Build The Perfect Hiring Funnel

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Hey Kevin, do you know anything about hiring people?

I've learned a little bit over the years.

You've.

I mean you. One of the things I really admired about you when we first met was that you had a virtual team that still had like a culture and still worked well together and had defined roles and you were. I really learned a lot from your example. So I'm excited to see see what you've been kicking around. Do you need to share your screen or do you just want to walk us through your model?

I'll just talk through it.

All right, cool. I'd love to hear.

So.

First, there's likely two groups of people listening right now. So group number one is all the people that never hired anybody yet or you tried and it didn't work out. So that's probably the majority of people in this group. And everything I'm going to go through is like super relevant, probably change your life. Second group is those that have success with hires and want to get better at it. So you're going to just like pick up some like valuable like strategies and tactics you just immediately put into use to really elevate your building out your team. So those are two groups. The topics we'll go through is first is for that first group we really need to look at the mindset around hiring because there's a lot of baggage that comes with hiring people that we got to address first. Then we'll talk like who to actually go out and hire and then where to find where and how to find your ideal team members. And this is like the secret sauce I figured out over the years is the automated hiring funnel that does all the work to actually find that ideal team member and have them like really interested to be a part of your company. And then if we have time, we can talk a little bit about how to manage people once you bring them on board.

Beautiful. Love it.

So when it comes to hiring, the reason this is extremely critical is you. Building a team is almost always a requirement to achieve both the financial freedom and, and absolutely the time freedom you like, deeply desire for your business. So if you don't build a team, the financial and time freedom is most likely not going to happen for yourself because without it, your business is just going to over time run your life and make you miserable and burn you out. Also, it's critical if you ever want to eventually sell your business is there needs to be a team that does the work, not you. Otherwise you don't really have a business. You just have a, an income that pays you well. So that's why building a team is critical. And there's three mental roadblocks almost everybody runs into going down this path. The first one is it is going to scare the crap out of you because it's a, it's seen as a huge financial risk that you're taking on. You deeply doubt if you and your business is going to be ready for it. And all you can see is what if it fails? And I'm going to fail at doing it because I've never done it before. So it's likely I'm going to fail. And that is completely normal. I felt that way, Ryan's felt that way. Everybody else has built a team, has felt that way in the beginning. So nothing wrong with that. That's just like what's by default there. Also what we all believe in the beginning is, man, nobody can do this as good as I can do it. And that is just again a default belief, like, I'm good at this. Like, how can somebody else be as good as me at doing this? And that's just a trap that keeps you stuck from doing anything. So what is going to happen is, guess what, they won't be as good as you at the, at, at the beginning. So guaranteed they will not be as good as you. Nothing wrong with that. So if you go in expecting that going in they won't be like, won't be as good as you. You're not going to view it as a disappointment or failure when that's the reality that shows up. If you think they're going to be as good or better and they don't like instantly like, this is a failure. I failed. This is the wrong person and you're going to like repeat the same mistake over and over again.

I am already feeling guilty and we're, we're four minutes in and I'm like, oh, yep, I've done all of these things.

We all have. Like, everybody that's built a team has made all these mistakes. I'm just, I'm very good at like, seeing the big picture and identifying the key, most important points and like, condensing it down into simple strategies. So then what you're looking for is if they can actually do the work and they're good at learning from your feedback. If they have both of those qualities, then they are going to quickly get better at it. And soon they're going to be as good as you at doing it and pretty. And eventually they'll become better than you can ever be at doing it.

Than you have been, because this is what their, their specialty is.

So that's one.

So hold on. I. The notes that I have are. It's gonna scare you. They're not gonna be as good as me. And if they get better than me, then they'll. First of all, I won't, I won't have purpose. And two, they'll leave. So that, that's, that's what has come up for me in the past. Well, I'm guilty and I'm guilty of all of these.

So now the last point is there's two, like, secret purposes of your first hire that nobody really talks about. So purpose number one is to actually hire your first person and cross that critical milestone because you will never replace yourself out of every role in the business that you shouldn't be doing until you actually build up the courage to go out and hire somebody. So otherwise, until you hire somebody, you're just going to be doomed yourself to a freedomless life that is dominated by every constraint in your business, which will eventually lead to your burnout and likely the collapse of your business. So like one, actually hiring somebody is going to set you on that path of freedom and success.

Also with your first hire, if you screw everything up and will still be a success because you actually took this like, critical, important leap forward and accomplished this first goal. Like that's what you should view your first hire is not that it work out or not, but you actually made the leap forward and something as soon as super scary and intimidating and you did it and you're going to learn from it. If you do like follow the things we're going to talk about, it's likely to be a huge success. But even if it's not, you've like made a huge leap forward. So that's one. Like the secret purposes of hiring your first person is to actually hire your first person. And then the second thing is you're actually going to be on the path to freeing up your time, your mental energy, your focus, your creativity, that you can now invest all that into making a much bigger impact in your business while having a life you love. Because, like, we both come from Dan Sullivan's world of unique ability is a core concept. So you have a unique ability, like, a few things that you're really great at. Everything else, you're either adequate or horrible at, but there's other people out there that are great at the things that you're not. So, like, in. In my agency world, a huge.

Turning point is when I figured out how to go out and hire people that are excellent and love cold calling businesses to set appointments. Like, I would never actually pick up a phone and cold call a business ever in my life. But the first person we hired using our automated hiring funnel, she'd been doing it for 20 years. She's like, world class at it. She absolutely loves the challenge of, like, within minutes, being able to build a rapport with somebody that's never talked to her, have them see an opportunity of what we have to offer and say yes to set an appointment and get that win and do that over and over. So in her first day, she booked two appointments. After working three hours in her first week, she booked like 12 or 15 appointments. And, like, and we sign up two clients. Prior to that moment, we would average one to two clients a month. And all of a sudden, in one week, we just signed up two clients and now have a process in place that we replicate that over and over again. Because that's what her unique ability is doing that one specific skill. So there's no matter what you don't like doing in your business, there's people out there that absolutely love doing that and want to become be in a company that appreciates that and creates an environment for them to thrive and grow at what they love doing.

Yeah. So a great example of this is I still to this day can't understand why anybody wouldn't love being on stage. And. And people tell me, like, how do you. How do you do that? Like, how do you go on stage? I'm like, how do you not? Like, there's a stage there and people watch you and then they clap. Why would you not want to run up there?

But there are people on my team who love organizing events and never want to be on it. And I'm like, why in the world would you want to organize an event? There's so much work. And they're like, yeah, isn't it great? And so I like one of the Reasons I like this term that I've been using lately of collaborative capitalism is because the more I go into what Kevin is talking about, where you define your own unique ability and you bring it together with somebody else's unique ability, it's almost like the world has ethically conspired for us to collaborate with one another.

Yeah. Yeah. So a couple things I've learned over the years when it comes to hiring is I remember way back in the beginning of my first company, so, like, this was, like, 2002 or something. It was just me and my business partner for a number of years, and.

We were doing everything. So we, like, knew we needed somebody to handle customer support because neither one of us wanted to do it. Like, we really sucked at it. But it's something that has to happen, and we just, like, agonize over. We're not ready for this person. I don't think we can afford this person. Like, all these, like, thoughts I talk about were, like, right there. And then when we went out and hired her, our first customer support person, Meredith, it was a total game changer in her business because she loved doing that. She, like, took it over, made it, like, ownership of that role. So what I've learned over the years is that first hire in a business is always a game changer for you and the business that usually more than paid for itself. So instead of it being this expense, it actually was a great investment we just made in the business. And every good hire I've made over the years, especially, like, when I look at my current company, when we do our quarterly planning and we had a great hire, we always wish we made that hire sooner rather than waiting for whatever time that we waited to make that leave. So, great hire, we wish we did it sooner. So now we always are. Like, how can we? Like, what's the next key, people? And let's get a little bit out of our comfort zone to go find and bring that person on. And then also every bad hire, in hindsight, we wish we would have cut ties sooner. Like, one of my great. Like, there's a saying, like, your greatest strengths are also your greatest weaknesses. So I'm a highly loyal person, both me and my business partner, especially me. So loyalty and optimism are two of my things. So, like, that's great as a leader, to be very loyal and a highly optimist has seen the best, but that it creates this huge blind spot of I'm loyal and seeing all the ways something could work out with somebody that's absolutely not the right fit. So I always wish we like would have cut ties sooner if as soon as we like realize that this is the right one. So now we just put things in place to compensate for our blind spots in the business.

I'm guilty of. It's like, it's like we're twins. Kevin I think these are just common.

Yeah but the more you can be present to what's actually real if this is just what's going to be there by default you can plan around it and plan for success by addressing these. So when it comes to who to hire there's.

Two different routes you can use and we use a combination of both. One is just finding that if it's like a skill or role that you can outsource.

So like somebody to do graphics. Like we're not going to have somebody on our team that we're going to pay to do graphics because if we need somebody we're just going to go find somebody that's good at that or copyrighted. So when we need a new landing page created to split test for our in our marketing system while we eventually have have found this copywriter on upwork that's asked what his expertise is and he like does the copywriting cost us like $400 to build us a new landing page that we split test or a content writer or or paid media. So there's that category is like a highly specific skill or role that you might be easier in the beginning to just outsource versus like a team member that you bring on board on your team. So you're for people's first hire is probably somebody that's going to do customer support and or like a virtual assistant that can like handle a lot of like daily task work that needs to get done. In that case you would likely want to hire like a part time team member that starts out part time and can grow into a full time role down the road.

I've experienced in my in in we almost take this as a rule now that our best hires, every single person has has like tested something first. Like they've done they we've, we've done something where we've tried working with them first and then we brought them on full time. And what I'm hearing you say is like sometimes those roles are like very defined tasks that they're doing and then they work themselves into something that's a little bit more established. There's, there's a lot of questions in the comments about should you hire full time or part time. Your first hire, should you do a va or somebody who's local, like what should you do? And my advice is to just do something that is small and easy for you to do and then that can grow into something else. Is that kind of what you're observing as well, Kevin?

Oh, this is going to be your first hire. You're like kind of growing this business. Early stage is I would sit down and look at what's consuming the majority of your like a big chunk of your time, your attention and your energy.

That you also really don't want to be doing. So it's also like a lot of your frustration and dread. Like what is that role? It might be like customer support and just like dealing with that. Or it might be like all these like daily tasks that have to get done the business. But make me do a bunch of daily task work every day, like I'm going to be miserable and I'll do everything possible to not do those things. It's like, it's like, it's like taking a.

A summary of like what do you do in your day and week and just start doc. Creating a list of what are those things and then look at that and like figure out well, what's the thing that would be the biggest impact for you personally if you didn't have to do that. It would really free up both time and your like mental capacity to put to what you really want to be doing to grow the business.

So I'm just going to publicly say this just because I feel the impulse to. My biggest thing right now that I want to be free up because it would just open up. A next level for me is cold acquisition funnels. Somebody who is just a master at cold acquisition of leads and front end sales. If all day they could come up with new hooks and angles and offers and upsells to be able to acquire more front end people at scale. That frees me up to do more of this kind of stuff, which is what I really like to do. So I just wanted to put that out that I'm very aware of what that is. And this is a blind spot for me because I think no one can do it as well as me, which isn't that good anyway. Like no, nobody can. Nobody will. No, there's nobody who will do this for my business. So this is a blind spot for me and this is what I'm working through as well.

Great, great.

Well now there's like, there's two places that I have learn like where I get people from. So the first one were in my previous company like pretty Much everybody who hired came from either my personal network of people I knew or my audience and customer base that I had. And I would create a, a role.

And like write a sales letter selling people on that role. Like here's the opportunity to be a part of our company, what we're about, what this rule has to offer you, what is expected of you. And it's like a sales letter that I just like email out to our, our email list. And then we get all these like applications coming in that like fill out a, like an in depth questionnaire and, and all this stuff. So that's one my first company. That's where everybody came from. So like what you're looking for that might be like where you'd probably like start with is because I've learned if you have a, as your audience grows, you have people on there from all walks of life with all kinds of expertise. Regardless of what you, you, you sell, these are still people that have jobs in life and skills and expertise. But now my current business, well we're in an agency so I don't have this big audience of like people. So I learned how to become good at using job boards to find people. So if it's a US based role, indeed we found to be the best place to find people indeed.com and if you want like an, an overseas virtual assistant, then we just use online jobs ph to find people that we want in a, like a, an overseas role. And for this, when you're using these like job boards, they have no idea who you are or a company. So there's like no established relationship. The great thing with your audience is they're already bought into what you're about as a company and what you're about as like a leader. And they are, they bought in and like love that. So like sue, who she was a, a customer of ours and then we put out we're looking for like a, a writer and she like was one of the people that responded and signed up and all that. So that's how we, we build it because they're like passionate about what you're about. But when you're doing job boards, that doesn't exist. So you have to kind of create it. That's where this automated hiring funnel is like the secret sauce that makes it all happen for you.

Makes sense.

So did you say that indeed was the best place that you're finding us based?

Yes. Huh.

That surprises me.

Why is that?

I've just never used it. But at the same time I'm sitting here going well, where would we go? And it's always been like outreach or network. I've. I guess I've always had a blind spot that using public places was a bad idea because like ziprecruiter is just crap.

We had very little successes indeed. Is like night and day difference.

That's so interesting. I'm so glad you told me.

And there's what like if you're looking for like a customer support person or maybe some other roles.

What like a good person is likely somebody that's like a stay at home mom that wants a part time role that she can work from home and, and have flexibility in your schedule. Well, I mean it's kind of different now, but where she could take her kids to school and pick them up at the end of the day. And there's starting to become more specialized job boards for stay at home moms. When we tried it out in the past like a year or two ago, they weren't as good. But I've seen more and more like starting to pop up and become more popular. So that might be like people that want to dig into the research and find. All right, here's some. The current stay at home job boards for moms. And we can see which ones are like good now. But by default our go to is always.

Indeed. And then we also will post the role on upwork to see what we can get from upwork as well.

Go ahead.

So why do you also use upwork when you're using Indeed? Because those seem like polar opposites of each other.

Upwork can be hit or miss because those are. They're already like working from home. They're like independent contractors looking to get gigs for whatever their specialty is. So they may or may not be great team members if that's what you're looking for.

Because they might just want to. They love like the variety of doing different stuff for different people and they, they've like become good at using upwork to do that. But there's also a whole lot of those people that hate the grind of always looking for your next gig that you're doing work for. And they love the security and future that you give them by doing what they do just for you. And they're great starting out part time and expand into something bigger. So it's like hit or miss if you can find that person that's actually looking for a home versus they love the variety of the independent contractor work.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me. I'm fascinated to hear about the hiring funnel when I hear funnel. That to me means like there's step, like there's steps along the way which to me means you've got a process for taking this wide world, crazy chaotic world and bringing them closer to finding ideal people. If I'm right, would you share a little bit about that process?

Absolutely. And this was a, a game changer in our business because before I was so used to like hiring people from my audience or network and and I just have em go to sales page, fill out a like in depth questionnaire and interview like the top people. But now like I don't have that. So like we were trying to define in our cases trying to find an appointment setter because what makes success in our our businesses having appointments on the calendar with business owners that we can sell our service to. So if you don't have appointments then you like you don't have a business. And we really struggled with that and we tried to use upwork to find this person and that was like always like failed. Tried to go through my network and it failed. And then.

Like we're friends with Ari Meisel, he's a New York guy so he's a like automation master. And he like walked us through his automated hiring funnel how he built a team of like a hundred plus virtual workers over a course of a year all in like different specialties for his virtual outsource business. And it said like the whole secret is this automated hiring funnel. And like like it just blew my mind like oh this is like the missing piece to find these people that have no idea who we are to filter through them. Because if you posted an ad Online like on Indeed.com, you're going to get hundred or several hundred responses is total overwhelming. So just like a great sales funnel, you take a large group of people and through the steps filter it down. Like they, they opt in, then they read a sales letter, then they buy an entry level product, then they go through some upsells. Then you like watch a webinar to sell a high priced product and you filter a large group of people to find the small group of like ideal ones at the very end. So that's what a hiring funnel does as well. So first is you're posting on the job site a.

In essence like a sales letter for your role and you don't want it to look like a typical like job posting because that's what everybody else does. Like you actually are selling them on the opportunity you have to offer working for you and it really like stands out so that's one is like a great job posting that using like good copywriting to sell them on the opportunity. Then they go and the next step is you send them an email like when they reply on Indeed you can set up like an auto response where it automatically sends them an email to a link to a your hiring funnel. And step one in our case is we ask how much experience do you have in this role? So for like a cold calling appointment setter they need to have at least three or more years of experience. If same thing as like customer service. You want them to have experience because.

It'S way like if they are already like successfully doing a role, the learning curve to get them up and running is dramatically shorter. And if they don't have the experience so we that's one is like how much experience? So if they have enough that's like state step one. If they meet that criteria then the next step that they move on to, they get an email to the next stage and it's like a series of open end or not open a series of multiple choice questions to identify.

How well do they actually know that role.

And then it's going to auto grade them based on their answers to those like handful of questions. I think in our case it's like 10 questions and if they like score 75% or higher, well all right, so this person look like, looks like a, a possible fit and then they upload their resume at the end of that questionnaire and you only look at the resumes of the people that score higher enough.

So now so, so, so I, I want, I want to clarify something. So before they ever even get on your radar or upload their resume, they're going through a questionnaire that filter out the people that are not the right like mindset and the right skill set for the role that you're hiring. Is that, is it my like it's almost like a quiz funnel.

There's two things you're doing. Your first, you're one, filtering out unqualified people so you're not wasting your time with those. And you're also selling the qualified people on the opportunity. So both are like happening as you move through it. And so how much experience. So that's going to remove at least half or more of the people instantly because they're just going to randomly be like applying to roles on. Indeed. So they, they worked in a retail store so they think they like have sales experience.

Completely irreverent to what we're looking for.

Yeah, you get rid of those and that, that Eliminates like at least half the applicants which already makes your life easier.

And then the next one is like a series of like simple questions that somebody has done this role over a long period of time, could answer successfully. And then upload their resume so down maybe only 10 to 20% of the people. Are you looking at their resume? In my case I just open it up and within 30 seconds I'm making a decision if I want to move them forward or not based on what experience is on that resume. Is it the kind of experience that I'd want them to have or not? And then I move them on to the third stage where they watch a video, like a five minute video that I created selling them on the opportunity as a company that we have to offer the opportunity in this role and what we're expecting them to do. So that way they can self select themselves in or out based on what I'm offering them. And then if they decide like they're still interested then they, there's a couple of open ended questions that they answer that I can read and then there's a test task I give them. So when we hired our customer support person, the task was here is a voicemail from an unhappy client and here is an email from an unhappy client. Record.

The voicemail you'd leave for this, this unhappy person and write the email on how you respond to this and then upload that voicemail and then put in that, that email response and submit it to us. So one, you're hearing how they sound.

How their voice sounds when they talk. Can they handle basic technology to record and upload an audio to the site and what is their thought process on how they're actually responding to this person? Person. And now you have this great data set based on the questions that they answered and then this task that you give them. So like a virtual assistant we had them, there's like a multi step process that needs to happen. Our business, we had it documented out on like a process like a Google Doc of like here's the steps, we just give them that Google Doc and have them submit the outcome that they would do after this like six or seven step process and just see what did they follow it as designed or did they like make mistakes along the way? Like how detail oriented are there? Like so that's what we did like for ba but there's some sort of task that's critical because that's a key defining point to filter out even more people. And at the end you're gonna have like six to eight People that come out of those three steps that you then give them a link to schedule an interview on your calendar. And then I just have a like interview document that I go through the same questions to identify if this is the right person or not. And what's going to. A couple things happen is they've never experienced this process before. So if they're an A player, they're like, you have really elevated your company in their eyes because of what you just put them through. And even if you're like a solo entrepreneur that still like early phases, you're going to look like a highly valuable company that they want to be a part of because of your hiring process that you created.

What I love about all of this is once this is built, the only thing you have to do is show up for really highly qualified interviews. Like all the screening process, which is the hardest part, is taken care of on the automated side. And then.

The only thing you're doing is showing up for that interview with the person who has already met the criteria, watched a filtering video and decided that it was a right fit for them. So you're not selling them on the opportunity, you're not recruiting them, they're showing up on your calendar.

And then the, the funnel can just be running as long as you need it. And if you need to like replace them or anything else, like in our like appointment setting role.

What usually happens is the first one or two people I interview, I'm like, already, like, this is like an ideal fit. Like, if this is the worst I can bring on board, I'm going to be super happy with this one. And then from that point forward, it's always like, can I find somebody even better than that one? And that puts you in a great mindset when you already have found somebody that you would, you'd totally be happy bringing on board when you're doing the next interviews because you're looking for like even better than a great fit. And.

Also if.

I mean there's things I've learned over the time to better. Like we. When you bring somebody on board, usually there's like a trial period of one week or whatever, whatever is appropriate for that role. And we let them know in the interview, like, we'll do this trial just to make sure it's a good fit for you and for us.

And then you just identify what would success look, look like for you in that first week.

And put them through that trial. And if they're not a great fit, well, you just either have the hiring funnel continue on and you just go back and start like moving people through and, and all that. And within a week or or so you can find it the next person or you can have your like second place person. I always let them know if there's somebody else that I would have hired. But I did it because I found somebody better. I let those people know like hey.

Had a lot of response, you would be great for this role but we don't currently have a need for you right now. But that might change here in the near future because they're growing quickly and I kind of put them on like the back burner in case I need to go back to them.

Kevin, what softwares or tools are you using to build the like the first stages of this, like that first part of the process?

Well this is like the frustrating part. Like I created a whole course teaching people how to do this in the agency world and all that. And.

We, the first one we use was like 3, $500 for a one year subscription. All the other platforms are like hundreds of dollars. So it's a like hiring platforms are expensive but we found one that was free called Vervo V E R V O E. But over the past couple weeks they eliminated their free version and that now no longer is like an option. So we're in this like phase of trying to figure out what's a better solution that we recommend to people and we currently don't have that. We currently don't have that, but that's in development.

Well I mean theoretically could you do this with something like a Google spreadsheet or with even like SurveyMonkey is what came to mind for me, which is a couple hundred dollars a year. But it has like smart filtering where if somebody answers this way, this way and this way you can move them to a different page. So theoretically could you do something like that?

And we're looking at Surveymonkey or Jotform, like the form.

Analysis, like they fill out the form, it auto grades them and then it needs to put into like a command style board like a Trello or something like that where you have a deal for a record for each person that you can move them through the different stages. So we're looking at combining a couple tools or there's this whole no code platforms that are out there like bubble. Can we use something like that? So we're still trying to figure it out if people are really interested in this. You're welcome to message me on Facebook or send me an email and I can let you know once we have.

A solution that we are recommending to people.

Great.

Appreciate that and please post in the Facebook group when you've got one as well.

Okay.

Okay, Kevin, we need to wrap here in a couple minutes. So what did I not ask you or do we not get to that we should have carved out time for?

Another thing that.

Plays a big role in us in our business that I would recommend to others is.

The Entrepreneurial Operating System. So there's a great book that you can learn about attraction by Gino Wickman and what he did is he's like been mentored by the top people out there. So like Dan Sullivan, Bruin Harnish.

Lincioni, like all these people and he like took all these different things that like books we've read, things we've learned that we should be doing and condense it down into a simple operating system to run an entrepreneur driven business. So once I made that switch back, I don't know, 2013 I think is when I first came across this stuff and I follow that. It's made a huge difference in my business, in my like entrepreneurial group I'm a part of, we all use that as well. So I would definitely recommend that as a framework that you can use to manage and run your business moving forward.

The Traction model or something specific in that that was, that was particularly helpful.

The whole, like it's a whole framework to manage and grow an entrepreneurial driven business. So the entry point would be the book Traction by Gina Workman and he calls it EOS or Entrepreneurial Operating System.

Beautiful. Kevin, did you.

Go ahead. Another great, great resource that will be very helpful for you is taking the Colby assessment, K O L B E. And it measures how you instinctively take action and also resist taking action. And it's ingrained in who you are. It will, it can't change. And once you know what it is, you can really leverage your natural action taking ways and work around the ways you can't do it. And it becomes really helpful when you start building a team because if you find out what their Colby like profile is and what yours is, there's going to be synergies and conflicts between the two. If you don't know what the conflicts are, it can cause all kinds of problems. So I imagine like Ryan, you're like a high, quick start. So you're all about like, let's just jump in, get started and we'll figure this out later. Or maybe that's right. And a lot of entrepreneurs are that way. But then that creates a, it's a Great superpower because you are always like moving forward but it creates chaos in your wake. And then you have these people around you that are like high fact finder. So they're very like detail oriented. They create structure or I'm a high follow through. So I'm all about like what systems and processes and, and all that. So you.

So like there's. They all fit together. But if you're like a high quick start and it's somebody else's high fact finder, like you're not going to want to know all the details. And you like they drive you insane the way they're operating. And then you drive, you drive them insane because you're moving way too fast without giving them enough information or details that they need. But when you see that you can actually work together from a highly synergistic way and leverage both of yours expertise and natural action taking methods.

Yeah. The story that we like to tell about this is one time for a backroom event. We were going to San Francisco and we were like kind of talking about the different things we could do. And right before I was leaving the office I was, I said, you know, let's I wonder if we could have like dinner in the redwoods. And I left. And that's all I remember. But what Melinda remembers is being told go find dinner in the redwoods. And she spent two days researching if we could have dinner in the redwoods to find that it was illegal. And there's regulations against that and those are protected areas. You can't go in there. And she like came to me all like concerned that I was gonna fire her for bringing this. I was like, I don't even remember saying that.

So we came. What we realized was that when I am in brainstorming mode, people who think in more process are going to take that and put into a process. And so we need to have a communication for when is something a decision and we're moving forward versus brainstorming. And so sue on the team is my resident brainstorm partner. And we get on the phone and we talk for an hour about a bunch of ideas and we the team never knows about most of them.

Yep, that's right. That's right.

Yeah. Like for you it's just like throwing out ideas, not like they're not meant to like be followed through. So you have to like give clarity for your team. Like what's actually like an idea and what's. I guess like you said a decision that we should take action on.

That's right. And in my mind, they're all brilliant and they're all perfect and they're all well thought out. And then the people who are legitimately well thought out end up filtering my ideas and putting them into a process. And that's a, that's a learning process of learning how to work with people, how to, how to work with how you work best. Sometimes it takes six months of working with somebody to really solidify your language and your communication and, and that's all okay.

But we cannot do this game alone with most of the aspirations that we have and we don't really want to. We want to be collaborating and doing good work and bringing that to the world. Kevin, do you do any public content? Do you do anything that, where people can follow you or do you have anything where people could dive into your world a little bit more?

I did create a course teaching this whole like hiring model for agency owners called Simple Agency Sales System. I don't, the person I sold my training company to publishes that. So normally I would like say hey, go get that. It's going to give you everything you need. But without the hiring funnel solution it's not really viable. So other than that I don't really do training or talking or any of that. One thing I wanted to add in, I saw like I saw Rebecca said the hiring funnel blew my mind. So a way to like I guess hack it right now is I would create a two step one where step one is just a simple question of like how much experience and have a couple multiple choice answers like 0, 1 to 2, 3 or like whatever. So that way when the anybody that filled out the experience level that you want to have, like you manually move them to the next stage by sending them an email. The next stage is like a page with the video and the questions below that that you have them do. So just a couple open ended questions and the test tasks that you want them to do and then they fill that out and you're just like manually going through that as well as well as their resume that they upload and then you choose the ones that you want to interview and email them to go interview. So it's more manual work that's happening. But you can replicate what I talk through by kind of simplifying it and just using some basic forms like survey monkey, Jotform or whatever you can replicate that.

Beautiful. I know this is a huge sticking point for a lot of you, like how do you find good help? How do you know even what to ask for? And this clears up a lot of it. So show some love for Kevin. Kevin, you've had a huge impact on my life, my business, my mindset. As we kind of joked about. I probably wouldn't be talking about mindset nearly as much as I do had I not met you in 2008. So thank you for the impact you've had on me and for the impact you're having on entrepreneurs everywhere.

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