Business & Psychedelics: On A Personal Development Trip w/ Rob Dial #TheOnePercent

We are made to create. We are creations ourselves. And our job is to continue creating so that we continue to grow.

Yeah.

At least that's what I believe. But who could, who could, who could trust me? Taking drugs? Businesses are profitable ways to amplify whatever it is that you're bringing to the world. Business is the best way to bring an idea, a product, a project into the world because it can be done profitably, which means sustainably. And we often think that it's a money making machine. Right? Which it is and can be. But the primary purpose of business is to bring something into the marketplace and that realizing that and satisfying the take mentality of I got to get more, I've got to get more, I've got to get more.

Right?

And being on the other side of that is like you. You.

Hire better because you hire people who are a fit for what you're building rather than a fit for who can make you more money. I love money. Money's great. But at some point, if a whole purpose is that you are accumulating fuel rather than.

Deciding where you're going to go, right? And fuel doesn't do much except take up a lot of space and burn quite nicely. But using it to go somewhere is the entire point. And you need fuel, you need money to go somewhere. But if you don't know where you're going or what it's for, you just become the hoarder of a lot of fuel.

It takes one free person to create change. This is the show for them. We are the creators of the free world. This is capitalism.com and we are the 1%.

Hey, a quick note for you Amazon sellers and brands who want to be on Amazon and haven't made it a priority yet. I am often asked about changes with reviews or changes with Amazon terms of service or changes with what's working with ranking and all of that kind of jazz. And I'm proud that I have partnered with one of our backroom members. His name is Jeff. He runs an agency that specializes specifically in optimizing your Amazon presence. So if you're a brand that is neglecting Amazon and you've heard me talking about it and you're like, we know, we gotta get this together, or if you're an Amazon seller and you know you need to turn your attention to audience building and funnels and the stuff that is really gonna grow your company, I would recommend that you give a quick shout out to my boy Jeff at Turnkey Product management. They're@TurnKeyProductManagement.com and as I said, they're in the back room. They work with my team and the rest of the big companies and equity groups that are involved in our little circle. And they're usually ahead of everybody else in terms of what's working, what's compliant, what review strategies are cool and kosher and are actually effective and. And they're not out there hawking a bunch of info products, they're out there actually doing it. So they're an implementation agency that just handles it for people and they run their own businesses, some of which they have built and sold, kind of like yours truly. So I feel really good about partnering with them and recommending the big companies and the brands that I work with to outsource their Amazon management over to Jeff and his team. So if you're looking to add some automation into your arsenal, I would recommend the good folks@TurnKeyProductManagement.com and Jeff and I are on speed dial with each other and are collaborating on what's working. So you're always getting what's the latest and greatest in the Amazon world. So contact those guys if you're looking to outsource, automate and optimize your Amazon presence@TurnkeyProductManagement.com.

Welcome, everybody, to today's episode. Today we're going to talk about psychedelics in business.

Crap. I am not prepared for that.

Yes.

So I thought we were talking about Beanie Babies on ebay.

Well, psychedelics in business. Beanie Baby business on ebay.

The psychedelics. Beanie Baby business on ebay.

Yes.

Yeah, that's what we're calling this episode.

It's real good.

Boom.

So I am at Mr. Ryan Moran's house who owns the 1% podcast. And it's interesting because I've known him for a few years now, and what I've come to realize is that the circle that we kind of roll in, everyone that's entrepreneurs are going through the same, like, ebbs and flows. And it seems like a lot of us are getting into these things called psychedelics, which have a very bad connotation for a lot of people.

Because they think LSD is a bad thing and the government talks about it being a bad thing. But I know with you it's been a little bit of a. I don't want to say passion project, but you're starting to talk about it more. You're starting to be a little bit more open. And for me, I realized that if it's such a massive shift in my life and I run a personal growth podcast. I would be a hypocrite not to talk about it. Right, so with you.

They'Ve heard you from at least one, if not two episodes that we've done together. So they know a little bit about you, but tell us about you, how you got to where you are. And then also let's talk a little bit about psychedelics and how those came to, you know, be a part of your life.

Okay, so we'll try and we'll try and catch people up to speed on who I am in 30 seconds. I'm an entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur. My business is capitalism.com. i run a podcast media company and also do training for entrepreneurs. And I think entrepreneurship is really a path to personal development. And kind of pretty much everything is personal freedom, Right? Personal freedom, yeah.

If we talk about psychedelics, that's a route to personal freedom, personal development. If we're talking about money, that's a route like we are all after. We're not after these things outside. We're actually after a feeling and the development of ourselves. Correct.

Yeah.

So I have noticed in my own life kind of a trend of bucking the system. So I. The first one was money. I don't want to have a 9 to 5 job. I don't want to live a corporate life. Then it was religion. I was a very conservative Christian, all in, born again Christian.

For 25 years of my life. And I left that, which was a very, very painful process and is also part of this whole conversation.

Well, you weren't just a born again Christian. You want to actually be a pastor, right?

Correct. I was going to school to be.

A pastor, so it's even more hardcore in it.

So I have a history of questioning the system.

Yeah.

And this has kind of been part of that, I suppose. But ultimately this is another route to personal freedom and another path to what we're all after, which is something internal.

Yeah.

So I'm an entrepreneur. That's been my path to freedom and development. I teach entrepreneurs because that's the first step, like the money piece. You give somebody enough money so that their life is paid for, they're now going on the path of self development, the path of freedom. And I think that's how we ultimately create whatever change we want in the world is we have people developing and free people making an impact.

Yeah. So interesting. So money was the first thing, religion was the second thing. These are the two things that you're questioning. Third thing is reality. Now you're really questioning this reality that we're Sitting in, and you want to see if there's anything outside of it.

In some ways, I would almost call it, like, phase two of my religious journey or my spiritual quest.

Oh, for sure.

What's strange is I am having. I actually never said this publicly, but I do feel like I'm having somewhat of a spiritual awakening, which has now replaced my religious views that I had for sure in my teenage years and in my 20s. And that, too, is some sort of a path to whatever it is that we're seeking, which I don't know what that is, but we're all seeking that end game.

So do you feel like after.

Do you feel like after losing your religion, that there was a hole, like a void for a while and now that this whole spiritual psychedelic thing is kind of filling that void? Now that you're.

So let me comment on psychedelics very quickly, simply because my experience with psychedelics is very minimal.

Okay.

Very minimal. And I don't think it's a necessary path either.

Right.

So I think. I think it is a. A route to freedom, if you will.

Yeah.

And so I know I keep repeating that phrase, and it's annoying when I do that. But. But let me. Let me explain what I mean.

Okay.

I have. I came up very, very religious and with a very dark, deep time in which I.

Man, I can't even tell you the pain of questioning everything that I believed or where all my meaning came from, my purpose, where I thought I was going to go when I died. What I believe was absolute truth, where I got my hope, where I got my value, my worth, where I connected with other people, my community, my home, my language, your foundation of your entire. Everything that I believed. People accused me of just wanting to thumb my nose at God, get drunk and sleep around. The reality was it was an incredibly painful deconversion process that was years long. And.

That kind of as soon as I exited that, I kind of had the third, bucking the system, if you will, which was around family and relationships. After I left the church, I get into.

A relationship. I had up until then was saving myself for marriage, and I had a child who's now three years old. And there was another, like, very painful process of everybody from back home knows me as the very good, squeaky clean Christian. And now I'm about to have a child and I'm not married. And there was like a very dark, like, how poetic. Everybody's gonna say, Ryan left the church. He went and slipped around with every girl and he knocked him up. And that was not reality. And so there was an incredibly deep, dark time. And it was around that time that I decided I was going to go on a journey to find what I believed was true. What I believed was true about faith and spirituality because I had kind of replaced Christianity with more of that typical angry atheism.

I did the same for a while.

You did? Yeah. And that's almost, like, necessary in the healing process. But I wanted to know, is that true as well? And so I started filming a documentary. I don't know if I'll ever release it or not, but a couple years ago, I started filming a documentary called Losing My Religion.

Was that just more than anything else, if it ever gets released? Is that cathartic for you to do something like that?

Yeah. It at least, like, solidified my journey in a way. And for me, the opening scene, the opening thing we did was I had never touched even marijuana or held a cigarette in my hand. And I did 4 grams of psilocybin mushrooms.

That's the opening scene of it.

Yeah.

Oh, wow. So is this, like, what was the decision of deciding to do that?

So people that I didn't know who to turn to in terms of, like, all right, I don't think Christianity is true. I'm still open to it. Like, I'm still. I'm still compelled by the idea of that you could throw the whole thing out. But if Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again, that's still a compelling story. But everything else apart pretty much cast out at. At. At that point. So I didn't know who to talk to about this or, like, explore other realities or thought processes or religions. I didn't want to replace one religion with another. And I kept finding people who I trusted say that their most spiritual experiences were on mushrooms.

Yeah.

I was like, if I'm going to be honest about this journey, okay, I'll. I'll give it a go.

Yeah.

And what's interesting is, after that experience, which was a. I had, I say, a combination of a good trip and a bad trip, and on the other side of it, I've never wanted to go to church more, and I'd be happy to go into that, but I would. I would have considered it one of the most spiritual experiences of my life. That actually gave me a lot of insight into my faith, and it made me feel like it gave me a different perspective on my faith that actually drew me back into certain elements of that that I have that I continue to unpack and continue to explore. And now it's. Now it's like, now it's more of a falling in love with it. I just got goosebumps saying that. It's more of a falling in love with what you believe is true rather than the rigid ideas that are given to you as a kid. So that was my first experience into this realm.

It's interesting and I love the way that you said falling in love with it because I remember one of the biggest. I was raised Catholic and we all know that usually doesn't end very well for most people that are our age. Like, that's tough. But my family is still very religious. And the one thing that always bothered me the most was that people used to say stuff like, I'm a God fearing man. And you know, it's not, it's not about that. What we're saying is whatever someone believes is bad. It's just certain things work for certain people. And in my head I was just like, I thought this guy is supposed to love me. So they say God is love, but then I have, if I do something wrong, I'm going to hell. In my head I was just like, I can't wrap my mind around the fact that someone who loves me so much unconditionally could have that as an option. And that was always the hardest part for me whenever I was diving into it.

And if somebody's listening to this, there's some of them who have a very logical, reasonable answer. And it still did not satisfy me for sure. Like you came up with that as a. And it's such a thought out reason. You obviously had to construct that in order to answer a complex question. Absolutely. And I found that very, very difficult to believe. Yeah.

And yeah, I completely agree with it. So with the first experience.

I'm sorry, I want to rant on, like what you just said before we.

Move on, I want to hear.

Because there's this idea. I know there's some dude named Derek who's listening and Derek is like, well, God is perfect. And so of course he had to have a system in which if you broke God's perfect covenant, he had to send you somewhere. So you mean to tell me that the creator of all that exists had only one other option and it was to destroy that soul and put him into a place of eternal damnation. Right, right. Please, Derek.

Derek. So it was interesting, actually. And I'll go back to an ayahuasca experience that I had a couple weeks. And this is not us condoning any of these things because we probably have to put some sort of disclaimer in there.

We've never touched any of this. This is all a joke.

Yeah. And also, we don't recommend anybody do it. It's not for everybody.

I actually don't, by the way. I do not recommend that people do them and do not recommend that.

It's definitely not for everybody.

And I'll explain why in a minute.

Okay? And the interesting thing that came to me was when I was. I had taken ayahuasca, and I was deep into it, and it was. I don't know who was talking to me. Something was talking to me, and I went through this beautiful experience, which I was telling you about. I've never felt so much love in my entire life. And literally every cell of my body felt like it was fixed. I went through every single instance of my entire life. I talked to my dad, who died 17 years ago. He apologized and said, I didn't know what I was putting you through, and I didn't know why I was doing things that I did. But now that I'm here, I've just realized that I was put on Earth to be your teacher. And everyone that you meet is your teacher. And the people that annoy you the most are actually your biggest teachers. And so this is. Had this big, huge, beautiful experience, and I went through the whole thing, and then I said, okay, let's talk about religion, because I'm just curious about it. And I was like, which one is right? And the answer that came was, can I guess?

Yes. All of them.

Yes. Whoa.

All of them.

And I said, why are all of them right? And it said, because I created all of the humans to create them. And I was like, oh, of course. Why in the hell have I never thought of that? Like, if God exists in all of these religions, God created all of these humans, and they have free will. But who's to say that's not part of his master plan of creating all these religions? Because maybe this one works for this group of people in this area of the world, and this one works for this group of people in this area of the world. And if he's so smart, then he probably created these for certain reasons that we're just not smart enough to understand. We don't have to understand the reason of it.

Right?

And that's what came to me. And I was like, oh, they're all right. Damn. I can't believe I've never thought of that before. But it seems so simple, and it seems so right.

So I'll say this in my I've learned this lesson in a very different way.

Okay.

And I've been thinking about what I sold a company a year ago for a whack ton of money. Hooray.

Hooray. Now I get to go on a personal development and find out why I have these attachments to money and all of this.

Right.

So there's a thought process that I've played out a thousand times, which is the pursuit of making money so that you can do what or the purpose of getting fit so that you can do what. And the end point of all of it is you die. The end result is that you die. But what happens is, if you're using that to grow and to grow and to grow, and you bring other people who are also growing and growing and growing, all of them die, too. But we are effectively doing is. We are changing and evolving the consciousness of whatever consciousness is.

Right.

Like it's expanding on itself. And to me, I think that is the purpose of it all. And so religion was the best expression of that in that context and that culture at that time. And we had to go through a lot of pain to start to unravel the conversation of maybe this doesn't serve us anymore. And now we're at, like, this opening point of we're not really sure where it's going to go, but we have taken. We have gone. That has served us up into a certain point, and now the conversation's starting to change.

Yeah.

And so I agree with you that they were all. They all had some sort of benefit for that time in that culture.

Correct.

And it served us up into that point, and now it's changing.

Yeah. And you're not even agreeing with me. This is just what you're agreeing with. Whatever voice in my head was saying, okay, that's the crazy part. I didn't make this whole thing up. That's just what I was told.

I was the voice in your head, Rob. Yeah.

So let's do this. Tell us a little bit about your first experience when you took the four grams. What exactly happened? Because I know there's people out there that have done a lot of stuff that are probably out there listening. They're like, yeah, I've done this. But then there's other people that are literally like. Like you said, never touched a cigarette.

And now they hear this and they.

Think, drugs, drugs, drugs are bad, because Dare told me. And that's what we were brainwashed to think.

So, first of all, drugs are bad and you shouldn't touch them. And the reason why is because they are one of many, many different routes to get the same effect. You can get them through meditation, you can get them through having a perfect childhood. That. Where no one ever sinned against you.

Right.

I mean, you can. There are. There are other ways. And this happens to be the common popular way among a certain group of individuals who have a lot of trauma. This is my interpretation of it.

I'd agree. Yeah.

So trauma healing and getting back to kind of our core essence, I think is.

The end effect. And this is one of the routes that people are choosing to go down and probably shouldn't be done by most people.

Spoiler alert. At some point, I would love to talk about how this route impacted me in business. So. Spoiler alert. I want to make comment of that.

Yeah, I'd love to talk about that, but to someone.

To answer your question, of someone who never touched a drug in their life. Terrified.

But the first thing that happened was my brain just started going.

Like crazy. Like I couldn't. Every thought I've ever had was. And it overwhelmed me until it was like I got to the end of the file folder of thoughts.

And it was the end of the end of the files.

And you said, no thoughts in your head.

There were none. And for the first time ever, first time ever in my life, I felt like I was myself. And I thought the whole time I've been the voice in my head and not myself.

Wow.

And it was the most freeing, liberating, joyful, expansive experience.

So it was like your entire life, you had the false self. You finally met your true self.

Right. And I was like, I was here the whole time.

Yeah.

And that was an incredibly beautiful experience.

And I got the lesson, and I should have got the lesson and stopped, but I was with somebody, and I said, I'm ready for more. Should I take more? And so I took another gram.

Okay.

And then I had a very dark trip.

Okay.

Dark trip. Where I felt as though I was being. I was on, like, at the gates of hell, and I was trapped there forever, and I would never get out. Absolutely petrified, terrified. And as though time was infinite. And so I was trapped.

I've been stuck there before forever.

Terrible is horrible.

I was. I'm kind of afraid to ever do that again because of that probably 30 minutes of absolute terror.

Yeah.

But a friend kind of helped me lay down and get comfortable and coach me through it. And what I. As I started to relax, one of the things that I did was I just.

I felt as though I saw the world as God sees it.

At this point, I don't even know if I believe in God, but what I kind of saw was this very zoomed out view of the world and the universe, if you will. And I could see and feel my spot of where it was and it was going somewhere. Like there was a trajectory, there was a trend, something. And that no one was probably ever going to write about me in a history book. But that what I was here to do played a role in the overall development of whatever this was.

And it made me see that every conversation, every person I meet, every decision I make has a role in the ultimate evolution of consciousness. Or God's plan. Plan or whatever this is. Yeah, the simulation.

Yeah.

And that made me realize that we're all playing this part in the overall evolution of where we're going. And that was what made me want to go back to church. So I realized, oh, this is how all of you get it. This is how some people get it. But we're all in this together, like, we're all riding this wave.

So then how does that affect business? Because. Oh, actually, before I do that, the one question I have for you is you said the extra gram sent you into a backpack. Yes. Do you feel like sometimes. Is that a.

Complete representation of sometimes something that you do in life? Like, do you go too far? Do you put too much time into it, work? Do you put too much thought into what other people think about you or anything like that? Is it a little bit too far sometimes? Like you already had the beautiful experience? Do you feel like sometimes you take it too far?

Me personally?

Yeah.

Yes. This is a pattern. And the pattern is of almost the unhealthy addiction to the growth, but the actual what's actually dangerous there is the attachment to the growth of the attachment of what will happen next at the next thing, when I learn the next thing, when I make the next dollar, when I get the next striation on my abs, when I get the next unlocked secret while I'm on mushrooms, it's the attachment to always being at the next thing rather than being in the present moment. Now, ultimately, I got a different lesson that was equally valuable, which is very painful to do that.

Yeah. So did you notice that in the moment or after that? That little bit extra, it was completely unnecessary, but it sent you into 30 minutes of hell to teach you that maybe you need to slow down a little bit.

And I didn't enjoy the experience. I wish I had got the lesson then. It took many, many other difficulties for me to get that lesson.

I was trying to show you and you just missed it, I guess. Yeah.

I mean, life keeps giving the same lesson until you learn it. And that wasn't a lesson that I was ready to learn yet.

So how has it helped you in business then? Because those don't seem like they'd go together for most people.

Yeah. So now we're going to fast forward a little bit to one other experience.

And.

And how many times have you done it?

I've done mushrooms one time.

Just one time.

So there's been, like, microdoses here and there, but I haven't had a spiritual.

Still, as I haven't experienced since then.

Okay.

I'm trying to think of how to. How to phrase this in a way that other people will understand, but.

In the last six months.

No, since I sold my. I sold a company last year, made a bunch of money, and went through a reaction of which is common because you realize that the money doesn't make you happy.

Thought it probably would. Yeah.

Yeah. My life was going to be. I would. I would crush every business venture I went into.

I'd be able to invest in whatever I wanted to do. And life wasn't all that different. And my immediate thought was, Well, I made $10 million. I guess I need to make $100 million.

Yeah.

And that just made me depressed because I realized that was gonna be even longer climb a longer journey, a harder journey. And it's like, when do I get mine and when do I get my happiness? When do I get my satisfaction, my peace, my freedom? When do I have everything that I want?

And I took some business risks that didn't pay off. And so now there's questions of, am I a failure at this? Was I ever good at businesses in the first place? Am I a fraud? My. An imposter?

I own fricking capitalism.com and I had a business not go the way that I wanted. This seems not so good. This seems like. Like it flies in the face of what I stand for.

And over the since then, what I've started to learn and unlearn was how much of my life and my decisions were driven by validation that I felt like I needed because I had an opinion of myself, that I was broken or defective.

Yep.

And I never knew that I had that thought. And. And that came from. I don't know if you would consider MDMA a psychedelic or not, but ct.

Is that considered psychedelic? We have the professional. There you go.

We have the professional in the room.

So.

Now I want to put some context around mdma, because MDMA is not a fix or a cure all, but it Was a route where I kind of discovered a lot of things about my inner child. And I have done a lot of more inner child work through traditional therapy since then. Totally sober, without drugs. So like it was, it was. That was one way to get there. And I've gotten deeper into it through other mechanisms. Totally sobered. The traditional route.

Yeah. Side note, have you seen Tucker Max's write up on mdma? It's incredible. So if anybody's out there and they're like listening and they're like, well, I don't understand. I need to, I need to read more about this.

The last person you'd think, yeah, the last person.

Tucker Max wrote about his two MDMA therapy sessions and how it was the most life changing thing of his entire life. So that's a good write up. But back to your.

Yeah. So through traditional therapy, some help, you might say, of other resources.

Other things.

And like traditional therapy and meditation. I just discovered how hard I was on myself.

Yeah.

Because of things that I thought were broken about me. Here's how that impacted business and the money that I make for years. I would say that's a cool system. I would say that's a cool idea. That's a cool process that will follow. And it was like, let's do this one and then let's do this one and let's do this one. And some of them worked and I got the result I wanted and I got some followers and I got some money. And yet it didn't fix what I was trying to amplify. It was like freedom and your life and your happiness. And so what I was actually doing was feeding this machine that just wanted more and more and more. And what I all the way getting more and more unhappy. And when I realized that that was basically my inner junk, like stuff that happens to you when you're younger, that fires in the brain and creates certain pathways.

I was really trying to fix all that shit. Yeah. And.

On the other side of a lot of that.

There is a, there's a piece of A, I can wait for the right opportunity to come along and B, I don't have to serve that customer that I can't serve or that wouldn't be a fit for my organization because they have deep pockets and those types of decisions make you more money and they create better businesses because businesses are profitable ways to amplify whatever it is that you're bringing to the world. Business is the best way to bring an idea, a product.

A project into the world because it can be done. Profitably which means sustainably. And we often think that it's a money making machine, which it is and can be. But the primary purpose of business is to bring something into the marketplace and that realizing that and satisfying the take mentality of I've got to get more, I've got to get more, I've got to get more. And being on the other side of that is like.

You hire better because you hire people who are a fit for what you're building rather than a fit for who can make you more money. I love money. Money's great. But at some point, if a whole purpose is that you are accumulating fuel rather than.

Deciding where you're going to go.

Right.

And fuel doesn't do much except take up a lot of space and burn quite nicely. But using it to go somewhere is the entire point. And you need fuel, you need money to go somewhere. But if you don't know where you're going or what it's for, yeah, you just become the hoarder of a lot of fuel.

So you said a lot of things in there that I think are super important. Because when I came to the realization of.

Probably about a year and a half ago was, and you said it yesterday, where you're like, you know, your life seems pretty laid back. And I realized that it is now, but it wasn't at some point.

When I was working 120 hours a week when I was younger, just to be able to be number one was because I didn't feel like there was something inside of me that wasn't right. I felt like I would finally be good enough. When I got to number one. And then I got there and I was like, well, this sucks. And then I quit that place. And then I made a bunch of money and saved a bunch of money and then was sitting on. And then, you know, a year and a half ago I woke up and I was like, I literally woke up and I was like, I gotta work, I gotta go make money. That feeling of like, it was like 6:30 in the morning, nobody's awake that I can really do business with. But I was like, I gotta make money right now. And that was literally my bathroom. And I was like, why do I have this feel like I have more money than I need to sit in my bank account? Like if a catastrophe happened, I would still be fine. Like, why do I have this feeling inside of me that I need to go make money right now?

I had that for years. Yeah.

And it was literally just like. And I had a process and I meditated on it and I was like, because you have lived your entire life in survival mode. That was it. My entire life in survival mode. We were really poor. I remember my mom applying for food stamps and getting rejected because she had a car and I guess that's not allowed or something. And I remember my Christmas gift came because we went to a women's shelter. I remember all these things. And so when I had the opportunity to go make money in sales, I went 150% and I put everything that I possibly could into it. But that once I started making it, that never died. It actually got worse. Like I kept having to go and try to make more money, make more money. And then this one day I woke up and it was like, you're literally, you've been in survival mode for 31 years and you need to get out of survival mode because you don't have to worry about these things anymore. Like, you don't have to, like, of course you can still go out and make money. And now it's more of a game versus a survival technique or mechanism that I'm really worried about. And what I've come to realize since switching and it still is not 100% switched, but it has been slowly turning this giant boat that I've been going on my entire life is that it seems like life in business is a lot easier when you allow it to come to you versus trying to force your way to success. So do you feel like it's been easier or more enjoyable since you've had this realization?

Thousand percent, yeah. I mean what you just outlined was that you realized that your entire life had been driven by the 15 year old who was providing for moments.

Correct? 100%.

And that, that served you up until, you know, 19 when you were on top and then you like, there was no unlearning of that. And it was the same thing for me.

Yeah.

Like I, I realized I had been driven my entire life by the 13 year old who was trying to provide for himself because he was in survival mode because the parents split. Yeah. And then I got picked on when I was in school.

Yeah, me too.

So nobody was going to take care of me except me.

Yep.

And I took care of myself. But I never learned anything else.

Yep.

And so I was still trying to take care of myself while I'm hiring people that I need to take care of and that need to take care of me. But a, I didn't know how to take care of anybody about myself. And number two, I had no idea how to be taken care of. So imagine how that's going to go.

That, that's going to implode.

Yeah.

The partnerships where, you know, I'm taking care of me and I don't know how to make sure that my partner's taking care of relationships. The exact same thing was being driven by an immature 13 year old who is afraid of being picked on and being left. So what the hell do you think I'm gonna do? And we all have stories in our past that are still driving our behavior and since addressing some of them, because I'm sure I've got many, many more. Having that angst go away makes you more creative, makes you more serving. More people want to hang out with you and do business with you.

Yeah.

And you're not in a rush and you make better decisions when you're thinking long term versus short term.

Right.

And yes, business is much more fun because that's the fricking point. This is not supposed to be a.

It's a grind, but it's not supposed to be a soul crushing grind, which.

Is what we think that it's supposed to. Yes.

Right. Told.

Yes. Yes. Where it's like, you watch. Yeah. People watch Gary Vaynerchuk and they think, now I love Gary Vaynerchuk and I think that he's just a different person. He gets off and like loves to grind. And he's just built that way. He says he doesn't need more than like four or five hours of sleep, but then the average person like me is like, oh, I usually need seven or eight, but if I want to be successful, I got to do four and I've got to grind. I've got to grind. I got to grind. It's just, it's not sustainable for the average human. And we think in order to be successful, we have to struggle our way to success.

Yeah. I think most people think that the grind is the game. Like, it's, it's, it, it. Sucking is a sign of it working.

Yeah.

And that's not the case.

Yeah.

So I've had the privilege of getting to know Gary a little bit. And I think Gary has very few childhood issues. And as a result, he kind of operates from the mode that you and I have been seeking as a default.

That's true. Yeah.

Which is a superpower. And because of that, Gary knows exactly what he wants, exactly who he is, and he amplifies that. And when you are so pumped about amplifying that you might sleep five or six hours a night and be like, I can't wait to go. Right? We've been in that mode. He lives in that mode. But most people think that you just want to skip a few to that mode. And usually you run into a whole bunch of childhood.

Well, the average person has some sort of childhood issues. I mean, I know people that I'm very close with that have incredible families, incredible people that are around them. Like some of the people that I look up to the most in this world as far as really good friends, parents that have incredible, like literally the most in love I've ever seen a couple.

Right.

But they have issues because children don't process things the same way that humans process things. So an example of someone I know real well is that she was in a. She was in the car and her mom was driving and there was her. She was four years old. Her and her mom was driving home this other way. Little four year old boy. And this four year old boy was reading the signs and four years old reading. I didn't read till third grade. I thought I was like, I literally thought like I had some issues. I just didn't comprehend reading. But in four years old, this kid is reading the signs and her mom was like, oh, whatever his name. Johnny, right? Johnny. What is, what does that sign say? And he's like, oh, it says this. She's like, oh my God, you're so smart. And didn't realize it until like talking about it and finally working this whole thing out that she has this whole paradigm and thought of, I'm not smart enough. And I was like, well, where did it come from? It took unraveling, unraveling. And it came from this event where she was a little girl in the car and thought, my mom thinks this boy is more impressive than I am and doesn't love me, loves this. The family is incredible. The family is all. There's no divorce, there's no alcoholism, there's no beating. There's none of those things. But this one event clicked in her brain and made her go, I'm not smart enough. And now that carries along. Then I know other people that have little tiny events like this where it's just another one of my friends had a sixth birthday party and two parents still together, still very much in love. Amazing people, amazing family, brothers, all of this stuff. And she was at her birthday party and she was so like, I want everyone to have fun. I want everyone to have fun. She's six years old and this little boy walks up to her and everything's going well. And this boy walks up to her and goes, hey, I'm bored, I'm gonna go home. And that was it. And so she thought in her head, oh my gosh, I can't even make everybody happy. Like I must not be good enough. So she didn't have a birthday from 6 years old until 16 years old. She didn't want one. Right. Her mom was like, it's your Sweet 16 birthday party, we're gonna have a birthday for you. And she's like, okay, fine. So she's like all nervous going in a Sweet 16 birthday party. She goes into it, everything's going pretty well. And some little boy goes, hey, I've got to go home, I've got other stuff I got to do. And she interprets that through her six year old self and thinks he's just bored, he's going home. Fast forward to, you know, she's in her late 20s now and it's hard for her to make decisions. She's indecisive because of the fact that she thought the decisions she made for her birthday were not so. It's like, it's what people have to realize is that it doesn't have to be crazy traumas. There's a great book called the Trauma of Everyday Life where it's just like little tiny events can shift the way that you view the world. And ultimately most of us out there are a broken child in some sort of way and we just ultimately want to figure out a way to fix that child. But a lot of us don't even realize the patterns we've created because of the fact that we're that broken little child.

I have nothing to add.

Yeah, that's completely right.

But it's. But. And so for you, like for me, I realized it from, I guess psychedelics helped in that. But mine was just waking up and going to a meditation be like why is this happening? And just listening to minor voice. Yours came because you were able to have a psychedelic experience. So it's different ways to crack the same nut basically.

Yeah. And I have maintained that and gone deeper that through, through traditional therapy.

Yeah.

And so these are like, we're all after like healing that. And you know, I was doing a meditation earlier this week actually where I just imagined myself connecting with my 11 year old self. You know, a year before my world fell apart, my parents split and a whole bunch of issues that came out of that. But like when I thought my world was still perfect, what was I like? And I met that kid, I'm just imagining him in soccer clothes fixing his Hair.

Singing and dancing in the kitchen. He's stoked to play baseball and stoked to play soccer and stoked to tell jokes and stoked to sing songs. And these are all the things that were fun to me. And what was interesting, my meditation was on why can't I have fun? Like why I have such an aversion to having fun. And I met like, you know, I'm envisioning my 11 year old self having all kinds of fun. And it was like, that's like what we're all after. That's what we're all after. It's the stuff that happened in between where we unlearned that, that got in the way.

Actually.

I know exactly how to have fun. I know exactly how to have fun. It's just that my default mode goes back to all these other survival things that happened along the way for sure. That get in the way of that. Yeah.

Ultimately you're trying to protect yourself and having fun is secondary to protecting yourself, Right? Yeah.

It's really hard to have fun when you're completely worried about defending yourself. That's never fun. It's never fun to be at war defending yourself. It's fun when you're safe and you're playful. And I think it's what we're all trying to rediscover. And we have all these different routes of business now. I'll get the money and then I'll get there. What really happens is you get the money and then you go through existential crisis so you can work through it and then you find, then you find the fun. Or we try all these different routes. But that inner creativity and fun is ultimately how we create the world that we want. And the more that we put in front of that is where we complicate it and become really, really miserable. We are made to create. Yeah. We are create like we are. We are creations ourselves. And our job is to continue creating so that we continue to grow.

Yeah.

At least that's what I believe. But who could, who could, who could trust me? Taking drugs.

I have nothing to add to that. That was great. I believe the exact same same thing because I. And it seems like you've switched your mindset. I view myself as strictly a creator that's just creating things across the world. Like that's all I'm trying to do at this point. And it's a lot more fun. It's like being a little kid finger painting and I used to creating each.

Day and I used to think I was a builder and I'm not like I, I'm a creator and some people create through building, but I'm just a creator through creating. And I thought I had to become a builder in order to continue to create. But our job is to just be free and create things. So, you know, so Rob, I, I teach a lot of Amazon sellers how to make their first million. I've helped like hundreds of people make their first million by launching physical products and selling them on the Internet, mostly through Amazon.com and.

The thing is, the ones that do the best are the ones who create something.

Yeah.

And everybody wants the system, they want the formula, and guess what?

I've got it.

But that doesn't really help until it brought something that actually matters to the marketplace and you can do it and get the result. But you never really build the business that you want until you have created something. Otherwise you are always in defense mode, defending against price wars and reviewers wars and ranking wars and all this stuff that doesn't really create value in the marketplace. And that's why people have a negative view of capitalism because they think that it's a zero sum game, because everybody is fighting with one another rather than creating something. And really capitalism is the system through which we create things and the best ones expand in the marketplace. And that's how we express our personal freedom.

It's a good way of putting it because most people, when they hear capitalism, they think that it's just this terrible thing that needs to be taken down and we need to stop Switch. But your viewpoint, I mean, you own capitalism.com is completely opposite from everybody else's.

You believe that entrepreneurs are going to help save the world because the government's not going to do anything else. Right.

Okay. So sometimes I like to start off the conversation with people, I say, okay, first of all, can we agree that government is not working? It's a really hard thing for me, like actually really satisfying.

It's doing great.

So even when I'm talking to a blue faced liberal. Sarah, can we start? Do we agree that government as it is right now is broken? Yes. Okay, so we also agree that we want people to be taken care of and we want people to have health care. Right? Yes. Okay, great. So we agree we want people to have the same thing and we think that government's broken. So what we're really trying to outline is not do we give people health care? Do we not give people health care? What we're really trying to outline is we have this aim and the system through which we're using is not working. And we're trying to create a different system. I think the best way to do that is through the marketplace, because that's where the best ideas win.

People that are creating new ideas that our government is not creating.

Correct.

Yes.

And it's the only system in which bad ideas lose. Now, we could.

Because the government doesn't. Their bad ideas are. Stay forever.

Yes.

They're not in the marketplace.

Right. You can't say capitalism is the only system through which good ideas come from because there's a chance that a government somewhere created a good idea. I don't know, I haven't seen one yet. But there's a chance. It's a chance it could exist. But capitalism is the only system where bad ideas is loose. True governments keep the system going. So you get a bad idea in there, it never goes away. So my argument to them is, great, if we want to solve something, we do it profitably. And your solution is to take something that we both agreed was not working and try to use to fix a problem that we both want to do it. We're on the same team here. Here's my strategy. And I've never had someone, never had someone disagree after putting it that way. So I don't say it as looking at it a different way or the opposite way as everybody else. It's actually the way that we all, like, we're on the same. We are on the same team, on the same goal, all trying to grow and expand and learn. We're all just fighting about how we get there. And we don't get there through less freedom, we get there through more.

Agreed. Well, I think that's the best way to end it.

Oh, this was fun. Thanks. Rob. You are. Hey, first of all, can I say you are having a huge impact in the world through sharing your story. And the people, like, you know, I've tried to reverse engineer how you go viral.

Yeah, right.

But the truth is you just do good shit like, and you're spreading a good message that people need to hear. So thank you for what you're doing.

Thank you for saying that. Appreciate it.

Mic drop.

That's good. We went deep in there, huh?

We went all over.

Just a couple broken boys talking about issues.

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