Mike Filsaime Shares Sizzling Hot Online Sales Strategies & Growth Hacking Secrets Of An 8-Figure Empire

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Alright, welcome back to Bacon Wrapped Business. Today is a special video episode. So if you're listening to this on the podcast, I want to encourage you to go over to baconwrappedbusiness.com mikef I made this one real easy for you guys to spell. In case you're listening, you want to go to it. If you want looking on the show notes, just go ahead and click the link because today we're interviewing Mike Filsaim and we're going to talk about some incredible strategies that Mike's up to. I'm fortunate enough to know Mike. I've followed him for years. We've become friends and a mastermind together. And if there's anybody who can deliver the bacon wrapped strategies, the sizzling hot advice, it's Mike. And Mike, I'm really excited to have you on the show today. As I said, I've, you know, I think the first time we may have met, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it was somebody else. But were you at Kevin Wilkie's Quattro event back in like 2008?

Oh, yeah. Way back. Yes. Yeah, yeah, that was a great event. Yeah.

And I think that butterfly marketing had just kind of come out. When did you come out with that?

Butterfly marketing came out in January of 2006. But I did a, I did a rerelease, I think in 2008, where we were giving away the course for trial of our newsletter and we put 15,000 people into a $39 a month newsletter by giving away the $2,000 product.

I love it. Well, to back up a little bit for the folks who don't know who you are. So Mike, you've been in the online marketing business since when? About early 2000s or.

Yeah, so I bought my first domain October 2002.

Nice.

Was this, this great domain? I mean, you know, a lot of people call me all the time looking for it. It was called lets all workathome.com because workathome.com was taking. So let's workathome.com was taking and they couldn't fool me. So I got let's all work@home.com. i always chuckle it. Like, you know, when you first buy those domains, you know, everybody's got, like, these, you know, funny little first domains, like hateyourboss.com and stuff. So. So that was October of 2002. I bought a product from Frank Kern. Actually, Frank was my idol for a long time. Friends Now I make him do my dishes.

Exactly. Is that him in the apron back there?

That's him. He had the apron back there. October 2003. I mean, March of 2003, things started clicking for me. So about six months later, I'm doing about five grand a month. I was working in the car industry. I was a general manager of the second largest Hyundai dealership in the United States, Millennium Hyundai, and was also before that, the general sales manager of the 9th largest Toyota dealership in the country.

You got sales in your blood.

Yeah, Yeah. I did that for 14 years. So. Started making money in 2003. By 2004, I. I was doing about 18,000amonth. It was more money than I was making in the car business. Not gonna bore you with that story, but came to heads with the. You know, with the general manager of the 13 car franchise. And he told me, you've gotta make a decision. It's either that or this. And I really think he thought I was selling on ebay, maybe making about 800 bucks a month on Chachki. So when I told him, hey, it's been a great five years, he was like, really?

Yeah.

And he said, give me the keys to your demo. Give me the keys to the safe. Give me the keys to the front door. He walked out like Gordon Gekko on the phone saying, tommy, you're the new general manager of Millennium Hyundai. And everybody chased me outside. And I'm trying to compose myself and call my wife at the time and tell her to come pick me up because I don't have a car anymore. And she's like, what? You mean we have no health insurance? And I'm like, don't worry about that right now. And everybody's like, mike, you know, John, talk to him. Don't worry about it. Everything's going to be okay. And I'm like, excuse my language. So I'll just use the F word.

Pit it.

I was like, f this. F him. F this place. F this business. I'm. You know, I'm crying, and I couldn't control myself. And I'm like. I said, guys, you don't. You don't get it. I've been. I didn't have the balls to do this myself. I'm so glad that this day happened because now I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go on my own. And they're like, no, talk to him in the morning. And I said, no, you don't, you don't realize. I feel like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. Like, I feel like freedom. Freedom, exactly. So the very next month I went on to do $50,000. Three months later I had an $85,000 day. And a year later I had, I did the million dollar launch with butterfly marketing. We did $1.5 million with that launch. And, and as they say, that was 2006. The rest is history. But, but yeah, it started out just, you know, read a sales letter one day that, you know, hey, you can make money online. It was 2002. Times were very different. I was trying to remind people this, you know, I may be wrong on the date, but I believe it's something like this. In 2004, the guys that started YouTube were working for PayPal in their part time. They started YouTube in 2005. They bought the domain name YouTube. In 2006, Google bought YouTube. So there was no MySpace, you know, Friendster hadn't come out. There was no social networking. It was impossible for me to know who you are. You couldn't even get video on without having to download like this Vidx Codex. We didn't even know how. People take for granted, Brad, how difficult it was to get a picture online. You know, we didn't have these types of forms.

You had to like scan them or.

You had to scan them, or you had a 35 millimeter camera, you had a scan or you had a digital camera that you were at Radio Shack trying to say, how do I get this into my computer? Because USB hadn't come out yet. Every computer were like 30,000 different serial buses. And then finally you get the picture off and you don't realize that it's. You know, back then it was a large file for a dial up. It might have been like a 2 meg photo or something. Should be 36 kilobytes. So the photo would load on your website like this.

I do remember that it took two.

Minutes for a photo load and you'd have to take it off because you didn't know what you did wrong. That's how difficult it was back then. You know, WordPress wasn't around. It was just, it was, it was difficult, but it was also fun.

I feel like we're the guys from the Saturday Night Live skit. In our day we didn't have YouTube. We loved it.

Yeah, exactly. You know, back then people were doing these things called teleseminars because webinars hadn't come out yet where they were teaching you about the ability to take credit cards online. No joke. They were saying you no longer have to put call or fax your order in because it was difficult to take credit cards. PayPal was just starting to make it easy for people. I'm gonna shut off my wonder list here. It keeps sending me notifications.

All the stuff you have to do.

Yeah, well, somebody. Other people on my team keep checking off the stuff they're doing. Yeah. But you know, it's a little backstory about me now.

That's great. And you know, I. I remember. Yeah. So I got into the business in 2000, actually the very January of 2008. I met you briefly at Kevin's event and I purchased some of your stuff. Over the years, I think the first thing I purchased, you had a software that allowed you to put your offer on the thank you pages.

Thank you pages.

What was that called?

The software was called Hyper Java.

That's right.

But the product launch with the training and everything was called Traffic Fusion.

Traffic Fusion. That's right.

That's the one where I was. Everybody was doing the hey, do a video in your car. And I pulled out of my parking lot and didn't look in a car. I almost got hit by a car.

Did you get that on video?

Yeah, it was on video. It's probably out there somewhere.

That's awesome.

Yeah, Traffic Fusion.

So yeah. And to just enlighten the folks who are listening, we. One of the things that you're kind of very much known for is not only just training on information of the how to, the informational products of what to do with video tutorials, et cetera, but you've always created software that makes your life easier. So from Traffic Fusion, even butterfly marketing was kind of a software component, right?

Yes.

Or a script that allowed you to get other people to sell your products after they enlist them as an affiliate to help spread the word for quick explanation. And then throughout the years, not only have you had some of the top information products and training out there, but now you've got. And correct me if I'm wrong, but webinar jam on how to use how to run really high end webinars, really sophisticated but easy to use webinars. Using Google Hangouts, you've got dealguardian entire marketplace and takes place a merchant account and affiliate software for people. I've seen it it's absolutely remarkable. You've got the, obviously the Genesis products, Traffic Genesis and Video Genesis. And I know you're working on a new one with I believe it's Conversion Genesis if I'm not mistaken. But I've always been really.

Yeah, we did, yeah, with Andy we did Video Genesis, Genesis Labs, then Traffic Genesis, now we're doing Conversion Genesis. And the softwares we put out were Webinar Jam and Deal Guardian.

Yeah. And I think that's great how you give people not only just the tools, you give them the training, but also the tools too.

Yeah, I developed a lot of software over the years. I actually was stronger in software than information products. And my first big info product, Butterfly marketing, was really wrapped around a software. I developed another marketplace years back in 2005 to compete with ClickBank that I sold for a pretty good amount of money back in 2013. Just recently sold it because I wanted to move to DealGuardian.

Which marketplace was that?

That's right, that's right, yeah. P-A-Y--O-T c o m dot com. So it was a nine letter domain, always confused people. But so yeah, pay dot com, you know, made me millions over the years. And the tough part about selling it was getting a buyer that understood that I wasn't going to give a non compete because I was going with Deal Guardian.

Sure.

But I didn't want to. I didn't feel the need, I needed too many. And I basically, you know, found somebody. I said, look, it's a money maker. You don't even have to do anything. You can just wake up every day and it'll make you money. But I did small software things like viral friend generator to powerlink generator back in the day. Then we did the Traffic Fusion product. We also had things like when Twitter came out, I tried to compete with TweetDeck with a product called Tweet Glide. And basically the more you tweeted, the more points you would get for free ads. Twitter didn't have ads. So we created an ad platform and the more people you referred, the more they tweeted, the more credits you got. So it was kind of like one of those downline builders if you would inside of a Twitter product. We tried a lot of different things, right.

And I've got a software that I developed, this was at the time that I developed a product in the dating advice niche. I also developed a software product for GPS devices to change the voice in your GPS called pig tones, politically incorrect GPS. And most people aren't using Garmin and TomTom anymore versus just like the iPhone, which is what I use. But the software business has always had kind of been a double edged sword. It's way quicker and easier to throw up an information product and make some quick money. But the nice part about software is if it's really good, you get people paying you month after month after month, you get that nice continuity income.

Yeah, if you look at Webinar Jam compared to a product launch, it did phenomenal. It made multiple millions in its launch. But usually a launch goes like this and then it goes like that. Unless you're driving advertising to it, which you should. But some companies can even do so strong on word of mouth without even doing advertising. And the nice thing about things like Webinar Jam is that product does about $125,000 a month. If I went away for a year and just decided I want to go on some Antarctic exploration, I would come back and it wouldn't change as long as I had my support desk taking care of the customers. So having a company like that, that now you can say, now I can go do YouTube advertising and Facebook advertising and Google pay per click and drive traffic to it. That's where it gets good. And in this day and age, the more and more that you have a software as a service company, usually there is some type of link involved in the sharing of that product. So if I want to share something with you with Screencast or with Jing, I give you a link and then when it's done it says get a free Jing account, you know, or if I share something with you with Dropbox, as you download it, it says would you like to create a free download Dropbox account to store this in or download it directly to your computer. And you know, if you get an invitation to work in my project software and we're working together and I say hey Brad, join me over here. And suddenly you get an invite. You're like, oh wow, Mike and Andy are using this. So whenever you have a software that does that, sometimes it can propagate itself. It can self perpetuate through the use of different users, add a little bit of social aspects and elements and incentives for people to do so and even better. And for webinarjam we have a little tracking code in the player. So it's branded just like gotowebinar and unclickable. And it says powered by webinarjam. But we the opportunity when they build a webinar one time in their profile to add their affiliate link to that, and then that takes that little powered by Webinar Jam and makes it a live hot link. And if people click that, it goes to Webinar Jam. And if you were doing a webinar with 400 people and anybody clicked it, Webinar Jam and buy the product and you get paid your commission. And what's interesting is we have hundreds and hundreds of webinars every single day, from 30 people to 400. Some people that I've never heard on get five times more people than I can. We had people got last week, got 5,000 people on a webinar. Seriously, I'm like, yeah. I'm like, who is this person? Yeah. And they were in the real estate niche. It was fantastic. But that's 5,000 people. And the more and more we're getting online, the more and more the people that learn information from us, many of them have their own websites and their own businesses. It used to not be true, but definitely in personal development, in finance and in make money, we find that to be true. But even in health products, I'm finding that people that go on webinars for Shailene Johnson, many of these people are personal experts or they have their own Zumba websites and they're trying to build their own community. So the bottom line is we're getting people that go on Webinar Jam as a guest of somebody else, as a guest of Brad Costanza or guest of Shailene Johnson or Brendon Bouchard. And then they say, oh, Brad's using this. That's interesting. If it's good enough for Brad, it's good enough for me. And so our users are helping us advertise the product just by the use. And the more users we get, the more it's a snowball effect, this flywheel effect that happens, right? Yeah.

Ryan Holiday wrote a book called Growth Hacking not too long ago, and this was kind of his whole concept about how software and app companies, etcetera, they're hacking the growth without traditional marketing. They're building in the viral aspects. And that's really. It's kind of like what butterfly marketing was all about as well. Right. Turn your. Turn, your customers, in this case info, product buyers into your.

Exactly.

Into your affiliates. That's. That's fantastic. So one. One day, in a couple times, a couple answers you gave me at two different masterminds that we were in one day, I asked you, so, you know what. What part of the whole marketing thing do you like the most? And I think you answered the conversion like that. You know, most, most marketers tend to gravitate towards more the conversion side. Like if you could spend all your day writing, you know, coming up with hooks and copy and offers versus coming up with traffic strategies, etc. Did I get that right? Are you. Is the conversion side of things a little bit more of your passion?

Yeah, I'm fascinated.

With why people buy.

Fascinating that human beings move in her. It's right. That.

Yeah.

Like for instance, if I don't think we really go down to this granular to the fact that if I have a 29% conversion on an opt in page and you say to me, mike, this is something we tested and it increased our conversion, you should try it. And my conversion goes from 20% to 45%. Really what we have there, Brad, more than anything, is a study in human behavior. Because it's not something that helped me close one person. It doesn't matter if I'm getting 10 visitors a day or 100 visitors a day or 10,000 visitors a day or a million visitors a day, that conversion rate would have stayed at 29% or we'll compete over here doing better at 45%. So what it means is fundamentally human beings make decisions the same way and in mass numbers.

Yeah.

Over several days, over several years that we can predict the way humans are going to work, even cross knits. You can tell me. It worked for me in this market. It's something I did on my podcast. Try it here. So for me, the fascinating thing about the conversion is really breaking down into the human psyche. So that's why I'm fascinated with books like Predictably Irrational.

Oh, that's a great book.

Dan Arielle, his other book, yes, obviously influence the psychology of persuasion. Books by Joe Sugarman like triggers when you can. When you can find out what improves conversion based on the way human beings think. Because we, we respond to stimuli. As much as people say, advertising doesn't work on me, it's like, yeah, look at the shirt you're wearing. You know, it does. We conform to group norms, we want to fit in crowds, we want to do things that others do. We make different choices based on different options we have when the choices are there. And that's why there's things like price, decoys, all these little things that work in the human mind to me is fascinating and I study that more than anything. And just to give some ideas about the way that the human mind works based on the frame that you put before something when you say it, for instance, the simple way to say it Is if somebody says it's raining, it's sunny today, but it's going to rain tomorrow, people will say, oh, yeah, that's too bad. We're framing that with a negative outlook. If I say the same exact thing and I say it's going to rain tomorrow, but it's sunny today, that will change your attitude to be like, yeah, so let's take advantage of today. Right? So another example of that is if we take a look at somebody eating and they work out. Now, if you see somebody. And if we. If we understand, for the most part, calories in from food intake and calories burned in exercise are pretty much the same thing. Without getting too technical, a lot of people will argue that, and they should, because calories in. In food is a lot different. But let's just say that they're the same in through the mouth as they are working out. If I say, hey, Brad, I just saw you over at. Over at fit. Great workout. I'm gonna go over to Hodad's, and I'm gonna get a double bacon cheeseburger and fries and some of that orange sauce. You're gonna be like, dude, why would you do that? You just worked out. Yeah. You know, right. But there was a certain amount of calories I burnt off and a certain amount of calories I'm gonna. I'm gonna go put into my body. It's the same exact math. If I say to you, brad, I just ate it at Hodad's, man.

Now I'm gonna go to fit.

Now I'm gonna go to fit and burn it off. You're gonna be high five, brother. Right. the end of the day, they're the same. The same amount of math went in and calories in and calories out. Right? So if we. We can sometimes understand that that's simply a frame that's put around something that can change people's perspective. We can do it with words. We can do it with colors. We can do it with videos. They do it to us at the movie theaters, you know?

So give me an example of how you've used framing. And I'm predicting that I know what you might answer, but I may be wrong. But give me an example how you've used framing similar to this in your marketing.

It's the biggest thing that Andy and I struggle with before we start a product. Excuse me, we. For instance, for Traffic Genesis, everybody's talking traffic, so we didn't want to be just another traffic product. And here's some of the things you see. Traffic Equals money. Imagine you could spend a dollar and make two. People have all heard that before. So we needed to change their thinking by introducing a new frame. And it was what's called a pattern interrupt or an incongruent juxtaposition. And it's getting traffic is easy. Now, first, you're going to say to me and everybody listening to this podcast, if they're buying traffic or knows anything about traffic, they're going to say, no, it's not. And I'd be a fool not to finish my point. But, Brad, getting traffic is so easy, it's ridiculous. I mean, getting a thousand visitors is easy. And here. Here's the experiment. I'm going to give you $1,000. I'm going to take a thousand. And let's say we have 10,000 people listening on your podcast, and we get them a credit from Facebook as well. For a thousand. They give us all a thousand dollars. Real money. Guess what? Facebook is going to give you, me, and every single one of those people $1,000 worth of traffic. Right. So getting traffic is easy.

Yeah.

So you prove them 10 bucks, they're gonna give you 10 bucks worth of traffic. If you give them a hundred bucks, they're gonna give you 100 bucks worth of traffic. So you prove that. So then what's the problem? The problem is not getting the traffic. It's what happens when the traffic comes to your site. So we had to create the frame that you don't have a traffic problem. You have a conversion problem. Because getting the traffic is not hard. What's tough is spending $1,000 and not making anything. So we now have to figure out, okay, now that I know it's a conversion problem, you've just changed my thinking that if I can get the conversion problem fixed, you're right. Traffic is easy. Facebook will give me as much traffic as I can spend. And that's where it gets beautiful. So we focus Traffic Genesis on a course that we call the after the Click system. Everything that happens after the click is what makes that dollar turn into $2. We didn't want to focus so much on how to create ad sets and all that stuff, because that's teaching people how to spend that thousand dollars, which is very easy to do. Spending $1,000 is as easy as wasting $1,000. We wanted to show people that it's all about what happens after the click. And that was the frame that we created for Traffic Genesis in our first video.

That's great. You know, one of the. I was wrong, and I love what you said there because it is true. Because a lot of people think that, oh my God, traffic is so hard to get. Well, yeah, no, traffic is hard to get a good positive return on investment for that's a challenge, right? But traffic in general is, that's easy.

And that's the blessing is that if now, now that you know they're getting traffic's easy, then you never have to worry about getting traffic. All you've got to do is realize you got to focus on the conversion. Andy and I called it the scar. The $100 scar, right? Hundred dollar scar is I spent $100 on Facebook or Google AdWords and it didn't work for me. And those people, they never come back again. And they'll say, well, it just didn't work for my product. It didn't work for my niche. And we basically showed that. You sent an offer directly to a video sales letter. You didn't give a freemium, you didn't get their email address, you didn't have the proper sequence, you didn't have a tripwire, you didn't have an upsell process, your members area didn't monetize, you didn't do retargeting all these different things. We called it the no fail traffic system that if you implement these things pretty much it's impossible to fail at the prices you can buy traffic for. So what did you think it was?

I thought it was a little tidbit that you shared with me one time about pre framing with the checkbox, the upsells on the order form.

Yeah, that's a great example. That's one of a thousand. Do you want to sell that one?

Go ahead because this is yours and I love it. I still have not put it on any of my or my clients, whatever websites yet, but that's coming. So this is some bacon wrapped chisel right here.

So. So@pay.com people can probably still witness this today. I don't know if the new owners changed it, but when, when you signed up, I gave you an offer after you signed up and man, I lost a lot of money not doing that. I wanted to keep the site pure and not make a one time offer after people were opting in. And after two and a half years, I realized at one point I was getting 975 signups a day. And so I made a $97 offer that converted at 10%. So that meant I was getting 90 sales. At $90. So let's call that 100 sales. At $100, it was 10,000 a day. It wasn't like one click upsell. No, it was just an upsell. It was the first upsell. And we were doing. We were doing about $8,700 a day for a good long time. With that, it blew my mind. What really killed me was how much money I left on the table by not wanting to make an offer. Change my perspective about always make people offers. People love to buy, they hate to be sold. Just give them an opportunity. And that's where this leads to. So the offer was converting pretty good. But I decided to start split testing everything. And I tested with video, without video. And here's a little side note. At the end of the video, I tested something that actually had an improvement on video on conversion. At the end of the, the video, I just stood there and I kept going.

Just silent.

30 seconds. I said, hey, don't mind me. Take your time. Take all the time you need. And then I'd wait. I would just shake my head, look at my watch and. And be like, come on, you know what to do. I did that. And increased conversions. The pressure that they felt that I was watching made them take action. But that's not the real win.

No, that's great though. And it kind of reminds me, you know, if you really want to make somebody. Yeah. Silence, that awkward silence.

It's really what it is.

So they will, they'll fill it with something.

I think they also stayed on the page just to see, like, how long is he gonna do this? Because I took the scrub bar.

What's he gonna do?

Yeah. And I think at the end, maybe, who knows, you know what the word.

That's great.

You know, think why it did better. But anyway, so you have a page where people sign up and then after they sign up, they go, they think they're going to the members area, but they get the wait. We have a special offer for you. And what I did is at the top of that, it always said save 85% on some of our most popular products. But it's interruptive marketing. People when they sign up for something, they're expecting to go into the members area and start playing around and building products or getting an affiliate link to promote, not get sold something. So@pay.com, right where the sign up button was, where there's a tick box for the terms of service, I put another tick box and it simply said, I'm interested in saving 85%. I'm also interested in saving 85% on some of your most popular products now or in the future. So it was a dummy tick box. I mean, they saw the offer either way. But when they clicked on that, while they were signing up, the next page said, as you requested, save up to 85%. So now this wasn't an interrupt anymore. In their, yeah, in their, they, they opted in to see this offer. They saw this page and they said, oh, this is, this is what I just elected to see. And now you have permission to market to me. In their mind, they actually, they're giving themselves permission to see the offer and buy and it had a 20% increase on conversion.

That's great. Yeah. And what about the folks who did not check it? Did they, did it, did it change what it said at the top?

Yeah, we simply didn't put, as per.

Your request, just said yes. It was before. That's great. Anybody who's read Robert Cialdini's book Influence will understand that's the principle of commitment and consistency. Because you get somebody kind of going down that path saying yes, they're much more likely to say yes in the future. But that was a. You're framing up the, the upsell in a perfect way. That's where I thought you were going to go with that.

Yeah. People tend to stay consistent with their initial commitments no matter how small those commitments are. And that's why all these things that we're seeing with lead boxes that like LeadPages does, where people call it a two step opt in, you're no longer seeing the name and email address on a form. When people are asking for something, you're, you're seeing a big red button that says download free PDF. So all that does is get a commitment. And once that buyer commits, a lightbox opens up and says where should we send it? And now the person is only staying consistent with what they just committed to. And people are much more likely to just go click something that says download free report, then fill out a form. And today, gosh, man, I see, I see people that on their opt in forms which are okay to have it on your page, but I'd still recommend going to the two step opt in. They ask for first name, last name, email address, and sometimes even address and phone number to give something away for free. We stopped asking for name years ago. I mean, if you look at anything Andy and I have done in the last year and a half, we have not once ever asked anybody for their name, not unless they buy. So all of our emails start with hey, you know, because we've tested name and email decreases conversions over asking for just name. Just Email.

Yeah, exactly. And the people who are the biggest perpetrators of that, like you said, they, you know, they'll go to a white paper or something. You see this all the time. Like, oh, here I get this white paper on xyz. Or sign up for this demo and they ask you for everything. I mean, mother's maiden name, basically. And it's always, it seems to me it's always the biggest companies, like the, you know, the Fortune 500 companies out there. I'll run across them all the time, but sometimes they'll do an AdWords ad to something. They're giving it away and they're asking for the moon. And these are huge companies. They should know better for the sale.

Too easy, too quickly. Even when they're not asking for the credit card. It makes you feel like, oh, this is part of a buying process. This is work. And it shouldn't be. It should just be download. In fact, I think you showed me the best.

The best.

Basically, breadcrumb trail of a commitment and consistency of anything I've ever seen.

What was that?

It was the one where you sign up with Google the other day. What's the name of that company?

Prime Loop.

What is it?

Prime Loop.

Yeah, Prime Loop. So, yeah, guys, after you're done listening to this podcast here, go to primeloop.com really, the only thing you can do is one call to action on the page. And the way they walk you through the signup process, Brad and I thought that was like the neatest, friendliest way to make you want to do business with a company, as you are also giving them your information.

Yeah, it's so cool. And not to divert too much, but you can sign up for free. And it's, you know, if you do any retargeting, it's a perfect, really, really cool strategy. I'm actually going to try to get the CEO on the show because I just, I love what they're doing. But even at the very end, when you're all done, they have a drawing of a hand and it says, place your hand against the screen and feel the high five. Yeah, just little stuff like that. So I love that. But a couple things I wanted to bring up. So first of all, I want to ask you if you're still using the PayPal strategy that we talked about. So I want to go into that, and I'll just kind of frame this up for the way I want. I really love the rest of this conversation to go. But I want to talk about that. I want to talk about anything else that you have not yet divulged to me private that you're willing to divulge here. That's kind of. That's really working. What are your favorite techniques, strategies, tactics? Anything that's just really sizzling hot that you'd like to share that people can do? Because you really always are on the cutting edge of stuff. You see what works. You test it for yourself. You talk to a lot of people. I want to do that. And then I also want to talk about any opportunities that you see out there that maybe aren't being exploited as much or that you see, you know, the trends moving forward. Like, man, I really think this is where the puck is going. But let's talk about the PayPal strategy, because you and I have both had some really good experience with this, and for anybody marketing online right now, this is a strategy they could be using. We all could have been using this for years, and almost no marketers that I know have been. And I saw you guys, you and Andy doing it for the first time on your launch, I don't know, six months ago.

Yeah. And this is not a shameless plug. This is a place where they can see it demonstrated. If they go to traffic genesis.com, there'll be a big red button under the video. They can click that at any time and then see the order page, and it'll actually show this exact strategy.

They can also buy traffic genesis.com yes, they can.

I recommend that if they have a product that they're looking to sell and they want more traffic, I highly recommend it. So, basically, PayPal has something called Build Me Later. Now we got to understand just a couple of things about it.

And they just changed the name, didn't they, to PayPal credit?

I believe so, yeah. Now I got to get back and change my images. So Build Me later was a private company years ago. PayPal bought them out. And, you know, they're not very good marketers. A lot of these companies are just so big for different reasons that they don't know how to market some of their other products. In fact, I think we're proof of that that we showed if they would teach their vendors how to use it, they could do, well, so much better with it. They try to do when the people are checking out with a little line that says, would you like, bill me later? And a little bit more needs to go into that. So let's first talk about some of the caveats ahead of time. Number one, it only works for US customers. Number two, people have to qualify for the credit. And number three, it doesn't work on any, any type of subscription or payment plan. Okay. It only works on a one time payment purchase. So if you are going to do three payments of 399, it's not going to work on that. And if the customer lives in Canada or UK or Australia, not going to work. And if they don't qualify because of their credit, it's not going to work. But they're pretty aggressive in improving people and they will approve people up to $10,000, not the price of your product. So if Your product is 997 when they get approved, it might say something like congratulations, you've been approved $3,200. You know, which might also help in your upsell process. So all we did is when we introduced the price, we told people about this. Now here's the funny thing. When people, a lot of you know, my friends that saw this on my checkout said hey Mike, I noticed that you had a bill me later at 997, but then you had a 997 price. What was the difference in technology between the two? And basically I said the text, both.

Of them.

Goes to PayPal. One had text that explained that you could go use the bill me later option. And the other one was basically just a way for somebody to ahead of time say no, I'm not interested. When they got to PayPal, they still saw the option for bill me later but it was a pre frame process.

And you're framing them, you're letting them know. And I don't know if you just went over this or not. But for folks who don't know the bill me later the PayPal credit allows you. Like if I'm buying something for $500, I have no payments and no interest on that $500 for six months as long as I make a payment or as long as I paid in full within six months.

Going to go to traffic genesis.com and I'm actually going to read the way we, we wrote that.

Cool.

Excuse me.

And more importantly, the customer's not paying anything right now. They literally pay zero. But you as the merchant get paid immediately. Just like it's a PayPal account.

Exactly. I'm going to explain that. Just a second. I want to make sure that, yeah, that music doesn't come on. So we Basically say option one, bill me later six months, no payments and zero interest. $0. You pay nothing today with this $997 bill me later option, you get complete and full Access to traffic, Genesis today, plus all the VIP bonuses for the live event. Bonus, you pay nothing today. You have no payments and 0 interest for six months. See terms at PayPal during checkout process. And of course, the 30 day guarantees applies as well. We get paid by PayPal today and you have six months to pay it off interest free. And then it says Important note, to access the bill me later option during checkout, you may need to log into your PayPal account or create one. Here's a video that explains. So then on that page we had a little video, maybe 45 seconds that says you'll notice when you get to PayPal. Here's where you normally pay with your PayPal balance. Instead, click here, where it says bill me later. Confirm your Social Security button, hit submit, and within three seconds you'll have an answer. It was that simple. We also, Brad, put it in the sales video in the video sales letter. So we said, so here's how you can get started today. One option is, and we led with the bill me later. Unfortunately, it's for us residents only. Don't yell at us at our help desk. That's PayPal's rules, not ours. Yada yada. And then we explained that. Then we went through our normal pricing and the payment plan. And then recap later. But why not take the bill me later? So here's another question people have and you just touched on it. How do you get paid? It makes no difference to you as a seller. In fact, unfortunately, you will not even know. And PayPal does not share the data with you, who is a bill me later customer.

Right. They just say you just get deposits in your PayPal account.

That's it exactly. Basically what's happening in the background, instantly when the customer applies to that bill me later, they're given a line of credit, let's say $6,000. And it's sitting in there as a third layer. Layer number one, my PayPal balance that has $16 in it. Layer number two, my credit card. That my credit card. And now layer number three, my line of credit with zero interest and no payments for six months. So they basically, when they make a purchase, they transfer that money into their PayPal balance as real money. Yep. And then that money goes from their PayPal balance to you and you get paid real money today. Right now, if that guy doesn't make payments, it doesn't matter. This is a separate risk department. PayPal will never even come to you and be like, oh, you put too many bill me laters. No, no, no. They Want that they manage the risk by looking at your credit. And if they lose money that's in the risk. It's very similar to you going to Best Buy or you know, a furniture store. And at checkout that you say our budget was really $700, but man, I really like that living room set. But it's $3200. But we're going to live in the house forever. After seeing that, I can't not have that. Maybe we'll come back in a couple of months. And the lady says, hey, did you know that you could fill out a capital one agreement? No, we don't have no, actually believe here's how it works. All you have to fill out is these five lines of information and we get an answer in 30 seconds. And you don't even have to get a credit card or wait for anything they pay us. So you'd be able to go home with this furniture today and you have no payments and no interest for six months. Boom. It's the same type of way. I feel like buying the furniture right now.

Sold myself.

You know, that's what you can do with your customers at checkout and what you should do with your customers at checkout. Even for 47 and $97 products.

Right. Well, for the $47 you can't do bill me later.

I think, yeah, you're right.

It was $99.99 single payment only. But so here's what I think is, well, first of all the results on this. Because I remember us texting back and forth when I was like, dude, how is that going? Because this was new for you. You said normally you would offer the full price at about $997 and then three payments of 377. 377. And explain the results that you got on that.

Because I had very normally 30% of the people pay in full and 70% of the people will pay the payment plan. In this case, we had 65% of the people pay in full. So we had more than double of the people paying full. So it was not only increasing conversions. We can only assume. Yeah. Because you can get the product for free today. Yeah. And not pay any payments or interest for six months. It has to increase conversions. But we were getting more money up front. And here's the thing, our pay in full refunds were drastically lower than our than our multi pay plans. Now we don't know which one of those were billing me later or not. Because we don't know. We only know that our Pay in full refunds in proportion to our payment plan. Refunds are normally the same. In this case, they were half right.

And the bottom line for this is that if you're, if you're using PayPal right now, you don't have to do anything technically, you know, advanced in order to implement this. All you, all you simply did. You were giving them the ability to purchase with PayPal anyway. You just brought attention to it. You just said, hey, guys, by the way, PayPal doesn't do a good job of explaining how great this is for you. Let me explain it for them.

And I didn't invent it and I didn't even pioneer it. I might have been a tipping point as we're going out and talking to more people about it. I simply heard from Russell Brunson that told me that, hey, dude, here's something I'm going to test. I heard about this girl that was doing a webinar and her conversions were horrible. Like she did a webinar and sold one. And then she basically just pitched to bill me later and she had a 15% conversion for her thousand dollar product. And I was like, same questions. Yeah, but like, what do I have to do? Like in my technology? And then like when I researched it, I was like, I simply just have to tell people that it's there, that the button is there and explain to them what it means. That it really means. Yes, you get full access today. You don't have to pay anything today. I get paid today. And you don't have to pay anything for six months. And you don't get charged any interest as long as you pay it off in six months.

Right.

That's the interest goes back to day one on six months in a day. But that's why we use special wording and we're not fooling anybody. It's six months, no payments, zero interest. Just pay, you know, see Pay. And then PayPal forces them to check all those terms of service when they're there. We just don't want to contradict that right now.

So we're out. Where, you know, you can take this. If you're listening to this and you're not selling information products online, you're not selling products online, you're not selling anything over $100. But maybe you're in the service business. This is what I thought was really cool as well. So if you're selling a service, maybe you do keeping in the marketing side. Maybe you're an agency, maybe you do SEO for people or pay per click management or you are a personal trainer selling packages of things, it really doesn't matter as long as if you take payments with PayPal now or you decide to, you could sell a package deal instead of a monthly or whatever and just let people know. Listen, you can, you want to defer the payments on this? Why don't we pay with PayPal? Simply use it like this and you can increase your business that way. I've always thought that was really amazing for anybody who does coaching.

Coaching. Call centers.

Call centers.

We knew some people, I think you were trying it as well, having the call center let the customer know that they could go see if they're approved and then send you guys a PayPal trip.

Walk right through with them.

While on the phone?

Yeah, while they're on the phone, just say, yeah, listen, just click that button and then go through the process. They're doing it on PayPal. Oh my God, you're approved. That's fantastic. And I mean there's just so much that can be done with that. That is really about as bacon wrapped as it gets.

Thanks, man.

And I remember when you discussed that at the Mastermind this summer, I was like, dude, we have to do this podcast on this and share it. And it's been, we, we keep on putting it off, but I'm glad we got to that. What else, if anything, do you have another. So here's who I want to address because we are primarily online digital marketers and I asked you the other night who your typical client is who buys your information products and you said these are experts and people who have information to share with the world. Obviously you get a wide swath of this, but the, you know, the sweet spot for you are people who, they're selling their expertise, right?

Yeah. Not money motivated money. They understand money is a byproduct of the value.

More mission motivated. Right?

Yeah. You know, I sort of use this, maybe it's overly, overly strong. But I say it because I met somebody at a seminar that did this and so I'm gonna put on my over 40 glasses. I'm trying to stay as good as I can, but you're just getting so blurry and I'm getting such a headache. So I'll be a little reflection on there, but I have to, I apologize.

That's all good.

So basically the customer that we serve is a typical customer that would be be at an event and you say, what do you do? And like they hold up their book and they say, you know, I have a book on, you know, what the types of foods that you can eat that can stop you from getting cancer. And you say something like, well, nobody can stop. And then they're like, no, seriously, it's about the body getting acidic and it's the foods that you eat and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's really, really important to me because I'm only selling about $300 a month, and I want to get the word out there because I had a family member that died because they didn't eat right. And it led me to research all this. And she could have been saved had she had the information in my book. And I don't want anyone to ever lose their family member, mom, dad, sister, brother, or kid when this information is out there. So I need you to help me get this information out there. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. So that's our avatar. It's a customer like that that feels that they have a message to share with the world. And their message is great, but their marketing is not as good as their message. And we want to show them that their marketing can be as good as their message. We tend to stay away from the customer that asks a question like, Brad, if you were going to start all over, what's the fastest way do you think a guy can get started to make money online? Because they're not asking the right question. You and I know that. The question is, what value do I provide? What is my expertise in the world? And. And understanding that our income, it's a formula. It's directly proportional to these two things. The number of people that we serve multiplied by the value that we provide. That's it. How much value we're providing and how many people are we reaching. And with the Internet, we could reach people outside our local community like never before.

I remember when I first started my very first info product, My first two sales, one was from France, the other one was from the Netherlands. So my first sales, I was like multinational. I was global, baby. And it. That always. That always was thrilling. And there's so many opportunities out there for people.

So what was it a product on marijuana? I'm just curious if Netherlands. They were so interested in it.

Yeah, it should have been. It was magic tricks, of all things.

Oh, that's right. Oh, yeah, you told me about those.

Yeah. And it's kind of funny. Yeah, I was, I was. I never felt like I was an expert in anything, but I knew how to do little cheesy bar tricks. And I figured, well, I'm going to use this as a marketing Laboratory and figure out if I can show guys how to use bar tricks to break the ice at bars and have fun with it. And lo and behold, yeah, there's a guy named Sebastian Rotier I'll never forget.

Yeah, you never. I always told first customer. I remember the first person I sold a car to.

Really?

I don't even remember anything about the second customer. I remember my first customer that bought my product online. We never remember the second. And that's a whole other walk down, you know, why we remember things, but it usually has to do with the amount of adrenaline that's going through our body creates such a tattoo on our brains. And that's why the first is so important. That's why people put the first dollars up at the pizza place and the bagel stores.

That's right. That was my first. So let's say you've got a. Let's say that I'm somebody who. I've got an information product. I've got it out there and I'm frustrated because I put my heart and soul into this. Whether it's maybe it's a book and maybe it's a video series. And I've, you know, I've kind of went through the tutorials. I put something together and I'm proud of it and it's valuable. But I'm frustrated because I'm toying with, you know, I'm balancing that. I can't really buy profitable traffic until I get my conversion up, you know, but I can't get my conversion up without testing it with traffic. And it's that double edged sword. And a lot of the people, whether they're coaching, students of mine or, or friends, and I've even dealt with it in the past. Chicken and the egg. I can't get conversion unless I drag traffic. But I'll go broke, drive in traffic until my conversion is high. What do you tell people who are facing those situations? They got a good product, they just don't know exactly. First thing they should do to really dial that in. Is there an easy answer or is it just little by little, test by test?

I wish there was an easy answer. And in some cases I can tell you that you can go out there and you can hire somebody to do your copywriting and hire somebody to do your funnels for you. The second one, getting people to do your funnels for you is more difficult and it gets more difficult as time goes on because those people aren't available there for you to continue to do that. And you might have to hire Somebody else and there's not. They're not as good as. Or you may pay for something and it didn't convert.

Right.

And the second product problem, second issue, going back to the first thing about hiring a copywriter is that I believe what makes a good copywriter good is somebody with good marketing skills that can explain it to the copywriter. Because I've seen a lot of times good copywriters not be able to convert people's products because they don't know how to explain the product. I find some great copywriters and great marketers simply hire another copywriter because they don't have the time to do the copy, but they have enough information to tell the copywriter what to do. So this is where the bad news comes from. And this is my perspective. I think at the end of the day, we may call ourselves a guy that is going to teach people how to meet people at bars and meet women at bars with magic tricks. At the end of the day, we may think that we're an author that wrote a book on how to cure cancer, or we're a software developer, or we're in the health niche or in the finance niche. But I disagree. I think the first hat that we have to wear is being a marketer.

Right?

I think we, we. If you're passionate about it, even better. But you must become a student of it. You must read those books like Predictably Irrational. Read a copywriting book, take a copywriting course, start understanding what the numbers mean in conversions. Because I think when you understand that there's a formula and a template to selling something and once you learn that skill, you can just fill in the blanks every single time. You shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel again or not understand the purpose of a headline. You know, if we ask 10 different people what the purpose of a headline, and in marketing, we should get the same answers ten times, but we don't. And so for me, my thing is become a student of what makes people buy. And going back to where we started, human beings were nothing but organic matter, carbon based life forms that respond to stimuli. And the same way, you know, cats will hiss under the same circumstances and dogs will bark. People there certain things that. Yeah. Certain things that people will do under certain stimuli. And I'm saying this obviously in the sense of we do this for the good, right? Because we see it happen in politics. You know, all these studies and they go to the people in politics and the president, they say, you know, the polls are saying this and they use that Data to manipulate people. And everybody's going to their back of their mind is always going to say it's for a greater good. But I believe when you're helping people with cancer or helping people in relationships, for the most part, if you know deep down in your heart you put a lot of work into your product and it's going to serve a better value for the people than the amount of money that they're going to pay for it, then you need to do everything in your job to convince those people. And I don't call it manipulation, I don't call it using tactics and trainings, but I call it giving people all the information they need to make an informed decision. And when you know how to craft your words and position and frame and make those things better, everything is easy. You really can't fail. And that's why guys like you and me have been able to have product hit after product hit after product hit. Sometimes those things are unconsciously competent to us. Yeah, you know, we. They come, as they say, second nature. And it's even difficult sometimes for us to, you know, go back and say, you know, I don't know why that worked. I'd like to deconstruct my brain, find out why I was in such a zone that day that made that sales letter convert better than some of my others. But at the end of the day, there is a formula to telling a message online. Guys like John Benson, I think, have really good products that teach how to.

Break it down into that formulaic thing.

Exactly.

You know, when it comes to copywriting, I struggled with this for years because I consider myself a really good copywriter. But like a lot of copywriters, I've got a love hate relationship with it. Like it's blank paper. Stare at it. Especially if I have to sell my own product, it's the last thing I want to do. It's like giving birth. It hurts, it's painful. I can improve anybody else's copy, and I love that. Like, if you give me your copy, say, hey, Brett, Andy, and I work, right? Tell me how to improve this. And I forget who told me this several years ago, but when I started applying it to the copy process, and actually it can apply to a lot of processes, things got a lot easier. And so a lot of people have heard of the 80, 20 rule, right. You know, what's the 20% that gets 80% of the results? But so this is the same thing, but it's the 10, 80, 10 rule. Have we ever talked about this or have you heard.

I heard you say it.

Yeah, yeah. 10, 80. 10. So. Especially when it applies to copy. I'm going to do the first 10%. I'm going to outline. All right, here's what we're selling. Here's the hook or the general story that I want to tell. And here are the benefits, and here what it does for you and the offer. I don't have to worry about scripting the whole thing out. I don't have to make it flow. I don't have to make it the flowery language and use NLP and do anything like that. I come up with this skeleton. Now, I can hire a copywriter and say, look, number one, you're not starting with a blank page, but fill in the other 80%, because the copywriter doesn't.

Know anything about health or finances or forex or a flower shop. You know, he doesn't. But he knows how to make something. You know, give him the ice. He'll find the. You know, the sculpture underneath of it. You got to give him the block of ice. Bingo.

And then that final 10% is yours. Now you get to go in and polish it. And by letting somebody else do the other 80%, it puts you in the position of, I'm critiquing and improving your copy, not mine. Because I can't tell you how many times I've written. Like, I've just gotten in the zone, and I've been sitting there typing, and I've come up with what I think is great, and then I read it the next day, and I just delete the whole file because I'm like, oh.

Yeah, that's a horrible feeling. And don't worry. Andy wrote five. Five sales letters for Traffic Genesis before we got. Yeah. Before we got to it. And. And that's him or me being harsh. In fact, you know, he just wrote a. He just wrote a letter the other day. We're doing a short letter for Video Genesis. And, you know, I told him. He said, mike, please do me a favor. Go and do a second pass. And his exact words to me the next day were, jesus, Lord Jesus effing Christ, and all that. And I was like, what? I don't know if he was. He was like, my God, Mike, this is brilliant. I just kept trying to say I was the 80 guy in this scenario. I was like. I just went in and polished, and he goes, why do you think that is, Mike? Why do you think when you do it, I can do this for you? And you do it, and you could do it for Me. And there's two things that happen. Number one, when you're writing copy. And every single person listening that's ever written something or tried to write a to do list or brainstorm or do a mind map. And Brad, I know this has happened to you. You're starting to write, and you know that three paragraphs ahead of what you.

Want to say, right.

Sometimes it's so important you have to stop and go write it and leave it there. And then go back. And then you get into that. What was that thing I wanted to say about what happens with the Build me later? I knew I should have wrote it down then. So now you have this fear that this is happening. So your copy is sort of a brain dump, and you're putting all this stuff out of your head. And that's why you delete it the next day, because it doesn't have that structure. And what happens is it gets exhausting. Like, to go back and write, write a P.S. sometimes takes three days. It's like, I know I don't want to look at that page again. Can I just call it done? But you look at it and you know it's not done. And that's why, like, for me, or vice versa, anybody that can go in and it can easily say, I see what he wrote here.

Yeah.

What he's trying to say is this. You know. You know, you run on. And your sentences run on, comma, comma, comma, comma, you know, this one long paragraph. So I think that's what it is. And there's something called in copywriting, jumping on the table. And what that means is you and I right now are in the middle having a conversation. Imagine I just jumped on this table and I started talking about something else. And here's what Video Genesis can do. It's like whether or not you were finished with that last paragraph. We don't talk to each other like that. So what that means is that every single time we look at one paragraph to another, we can never jump on the table. We have to assume that we're having a conversation with a person. So almost imagine that you are reading that and talking to somebody. And what you start realizing is that those transitions start having things where you go. So you may be wondering why I said that. Well, let me explain. And this is what I basically told Andy. I. I wanna go in and I wanna romance the transition. And he says, oh, I love that. But that's what copy sometimes is missing, is that romance. And the transitions, it just suddenly says, so here's what you get, it's like I wouldn't talk to you about that. I would say something more along the lines of, so you can see why I'm so confident in not only what it's done for me, but in what it's done for my customers. So if you'll please let me explain to you what you're gonna get in videogenis.

Yeah, it's more authentic, it's more conversational, the way you would really talk to, you know, somebody in person. It was funny. I was listening. You know who Porter Stansberry is?

Oh yeah.

So Porter, if, for those of you who don't know, runs one of the largest financial newsletters and you know, it's a nine figure, eight figure business probably, I think a nine figure business. And he's one of the best copywriters out there. And he was speaking about the first letter he ever wrote back in the 90s. It was the railroad letter which kind of set his business on fire. And the railroad letter simply means that was the hook that he was using. And he sat down across the table from Michael Masterson, his, his mentor at the time, who's also a copywriting and you know, direct marketing legend. And he said, I wrote 18 versions of this, of this letter. 18 and almost totally separate. Like not just 18 little bitty revisions. 18 versions. He goes. Every single one. We'd sit, I'd sit down with Michael and we'd take turns we reading a paragraph to each other and simply saying, is it the you. You're familiar with the cub method. Is it confusing? Is it uninteresting or is it boring? And then just marking them off, marking them off, confusing, uninteresting or boring. But it kind of does show you the amount of effort that can go into writing one of these things that, and you know, the degree of detail that goes into every single sentence.

Yeah. They have a great book called Copy Logic. And I found myself making the mistakes of one of the things they, that they said in there is like, like I can say something that is three times more expensive but like they have a problem hearing something is three times less the price. Yeah. You know, and they, you know, so, and, and I noticed that I would write that a lot. Like, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I'm going to show you how you can get it for three times less. And they were like, you can't multiply something and get.

Because that, you're saying that that doesn't Register with people's head.

Yeah. So they would just say one. They would say just change it to one third the price or, you know, or something. Something a lot. One tenth the price. That type of stuff. Rather than saying ten times less. Because the mind might just see something different and just confuse them. Like.

And they may think it's three times more. It may subconsciously implant.

Right. If they're skimming. Yeah.

Right. Absolutely. So what do you think is. What's at least one. Maybe more, but one opportunity out there that you think people we all could be exploiting and maybe aren't? Do you see any kind of trends that are going forward that like, oh man, this is hot. That you don't mind giving up?

I don't have any secrets right now that I haven't. That I haven't shared. Not just on this call, but with everything. I haven't been holding back. Andy and I tend to share everything. Everything we have.

Right.

Because we, we. We believe that there's just too much opportunity on the Internet. But certainly. So I'll tell you where I think things are going and what I like seeing with companies like Stripe and Braintree.

And PayPal, all these payment processors for those who don't know. Yeah.

Apple Pay and Google Wallet. I would definitely tell people to pay attention to that and make sure that they've got an ear down close to the ground floor and keeping an eye on updates with their infusion softs and office autopilots and their shopping carts. Because in my. My opinion, I know people do very well with app businesses and I know content and videos get watched very highly on mobile devices.

Right.

We're seeing more purchases happen on iPads, but not quite as much as they should be for the amount of content that's being used.

And it's because of the lack of ease of payment. Nobody wants to pull their credit card. And it's.

I'll just say I'll wait till I get home. But I do make purchases all day long for one click. You know, remove ads. Just bought a cool app the other day. Remove ads. I don't even know why I did it. Just because they gave me an option. It was 99 cents and they didn't make it hard for me.

I clicked. It was. It was in like a mobile app.

Yeah. When a mobile app. And all I had to do is click Apple's button to do it.

Yep. The ease of purchasing sent me a.

Free box of chocolate every month for 10 years. And let's assume I love chocolate. I still wouldn't have done it. If I had to fill out a form, I just wouldn't. I think the pain of filling out forms is tough and I think we're getting beyond that. I think that's Brad. I think that's a year away from every merchant account starting to find a way that's going to be working with Google Wallet, Apple Pay. You know, PayPal is going to compete and I believe that they're going to give us the ability to API a button that's tied into a pre made account without having to log in. The way Apple's doing. Apple Pay. The way you can go up and you can scan something at the register, I think that's going to be great for commerce because people will be on their iPhones and their Android devices and their iPads and they'll see something and they know that they can one click to something that's hard coded into their device. Like Facebook Connect is now into their iPhones. That will be a beautiful day for us. And I think the people that are ready to exploit that the fastest, everybody will eventually catch on. But I think that's something that you know, I want to make sure my, my add to cart buttons don't, don't stay unchanged for three years. You know that's going to be one of the first things I'm going to change.

Right? I agree. I mean one of the, it's probably not too long from now we'll be having another conversation saying hey, remember when you had to pull out your credit card to, to buy something online or you had to fill in that data. It wasn't just a thumbprint, it wasn't a retinal scan, it wasn't, you know, take a picture of this or just you know, hit Siri and say yes, I confirm. Bye.

Yeah, yeah, things like that.

Well that's great. And that's exactly what I, you know what I was hoping to get is something like that. Like those are definitely some opportunities that we're on the cusp. The technology is there. We can do this now between Amazon, between Apple Clickbank, between, you know there's a, there's a, another company I just came across called, I met one of the guys at Pay a T P.

A Y. I haven't heard of them. I gotta check them out.

Yeah, so what they allow you to do is all via email. So let's say somebody purchases something from you once and it could be a dollar. Right. So now it's kind of on file and by the way they integrate with everybody's current Merchant account. They integrate with everybody else. So now what will happen is you'll send me an email. And in that email it says, hey, Brad, we've got a special on this. You know, you can get this new T shirt. We've got whatever for $10. We have all the information we need. Simply press this link in your button in the email and you know, in order to purchase it. So you click that and if you're on mobile, what it does is it queues up a new email to atpay the subject line of what you're purchasing and then it says, we have all the information we need from your prior history. Simply click send and you will complete your purchase for $10.

That's incredible. There's another company, Braintree is doing that. Braintree is the company that also owns Venmo, which is like the competitor to PayPal, payments through Twitter type of stuff. But they have, if you go to their site and see their parent company, they've got three awesome technologies that some are for fraud detection, but others are for these easy payments going through checkout. It's coming. Those days are coming. That's great. I did think of one thing real quick. It's no secret, but it's something I think the new the way Facebook has been talking about marketing over the last two years, I think what you're going to now see is people talking about YouTube advertising. Marketers have been the last people to get on YouTube. I see maybe three marketers. I know that. I've actually seen ads where I see a thousand marketers I know on Facebook and I've learned some pretty interesting stuff on YouTube advertising that it's pay per click, not pay per impression. No, I'm sorry, it's pay per impression, not pay per click on the ad. And the impression only goes on. So let's say you have a video that's a minute, 30 seconds long. You don't pay for that video until it after it hits the one minute mark. So you could do all this branding, even get a click to your website. And if they click and the video stops, if they don't go through a certain point in the video, you don't pay. So it's possible to get more clicks than even impressions. And there's a great guy people can look up if they just Google him. His name is Tommy Powers. It's spelled T O M M I E. And this guy spoke at my event and made me just feel like an idiot for not advertising on YouTube.

Yeah, you're right. That is one of those Areas that a lot of marketers that I know are underutilized. And it seems like the only advertisements I see these days. And it's so funny. I'm watching a YouTube video, and then you see this is like a Fortune 500 Main street advertising commercial that all they're doing is repurposing their TV ad, and. And they're sticking it on YouTube. And it's not addressing the state of mind that I'm in. I'm waiting. I'm sitting there waiting for the skip ad. Like, hurry up. This doesn't get. Grabbed my attention at all. It doesn't.

Ryan's for traffic and conversion.

No, I haven't seen it.

Has it Go to his side. Just go to a site and then he'll start retargeting you, and you'll not be able to watch a YouTube video without him. He's got four of them.

Nice.

One of them. That's really cool. Is the first one goes, hey, wait, it's Ryan. Dice, I know you're getting ready to hit that skip ad button, but let me just tell you something. So, like, he addresses that. I don't know if it's a service or not, but I think it's interesting.

That's exactly what I was talking to somebody else recently about. Like, this is how I would do it. And I have it running.

Yeah, you're interrupting their video. So address that fact. Right. Hey, wait. I know you want to get to your video, so give me just a couple of seconds before you hit that skip ad video. And then he's got another one that says this. It's great. And he's branding the event without having to pay for it because his ad is a minute is over a minute. So he doesn't pay for the ad. So basically it just. He just lets it run. And this is what it does. It goes. Are you interested in getting more customers? The latest in traffic and social media. Would you like to learn how to do better video marketing? All these different things, Right? He says, if that's for you, then click this video now. If not, then click skip ad. And then like 10 seconds with an arrow saying skip ad. And if they do that, he didn't pay, but he's advertising it in the local Southern California area. So he's branding his event. At least getting it into people's mind by the 15th time they're doing it. He didn't have to pay for the 14 other times to get it in their head.

That's crazy cool. I could do that with bacon wrap. Business, right? I could.

Yeah. So I'll give you an example of, like, what I could do with. With Webinar Jam. I could go in and I could say, how many videos are there with gotowebinar in the title, the description, or the meta tags? And it turns out there's 110,000.

Oh, dude, I see where you're going.

So now every single time somebody's looking for a GoToWebinar review, GoToWebinar instructions, I can cater a video for that. So how do you use GoToWebinar? It's like, boom. Are you looking to use GoToWebinar? Do you realize GoToWebinar's technology is old and outdated? In fact, you're paying $499 a month, and you can only get a thousand people on. What if there was a better, less complicated way? Right? And it's just, you know, and I say, webber, even if they click. I didn't pay for that ad. But I'm getting in their head, and I'm getting in their head, and one day when they're like, you know, this is ridiculous. What was that company? Webinar Jam. I heard that competes. And even if I do pay for it, it's great. I'm going to every single person that's either thinking about buying them or is using them. And I can tell them they're paying too much and not getting enough. And I can take their customers away from even free training videos GoToWebinar may have put out there.

That's hilarious. Oh, so you're trying to get trained on GoToWebinar? Cause it's very confusing.

You know why we don't have training videos? Because our product is so easy.

That's awesome.

It's right out of the box.

I was also thinking it'd be funny to do, like, you know, your video comes up, like. Let's just say you're advertising Webinar Jam. I don't know. You've got cats. Just put the camera on your cats for a second, like, doing some cute stuff. Because a lot of people go to YouTube for cat videos or just different stuff. And, you know, then you pop in, hey, listen, I know you're waiting for that other video. I thought I'd show you these cute little cats while I tell you about Webinar Jam. They may have been watching cat videos as it is. But just understanding why people are on YouTube, what kind of stuff are they going for? So, Tommy. And you know what? So I did. I was at your event, but I didn't get to be at the entire thing. But. So Tommy is your. He's your go to YouTube advertising expert, right? Yeah, dude, I would love an introduction and love to interview him on the show. Oh, yeah. Such a cool topic that, I mean, I know I'd like to know about.

As well now because I always promise these things and then I always forget. Tommy, I know where you live. Brad Costanza.

Nice.

Hey, guys, you should meet.

There you go.

Brad Costenzo, this is Tommy. Sorry, guys, that you got to watch me do this, but I don't think that that's great.

And I just got. And I just got the text from you.

This is Brad. All right, I'll let you guys take it from there. Done deal.

That's cool. So two of the. Two of the cool things that you've got going on, because this is where I want to start letting people understand some more of the resources that you provide them. This is kind of like the plug mic part. But I want to do this in a way that like, this is really heartfelt because you come bringing not only the knowledge, but the tools. So like, yes, if you're using webinars or thought about doing it. GoToWebinars expensive webinarjam uses Google Hangouts. That's an incredible way to just start hosting your own events. Like, give me an example of. For somebody who is trying to start to build a brand, trying to get their message out there, talk to individuals in their marketplace and give them. Give them good content without being highly tech savvy, without having to spend a bunch, how can they use webinar Jam as just one example? Tell me about somebody who's used it and grown their brand with it.

Yeah, well, first, thanks for letting us talk about it. You know, Webinar Jam came because it needed to solve a problem. And a lot of the software that I did usually solved a problem in my business. And we were going to be doing what we call bossathons for Video Genesis. And we had 6,000 people register, and that may sound like crazy, but when you're in the height of a launch and you've got every affiliate registering, plus the 70,000 leads that our affiliates sent us during the pre launch, we're inviting to a webinar and they're highly engaged. So let's say only 5% of those people registered. We had 3,000 just from there and then all the other folks. Now we had a problem. We're going to have 6,000 people register for a technology that the max they give you is 1000 people. So great. Everybody at that point was saying, why don't you guys do a Google hangout?

Yeah.

Now, we didn't know much about hangouts and you know, everybody does always that stupid thing where they try to invite everybody to be a tile underneath the video. You know, you don't quite understand, like, oh, what's the difference between the guy that's in it and the people that are watching? You know, so you can figure that out in an hour. But the problem that we had was we can do the hangout but we can't push an add to cart button. There was no chat, we didn't have a registration page to get the people to register. After they registered, where would they see, would they watch it on YouTube or did we have to get a separate page for them? Alright, so after we get a separate page number one, where are they registering to? And do I actually have to go in and manually send reminders? It starts in 15 minutes. It's starting now. There was no front end marketing machine for hangouts and I saw an awesome opportunity to basically disrupt GoToWebinar. We could do something for $297 a year that they're charging 6,000 a year. We can have unlimited people and we call it the Obama phenomenon. You know, President Obama, Arianna Huffington and Oprah have not been able to break it. So pretty sure you'll have. It's powered by Google. They can serve the world. So when we say unlimited people, we basically mean everybody on the planet can attend. We also have better marketing landing pages. The GoToWebinar pages are embarrassing.

Have you seen? They literally just revamped their entire site like in the past week. Do you have a go to account?

Yes, yes.

You should log in at some point. Now the inside looks better, but they give you one new login registration page. It is so bad on so many levels what they do. It's mind boggling. Like anyway, that's. This happened this week. So yeah, blown away.

So all we've got to do is.

And by the way, if GoToWebinar wants to sponsor bacon wrap business, I take that back completely.

Do they really?

No, I said if they do, if they want to. I'll edit this out.

Yeah, I'll become your official sponsor. You know, kind of like Corn Nuts does for the ufc. They probably regret that every day. Like what? Why did we give it to them? Just because they pay more than anything. So yeah. So the bottom line is GoToWebinar was a good solution for its time, but it's, it's, it really is old out, outdated. We call it horse and buggy technology in a Ferrari age. And Google Hangouts is great if you want to get people on, but if you're a marketer, it's not going to work. You can't push buttons, you can't do chat, you can't ban people all the things that you would want in a perfect solution. So we took the two solutions and we jammed them together and created Webinar Jam. And I can say this, if I didn't even own the company. You're a fool to be using GoToWebinar Windows Webinar Jam. It will out convert landing page visitor to the site to the dollar and the shopping cart by the end of the campaign. Better than GoToWebinar and it's more affordable.

Can't ask for much more than that. So now that's one of your flagship products. Obviously you've got your training I've talked about, you've got how to use video in your marketing with Video Genesis, you've got Traffic Genesis and you're coming out very soon with Conversion Genesis. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to put a link so people can come get information on this if they want to follow you, if they want to get on your newsletter, which I highly recommend, by the way, what you guys have been doing with your newsletter lately. I know Laura is writing some of the stuff from Traffic Genesis and you probably are. I can always tell Andy's work. I think you guys send those out. Your free newsletter, dude, is more valuable than most people's paid newsletters. They're so jam packed with actionable stuff. And like you said, you and Andy Jenkins, who's your partner, don't seem like you pull any punches. You give a lot of secrets away for free.

Yeah, we enjoy giving content and we think that's why we have a lot of raving fans.

Right.

You know, we do argue about it and I don't mean that we have different opinions about it. We question ourselves, I should say we sit down sometimes and we say, are we giving away too much information? Even like when we give a freemium, some people just give a downloadable report and immediately get them to the upsell or the offer. We give a 29 minute training video and it could be affecting our conversions, but people love us. So we actually do start saying, you know, are we treating our free content as if they paid for it? There may not be anything wrong with it, but it does beg the question, right? Well.

And you have to be careful because as A marketer who is there to, you know, you make your living by selling your intellectual property. It's like, are you quenching people's thirsts before they have a chance to buy? You know, if somebody's starving in the desert and you give them, you know, one of these portable water tanks that they, you know, drive around with.

I'll tell you though, what's interesting is we tested it, right? Yeah, we, we had, we had something that said there are five laws to a successful webinar. No, actually we tell them that after they opt in, when they, when they come to the landing page, it said this, this one trick, whatever, this one tactic doubled our webinar registrations. And when they got to the next page, it said, hi, it's Mike Fosseim and Andy Jenkins. You know, there are five laws to a successful webinar. We're gonna go over law number one, the law of your registration page. And we went through the training and at the end we said, now that was just one of five laws. If you want to get the other four laws, click below this video and you can learn about the other four laws. Four laws. And the other four laws was just a seven dollar trip wire. They had to watch a 30 minute training video on law number one. So then what we did is we said, you know what, we're going to give them the freemium. And then the page that makes the promise. And then the very next page said, hi, this is Mike Falsaim and Andy Jenkins. We just sent you a video about the first law of successful registrations. Check your email in 20 minutes. We want to let you know that there are four others. So we immediately went to the sale and we actually saw a slightly lower increase in the sale of that tripwire, even though it was only $7, even though so many more people saw it. Our other one, we had a lot of bounce rate. People don't watch 29 minute videos. But for damn, hell, the people that saw that video, they said to themselves, this shit was so good, I gotta get money, gotta learn the other four. And then they saw that it was only $7. It was $7 tripwire. And that conversion rate, Brad, I'm telling you, not even kidding, was something like 26% of the people that eventually made it to that page, even though we were losing about 50% of the people.

Wow.

So its overall conversion was about 13% and we had about an 11% conversion if they just saw the page. So even factoring all the loss, we still had higher conversion rate. Eventually because the training was so indoctrinating.

So recapping that, like they came to the page. It was a. It was a. Like just watch the video first. No opt in. Or was it opt in to watch the first time?

It was watch. They opted in watch a training video.

And the training videos, like 30 minutes on the. The first law of a webinar. The registration page and then. And then the action. Right. This is the winning one. The. The action right after that was to do what? To go to a tripwire.

No, no, that was the losing one. Oh, yeah, to the tripwire.

Yeah. So the winning one right after they watched the 30 minute video, it did what?

Yeah, so I'll recap it real quick. So both promises were the same.

Yeah.

So the first one we did and it ended up being the winner. The first one we did was they opted in. And then we said, hey, thanks for opting in. We're gonna give you exactly what we asked for. Here's a 30 minute training on the first law of a successful webinar. It's increasing registrations. And then at the end of that, we said, if you like this, there are four more laws. Click the button below this video to find out about them. That went to a third page, which was a $7 tripwire that explained what the other four laws were. We lost a lot of people getting to that page because a lot of people bounced out of the other video, bookmarked the page, got distracted, and never made it there. But when they finally made it there, 26% of those people bought.

Because on that second page, it was another video. Or that was just.

It was just a. It was just a page, a sales letter. Seven dollar sales letter tripwire. Wow. Like Ryan Dice and Frank Kern use a lot. So we tested against that. We said, let's see what happens if we don't give them the training. So the test that failed was they opted in. They got a short video that said, hey, what you just asked for will be in your inbox in 20 minutes. By the way.

Let me tell you this.

Yeah, yeah, Let me sell you about the other four laws when you don't even know about the first law that's in your inbox. And we got to deliver the value first. That would do better because so many people were going to. Honestly, what caused that test was the breakage of the first video. Only 58% of the people that were going through that process were finally seeing the tripwire. And we were like, how can we get more people to see the tripwire? Well, you know what? Let's just show them the tripwire and tell them, watch that video later. So we got more people to see it, but they weren't indoctrinated and they didn't love us. Your training's great. And all that stuff went out the window. In fact, it turned into bait and switch. Almost like you just told me you're gonna get something and now you're selling me something. So it turns out the training did a better job.

That's cool. That's cool. I love that. So, one other thing. I want to help, you know, plug for you because. And I say this not for. For commercial reasons, though I think that's always part of it. But you've got another system called Deal Guardian, and Deal Guardian is a. So if you, as the listener, are selling anything online, information, products or whatever, and you've been frustrated with, whether it's with ClickBank or PayPal or doing it on your own, setting up. God forbid you use infusionsoft or set up some stuff that is highly complicated and the tech side is a pain, go to dealguardian.com I mean, DealGuardian is a better clickbank.

If they've heard of JVZoo, it's very similar to that. The difference is we do all the processing like clickbank, but we also do adaptive payments, which means you and your affiliate can get paid instantly if the customer pays with PayPal and you choose to take that option.

And just internally, when we were over at, like on that exact computer you're talking on now.

Exactly.

Going through, you know, you mean, Larry, were going through some of the different developments. I mean, it is really intuitive and cool, covers a lot of the things. And, you know, because you're a smaller company than like a clickbanker or otherwise, you can make those changes. You're marketing. You're making these changes for you because you're selling your stuff on Deal Guardian as it is.

Yeah, yeah. We. We processed $11 million.

Just in the.

Last year with Deal Guardian. Over 8 million of that was our own products. So it works for us and it's robust. And we wouldn't use it, honestly, we wouldn't use it if it didn't work for us. Right.

And you've got some major change. You don't have to go through all of them, but you've got some major.

We're going to compete with Infusionsoft in about 90 days. Yeah, we're bringing a full CRM and email marketing system and allowing people the option to bring their own merchant account or let us process so they'll have more choices. So we're going to be an easier, more affordable infusionsoft. So, infusionsoft, if anybody on your team is a bacon wrap business marketer lover, you're listening to this. Just beware what we did to Gotowebinar. We're coming.

That's right. Well, I mean, I look forward to seeing it because I know I've dealt with confusionsoft enough. And God love, by the way, they.

Want to sponsor you for your next.

Exactly. Once more, if you've got money, I will edit this out shamelessly.

I am throwing money. I'm shameless.

Exactly. Mike, this is awesome, dude. I really appreciate you being on the show here. We've done an hour.

Have you really been on an hour and a half?

Yeah.

I didn't pay attention. I just saw there was 53 minutes past the hour, and I was like. And I forgot we started late, so I thought we were on for, like, 45 minutes.

This has been awesome, though. You lived up to the show's name. You dropped some bacon rap strategies, which is what it's all about.

Puns in there, man. You like that? Should have more puns.

I do need more puns. That's hot. That's. Oh, Mike, that's so greasy. Yeah, that's so greasy. Mike, I don't think.

Grease the chutes there a little bit.

I should have the grease show. I should talk about all the scammy, unethical crap that's going on out there.

Yeah, we'll call that micro microwave strategies.

Oh, turkey bacon.

Yeah, turkey. If I'm gonna eat bacon, I want the real deal. In fact, I want to take the grease left over from yesterday's bacon that's white. I want to reheat it and deep fry my next bacon in that bacon fat. That's why I want to do bacon wrap marketing.

Dude, that's. That's genius. You're making me hungry now. Dude, I appreciate.

That'll be like a testimonial on your video page. I'll be going through your site and out of this whole interview, it'll just be me talking about how to make bacon.

How to make bacon. Mike's bacon recipe. Well, brother, I appreciate your time. This has been awesome. Every single person on here. If you're listening to the audio once more, there's a video version of this@ BaconWrappedBusiness. MikeF. It's Mike Phil. Same. But it'd be easier just to go to Mike F. For if you're listening to this, you'll get all the show notes, all the links, all the ways that you can purchase anything that Mike has to offer. I can tell you right now, he makes marketing a lot easier. You know, you're one of us and you know what we go through. You create a lot of this stuff for your own purposes. And I've enjoyed watching your rise in the past, I don't know, eight years I've been doing this. I can't believe it's been that long. But for my show listeners, I highly encourage you to get on my newsletter. Subscribe to the show on itunes if you're not. Every once in a while I get, you know, people listening to one show and they think, hey, this is great. I wish I knew how to get, you know, updated more often.

Well, there's two ways.

Number one is subscribe to the newsletter, and you can always do that on bacon wrap business, there's ample ways subscribe.

Makes you feel good. So the latest. So basically, I'm sorry to interrupt your close here. Yes, guys, subscribe. Make sure to subscribe because there's only going to be great stuff like this because I know the people that Brad knows in the industry and I know his connections, the people that he doesn't know, and they're only going to be better than me, I can promise. And I'll probably be back just to keep the bar low. But just if you were the listener as well. You hear me just say that. So there's this guy named pewdiepie.

Pewdiepie. That's who it was.

Yeah, he's on. They just did a parody on him on South Park. It's called hashtag rehash. And basically Cartman goes around rehashing other people's commentary. And so it's a whole show about that. Kids don't even play video games anymore. They just watch other people play video games. So I didn't even know about this guy called pewdiepie and all this stupid stuff he does. And then you looked him up after.

The show, didn't you?

Because I did. I looked him up and I literally said, how can he be the number one channel on YouTube besides YouTube's video channels and stuff. So. And then. Then I realized where Cartman got all of his stuff, like the fast cuts. He was like, hey, bro, make sure to subscribe. And then in the camera's like, cuz.

Subscribing makes you feel good. And then he was from Beautiful. I felt stupider. Watch. I got halfway through one of those videos. I'm like, oh my God, don't.

Don't do anything he does, please.

No lightning in a bottle.

But like fast cuts and Absolutely.

But yeah. That being said, you can also subscribe on itunes. If you're listening, hit that subscribe button because these will just be automatically sent to your phone. You can listen to this drivel as much as you want. Drivel while you drive. Ooh, that's my next podcast. Drivel while you drive giblets. Yeah. And if you have any questions for me, if you like to share your own bacon wrap strategies, if you've got a business and you'd like to understand how to potentially grow it if you're stuck, if you're plateau just getting started or you want to give me money just because you want my brain power on your business, send an email to ask bradaconwrappedbusiness.com I will read it. I also read those itunes reviews, by the way, and itunes reviews make me feel good.

So gotta do it now. I know. Damn it.

All right, well, what's funny is we've probably watched because it's about 5 o' clock here now, and my view, you.

See the difference in the lighting? Yeah.

Mine's definitely a lot darker now.

Yeah, I was gonna say that it was completely bright when you started and I've literally seen by the minute get darker behind you. And mine was so bright. Now it's normal. Now I look normal.

That's awesome. Well, I appreciate your time, Mike. Look forward to seeing you again here. I appreciate being here and everybody else, thanks for subscribing. Thanks for the feedback and go check out what Mike has to offer. I guarantee you'll make more money. Till next time. Got a problem. Wrap it in bacon. Bye. Bye. Cause bacon makes you feel good. Makes you feel good.

Making it rain with my business cards.

That's awesome. Be throwing bacon.

Take it easy, guys. Bye bye. Subscribe.