Episode 33: Offsite Workplace Events

Welcome to the Workplace, a podcast by Cal Chamber. I'm Erica Frank, Calchamber's executive vice president and general counsel. Back on the podcast today is Jennifer Shaw of the Shaw Law Group. Always a pleasure to have you, Jen.

It's great to be here. Thank you so much.

All right, listeners, today we are going to be talking about the upsides and downsides of off sites or company retreats as they're often called. That. Hey, we're having a corporate retreat. Some of them are in fancy dancy places, Ritz Carlton, Napa. Some are just in a company boardroom. So there's a lot to talk about, right?

Yes.

As we all know, there's definitely good bonding time and team building that can occur on these trips or these meetings. Right. A way to be out of the office. Sometimes there's some competitiveness that goes on, paintball wars and whatnot. There are always some real benefits for companies who are willing to fund these types of outings. However, it seems that there are always risks involved, even when we're on an off site. So that is what we're going to be talking about today.

Yes, it's a very interesting topic, I think, particularly because you're seeing in a good economy where it's hard to hire people, a lot of one upsmanship, a lot of competition among organizations for. Well, we have our off site in Cabo. We go to a ropes course in Tahoe and we rent a fancy chalet. And of course, it all sounds great until something goes wrong.

Right. And that inevitably there's always something that goes wrong. I hate to say.

Well, the main reason, I think, why something goes wrong is because people forget the adage that is so important, which is when you're talking about workplace conduct, it is not where you are, it is who you are with. So they forget when they leave the office or the regular workplace and they get to this beautiful resort or they're in Mexico or they're doing something amazing and they're doing it with people with whom they work, they forget the work rules apply. And organizations often make this complicated by offering food and drink, late night activities. I had one company that had a wet T shirt contest, not the smartest way to go. And they had all the executives lined up, by the way, men and women, so they thought they were okay. Right. They told me when there was a claim that came later. Now, Jen, hold on. The men and the women were doing the T shirts.

So of course we're not discriminating against one or the other. Losing sight of the overarching problem with a wet T shirt Context, Right. In the workplace.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So before we get into some of these dicey issues, let's first at least talk about some of the good. About workplace retreats or off sites. Right. I mean, team building.

Well, and one of the things that's important, I think, is we see a lot of employers who have folks who telecommute.

Okay.

So they don't really interact much with their co workers. So, you know, their supervisor might only see them on Zoom or on Skype. Right. So when you talk about getting people face to face, I love it when I get to meet people face to face sometimes. I've had a 15 year relationship in quotes, you know, with a client where it's all been on phone or email. Great to have that personal connection. So I think that's a huge upside, particularly when organizations are looking so diligently at trying to provide flexible workplaces and ways for people to telecommute and ways for people to have alternative schedules. So I think that's a big benefit is people actually get to see each other in person. Level setting. Because the boss isn't really your boss when you're both on the same team to see who can make the best cake.

Right, right, right.

So you know when you're doing a little fake cake wars and it's you and your boss against somebody else and their boss, all of a sudden you're just four people having fun. And that kind of sort of let down our hair a bit. Let those sort of lines of authority disappear. I think we can really develop a stronger relationship with each other, which can be more trusting and lead to better work relationship. There's all sorts of statistics out there about that.

So that's the good.

Yes.

Where do things start to go awry? Is it when we start to broaden these off site work retreats to include extravagant accommodations? When we start to include, like you said, drinks and generally alcoholic beverages, when we start to make them overnight excursions, Is that when we start to see some of these issues arise?

Well, there's no question that the example you gave at the beginning of the podcast about being in a boardroom is going to be a lot less risky than if we fly someone on a private jet. You know, we fly our top 20 executives on a private jet to Cabo. Right. And that's just because of what we're gonna do in Cabo. We're gonna swim, which requires most of us to wear bathing suits or nothing, which is a problem. Right. There's gonna be drinking, there's gonna be eating, there's gonna be late night activities, and people let down their hair a little too much right Now, I gotta tell you, not everybody has this reaction. I'm not saying that just because you have 30 people who get invited to an off site for all 30 of them are going to misbehave. Right. Most of the time you have one or two. Right. It's not that the whole crew's gonna screw it up. It's that there's gonna be a couple people who, by the way, are probably on the edge when they're at work. Right. You Rarely see a 180. You rarely see someone who's really well behaved and really professional, really respectful at work, and then they lose it at the off site. It's usually that there's been somebody sort of on the fence in the first place, and then you put them in that type of an environment. And this is not in any way a judgment of people's desire to have fun or desire to drink. It's nothing like that. Just that when you're leading one of these retreats, you have to think about all of these things. What are the accommodations? Are spouses involved? If spouses are not involved, that can almost create more of an issue. Right. Who gets invited? A lot of my clients say, well, we won't invite the admin staff, because, you know, then it might get crazy. I've seen the exact opposite. The admin staff behaves perfectly appropriately. It's the executives who have a little power and think that they're sort of above things sometimes who forget where they are. And again, it's not a criticism, it's a very understandable reaction.

Well, I think what's ironic with all of this is one of the reasons why companies do offset retreats is to get their employees in a different environment, is to get them in a more relaxed atmosphere so that they are able to think a little bit more freely and be away from the confines of the workplace. That professionalism.

Absolutely.

They're not dressed in their suit and tie. They're much more relaxed. But the drawback to that is, do they get a little too relaxed or they forget where they are. They forget, you know what? I might be at the Ritz Carlton sipping a Mai Tai, but I'm still working well.

And the thing is, I think most people can handle that transition. Most people understand, look, I'm still at work. The EVP of HR is right across the table for me. You know, I'm getting it. I'm aware. I understand what I'm Doing I. Sometimes the spouses don't behave appropriately. Sometimes you bring the children and the children don't behave appropriately. There are often situations where unfortunately I've had where the guest the person brings is not the spouse. And now lots of people know that there's something going on.

I could see that being a problem.

And it could be a problem, right? So it's not that we shouldn't do these off sites. It sort of reminds me when the whole sexual harassment issue came out. People were saying, well, I guess we can't hug in the workplace. No, you can hug in the workplace, do it appropriately, know who you're hugging, be smart. It's the same way with these retreats. Do I want people not to do retreats? Of course not. We should absolutely do them. If you're the type of organization where you could benefit from something like this, go on a whitewater rafting trip, go to a ropes course in Tahoe, go to Cabo, but don't set all you can. Drink beer at 7:30. Right. Don't have a wet T shirt contest. Be smart about the activities that are being planned. And I will tell you, I think the best investment if you're going to have one of these off site activities is to have a company run it. You don't try to figure it out all yourself. You don't have people vote on what they want to do. You hire a professional to come in. This is the type of employees we have. This is what we do for a living. This is who our client base might be. What can you put together for us? That's a really good suggestion because it's money well spent. If you're already going to spend the money on the hotel and the food and the drink and the activities, get the pros in.

Now one thing, I mean, we're spending a lot of time on behavior, right? And the misbehavior that can happen. But when you talk about a ropes course or whitewater rafting, the lawyer in me right away goes, oh my God, liability for injury.

Absolutely. So then you have to decide, is this a voluntary activity or are you requiring everybody to come? Now remember this, if you require everyone to come and you have non exempt employees, you're paying them.

Oh, absolutely. Right, right.

And this is what people don't think about. Are you kidding me? I'm paying for you to go to Cabo and now I'm paying for you while you're in Cabo. You gotta be kidding me right now. But that's what happens, which is why some Employers keep it at that higher level. Workers comp is a real risk. I gotta tell you though, I just had a call with a client and her biggest worry was a workers comp issue. And I literally had to say. And maybe I was a little too spicy about it, but I said, that's the least of your concerns. Right. You're looking at wrongful termination, age discrimination, failure to accommodate, retaliation, workers comp. Bring it on.

Right, right.

Because compared to the other things we're talking about, that's the way to go. So part of me feels like the workers comp is certainly a risk and you should have people sign waivers. Just because they go to Tahoe doesn't mean they have to go to the ropes course and they can sign a waiver absolving the company of liability. It's not gonna work for workers comp, though. The bottom line is it's a work related event.

And to me, that's kind of a buzzkill. That's kind of a really.

Well, the company's gonna make you do it anyway. Like, the ropes course is gonn course.

But really, guys, like you're telling me we're gonna be doing this event with a ropes course and I could fall.

To my death and you're making me sign my life away? Yeah, I get it. I'm totally with you. And lawyers are kind of buzzkills sometimes, right? So, you know, the truth is not us.

Not us.

Well, of course not us, but everybody else. What I try to do is tell the client, look, I'm just gonna tell you your risks. I'm not telling you how to run your business. Look, I can barely run my own business, so let's just be honest about what I can offer. What I can offer is some legal advice and some pros and cons and some risk assessment. But you've got to make the decision. And I think what happens sometimes is the people at the very top of an organization don't know their employees very well, and they want to use one of these off sites to get to know them. But you're basically going in blind. If that's the case. You need to be interacting with your employees every day, all year long. And then when you go to an off site, it's just enhancing the relationship rather than trying to use it as a way to get familiar with your employees. Because you may learn a lot of things that you don't know how to deal with on the fly.

Yeah, that's a really good point. You don't want to be surprised, especially when you're in Cabo.

Yeah. And what do you do with a person who says, hey, you know, I want to go to Cabo, but I have a fear of flying, so I'd like you to rent me a limo to drive me down there.

So what do you do in that situation, Jen?

You got to think about that may be their preferred accommodation. Right. But, oh, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna rent you a limo. But I can put you on the bus. The bus isn't gonna be much longer. Yeah, you can have a choice, you know, you don't get your preferred accommodation, so all of a sudden the person's gonna be okay with Southwest?

Well, one of the things I was thinking too is can they call in to participate? Sure. I mean, is there a, you know, there is a work component to some of this.

There is a work component to it, but there shouldn't be too much of it. I mean, the most successful off sites are really not about strategic planning. If you wanna do strategic planning, get your top execs and a consultant, sit in a room for three days and do your strategic plan. The point of these retreats and off sites, in my opinion, if you're going to invest the money, it's to enhance the connection so that when people are working together, they are more collaborative, more respectful, more cooperative. And you only get that if you really think through. All right, what activities am I doing? It shouldn't be too much work.

I love that. More collaborative, more respectful, more team building. Right. And that, I think hits home.

No, I think it does too. And this is one of those situations where I think employers intent can sometimes not come through the way they had hoped. Right.

Yeah. And I think actually the event itself, the accommodations, sometimes you lose sight over what the main purpose is because there's a concern about, okay, we want to have it at a nice place. Well, what are we going to do with staff? What are we going to do during the off time? Are we going to allow spouses to come? Are we going to allow kids to come? And I think to your point, we lose sight all of these concerns. Well, what about a worker's comp injury? You know, what about behavior? Losing sight of the main reason to do these off site retreats. Right.

The only reason to do them is because you care about your team. Working as a team, frankly, if that's not the goal, it's a waste of money and you're buying a lot of potential liability. So I think there's sort of a hot topic these days, like, I want to buy this, I want to buy that and I want to have an off site retreat. Okay, well let's really think through which is why I love the idea of having a consultant. What type of retreat is right for our group? Where can we do it Even geographically if you have people spread out around the country where does it make the most sense? Where can they fly into that won't have too many connections. So there needs to be a lot of thought put into these events and what I've seen in my experience is the more thought that is put into them the better the result.

Well Jen, I think we're going to end here because it's a great place to end. Thank you again as always. It's a pleasure to have you.

I love being here.

Thank you so much and thanks for joining us at the workplace. Please comment, share and subscribe to Cal chambers podcast@calchamber.com.

Sam.