosted full of confidence and like, yeah, I'm gonna do the next thing. You basically kind of fall down and you're like, oh, this is tough, this is hard. I hate this job. That kind of thing. Right. So you have to. You have to really be focused on people in the beginning. You have to really help them get some early wins, and you have to really show some appreciation for things, even if they make some mistakes and stuff that's cool. But you have to really make it clear what they're doing well. And you have to really help them boost their confidence. Right. Because when they get the confidence and when they. That's what really builds them up and help them actually jump into new things. Right? Right.

What do you recommend for the type of entre. And I'll actually use myself as an. As an example because I have a very small team myself. I try to be. I've got my hands in a handful of pots. I work with a lot of consulting clients. I have a business that I purchased. I've got equity in a couple other businesses that I do more advisory role for, but I'm trying to increase my effectiveness, and I know that that requires other team members.

Right.

I know that one of the issues that I have is when you're. And I know some of my listeners are in the same spot where, when you're in that almost a early stage transition moment where you're. You're running fast, your hair's on fire, you're trying to keep up with all the things that have to be done, that hiring the right people, and then it almost feels like taking. Having to take two or three steps back and really slow yourself down in order to kind of get that momentum. And I think that I know that's been one of the hardest parts for me and it's kept me from effectively delegating, hiring, et cetera, is that I just hate to go slow. And I'm like, I'd rather just kind of barrel through this and get it done myself and keep that momentum as opposed to kind of slowing down in order to hire, train, manage the right people. Do you help in your management coaching? Do you help people kind of get over that hump of like realizing that you kind of have to move, go a little bit slower in order to go faster?

Yeah, definitely. And I've actually built a management course specifically. Right. Because again, majority of people tend to have a lot of the same challenges. On messengers.com management academy, I actually have what I call the 8020 of management, and that's a really, really effective course that help you learn the basics of management. And the number one thing for me is always around communication, learning how different individuals communicate differently and really learning how to communicate with different types of employees. Because that's absolutely key. Right. And what I would say, actually majority of people, what I find so interesting is they spend so much time and resources buying all these courses and here's an AdWords course and SEO course and all this stuff. But so few people, and not just business owners, but in general, so few people actually invest in their management skills. And it's true, it's really strange because like the same thing, someone will say, oh, you're good at, I don't know, you're good at running Facebook ads. I'll promote you to be Facebook ads team leader. And you're like, oh, great, how are you gonna help me? Well, here's another Facebook ads course, right. I've literally, I probably never seen work with a business owner that actually have a somewhat good training system for training the managers within their organization. So when they promote people into management positions, actually some kind of training to help them grow and develop.

Yeah, that's key because just being a specialist at a particular area of your business, like you said, like a media buyer or something, does not mean they're necessarily skilled to manage and lead other people. One of my former clients, she was a managerial consultant for technical leaders. And she said, you know, she worked with big, you know, huge Fortune 500 companies where sometimes they were in oil, the oil and gas space, or they were in high tech. And they, the business was filled with engineers and technical people who are great at the science typic parts, but then they got promoted into, you know, chief whatever, officer and they had no managerial skills. So that was her thing is to come in and help those people transition effectively to leading the other nerds instead of just being another.

And that's a big thing here, right? I mean, it's such a shame because like, honestly, if you can learn to Be an engineer. If you can learn AdWords or if you can learn Facebook ads or SEO or web development, you can learn management, right? Like, like, as I said, like my course with 8020 sort of management skills, like it's not that complex. Yep. There's a bunch of sort of fairly standard procedures and things that you want to be able to do, but it's not complex. And this is where most people go wrong. The problem is one, they don't know where to look. But again, from a management standpoint, like a lot of big organizations, like when I worked in IBM, for example, like they have their internal sort of trainings and sometimes they have external training consultants come in. I still wouldn't say they did a great job at it, but at least they did a little bit. But the whole fundamental, like if you want to grow, and if you want to grow a really good company, right? And most people actually do what someone like yourself do, right? Like they have a consultancy, they get their hands in a few different products, pies. And the problem is that makes you really busy and it doesn't help you grow a team, right? So fundamentally, like, like generally the way I look at business is you, you want to build a business and you have to build it up to a certain scale, right? Because what happens is when you start building a larger business, what happens is you start building talent and culture. And when you start building that, like, I can go and start a new business tomorrow because I have existing businesses which, with a ton of talent in them, I can go and basically take out some talented people from those organizations and start a brand new business that will be super successful, right? But the whole essence, particularly with entrepreneurs, is when they have this sort of very clear, focused business idea, then to keep working on it. Because if you're not there yet, right, if you haven't got a team in place to run that business, right, you're not ready to start another one. And it's, as an entrepreneur, this shiny object syndrome is amazing. It's fun. But reality is like, if you're trying to optimize for profits at least, or trying to optimize for time, or having a, let's call it a nice life, generally starting a new business is not a great idea because generally you're gonna do exactly the same as you did in the first one because you still haven't learned the lessons of how do I build this team?

I know, I know, I've been a victim of that many times. When you, when you are, when you are beginning to build your team Out. Do you try, and I know this depends upon the type of business you're building, but do you typically try to start with virtual employees and contractors or do you go straight for him like actual employees? How do you typically do that for yourself?

Either way, I treat them the same. But generally, if I was to start a new business tomorrow, what I would look at a lot is sort of the sort of profit margins, right? Because if you're running very low margin businesses, you might be better off with lower cost labor. However, in sort of, let's say you run a Facebook ad agency right now, you might need some low cost labor to do some basic stuff, but at some point you also want to start bringing high quality labor in who can actually really help you scale it. Right. Because if you're in a business where you can make a ton of money and can better afford those kind of rates, then that makes a lot of sense. Right. But for most businesses, like I really look at, I really look at the individual business. So if we take something like customer service, which is often outsourced, right. If customer service should be outsourced, I tend to look at one, the volume of it. I mean, if you have two emails per day benefiting from outsourcing. But again, if your brand like Ferrari, if you're selling a top quality product at a premium price, you probably want the support to be as close to the buyer as possible.

I couldn't agree more on that. I always recommend that, yeah, if you can afford to have, if you've got enough people, have your customer support. There's some of your best salespeople and brand ambassadors because they're the ones dealing with your customers and there's nothing better than a happy customer.

Yeah. Now again, if you are selling product like for example, physical products with very slim margins, it probably doesn't make sense for you to have someone sitting locally and doing customer service. Right. So, so again, I like looking at the business, I like looking at, I look at individual roles because this, I mean unless you actually run a company like Ferrari or the likes, there's some roles that lean a lot more to lower cost labor than others. And again, we hire people across the globe. We tend to hire developers in Eastern Europe like Ukraine and the likes. We hire a lot of sort of native, very good writers and so on. In South Africa we hire a lot of sort of customer service and really amazing people in Philippines. So like we, we, we like looking at where do you get the best bang for buck, Right. Because as a, as an online entrepreneur with, with with the opportunity to hire people anywhere. For me, it's always about optimization. Right. And, and like minimum salary in South Africa is like two bucks an hour or something. And majority of people there, or at least a large portion of them, are native English speakers. Right, Right. So personally, I like looking around and seeing what there is, but in the end of the day, it's looking at what makes sense for the business right now and what makes sense for the role. But no matter what, I mean, even if you hire people at a low salary, treat them as employees. I know plenty of people who have literally Filipinos running their business. Some of, some of our clients that have had VAs or Filipinos for four or five years, like these guys are literally running their businesses and it's very possible if you take care of them the right way.

Bingo. Now you've got, you've got two really cool resources here for people. And I like because one of them is the. And I'll put links to this in the show notes, guys, if you're listening. But you've got this management academy, so you've got the ability for this is what it teaches people, what we're talking about, how to, how to better manage your team. Is that correct? Like, tell me a little bit more about this.

Right? Yeah, it's people management focused, right. So it's very, very much about how to effectively manage your people, how to effectively communicate with them. Also a whole bunch about recruitment and so on. And it's a living course. So I'm. I am still working on additional things to add to it. But, yeah, that's it. I mean, everyone loves it. So I think we've sold about 130 copies so far.

Beautiful.

Haven't had a single refund request because again, people are overwhelmed.

This is one of those soft skills, right? It's a people skill. It's one of those things that a lot of us entrepreneurs, we spend a lot of time learning how to, you know, build product and drive traffic and get people to buy and all the various traffic strategies, etc. One of the things we forget about is that, you know, if you look at the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, it's because of their people skills. I mean, like Richard Branson can't, you know, find a, you know, a more remarkable entrepreneur who's got tons and tons of companies. And if you ask him what the number one skill set of what has led to his success, it's really finding the right people, putting them in the right place and inspiring them and leading them. Now, granted, I don't, you know, Richard doesn't do the day to day management stuff. But it all falls back on. I'm sure he did at some point, but it all falls back down into can you properly and efficiently build teams and delegate and get them to help you achieve your dreams?

Now you do say that, but I can promise you he definitely talks with people within the company. So even though he's not like down the nitty gritty in the same way as a CEO would be necessarily like, you can be trusted. He is still on top of things.

Yeah. And I guarantee that when he was starting a lot of his businesses, he was. I mean, he still put the right people in place and he was much more hands on. But, you know, you know, but now you're starting to pay attention to the bigger things, the bigger key performance indicators of what's our profit and loss look like, what are the big problems and how are my managers managing? And I think that's ultimately where we'd all like to get to because it just opens up so many more opportunities. You've also, Mads, you've got Aristo sourcing. So this is an outsourcing service and I'd like to. I'd like to hear a little bit more about this because I've used a lot of outsourcing services in the past. I'd love to hear more about what you're doing with this.

Sure. So with Aristo, so basically, as I said, I had a lot of clients originally and they really struggled to find vas. And in the beginning we just helped them find the va, connect them and then they work with them. But then I realized they both struggle to find them and they struggle to manage them. So we are kind of doing the halfway house on that one. So basically we. Particularly when you work with people in different cultures and stuff, there's obviously additional complexity. We basically have a management team that help manage those VAs, find the VAs, help manage them. And then basically, so our client mostly need to tell them what to do and how to do it. Right. So that works really, really well.

A little bit more in detail how that works. So let's say I want to. And I'm on the Aristo sourcing. A R I s t o sourcing.com. that'll be in the show. Not as well. And I'm just on here. So I clicked on for instance, your services and I see, I scroll down and I see like E Commerce, for instance, Right?

Yep.

So let's say I've got an E Commerce Business or I'm looking to build an E commerce business and I'm looking to utilize some of the people that you're able to help find. Walk me through how this actually works from a user standpoint, like, what would I experience?

So basically we would normally have a call with the sales guy from the Aristo and basically he will go through all your requirements and try to figure out first of all, if you're a good match as a client, because again, We don't want to hook people up the wrong way and we don't want to sign up people who are not ready, etc. So we want to make sure people are ready for it. We then try and figure out if they kind of fit what we're looking for. So our focus is generally from the beginning, at least around process execution. Ideally people who do businesses where there are executable processes. Because that's generally like, if you're a business owner, that's generally where you have the biggest cost savings initially, right? So for example, if you're doing E commerce and you have a ton of customer service, or sometimes we have clients where we manually sit and place orders, like every time they get ordered, we manually sit and place them in some other system and things like that. So basically a lot of sort of repeatable work and that's generally what we like doing, right? So we have a call with the individual, we talk with them, we try and figure out the requirements, etc. If we feel it's a good fit, we then go and identify the right person. Sometimes we already have them on board, sometimes we need to go hire them externally and then basically we get them set up, we get them running and then, yeah, it's really up to them. A lot of the time when we talk with clients initially, they might not have very good process documentation, et cetera. So we often work with them and help them, sort of guide them on what to get together. Because again, like, I mean, most of the time we use videos, right? But, but, but even having some good videos sort of going through some of the core tasks are really, really important, right? So that again, you can sit and explain everything in sort of screen share and so on. But, but generally both to save yourself time and so on, it's often a big benefit recording it as videos, right? And then the second thing I love doing like one, you don't want to hire someone and then make them not busy. Because what happens is as an individual, if you're not busy in a job, you slow down and you get used to Doing things in a slower tempo.

Or you go out and they find another gig on the side. This has happened to me.

Exactly. Yeah.

And then when you do need them to get busy again, they don't have the bandwidth.

Exactly. So you want to keep them busy. Right. So definitely some core focus on what the initial task is. But then I love using something I call Forever Tasks, and it is exactly what it says. It's basically something that's always valuable to you but generally isn't critical. So for most business owners, that could be things like lead generation, reaching out to potential prospects on LinkedIn or for a lot of SEO company, there's a lot of SEO sort of link outreach. For a lot of E commerce owners, there's sort of outreach to potential affiliates or outreach to influencers and the likes. So really, some of these tasks that, you know, whenever there's nothing else to do, they can go do those. That's. That's a really, really good thing because I see so many people that, like, oh, I have to spend the next two hours figuring out what the VA should do next. And the thing is, very often they interrupt themselves and they actually stress themselves out, spending so much time trying to make up work for an employee rather than just having something as a backup that they can always go and do. Right.

I've been there. I know exactly what you mean. Okay, so. So with Aristo sourcing, I decide what I want. I'm going to get a call with somebody on your team. They're.

They're going to.

They're going to pull out of me. Like, what is it I'm looking to accomplish? What are some of the. What are some of the things they're going to. Then you guys help to. Do you guys write the ad? The job ad? Do I write it? Do you guys do the recruit?

We. We basically we extract all the information from you that we need. Mm. And then we deal with all that. Great.

And then do you present, like, one person or a few people for me as the client to potentially interview?

Okay, so that's. It's a little bit dependent on the specific role. So if it's broad roles, we often give you a couple of options if it's very specific or like, you know, sometimes when you interview people, you just find like a perfect match type thing, and sometimes it's one, but in most cases it's a couple of people. So. Yeah.

Okay, perfect. And then the rates are all. Are they primarily determined by the task and the outsourcer that you're using?

Actually, generally the rates are sitting around $700 a month for a full time person. We generally don't do any less than full time because what we see consistently is people leaving. And, and the reason is majority of people want full time work. They rather want a part time job than no job. But what often happen is to get a part time job, they keep looking and then when they get a full time one, they disappear or run away. And the last thing you want to do is spend a lot of time investing in for them to run away. Right, so. So that's why we only do full time stuff. Perfect.

No, that makes a lot of sense. Well, this has been, this has been great. I mean, I love talking about this. It's one of the areas where I know that I've been personally deficient in and trying to always kind of balance how do I put the resources together in order to accomplish what I want. And those especially with the people so that I'm not doing the work, you know, that somebody else would be much better at, at a much lower rate than I typically charge and that I'm worth. And I know that these are the kind of skills that a lot of the entrepreneurs who are listening to this show really should be either developing now or looking to develop in the very near future. Because it really is how you get to the next level. Because if you keep on doing the things that have gotten you to where you're at and if you don't change and do something else, you'll stay at that level of entrepreneurship forever. So this is fantastic. So where is the best way place for listeners to connect with you and learn more?

Yeah, I mean generally I'm, I was about to say I'm all over the social universe. All that means I have.

Are you on MySpace? That's what's important these days.

No, but The Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn is probably the best ways to find me.

Fantastic.

I do a ton of podcasts. I have just kicked off my own podcast, as I mentioned, and lots of stuff getting, getting posted on those social channels.

Congratulations, that's great. So I will put links to everything you've talked about here in the show. If you guys want to learn more about Mads, go to madssingers.com and you can go to madsingers.com management academy or you can go to Aristo Sourcing A R I S T O Sourcing and learn more about this. Mads, thanks a lot for joining me on the show today. I really appreciate it. This has been super enlightening and I hope that people start to really think about their business in a new way.

Yeah. As I say to most people, if I can convince just a few people to actually start investing in their managers and helping them grow, let alone themselves, but also the management team, like that's the biggest change I can help them do.

That's awesome. Well guys, hope you've enjoyed this. If you're not a subscriber to the show, hit that subscribe button and let me know what you thought. Leave a review on itunes. I read every single one of them. And if you are having any issues in your business, if you are kind of stuck, if you've plateaued, if you'd like to get another set of eyeballs on one of your ideas, you can always shoot me an email to ask bradakenwrappedbusiness.com I'll take a look and see if it's something that I may be able to help you out with. Until next time. Thanks again, Mads, and I'll see you guys on the next episode.