Protect Your Business As You Expand It with Peter Hoppenfeld

How do you make business problems disappear? Wrap em in bacon for business owners, marketing execs, and anyone trying to grow your business. Pump your profits and make more while doing less. Welcome to Bacon Wrapped Business with Brad Costanzo. Sizzling hot business advice guaranteed to make you fat profits. Every week, our chefs will serve you proven recipes for ramping up your revenue. Now here's your host, Brad Costanzo.

Okay. Welcome back to Bacon Wrapped Business. This is Brad Costanzo and today we are joined by Peter Hoppenfeld. Before I jump into the Peter's story and why I've asked him to be on the show today though, I want to thank all of my awesome listeners for, you know, reaching out to me for sending emails. By the way, if you don't have my email address, it is askbradakenwrappedbusiness.com and I have been getting a lot of interesting questions and challenges that a lot of people are having about really understand how to grow their business and different tactics and strategies. And it seems like everybody's looking for the one little secret sauce that makes it all work. And you know, the first thing I want to tell you is that there usually is no secret sauce. It, you know, the game is won by fundamentals. And that's one of the things that it oftentimes get lost in this, in this show because I like talking about the sizzling hot business ideas that kind of the tactics and strategies that are really hot and fun. But at the end of the day, it's really, it's really the fundamentals and strategy that, you know that wins the games. So that said, if you are interested in ever booking a call with me to see what your strategy is to get a second opinion on what may or may not be working, you can simply reach out to ask bradakenratbusiness.com let me know kind of what's on your mind and we'll see if there's an area if I can help you out. I've got a lot of resources. If I can't help you, I'm happy to point you in the right direction. But that being said, let's get into today's topic. So Peter Hoppenfeld, who is on the line, he's been described as a lawyer who really understands marketing and a marketer who happens to be a lawyer. His approach to representing clients is more of a holistic approach that aims to bring a peace of mind and direction to the business and legal issues that successful, dynamic entrepreneurs face on a daily basis. As a lawyer, advisor, counselor, friend, and even Devil's advocate. He tries to integrate himself into his clients inner circles and provide this caring and yet dynamic contribution to their lives and businesses. He's worked with some of the top marketers, brands, people that I guarantee you've heard of, and a lot of people behind the scenes you probably haven't. And interestingly, you know, I've never had a lawyer on the show. I take that back. Vinnie Fisher has been on the show. If you haven't listened to that episode, he was great. Usually the people who seek out helps of lawyers are one of two types. They're either in trouble and they have to see them because they did something wrong or they're really successful and they want to make sure they don't lose their ass. And if you are either on the road to success, you're currently successful. There's a lot of things that you need to navigate in today's waters. Whether it's the ftc, the fda, you name it, Alphabet soup of companies. Peter has got experience in all of it, but he also knows all the best practices on how to grow a business and what's worked. He's been in this business for decades and he's seen rise and fall of a lot of people. So that is why I asked him to come on the show and to share some of his insights and knowledge with you and with, you know, that being said, welcome to the show, Peter. It's great to have you on.

Well, thanks Brad. I hope I can live up to the intro.

Yeah, hope so. Now challenge is on.

It is. I mean, game on. Let's go.

So a lawyer who understands marketing and a marketer who is also a lawyer. How long have you been in this game?

I've been in this game. It's going on 35 years. So I actually can honestly tell your audience that people did sell things before the Internet.

No way.

Way yo way.

On the infomercial days and print media.

And postage and postage stamps, you know. So, you know, I'm asked a lot about that quotation.

Yeah.

And I learned many years ago I kind of got thrown into the direct marketing world. I initially was working in the franchise world creating franchise programs for some pretty big companies and had opportunities were thrown into situations with direct marketers and it was, you know, as a young lawyer, I really didn't understand what the sales process was and realized very quickly that in that environment 30 plus years ago, if I didn't wasn't savvy enough to understand the dynamics of the sale process and then add the legal procedural best practices elements to it. I was useless anyway, as Yogi Berry used to say, when you see a fork on the road, you take it. So I've taken a variety of forks through the last three decades, generally involving direct marketers and direct marketing. And as the technology has changed, I've been adding tools to my tool belt to help service my clients and help them succeed and, you know, keep what they earn.

Nice. So that's, you know, that was one of the hard parts when deciding on exactly what to talk to you about today, because I know that from our previous offline conversation, you've got so much experience on both sides of it. On your website, PeterHoppenfeld.com look at services and it's everything from strategic advisor to legal rep to expansion strategies, direct marketing, planning, etc. And what's amazing is that you've got that breadth of resources. But I want to find out what some of the, you know, you come to this with a unique perspective compared to a lot of people, like a lot of the folks who are on the show, a lot of my friends, a lot of just marketers and entrepreneurs have one thing in mind, which is how can I grow, period?

Right.

A lot of people get into mistakes and they have a lot of issues. And the more successful you are, the more potential issues and, you know, the bigger you get, the harder you can fall. What is. I'm tempted to ask for some of the, you know, for you to talk about some of the, the horror stories out there that you've seen, but that just makes. That's almost tabloid.

I would rather than talk about train wrecks.

Yeah. I would rather, rather talk about how to avoid them.

And let's, let's go there. And I will honestly tell you, my clients, many of whom are name brands, the most successful of my clients are people who are constantly reinventing themselves and understand that you can go from zero to hero pretty rapidly, but you can also reverse that and go from hero to zero overnight. It can take a lifetime to build one customer. Yeah, customer. I also. The other key elements is understanding how to build a sustainable business. I've had clients come in the door with huge success and they don't have a bank account and they believe that PayPal is a bank and if they need to pay the mortgage, they just do another launch. That's not real business, that's a hobby. You know, the big names that you hear that you might see on my website. The other key thing to remember is behind the scenes, they're just like you and I. Yeah. They have Insecurities. They have sometimes the most, sometimes the most. They have different risk tolerances, they have comfort levels that are different from person to person. So, you know, you and I have spoken about this. I've been asked from time to time, well, why don't you do an information product that teaches your method. But my method is not and my success is not about replicating the same thing for every client because every client's needs are different, every client's risk tolerance are different, their endgames are different. You know, some people want to push the envelope, some people don't even want to step inside the envelope. And even more importantly, or more relevantly right now, is that there are so many different channels to deliver your message, to sell your product, to create a funnel. That what's fascinating to me right now if when I look at my clients successes that they each have found their key channel and nailed it. Whether it's a podcast, whether it's a webinar, whether it's YouTube, Facebook, Google Ads, email, postage stamps, there's some key magic sauce that they were able to embrace that was comfortable to them, that they were able to be genuine and unique in using. And then they built their business based upon that initial platform. You can't be everything to every person. Okay.

That's a fact.

So, you know, back in the day when I was doing live working with live event companies in the 80s and 90s, because that's really the direct marketing was, you know, I would coach platform speakers at times and say, you know, you can't sell to 100% of the room. If you try to do that, you're going to be find yourself stretching the truth, you know, exaggerating because you want every person to be shaking their head. Yes. But only 15% of the room is really there are really your buyers. And that translates the same way to people doing email marketing or Facebook ads or podcasts.

Yeah. One of my close friends and a guy who's taught me a lot about sales, his background was in the timeshare industry. And one of the things he shared is he said, look, on a good day, you know, only 20% of the people are going to come in and you know, bad reps will try to focus on getting 100% or they'll try to make it so that you know that they're able to close more than, you know, from 20 to 30% or 30 to 40 and they just try to get more. And he says what he did and what the most successful ones do is when you realize that, look, only 20% of the people coming in really have the potential to be buyers. My goal is to get 100% of the 20%. So just focus so clearly on that ideal client, that ideal customer that you're able to get that. And then don't worry about all the other ones because you're not going to get those anyway.

Well, you know what? And I'll take it a step further. Let me take you back eight, nine years. Okay. My opinion is that current Internet marketing, the current state of Internet marketing really was birthed at this, at the time of the collapse of our real estate market and credit markets in 2007, 2008. And you say, well, what do you mean? Okay, before the real estate market crashed, before banks were closing and credit cards were being tightened up and credit limits were being tightened, the general focus, the general target or the method of direct marketers were to sell as much as they could to as many people as they could right away. So that would. Their front end was a big ticket item. It could be thousands of dollars. Well, look, all those real estate companies disappeared because there was no real estate market. The ability for people who could be perceived to be opportunity junkies or seminar junkies at the time change because they didn't have the credit on their credit cards to do it any longer. And at the same time, in 2007, if I told you I was going to sell content on the Internet, you'd say, are you crazy? Content is free.

True.

Well, what happened at that time was an interesting mix, is that what emerged was the, and it's funny to say the old school Internet marketers, because the industry really isn't that old and some of them are clients of mine and they took a different tact. And Ryan Lee's a client and I love to use him as an example, they viewed the power of building a community online and giving it away to build trust. And they said, okay, you know something, let me prove to this audience that I have something of value to give them by giving it, by sharing. Then when the time is right and they really are my fans, I will then make a sale. Right, but that sale will be a test. $39, $49. You know what? If they really like me, maybe we'll do a continuity program, which was unheard of at the time in direct mail. It happened all the time.

Right.

You remember the Record Club, which predates.

I remember.

But anyway, but so, you know, you build this community and then you start with, you put your toe in the water in a sale and then the cream With Rise to the Top and the people who really love what you were doing, they would say, give me more, and you'd mark it to the top 5% of your audience. And it was $149. And they wanted more. The top 5 percenters. And then you got to a bigger event or a mastermind or whatever that might have developed into. It turned the traditional direct marketing funnel upside down. Okay.

Right.

What it did was created what now seems to be an obvious path, an obvious funnel, and became the convention, became the standard, became the best practice of selling content online. I'm talking Internet marketing, not e commerce. They're two different things.

Correct.

Okay. So the world changed in 2008, as far as I was concerned. And the effect of that changed book deals, it changed tv, it changed how you monetized a list. It changed competitors prior to that time, guarding their audiences to the hilt and viewing their competitors as enemies to a model of collaboration, joint ventures and sharing lists. And, and, and the emergence of affiliate marketing, everything changed. Everything changed.

That's it. You know, and it's interesting because I started my business, my online marketing business. I was in sales up until 2008. Took my first sale June 2, 2008, which is, I guess, almost exactly eight years ago. And that. So I didn't witness. I didn't witness it prior to that. So this is really interesting insight for me on seeing kind of how the stuff that I took for granted is, oh, it's always been like this.

Well, it hasn't been. And actually, and I mentioned to you pre call, when we were talking about issues that might be relevant to talk about, what I'm seeing now is a conflict in the business, in this niche, in this soft underbelly of marketing. Okay, that's probably only a couple of billion dollars, right?

Yeah.

Gets no respect for Madison Avenue. But nonetheless, what's happening now is there are people entering the market. They've taken courses. They. They've studied Ryan Levesque, they've studied Brendan Burchard, they've studied, you know, Frank Kern, John Benson, you name it. And now they're out there trying to become marketers, but they don't understand why things are the way they are and the rules of behavior. So there's been the biggest issues across my desk in the last 12 months has been a proliferation of people stealing other people's content, ideas, products, names. Okay. Lying, cheating and stealing, which didn't happen. This was the emergence of a marketing community built on trust.

Yeah.

So, you know, with maturity comes problems. I mean, I Think things are being self policed. But you know, it adds other complexities from my world in representing my clients and helping them navigate their daily day to day issues.

Right, so, so you're seeing a lot of. Is it outright plagiarism? Is.

Oh yeah.

Is it kind of like borrowing general concepts which has obviously been around for, you know, every. Yeah, everybody kind of borrows general ideas and kind of makes them their own. But you're talking about almost like outright plagiarism.

Outright plagiarism. Okay, look, let's kind of segue to the issue of copycats, okay. Some of my clients view, you know, they get a New York Times bestseller, Amazon bestseller. And what happens almost immediately is the clone book that shows up on Amazon within four days. You know, that where people, you know, trying to, trying to catch on to their success. And some of my author clients view that as a badge of honor. You know, oh, you've made it. Somebody already copied you.

Right.

You know, it reaches a point where it becomes disingenuous and almost criminal.

Now do they. To what degree have you seen them copy, like copy word for word and then just relaunch it word for word.

Let alone, you know, a lot of clients and businesses are using digital downloads and all of a sudden they do a launch and you know, a website from Southeast Asia shows up selling your. I see those all the time training program for $49. That's problematic when you're selling it for $999.

Can you, are there ways around that especially? Or is it kind of a lost cause? In many cases where it's the, you know, somewhere in Asia they've set up server overseas.

We've had some luck getting those, getting those removed.

But in general it's kind of a, just a hazard to do in business info. I mean it's like the music business, right? Like they, you can't combat piracy completely.

You can't. You know, we do our best. Depending on where they're hosted, we can sometimes make changes. You'd also be surprised at the power of social media as an offensive tool, which we, you know, I won't give away all the magic sauce, but it's an issue. Yeah, it's a total issue. You know, people, good ideas. All of a sudden you see somebody running with an idea that they, you know, really is not theirs. That. And on top of that there is a jungle out there of lawyers doing shakedowns, particularly in California. Oh yeah, over. I had, I just read your article.

On your blog about that.

Right. Threat. A threatened Class action, which was nothing more than extortion, you know, can spam complaints by a variety of people. So, you know, it may. Number one, you should be compliant. Number two, you should be following best practices. You should also, you know, have terms and conditions that are really developed organically that track the reality of your industry and your product. I can't tell you how many times a marketer in the health and wellness space comes to me and their privacy policy came from their local cable company. You know, so it's you really. Or I'll, you know, I am. I subscribe and I'm a member to a number of the top Facebook private groups on sales and marketing. And it's shocking to me how many people say, oh, anybody have a contractor agreement? Anybody have a template? You know, and I might respond. And then periodically the moderators will say, peter, do you have any comment? And my comment is almost uniformly, this is not a hobby, you know, this is not a hobby. This is not something to copy, to take a shortcut on under any circumstance. And I'm not saying that because I make money and preparing forms. It's just not good practice. If it's your business, you invest in your business, you know. Right.

And that being said, though, at what point, especially early on, somebody's kind of starting up, they're getting something going, they're not necessarily doing anything nefarious or really, really pushing the envelope. And there are these privacy and terms template generators out there. I've seen them, I know I've used them in the past. At what point, though, does it make sense for a startup entrepreneur who is trying to keep costs lean, etc. To. To spend money and time and legal expertise on things like the terms and the privacy? I mean, I don't see a lot of people that I know doing that from day one. They're more concerned about getting the dollars in the bank.

Yeah.

Is it? Does it.

When?

Does it really? Maybe my better question is this. When do you see things like the privacy terms and the general legal disclaimers that most of us sales and marketing entrepreneurs just gloss over? When do those usually become the bigger issues?

It's not even a matter of becoming the bigger issue. And it's not even a matter of, you know, not doing anything nefarious. It's about building a strong foundation. Okay. Business. It's a. I like to explain my process, so to speak, as tying things up in a bow, putting, taking all the pieces and having them match up so that you are ready for your success. See, that's My what I see is the biggest, the biggest misconception and the biggest problem is the entrepreneur learns, tries, catches magic in a bottle, has a product, figures out his niche, figures out the message, figures out conversion. Okay. Out there. And is ready to do a launch. And it's gonna be a big freaking deal. Okay? And lo and behold, it is. But they're not ready for their success. They haven't firmed up the supply chain for their product.

Yeah.

You don't have enough people to answer the telephone to handle customer service, which translates into short term returns. They haven't bothered to let their merchant bank know. Oh, by the way, we haven't had any action or real money coming through our account, but in the next 24 hours, expect a million dollars. It happens. Yeah. And guess what happens?

The bank shut down.

Yep. Okay. And you know, they've set up a private Facebook group, but they haven't. Don't have anybody there to moderate it. And they have, you know, and then they haven't set forth the parameters for their refund policy or really specify what their deliverables are. And lo and behold, people are complaining. Well, you know, there's an old expression of being penny wise and pound foolish. They also want to know how come six months later I can't mail to my list or I can't share my list with someone else because they didn't have a privacy policy that said they could. Okay. So it's this whole buildup of little steps that could create serious problems. You have a Facebook group that you thought would be a benefit to your audience and your community, which turns into a forum for vigilantes to trash you.

Yeah.

Ready? Okay. The best laid plans fall apart because you don't have people answering the telephone, which results in high chargeback rates and you lose your banking that could have been avoided. Okay. You are doing coaching online and you have a disruptive person or you want to moderate a group and you don't have any. Your terms of service don't allow you to do it. And you say, what am I supposed to do? This guy's ruining my business.

So what do you mean there? That terms of service don't allow you to moderate a group.

In other words, your terms. Most businesses have a series of terms and conditions which your sale should be subject to. Your shopping cart should say, your purchase of Brad's program is subject to your compliance with our privacy agreements, to our privacy policy and our terms of service or terms of use or whatever that might be. The rules of the game. Okay.

Yep.

That you're clear somewhere in your business, preferably on your homepage and repeated when people check out. This is all about buying something, right? That says, this is what our refund policy is. This is what you're buying. We might host social media sites or blogs and you might comment and this is how we can handle those. And we can reproduce them or we, or we can take them down in our discretion. We might link to other sites and if we do, we're not responsible for what they say. We're giving you financial advice and we have a disclaimer about what that means. We're doing health and wellness things. We have a disclaimer about what that means, like don't just stop taking your medicine, please see a doctor. Right. Those kinds of things, amongst others. The rules of behavior. If you're doing a close mastermind, for example, if you should be there. So when people buy, they are buying into the rules. So if you have a problem with them later, you can go back to them and say, you agreed to this, we're suspending you, we're refunding you or you've lost your money.

Yeah.

Or when they charge back to American Express, you can wave it at Amex and say, wait a second, at the time of checkout, they knew that this was going to happen. Okay. And those things which typically, you know, more often than not get ignored until there's a problem later. It's not like, you know, when people say I'm going to wait until I have more success to have a more comprehensive legal foundation or contracts or forms or disclaimers because they never get back to it until they have a problem.

That is true. Because then once you get into the, once you get in the thick of it and if you are having success, you're spinning 100 plates at once and it's the last thing on your mind until it's the first thing on your mind.

Correct.

That's, that's a good quote. It's the last thing on your mind.

Until it's still, it's a, until it's a pain in the ass.

Until it's the first.

That's right.

What about, what are some other. I know that this is an age old thing, but it's also been, you know, creeping up even more and more and a lot of people are, you know, facing scrutiny from the FTC over claims. Have you seen them, you know, both in business, health, etc. Have you, have you seen much more action? Like are they becoming more litigious on claims and coming after people who Are.

So the answer is and no.

Okay.

And you say that. Gee that's helpful. I can tell you that almost uniformly regardless of the type of offer when I follow the FTC press releases daily.

Okay.

Uniformly matters reach a point of an FTC action when there are misrepresentations about the program offer or product and there are unresolved complaints in large number and or the FTC is interested in painting a broad brush over a type of offer.

So when they want to make an example of somebody like or there's a.

For example last year was the Garcinoga green coffee offer.

Yep.

After everybody. Okay. For rightfully so the deal.

Wait, are you saying that that was not a miracle cure to give me a six pack without.

Without exercising or waking up at night or even getting out of bed?

But that's what it said on the page, so it had to be.

Well and it also said that Dr. Oz endorsed it when he just stole the video from his TV show. Oops.

Yeah, I saw that there was a video. I guess Dr. Oz was busting the.

People who he was. But then Dr. Oz actually was slaughtered himself in front of a congressional committee because they scolded him for not vetting in a better fashion the things he's putting on his show.

That's true. Yeah.

But ultimately, if you're going to make a claim, whether it's our business related course, a product or something health and wellness related, you need to tell the truth. Number one, you need to have substantiation. Let's not. I'm not going to talk about FDA issues. We can do that in a minute. Substantiation. If you're going to use a testimonial, you have to follow the testimonial rule which we can spend an hour and a half on alone. And I'd be glad to send you some a white paper I wrote on the testimonial rule. You can make it available to your audience.

That'd be great. Yeah, I'd love to put that in the show notes.

You know, if you're using testimonials, follow the testimonial rule. If you're making claims about earnings, you have to have substantiation. If it's on the health and wellness side, if it's a supplement or a nutritional that's not approved, you can't make disease claims. You can't say it's going to cure cancer. You can say it'll make you feel better. And if you're going to have scientific studies, they have to be real yeah.

Oh, you mean you can't just make those up?

Honestly, isn't it freaking amazing? You can't make that stuff up. Now the other guaranteed way to get scrutiny is to have unresolved complaints. Unresolved. If your audience cannot reach you or is you're unresponsive and there are a high volume of complaints, you will get on a radar screen and you could have a problem. And uniformly when I look at reports where the FTC has actually taken an action, you will see that. And trust me, it's the rare occasion that they do. But it's certainly deterrent because if they are, you are a target. Life as you know, it has changed whether you're, whether you're right or you're wrong.

Oh, you're absolutely right. It's. It's kind of funny. This kind of just brings me up. It brings back a. This was funny. I'm 99 point triple 9% sure. This wasn't compliant. But there used to be. There was a supplement that I had found. It was called Pure Black. It was P U R Blac. Right. And it was just, I don't know, it was just like resin or whatever it was health supplement. Somebody had given it to me. I was looking at it. But what was really funny about the thing was their, I call it funny. I don't know if they got in trouble, but it was their disclaimer page.

Yeah.

Because they said, you know, we are like emphatically not claiming that Pure Black has been shown to, you know, they didn't say cure cancer, but to do this, this, this and this and this. We are emphatically not associating ourselves with the following studies that say these things.

So it's kind of like a double reverse switch.

Yeah, it was, it was like in the face of the, pretty much in the face of the, of the FDA or FTC or whatever you know, making the, making these claims. It was actually the funniest. But it was like a really legit company. But it still is. But it was just really funny to talk about how. Nope, we are absolutely not associating ourselves with these apparently amazing studies. So I don't know. I wouldn't risk it if I was.

No, I don't think it's worth risking. Trust me.

No, not at all. The other, other claims. Okay. It basically boils down to at first, complaints. If you're getting complaints, then it's going to alert the ftc. They're not necessarily just out there combing the, the Internet looking for offers that they can Take down. I'm sure they're pretty darn busy.

We don't even need to talk about the ftc. If you want attention of the plaintiffs, bar lawyers who are mining the world for class action targets, state regulators, better business bureaus, FTCs and the like, I invite you to ignore your customers. Lie, cheat, steal and ignore your customers. Guaranteed formula for problems.

Yeah, that's true. Because then you know, when problem, you know, problem customers go, you only need one, like you said, to make a big enough splash. And I've got several people I know where they're. They had one person and now that person ranks number two or number three for their name. And it was just one highly disgruntled person who just decided that, hey, I'm going to take this social media and do SEO and just obliterate your business.

Right? Yeah. And beyond that, you know, just on social media, Facebook, you know, like I said before, the group you form for your audience, for you to moderate and teach becomes a hotbed of revolution and would have been one refund becomes 50.

Yeah. Like you said, especially if somebody gets in there and starts talking and then you're not there to moderate it and nip it in the bud.

Correct. So yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry, so what about, these are some of the dangers, you know, we've been talking about some of the things like the best practices and look, don't, you know, if you're, if you're planning on, if you're getting in business, you're planning on being a success, if you're planning on being a success, cover your basis. What are some of the stuff that you've seen out there? Now on the flip side that are really working stuff, you're impressed by some positive trends you're seeing that maybe something you're excited by, something that maybe my listeners can walk away with feeling like, wow, this is really cool.

It's definitely not all negative. For me, the best parts of my day is the conversations I have with marketers, entrepreneurs who understand their public voice and also understand and are students of marketing trends and ways to integrate multi channel marketing. That's where the real excitement is. Tying together your social media presence with your marketing, with your affiliate partners with a really high quality product that's focused and that is genuine.

Is there anybody you want to like call Positive Light to like somebody who's doing it right necessarily without.

I'll give you an example. I work for, I work with Harv Eker for a dozen years. Okay. The one thing about Harv is what you saw was what you got.

Yeah.

And he was deeply involved in the nitty gritty of his messaging and his image and his business. So, you know, when I speak, I joke that you can't run your business from a luxury box. And when you do, you tend to lose sight of what your audience really wants. A more recent client is Mastin Kipp, who I really, really, really like, who totally gets it. Very genuine, very sincere. Like or dislike his product or service or horror, for example, their likelihood of success and their success is based upon genuinely nailing it. Okay. You know, I have clients, six pack shortcuts. The guy started in their bedroom four years ago. They are the largest direct advertiser on YouTube in the world.

Yeah, I was just talking to him, although he's no longer with him. I was just talking to my Chang on the phone yesterday.

Yeah, totally, totally. Nailed it. And that's. You know what it is? I think the challenge to the audience is that you're inundated with successful marketers who are now teaching marketing. Okay. Because that's a natural extension. I get that. And they tend to give you a rubric. You do A, you do B, you do C, then you do D. Okay. And the next guy says, you do one, you do two, you do three, you do four, the next guy says, you do this, this, this, and this. And I have clients who take that and in a very formulaic way, have some element of success. But the really successful people, the ones who understand that Brendan Burchard isn't telling you you have to do it that way, or Ryan Levesque this way, or Franklin that way. The people who are most successful are the ones who integrate the best practices and put it together in a unique way that resonates with what they have to say and how they want to say it. Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, it's like I review offers for clients sometimes I vet offers for several big lists and I'll look at things and it's, you know, it's a video sales letter. It starts by saying, you know, in the next seven minutes, it's really a 22 minute video. And it's got a little figure with a crayon.

Oh, yeah.

And you can't stop it.

A lot of originality to.

Right. And you can't stop it. And the buy not a button. Doesn't show up at a certain time and it uses certain colors, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And if I were to go to one of those marketers and say, well, why do you do it? That Way they would say because so and so did it and it converted. Okay. And if I went up to train, went to that person that they copied and said, why do you do it that way? They'll say because so and so did it and it converted. And I would keep going and going until I found the originator. Okay. So I challenge my clients to be the people that get copied from a structural offer point of view. Don't copy my clients words, but if you want to copy their funnel mechanics, their new take on a video sales letter, or their approach to monetizing a podcast, that's great. That shows that my clients were innovative. We're pushing the envelope and taking successful pieces that are out there and synthesizing it in a unique way. Okay. Yeah, that's the challenge and that's what creates serious wealth and success.

Who else is there anybody else that you want to kind of shine a light on that is, you know, maybe that aren't as well known who's doing an amazing job? You don't have to, but I'm just Joel.

I mean, I have a lot of clothes clients out, several of whom have been New York Times best sellers in the last three, four months. Pedram, Sojay. Amazing, amazing use of documentary film as part of his funnel. JJ Virgin's been a long term client. She understands multi channel marketing and the use of a book of books as a hallmark and building block for her business. A lot to be coming down the road for her. Harv Eker used his book as a way to jumpstart the originally planned great affiliate program that started putting thousands of people in his rooms. He gave away the books for free and included two tickets in them. How smart was that, right?

Yeah, that's awesome.

You know, Vishen Lakhiani, who's a client in Mindvalley, has an amazing book that just came out that's on the New York Times.

Yeah, he's killing it.

Totally killing it. And these are all. I mean, it's funny, some people come to me and they're kind of awestruck and celebrity stricken and they say, what's it like to deal with so and so? Like, they're just people, okay? They're driven, they are insanely focused, but they have their own insecurities. And you know, behind the scenes, in the conversations we have, they welcome the challenge to make sure that what their decisions are, are well thought out. Okay. And they're open to tweaking and to finding, you know, the best way. So it's not their way or the highway. Yeah.

And, you know, you. In these days, one of the most critical skills I found is being able to adapt quickly because things are changing faster than they've ever changed.

Absolutely.

Whether it's the platforms, whether it's how you're talking to people, whether it's, I mean, one of the big things right now are ad blockers is huge for the, you know.

Yeah.

For publishers and, you know, things stop working the way it used to. So you can't just rely on one methodology anymore.

And, you know, if the Facebook algorithm changes tonight, a lot of people will screen tomorrow. Right.

Yep. This question just popped in my head. What is, in your experience, which of the business models out there that you've worked with seems to be the most. I don't know, I don't want to say the word complex, but I mean.

What do you mean by business models?

Yeah. So let me give you an example. This question just popped in my head. So it's not a real well formed one and I'm trying to think, but so I know I was having a conversation with somebody the other day. I have personally been involved with, with. I counted like 14 business models in one way or another. Whether I started, partnered, advised, had success with, dabbled with, and failed completely because I was putting a square peg in a round hole.

Yeah.

I've tried a lot of ones and there's some business models that seem like a hell of a lot of work for a hell of a lot of frustration and lower reward versus other ones. And for instance, I was actually just having this conversation with somebody today who is, he is a thought leader, he's an expert. His, his, his, his, his uniqueness is in his ability to sell himself. Right, right. He was like, man, sometimes I talk to some of my friends and sometimes I just like, why am I not just in the supplement business? And I told him, because you have no reason being in there, none of it, none of the strengths. Play to your own necessities, Play to your strengths.

Right.

And I was telling him about some of the other friends that I had. Now, supplement business is great. You can make probably more money than that in a lot of different things.

Right.

But I know cash flow becomes an issue and profitability. So like, I know, for instance, I've got a physical product business, I've got a coffee business. And as we're trying to gain traction, get it off the ground, I noticed that, that, you know, cash flow management is becoming more important as well as, you know, dealing with lower margins. It's a wider net, you can cast. But it's lower margins and certain things like supplements. Like I actually have no desire to ever be in that because of some of the complexities, etc. Have you, are there any business models that you've kind of found that you're like, I wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

I'm going to answer this in a different way. Cool.

Because it's not a well formed question.

That's okay. I won't hold it against you. And your audience still loves you. Here's the deal. Keep it simple. So I'll have clients come to me, hey, we spoke to so and so. We're going to do this. We're going to share equity. We're going to have a revenue share. We're going to do this and this and this and this and this and this and this. And I say, whoa, back up, back up. Keep it simple. Number one, you don't give up equity just because it's not funny money.

Yeah.

Okay. If you become partners with people that you want to live your life with, not with strangers. You crawl before you walk. You walk before you run. That's number one. Number two, keep it simple. Simple, simple. Date before you get married. If you, you're going to build something and you want your marketing partners, leave it as marketing partners revenue share. But remember that it can't add up to more than 100. Okay. Yeah, because I've seen that too.

Yeah. The. You bring up an interesting thing too. So I've thought about this for years, especially in this world of Internet marketing and Internet entrepreneurs where a lunch, you know, a lunch can create a business overnight. Like a partnership overnight.

Yeah.

There's oftentimes been sitting around with somebody you really like. Like, oh my God, we just had a great idea. Well, you want to do this together, let's do it. And I know my very first business was a, you know, we did an LLC. There's a 5050 partnership in there. It ended up turning out well. But we had a couple of issues where I was like, okay, I had to buy him out. And it could have been ugly if we weren't such good friends. And we did it well. But I thought that because this is an industry that creates partnerships and whatnot so quickly with very little thought as to the exit.

Correct.

Or to the management that it would be like. And I haven't actually found any good hesitate to use courses, instruction or resources about the right ways to set up a partnership for something that you don't know it's going to Work for sure. You're really excited about it right now. But how to set it up? Like you said, whether it's with revenue share or a true joint venture company. And not a lot of times joint venture gets used for just another word for an affiliate promotion. But I always thought that that would be really useful, like. Yeah. How to set up the structure for a new business partnership. Because it's only a problem if the business is a success. If it fails. I mean, I'm saying this. If you start off and you don't get any traction and then you guys go, this was a dumb idea, we both walk away. That's the easiest. The worst case scenario is it's really successful. And then one person gets upset that the other person isn't pulling their weight.

Correct. So the answer is. And it goes back to what we talked about about a half hour ago. Gee, we're so busy building the business, we really need to invest in terms of service and privacy policy. Gee, we're so busy with this magic we're about to create. Do we really need to worry about forming an LLC or a corporation, having a shareholders agreement? The answer is you do. Okay.

Yeah.

If it's going to be a business, treat it like a business. At the beginning. At the beginning. Because once money really gets involved or there's a discrepancy in effort, time or money, the cost and expense of getting extricated from that can be unbelievable.

Well, and now the emotional. There's much more of an emotional attachment. And now there's sometimes animosity.

So. Absolutely. Now let me also add to that equation about good ideas, starting a business, creating a product, blah, blah, blah. And it's the one thing we haven't talked about. Trademarks.

Yeah.

Okay. Buying a. You know, the typical conversation I get, hey, I met so and so we have this really great idea and we bought the URL already going to business. And I'll say, just because you have a URL does not mean you have a trademark. Yeah. Or else an address. It doesn't mean somebody else doesn't have that name. You know, if, if I don't step in early and you've spent 10, 20, 50, $100,000 building a funnel and a NIN and a brand and a dot, and somebody comes knocking at the door and says, I own that trademark, isn't that kind of stupid? You wouldn't bet. Yeah. You need to be picking names and trademarks and doing searches to make sure that you can permissibly name your business or service appropriately. Trademarks Are not things to do later. They will cost you a fortune. If you're going to use photographs on in your offer, make sure that they are either public domain. You took them or you license them. Getty Images will be glad to bill you $1,000 for the use of them all. Yeah, I've heard and they are. And trust me, people get pissed about it. Why should they? They own it. You're going to use music in a video, get a license. Because it's a whole lot cheaper to get it now than to pay them later. I just had one where a client, very successful, had 15 YouTube videos from early in the game that would have cost them 2, $3,000 to get a license. Guess how much it cost them to settle up.

Oh, no idea.

$65,000 because they had somebody else's. They, they used music that was written by. They didn't get a license to use the music. Wow. So it's foundational again. You know, is it a hobby or is it a business? If it's really real, that conversation you have with your buddy and say, wow, I'm glad we thought of that. We're going to rule the world. Everybody's gonna buy this. It's the best thing. Blah, blah, blah. When it reaches that point that you're actually devoting your time to it, treat it like a business trademark, work power, have a shareholders agreement between you form a new entity. Okay. Paper trail it. If you're going to hire copywriters, graphic designers, web designers, have a independent contractor agreement that's clear that you own the content. Make it clear. That's another great one that's been. That always haunts clients. They come to me so and so says they own my content. Well, where's the contract? We don't have it. Okay, so and so says they own 10% of my business. I haven't seen them in five years. It's a business.

Yeah. And it only takes one of those people to kind of come back and make your life a nightmare.

Now if you're talking about early, it's like, oh, we'll deal with that stuff later. And then as your business grows, your time becomes more valuable and the diversion starts to cost you money. And if you have to retrench and re edit and pull content out because you have a dispute, how is that impacting your bottom line? It's probably more impactful than spending the money. Earlier there was an old commercial in the New York area for monikey mufflers that used to say, you can pay me, now you can Pay me later.

Okay, yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. And I know I'm going right now with the stiletto coffee. I'm still waiting at any, any moment. We're at the final, hopefully month or so before we get our trademark on it. It looks like we're probably in the clear, but there you go. So definitely had to go get that. And, and you're not saying to get your wait to get your trademark necessary. I mean, do your searches get, get.

A good idea trademark processes. It'll take six to nine months anyway. Right. Make sure it's clear and get your application and you can file an intent to use on a trademark very cost effectively. And like, I would be glad I have a trademark attorney here in New York. I use all my clients. She's very effective, very cost effective. She'd be a great conversation for you. I'd be glad to refer her to anybody who's listening to this call. It's money well spent. Do a search, file an intent to use and then complete the process.

Yeah, yeah, I actually didn't even do the intent to use. I just did enough searches and I said, okay, get it out there, let's see. And hopefully it comes through. So when you're working with clients, especially because you have a number of services you work with, what is it like typically to work with you? So client comes to you or prospective client comes to you and there may be a listener out there who feels the same way.

Right.

What's it look like?

Like it looks, it depends on what you need. It depends on what they need. My business model, my, my preference is having clients that I work with on a regular, continual, long term basis and share in their growth and their maturity as they build their business. Yeah, 80% of my clients, maybe a little more, are on a monthly retainer where I kind of fight against the standard build, you know, hours, hourly billing model. I don't like it. I think it's a disincentive people to pick up the phone and communicate when they're worried that the clock is ticking. So for the most part, my clients are a monthly retainer where we set a fair number that is fair for my time and fair for their, their, their work product. And we evaluate every four months. Nice. I do take on projects on a project fee basis if I can, if I can identify it in a clean sort of way where everybody's on the same page and try to do projects on just a project fee basis. And then I have, you know, situations that just lend themselves to no Other circumstance, other than an hourly, you know, billing process.

Okay, perfect.

Yeah.

So if people want to get ahold of you, what is the.

The best way to reach me is you can reach me while my website, as you said earlier, is peterhoppenfeld.com My email is phoppenfeld. No dot, no space. P H O P P e n f lichenfrank e l dmail.com Many people on the call might decide they want to be my friend on Facebook. Let me direct you if I could. I have a business page. Peter Hoffmanfeld, Attorney. That's the best way to follow me on social media. Give me a. Like there. Because on my personal page, you know, there are pictures of my daughter's wedding. My. I have a couple of Labrador retrievers, you know, and I. Please don't take offense if I don't accept your friend request because I'm the same way.

I've got.

Trying to separate, you know, my lives.

Yeah, I've got a thousand personal friend requests. I send it to my right personal one, too.

I am on LinkedIn. But that, it's not really that effective for me. And I do occasionally, and I try to more than occasionally post on my Facebook business page so I can share what's going on with trends in the industry.

Awesome. Yep. I'm going in there to like your page right now.

Thank you, Peter.

I really appreciate your time on the show today. This has been, you know, it's been really eye opening. And it reminds me, I know there's several areas in my business, in life, that I cut corporate corners on just because it's kind of the nature of go, go, go entrepreneurs. And there's a lot of people out there who probably doing the exact same thing. And it's like we said, it's the last thing on your mind till it's the first thing on your mind.

And it's.

It's nice to know that there's a resource out there like yourself who is, you know, a marketer who happens to be a lawyer. And the way that we came about literally was. I was having a. I was at a Mastermind dinner the other night, and somebody said, I need a. I need an attorney who understands everything from supplements to marketing to direct response. And, you know, I reached out. Somebody recommended you. I think it was. I think it was Tony Greb Meyer. Tony then told Charlie or Charles to reach out.

Right.

I think that's what it was.

So as a result of that, I'm speaking with our mutual friend tomorrow.

That's beautiful.

And here we are on a radio together. Right.

I know. Yeah. I love the way this world works.

So podcast world is cybersphere.

That's a fact.

Right.

Well, Peter, I appreciate you. I look forward to staying in contact with you. And I will tell you that, I mean, you know, when I'm ready for some of that stuff and for you to look it over, you'll be the absolute first person I personally call. And I recommend that my listeners do the exact same thing.

Awesome. I appreciate the time. I hope I was helpful and added to the conversation.

Yep, I know you were. So as a listener out there, go check out Peter's stuff. And I mean, here's the thing. Go find him and bookmark it, because you never know when you're going to need an attorney or an advisor or strategist or somebody who's got Peter skills. And hopefully you need him before. Before you get in trouble. So what is the old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

Something like that. Right.

And as you can hear that Peter's got a lot of wisdom and knowledge about marketing best practices and what works throughout the years. And he's seen the trends. He's seen some of the trends that I've absolutely not been privileged to see. I was a consumer at the time that he was helping people sell into the markets. So the. That's why I appreciate your time on the show today. As a listener, the best thing you can do is if you're having a problem, if you need a second opinion on your marketing strategies, your growth, what you're doing, if you just need to help finding clarity on the best course of action, send me an email to askbradaconrappbusiness.com and share this show on social media. Would love to see it if you do. So tag me in it until next time. Peter, thank you very much for joining me on Bacon Wrap to business.

Thank you.