Episode 99: Returning Remote Workers to the Office

Welcome to the Workplace, a podcast by KAL Chamber. I'm Erica Frank, executive vice president and general counsel at the California Chamber of Commerce. And back on the podcast today is Jennifer Shaw of the Shah Law Group. Welcome, Jennifer.

Thank you. Hello, everybody.

And just to continue our dialogue that we have started since the COVID 19 pandemic hit California in the workplace is initially we talked about the remote work obstacles. Then we started talking over the summer about return to work issues. And it's now November and we're still talking about return to work issues. But it's a little bit different today. Today we want to talk about offices that are open that are encouraging employees to come back to the office that have taken all of the necessary safety protocols, what these employers, what challenges these employers are now facing. So, Jennifer, I know that you've had many clients who have gone back to the office. You know, we've had a lot of members who have contact the helpline as well. And you know, there's been a lot of struggle. Some employees are excited to come back. Some employees don't want to come back. Some employees that do come back are getting frustrated because other employees aren't following the rules or what are you seeing?

Well, it's so interesting, Erica, because I think for a lot of us we thought, okay, when everybody gets to come back to work, it's going to be simple and that's going to solve a lot of our problems and we can just sort of take a deep breath and everything will be okay. Unfortunately, it's been much different than that. What we are seeing a lot of are folks who don't want to come back to work. Right. We're seeing the mask police, people who feel like they've got the rules memorized, they know what's going on and the employer's not doing it correctly. We're seeing employees talk about unionizing. So private sector workforces that are non union, certain employees are now saying, well, the only way we're going to be protected is by having a union. Many unions are now looking at this as a potential opportunity for them to increase their membership and their reach. So there's a lot going on with this return to work that I think many of us were so focused on just getting through day by day that we didn't think about it Right.

And I think as time has passed, many employers are now having a challenge getting their employees to come back. Yes.

And people are thinking about everything from I have asthma, so I can't wear a mask. So therefore you can't let me Come back to work to I have anxiety, so I can't come back to work to, well, I know I'm out of my family's first coronavirus response act, emergency fmla, but my kid is still out of school, and I need an accommodation, which of course, is not an accommodation because there's no medical issue there. But people are just looking for any way to stay home. And then you have this group of people who. Who are looking for any way to come back to work because things are not going well at home. Whether it's domestic violence or child abuse or just isolation, many folks live at home by themselves, and they need that interaction. So they want to be back in the workplace, and that may not be safe.

And I think also what compounds the discussion or in some instances the struggle is you hear in the news about companies that have decided to go 100% remote, that were never planning to return or have decided to go remote until, you know, well into 2021. And what I think folks need to keep in mind is, you know, every workplace is going to be different. And for some of those companies, at least from what I've seen, the type of work that's required, that fits their culture, that fits the. The culture that attracts employees that will go to so many of those organizations. The, you know, working from home and remote working works for them. You know, I hate to use that word so many times, but that doesn't mean that it's going to work in every organization. And there's also been a lot of stories in the news about employees burned out because working from home means you're on zoom calls all of the time. Like you said, Jennifer, many employees, mentally, it's not good for them to be home. There's no separation between work and home and all of the struggles there. And for some departments, even, we can even parse it down to departments. There are certain departments that will just function more efficiently when people are back in the office and collaborating.

There's no doubt about that. And what employers are facing is employees disputing that fact. Like, employees think, well, no, I don't.

Need to be there.

I'm just as effective when I'm on Zoom. All right. But I can tell you from my own experience, I have employees who have worked at home since March. I have employees who have worked with me in the office since March. I am not a good at home worker. So I wanted to be in the office where I have that really clear delineation between I'm at work and I'm at home and I have a much more collaborative relationship with the people who are working in the office. It doesn't mean I don't love our folks who telework. I do, they're amazing. But we can't connect as well on video. There's just no matter how hard I try, we have weekly meetings, we play games, I send them gift cards, I try to do everything I can, but the reality is seeing somebody in the flesh. To me, I was thinking about this idea. I have a girlfriend who has a long distance marriage where she works in New York and her husband works in Beverly Hills. And she was saying because of all the COVID travel, they haven't been able to go and see each other as often as they wanted to. And she said, I cannot tell you what we've tried to do on Zoom and how we've tried to keep our connection and writing real letters to each other. It's not the same. She finally got to see him last weekend and she said, okay, this is why I've been depressed for six months. I get it. Because I didn't get to have the personal connection. There is something to that. On a team that needs to work collaboratively. I just don't think that can be disputed.

And I also think some of us are better at self motivating than others. And I think at the beginning of the pandemic, everybody was very self motivated. It was a very scary time. Everybody was scrambling. But it gets tiring to stay self motivated all of the time, particularly if that's just not your personality trait and everybody's different.

It gets more challenging. And I think it's one of those things that once folks start to come back to the office, they might recognize and get a little bit more spark back into their step of, okay, now I get it. This is helping me stay a little bit more motivated. But not to lose sight of what we wanted to talk about today because we can go on and on about all of the different situations. What do we do, Jennifer, when someone just doesn't want to come back to the workplace? And we did a podcast before where we talked about a reasonable accommodation and when there is a legal obligation to accommodate someone, which could mean remote working to someone just digging their heels in and saying, I'm not comfortable. And that's all that they say, I'm just not comfortable coming back.

Well, I'm going to sound harsh when I say this, but they're making a choice about whether or not they want to have their job. You know, once you go through, there's no accommodation issue, there's no medical issue, there's no reason other than I just don't want to. To me, it's just like the meal period analysis. People ask me, what do I do? My employees won't take their meal periods. Okay, well, guess what, you're in charge. Don't let the fox guard the chicken. Cooperation. If you expect them to take their meal periods, then they got to do that or there's a consequence. And at a certain point you've got to tell employees, look, you can say whatever you want to say, but if I've decided I need you to come back, you need to come back and that's what's going to happen. And you are choosing not to continue working in this role if you refuse to do that. I think employers are very hesitant and reticent to do that, but I don't think they should be because you have a business to run. And the point you made earlier I think is often missed. This has not been a two week problem. I remember when I found out that Ella's school was closing. I picked her up at school on a Friday and they told us, we're not going back to school on Monday. I literally thought to myself, oh, okay, that'll probably be a couple of weeks. I had no idea. She just went back to school a couple weeks ago. Right. So I think the problem is a lot of us looked at it with this sort of short term. All right, I can deal with the problem. Employee who refuses to work or isn't as.

Productive or has a bad attitude. That's all right. It's only going to be a couple of weeks. We know this is stressful. When they get back to work, it'll all get solved. But now for some of us, we've got a petulant 2 year old at home who's had their way since March and doesn't want to come back. Well, in my opinion, there's only one way to deal with that. You got to put the hammer down. You got to let people know what the expectation is and they make a choice.

And I think for many employers listening, this is a breath of fresh air.

To hear, you know what, it just has to be done. And it doesn't mean you're being mean or disrespectful. I want you to do it in the kindest, most empathetic way. But at a certain point you're going to have to say, listen, you have a choice. I'm giving you a week to make this decision. But if you don't choose to report to work by Monday, I'm going to have to find someone to replace you. And of course, without the federal unemployment, $600 a week, it's a much bigger decision for people than it was a few months ago.

So now, what about. This is a great question that I believe came up when you were speaking at the HR Symposium the first week of November, Cal Chambers virtual event. What happens when we're back at work and there's the employee who is making sure and reminding all the other employers to employees to wear their masks? So this is just an employee reminding his or her colleagues and finally says to hr, whomever I am so stressed out. This workplace is not safe because nobody is wearing their mask. And it's an exaggeration, but I'm having to constantly remind employees to wear a mask. I'm stressed out. I want to work from home.

Okay, so let's break that down because there's a couple different things. First of all, your house better be clean. And what I mean by that is you better be following the rules. So even though you have Bossy Brenda or bossy Bill talking about the masks, if they're right, you got a problem. That's protected activity. So if people are supposed to be doing something they're not doing and you're not enforcing it, but the employee feels like it's his or her responsibility or obligation or desire to do so, you got to fix that. So once you know that you're fine and that they're bringing up issues that really aren't legitimate or that are overblown, I think the first thing to do is to sit down with the employee and say, listen, we know this is difficult. There's no legitimate reason for you to work at home. If you feel that we're not doing something we're supposed to be doing, we need you to let us know. And we'll be happy to evaluate that and take the steps we need to take. But we're not gonna go from 0 to 60 in 2.5. You don't get to say I'm stressed because people aren't wearing masks. Therefore, I get to be at home. There's a lot of discussion and a lot of analysis that has to happen between those two things.

I think that is absolutely fabulous, Jennifer. And again, two great situations to talk about that we could talk about for days. And quite honestly, we might be back here talking about this topic again, because things just continue to evolve. This is like we've talked about a situation that none of us have ever experienced. Before. So there are going to be new situations cropping up.

There definitely will be, Erica. And the other thing that I have really come to learn, I need to hear things a few times before they sink in. And I think the folks on the podcast are in the same role. Many of them are grabbing this podcast in between conference calls. They're scrambling. They're trying to get the kid either online or dropped off at school. They're taking care of their elderly parent who can't go to the grocery store. So you know what? I think part of the community service that the Cal Chamber does by having this podcast is reminding people, you know what we can't expect, that if they hear it one time, they're going to get it. It's too much. It's just information, data, life overload.

Well, thank you, Jennifer, and it's so nice to always be able to have you on the podcast. And thank you all for listening to the workplace. Please subscribe, share and comment about Cal Chambers podcast by visiting calchamber.com.