100 Celsius Perpetual Office - Mar 13, 2025

Well, the thing I wanted to talk about as a conversation starter today was how do we improve our profit margins on subscriptions? And we all know subscriptions are awesome for many reasons, but oftentimes brands that index heavily on subscriptions also leave a lot of money on the table.

And the thing is that there are.

So many different parts of the subscription and the subscriber journey where people have sometimes incorrect assumptions of what's required to get people to subscribe or stay subscribed.

Or how subscriptions fit in with the larger brand ecosystem. And what it ends up doing is.

Unnecessarily erodes your margin at scale.

If you can get an extra 5%.

Margin back, 10% margin by making some of these tweaks, that's a huge impact to the bottom line.

So I guess what I wanted to.

Talk through today are four places where.

We oftentimes see merchants are able to.

Make some pretty easy tweaks and reclaim some margin, especially on subscriptions. But the first one is the subscription discount structure.

So this is actually one that we.

Are working on together with you guys.

Which is this idea that a lot.

Of brands start with a, they start and continue with a higher than necessary subscription discount.

So for example, we have a client.

That for a long time has been running, you know, 30% off all subscription orders compared to one time. First order, 30% off. And recurring orders are 30% off.

And sometimes during promotions they'll go up.

To like 40% off subscriptions.

This is kind of based in my.

Opinion, on a misunderstanding of what it takes to get somebody to subscribe and.

Then what people value on the back end because that's a huge hit to margin. And so a lot of times we see a, a better net result with.

What we're doing with you guys, which is a higher discount on your first order and then a lower discount on recurring orders. So maybe like 20, 25, 30% on your first subscription order and then maybe like 10, 15, 20% on recurring.

What's cool there is that you get.

The benefit of that higher display discount on the front end, but it.

But.

Then you save margin on recurring orders and normally it has a very kind of low impact on retention rate.

I don't know if that, if that.

Kind of resonates with.

With what you've.

Seen in the past. Haley?

Yeah, definitely like the incentive to start and then continue.

Yeah.

What the, the key thought process is there is that like do, to what.

Extent do subscribers truly value that extra 5 to 10% discount on recurring orders when it comes to making A decision to stay or not for the customer.

You know, it's not normally the biggest.

Factor, but for the brand at scale, that extra 5 to 10% back in your pocket on recurring orders makes a huge impact and normally kind of far outweighs the potential hit, very small hit to retention.

So a good thing to. To if. If you're just starting with this type.

Of thought process is basically kind of.

Like, look at how many.

What's your average order count for your average subscriber.

And then assuming a kind of a.

Constant churn, would a kind of that higher or lower approach outperform a static discount over that same amount of orders?

What's up, Eliza?

Hi. Sorry I'm a little late.

Good to see you. Now. It's. It's all good. We just thought we'd kind of hop into the training, but I can kind of recap. Have you been on the.

The retention reimagined this morning?

I caught it too late. Like, I was just randomly scrolling on Twitter and of course it's random and inconsistent. So I saw it pop up on my feed and I registered and I'm like, oh, shit, it's right now. So I missed. I missed your piece in it.

That's all good. Well, it was basically the same talk.

That I gave last. Last Commerce roundtable.

Okay.

Some little adjustments, but.

But yeah. So, Alyssa, just to kind of quickly catch you up, I guess we can. We can finish this training then.

Any questions or things you want to talk about too, we can. We can do on the back end.

But what I was going through today.

Was essentially four places that most subscription brands can.

Can put some extra margin and dollars.

Back in their pocket by optimizing across the subscriber journey. Mm.

And the. The takeaway here is that there's usually a big opportunity here for subscription brands to. To.

To recover some margin in a way that doesn't impact take rate or retention.

In a big way, but actually puts a lot of. A lot of profit back towards the.

Bottom line for the brand.

Amazing.

Yeah. And the first. The first one that we just covered.

Which is basically the initial subscription discount.

Meaning a lot of brands have a flat, consistent discount.

So like 20%, 25% off all subscription orders.

And one really impactful thing to try.

Is a higher discount on your first subscription order and then a lower discount on recurring subscription orders. So, for example, maybe 25% off your first order, 10% off your recurring orders, 15%.

What happens there is you get sometimes.

Better take rate because you're displaying a higher discount at the time of checkout for the customer.

The difference in maybe 5 to 10%.

Discount isn't necessarily like the biggest factor in their decision to stay or go. But for the brand, when you're thinking about 5, 10, 15, 20,000 subscriptions, right, or more, you're gonna count that extra 5 to 10% on all recurring orders makes a huge difference.

So that's one area we typically recommend.

Testing this type of structure. I think it could be interesting for Breeze.

I know we were talking about it one of the other meetings that you brought up this idea and Nick was like, how about the oppos where the first, the first discount is low and you incentivize repeat orders that turn with a higher discount. And I honestly don't see those being rolled out anytime soon. No, I feel, I feel like it's going to end up being next year if we keep it relevant within the channel. Within the channel, Yeah, I agree.

Okay, so second area, welcome offer.

A lot of brands.

Don'T realize they're.

Doing this, but their email opt in.

Or their pop up welcome offer is sort of incongruent with subscription acquisition.

Meaning one of two things. Either a, the email opt in offer.

Double stacks on top of the subscription discount without them really thinking through the margins there.

So imagine 15% off your first order.

Plus 20% off your first subscription order.

You get 32% total discount on that first order.

Right.

That's what we're doing.

And that really hurts your margins without you really needing to actually. On the flip side, we see this just as often is that brands do think about that and they're like, oh, okay, so, so we'll do 15% off. But it's just not.

Subscription orders aren't eligible for the discount.

But what happens there is then somebody.

Somebody opts in, they go to their.

Email, they're like, okay, here's the code. They go and they're like, oh yeah, I think I'm going to subscribe. And then at checkout they try to enter that code and they're like, sorry, it's not eligible. So you're cutting somebody out of the.

Conversion flow when they're wanting to buy and you're disincentivizing subscriptions.

Neither one's a great option. So we actually have a playbook for.

This, like written up. I don't know if Hayley or Alyssa, if you guys have seen this, but.

There'S a couple options that we really.

Like for welcome pop ups.

One is something we just call like the state. The obvious pop up where you Have.

A great subscription offer. Maybe it's 20% off your first subscription order or 30% off or something.

And then in the pop up you literally just go get 30% off your first subscription order. Like you get 30% off and then.

Subtext your first autoship order when you enter your email.

And it's literally not a different offer.

Than what you're just doing on the PD on the pdp, but you're just like saying it. You're just.

And what we found is that you don't get a, it actually gets about.

The same level of email opt in rate just by like literally saying the.

Offer that you promote on the pdp. And then in the confirmation you just go like great, you've unlocked your offer. Like click here and you know, go.

Add anything to cart to claim your deal on subscription.

And that's, that's basically it. And then in a welcome flow you.

Can like promote, you can like merchandise subscriptions better and everything.

So that's one option. Or you can do. We really like the cash back approach through something like fondue because that's a very good one that you can make.

Eligible for both one time and subscription.

And it reduces your overall exposure to discounts because. Are you guys familiar with how those.

Cash back offers work or the mechanism there?

It's been a while. I haven't worked within it for like maybe three years when it first launched on Postscript.

Yeah I, I initially was like a.

Little skeptical of, of cash back as.

A.

As a mechanism.

But as it relates to if your.

If your goal is subscriber acquisition, it's what's really nice about it is that.

You opt in, you claim doesn't apply.

A discount to your first order. So it doesn't double stack anything on top once you buy, whether it's on subscription or as a one time purchase.

You get an email separately that's like.

Hey, claim your cash back.

And people actually have to go physically.

Like not physically, but click through the email, claim their cash back reward and they can choose to get it as.

Like a gift card or store credit.

For a repeat purchase for a multiplier effect.

But the kicker is only 30 to.

40% of people who are eligible for this end up claiming the cash back.

Versus if you offer 15% off your.

First order when you opt in. Basically everybody is going to use that.

Exactly.

It's kind of like the same principle as offering 15% off or 20% off.

In your first abandoned cart email.

It's like there's a whole lot of.

People who would buy with just a gentle reminder.

But if you just, if you feature.

The discount, they're going to use the discount.

Within the spirit of cash back. Have you seen like points, like loyalty points back.

I.

On subscriptions?

Some people do it. You know, I have, I have like.

A pretty hardcore point of view on points based loyalty programs in that I hate them.

Okay, this is a whole other channel.

Tell me how you really feel, Brian.

I hate them and I think anybody.

That does it is dumb.

Strong opinions.

Usually that comes from me, not Brian.

I just think I have never.

I've.

And you know, I am not the.

Moral authority on all things E commerce.

So I am open to being proven wrong here. But general consensus in the industry that I've seen is that points based loyalty.

Programs, unless you're like Sephora or Target or something, is not particularly effective.

I think for customers it's just so.

Hard to be like, okay, I'm like making purchases and I get some points.

And how much are these points worth? And it's just like, I think dollars.

Dollars or percentage is kind of where you want to be.

Okay, no hot take.

That's a great question though. Okay.

Free shipping. This is another one juicy topic.

Yeah, well, I think a lot of people when they are getting started with.

Subscriptions are just like, oh yeah, subscribers.

Should get a percentage off and free shipping. But that doesn't need to be the case.

You don't actually have to offer subscribers free shipping as a global benefit.

And in fact, I think it oftentimes.

Makes more sense to not offer free shipping to subscribers and to keep free shipping unlocked over a certain spend threshold.

What's interesting here is, you know what.

I should actually pull up. Let me just pull up this artifact I was working on.

Hold on.

Let'S see if I can find it.

Yeah, okay.

So I was working on kind of a household based subscription plan picker design.

And you can, depending on how you position it, you can actually especially if.

You have like quarterly supply options or increased pack supplies.

That's another way to incentivize people not.

Only to subscribe but, but to subscribe to larger quantity orders or to subscribe for a 3 month supply.

So you can see this example where.

It'S like, you know, we're asking people how many people are going to be using brand or like how many packs do you want with an extra discount on top.

And then in every month or every three months supply, what you'll see is that like you can say, you know.

All quarterly supply, all quarterly plans get free shipping. Regardless of size or if you do monthly.

You still get the 15% free gifts cancel anytime. And now you get. But now because you're spending $50, you.

Get free shipping as well.

So kind of like you can still.

Use that to drive higher AOV orders on subscription and use free shipping as a strategic incentive rather than just kind of unilaterally giving it away.

And you can really show shipping savings.

As part of that subscription value too, when you do offer it.

And then the, the fourth area which.

We see a lot is surprise and delight or rewards.

So Alyssa, this is something that we've.

Talked, you know, a decent amount about with Nick and stuff. Like how do we structure these types of reward programs for retention?

We're actually doing something this coming month finally, and it's the monthly giveaway.

I know, Yeah, I mean, I think.

That that is like such a good way to do, to do this type of thing.

I do like renewal based rewards when tested and validated. But the trap that I see a lot of people fall into is that.

Their subscriber, their subscription platform and their.

CSMs and stuff will be like, yes.

We have this feature.

You can offer gifts and incentives on renewals. And there's a lot of talk around.

Like gamifying subscribers to stay.

The problem is a lot of brands.

Set up these long, complex journeys.

So, so for example, Haley, like we had like, Ned originally had like 30.

Or 40 different gifts.

It was just like a lot of merch.

Yeah, it's like a lot of merch.

And it was like gift, gift, gift.

Gift, gift, gift, gift. And like for the North Star. And one of our first recommendations is.

Just like cut it like, like trim all of those.

Like you should have, you should start.

With no more than like one or two gifts on your first and second renewals to test.

At least that's what we see work the best. And we, we see this in different variations.

Like there are brands that we've started.

Working with where like they have on.

Order number four, they offer 25% off.

Automatically or every fifth order free, which is cool. Which is cool. But you really have to ask yourself, is that benefit the thing that's keeping.

Our subscribers at that point, if they.

Get to order three, order four with.

You, just generally it means that they like the product and they're using it and they're seeing value with, has a lot less to do with sort of the game, like gamified discounts and stuff.

And so oftentimes what happens is we'll.

See merchants like giving away 25% 30% on like orders where the subscriber would have very likely stayed subscribed anyways. And you're just taking a hit on.

Margin on the very orders where you.

Really need to make as much margin as possible to make subscriptions work.

Yeah.

It kind of trains the customer too, that they'll always get gifts to where it takes away that like surprise and delight kind of aspect of it.

Totally. Yeah. I think it's a really good, that's.

A really good point where it's like, what precedent are you setting and do you want people to buy just because of these gifts and discounts or how do you want to frame it?

Our perspective is we know that most.

Subscribers, if they're going to cancel, they're going to do it right before and right after their first renewal and then after that, right before and right after their second renewal.

So it kind of makes sense if.

We'Re going to do these renewal based surprise and delight offers that we focus on those key points.

One note here, just from like consumer perspective, have you looked at magic minds flow or work with magic mind Brian?

We have.

We've talked to them before.

I haven't done a, haven't done a.

Deep dive into their flow recently.

Well, I subscribed to them during Black Friday Cyber Monday and just because I love the product, I've kept it like regardless if there was gifts involved, I pro. I'd still keep it, to be honest.

Right.

And even looking, I don't know, it would be cool if this ended up being one of your clients because they put a pop up offer for the subscription within the subscription portal and I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. I'm already subscribed.

Oh, oh. So where you actually have to someone's. You have to. Where you have to claim the reward.

Well, I already have. Can I share my screen?

Yeah, I'd love to see.

It's super interesting.

This actually is a really cool strategy.

I already have a subscription. I exited out of the pop up but the pop up was like, oh, get up to 50% off and claim free gifts. And I'm like, oh, I'm already in here. Then would I just get another subscription that's 50% off and probably cancel this one.

It's firing an error like inside the Porter portal. Like it should, the pop up shouldn't.

Be firing in there.

Oh, I think you might just be.

You might have just noticed a technical issue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was saying. I'm like, you should work with them because I don't think that's supposed to happen.

It's funny, they work with Skio in their MSM was just like, hey, like they really need your help. We should like, yeah, yeah, they're, they're.

A cool brand but that's not a great customer experience.

And even the little unlock 50% off.

Teaser down in the bottom left corner that probably.

Yeah, this is the pop up that actually showed up. Good, good catch.

Yeah, yeah.

Like I'm already signed up. I have my email in there, I have my SMS in there and even then like I haven't touched any of these challenges or like I have no interest in adding more work to the challenge personally. Yeah, but it is a cool experience for people who are like involved in this way.

You just got to imagine, right, like this, that's, that's the challenge with this.

Kind of stuff is your customers are like really busy and like that's a lot of work to build that kind of stuff out. It's like a big investment in time. Technical, dev, all that stuff.

I didn't even know Skio did this. This isn't a Skio thing, is it?

No, that's a custom portal.

Holy.

Yeah, that's kind of a lot.

Yeah, it's a custom.

But this is cool.

It is cool.

So it looks like they're doing subscription and kind of a loyalty type thing of like points is this, does that fall under it? Loyalty having point?

Yeah, there's some like, there's this concept of, of like getting points or like.

Credit as, as you make renewals.

Have, has, have any of you ever been subscribed to, to Audible before?

Like audio? Yes, I'm right now.

Have you ever tried to cancel Audible?

I have in the past canceled.

Okay.

And you actually successfully canceled?

Yes. This is years ago, so I don't remember what the process was like.

Yeah, so Audible is notorious for their.

Cancel flow in that.

It's really good, it's a really good strategy.

I've tried to cancel like I don't.

Know, three or four times and always.

And always they save me. And what they, what they do is they, they're like, hey, are you sure you want to cancel? You literally have 12 credits to use on auto.

On audiobooks, Bozo.

Like what? Like here's a bunch of things that we think you might want to like, you might want to download. If you cancel right now, you lose all of these credits you've accumulated. Like, why don't you go like, not.

The money I've spent.

Right? Yeah. And you're like, well, shoot, like, I do like reading.

I have to keep it.

And, like, yeah, I have been wanting to.

Instead of downloading 12 books and canceling, you're just like, well, all right, fine.

Yeah, you download one or two and you're like, okay, like, I don't have.

Time to, like, go search for 12.

But, like, that one looks cool.

That one looks cool.

You use a couple of your credits. You make a new one every month. And then you're like, okay, they just saved you.

Yeah.

And then you forget about it for another six months. Whatever. And so, like, I've been an Audible subscriber for so long, and I know my wife would probably kill me if.

She knew that you're like, what's the.

Total on this bill? Actually, they actually have a new offer, like the premium Audible subscription, where even if you cancel, you keep all your books downloaded.

Oh, that's. Yeah, you keep your books download, but.

I think you might lose your credits.

I don't know.

Like, you accumulate a new credit to.

Buy a book every month with a subscription.

Yeah. Because Audible, you don't have to have a subscription just to have the app. So, yeah, you keep your books.

Right, Totally. But I guess so. So the point, I think what. What maybe Magic Mind, or like, for.

Example, Recharge does this really well is they have the ability to. To basically create that sort of credit.

Deposit every time you place a renewal. And then in the cancel flow itself or in the portal, you know, you.

Can pop up, like, a message.

It's like, hey, you have $8 in.

Credits to apply towards your next order or a new subscription.

Like, click here to claim it. Or in the cancel folder, like, are you sure you want to Cancel? You have $10 in credits that you'll lose if you cancel.

Why don't we just apply that to your next order instead?

Smart.

So it sort of taps into that.

Loss version because people hate losing money they feel like they've earned.

Yeah, it's true. I did the exact.

Yeah, yeah.

I haven't gotten to that part of the funnel. I've been, like, grinding through books nonstop where I actually went beyond the 12 credits already.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I had to buy more credits, like, yesterday.

Oh, wow.

Funny. Like, I go through phases with it and then other things. It's like I get on a podcast kick.

That's like, exactly. You got to recycle the novelty with different media. And I'm sure these platforms like Audible know that, and they're like, well, yeah.

That'S a whole other topic with subscriptions. I Know, Brian has had, like, little nuggets in the past talking about.

You.

Know, which we don't work a lot in, but, like, the concept of how membership boxes, like, one of the big pulls is like that dopamine hit of novelty and how to bring that into other, like, the surprise and delight is obviously a piece of that. But novelty is, like, a really interesting thing for certain avatars.

I think Butcher got me for, like, a couple years on that with the random meat packages in some boxes.

Oh, that's fun.

Four years ago, though, so I don't know how it is now, but it works.

Just like, open it up and you were like, oh, it had, like.

I'm pretty sure it notified you beforehand. Like, oh, you got a free, like, steak in your next box. Something like that.

Yeah, Butcher box. And they're like, sign up and you'll.

Get free bacon for a year.

Yeah, exactly.

Who doesn't want free bacon?

And then you get it and then you don't finish it, and then that's all wasted money.

I know. Well, I would.

I would finish it in this house. It wouldn't last long.

Jason just finished the bacon at lunch. I smelled it and I went down and I said, did you make me some? And he goes, there's no more bacon.

There's nothing to, like, start a domestic dispute. One spouse not cooking the other one bacon if they're cooking.

Oh, yeah, that's.

I think it was just like the last bit, and I wanted to be like, you can't really hide that. It's not like you sneak a leftover. You feel like you filled the whole house with bacon.

What do you expect?

It's true. It's like the smell of coffee or bacon in the morning, and it's game over.

It's, like, messed up. Save some.

Yeah, that's brutal. Sorry for your loss, Amy.

I know it was sad. He was munching on his cob salad with the bacon, and I was like, there was no way for me to just snag a piece.

Rude.

Yeah.

Well.

I forget how we got to that point.

That was my fault.

You're talking about surprising. You're talking about surprise on your slide, right?

That was the last point, which is basically like, don't assume you need a.

Crazy surprise and delight ratter to retain customers.

Always worth testing and being a little.

Bit more conservative to start. Otherwise, you risk just, like, giving away a bunch of free stuff and discounts for very little upside.

I think Breeze is a pretty good case study for that. For as long as they didn't have any rewards and still don't have any rewards and still showed subscriber growth over, like, the last year, regardless of none of the best practices involved. Like, you don't need a discount, you don't need gifts.

Right.

It'll certainly help or amplify, but totally.

I mean, ultimately, like, you know, the.

Truth is most of retention is product. It's product market fit, and it's getting the initial quantity, timing, like, basically selling.

Plan correct so that people are actually.

Using your product fast enough that they're about out when the next rebuild comes along, and they actually started using it and they like it.

You know, like, that's. You could. You could have super low, super low churn if.

If that was accomplished and the price point was right, you know, for it.

And so the.

These other retention strategies are really amplifiers of what's already working and surprising the light is. Is certainly something that can help a lot. And gifting and all those best practices.

It's just like, when we see brands that, like, we've worked with clients of.

Like, scale to, like, you know, we.

Did $10 million last year and we have no email flow set up, you're like, wow, you know, it's just like, there's really no. So few best practices and, like, product.

And economics and everything makes, like, really can carry you a long way on stuff.

Well, Alyssa, any other thoughts or questions.

On your end or.

Hayley, anything that's kind of come to mind for you?

I think overall, just the idea of simplicity, of, like, are we overthinking this, you know, and are we throwing too much out whenever it's being more mindful about the few things that we do really well?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good reminder.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's.

Go ahead.

Sorry, I was just gonna say, like, I. I wouldn't be too afraid of. Of oversimplifying things. Just generally with E Commerce, like, it's just any business complexity naturally kind of compounds. Like, complexity creates itself.

And so, like, keeping things as simple.

As possible is really, like, harder. Much harder to do.

Yeah, that's really refreshing to hear because. Yeah, it's like that mindset isn't often out there.

No, it's. It's. It's like things just get complex naturally. And so, as you know, in.

In business or in companies, like.

Working for, you know, when you think about.

Like, managing up, when you think about, like, what. What do our higher ups appreciate, like.

Or whatever people appreciate simplicity and ease.

And like, okay, you've.

We've distilled what needs to happen down.

To like the key things. And we're going to focus on that versus trying to just add more noise.

So yeah, I think it's. And the problem is when you have.

A lot of complexity, you just don't know what's actually making a difference. So it's hard to kind of scientifically build and test.

Yeah, totally.

I was just going to ask one question to you, Brian, because we are doing a flow rebuild and I'm trying to set up a proposal that requires a change or at least testing of the welcome offer on site since it's been stuck on that for the last two years. And just inspired by this conversation as well, would like your thoughts on the idea of testing one, the welcome offer only driven from Facebook, which is like $10 off and free shipping on the first subscription order. So that's the first offer to test against the $5 store credit, against the make it obvious offer. Basically just 20% off.

And so your question is.

I guess, feedback if that's a positive direction to go to. I feel like if I pick one intuitively, it's not going to go past the barrier of approval without your advice or like backing behind it. And also some evidence as well.

Sure.

So like the thought would maybe be.

In this situation to. To kind of like ABC test three different. Three different pop ups, three different offers, type three different welcome flow splits.

Yeah. And we'll just start with the. The landing page. Only right now we have pop ups from different traffic sources like Facebook, applovin, Google and then the normal landing page. So I was thinking of testing these three different offers specifically just from the landing page in general, just to see how organic is approaching these.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a worthwhile test.

No, I do. I think it would be interesting to.

It'd be really interesting to see.

Just to set that up.

If we can do it cleanly with Aaliyah, it's like we can cleanly ABC test 33.33-33% and then make sure that people from each one of those pop.

Ups being routed into the correct. Into the correct welcome flow split.

Yeah, I think it's gonna be like significantly easier too because Breeve doesn't have sms. So it's just gonna be email and we just funnel to the right list and split up the.

Yeah, I, I think, I think that would be. That would be really interesting because just like really. I mean if, for example, it's like, let's say we.

We test those three and store credit.

Or.

The sort of state the obvious approach has roughly similar opt in rates and roughly similar opt in to conversion rates. It's like, well, that's nice because now you're saving $10.

Yeah, exactly. Is the one that helps the business more at that point if it's attractive to any customer.

Yeah, like you don't even have to.

There's other factors besides just opt in rate and, and even opt into conversion.

But.

It would be interesting. It would be interesting to look at, to, to.

To look at doing that test. I think that would be really cool.

And at the moment, if whatever you think would be helpful to Alyssa from.

Like adding some extra like, firepower on that idea, if you wanted Slack or whatever, and then I can kind of.

Like, I'll definitely initiate the conversation and tag you and Nick and be like, idea. I think this would be a really great case study too, just for people on subscription. And this is an opportunity to test multiple offers against each other.

That's right. I think that would be a great idea.

Thanks for validating my ideas.

Anything else, guys?

No, thank you.

Of course.

That was a good chat.

Yeah.

These are so cool.

Yeah.

So much to get into. But I think that these little pockets.

Of optimization around subscriptions just makes such a big difference too. Whether it's like the front end discount, whether it's like these surprise and delight.

Or the high lower approach.

Just like, what can we do to keep conversion rate the same, take rate the same, or roughly similar, but just like put more money back in the pocket, not make assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

Yeah.

All right, y'.

All, well, great chatting and thanks for coming.

Thank you for your time. Brian and Bonnie.

Guys in Slack.