How COVID Changes Ecommerce: The Positives & Negatives Of Amazon In 2020 w/ Jeff Lieber

Hey, capitalists, before we jump into today's episode, if you've crossed seven figures and now you're stuck and you're frustrated and you're overworked and you're not seeing the same growth and excitement that you had when you started this thing, but you know that you're sitting on something special and it's driving you crazy that you can't get what is in your head out into the world. I know why you're stuck and I can help. Go over to capitalism.com 7. I've put together a write up about why you're stuck, how to get unstuck, and how I can help you in 2020 and beyond. Looking for exciting businesses with fun entrepreneurs who are frustrated because they know that they're capable of more. So go to capitalism.com7 and we'll get you growing again.

Hey, Jeff Lieber. What's up, buddy? It's good to see you.

Hey, Ryan. Always good to see you, my friend.

Yeah. So I wanted to chat with you because I know you were just, you were just advising some of the sharks from Shark Tank on what's working now on Amazon. So I want to ask you what the heck is working right now on Amazon and also how people can make sense of the crazy market right now. I mean, we have people who have doubled and tripled since COVID So I want to ask you all about this, but first, how the heck did you get in touch with the sharks from Shark Tank?

Yeah, it was a pretty awesome opportunity. It was actually during COVID So sometimes even in the toughest times, even for our business, you know, it really slowed down for a little bit because I think everyone just freaked out, went super lean and didn't want to hire experts and just wanted to buckle up and see what was going to happen. We did the same thing. We started just getting creative. We came up with how to survive and thrive on Amazon. During the coronavirus pandemic report, we just sent it to some of our favorite sharks and luckily one of them responded and got us in touch with their whole advisory team and, you know, went through a vetting process and then got to do an entire live training series for their whole portfolio. And yeah, it was a really, really fun opportunity and we're still working.

How do you even contact them in the first place?

Just ninja tricks, you know.

You know, it's just, just, you know, doing what you can to cold outreach, you know, not sure if they'll, if they'll see it or not. Just contact them any way possible. Multiple ways and he got through on one of the channels.

So I want you to tell me which channel got through and what was the message that you sent them that got their attention?

Yeah, so I think it was actually email and it was just simply, you know, we sent them the report and we said, you know, the PDF report and just said, hey, I know it's a crazy time right now on Amazon and a lot of people are hurting. It was right when like all the warehouses on Amazon were delayed and long ship time. So everyone was freaking out. But so we sent it to him I think right at the right time and said, I know probably a lot of your companies are hurting. Here's a free report that might help them during this time. Also, if there's anything else we can do just to support, like, I'm a big fan of the show, I'm a big fan of you, blah, blah, blah. And you know, whatever we can do to support, we're here, we'd be happy to help.

So you didn't, you actually weren't, you were almost using the person you were trying to connect with as a proxy of giving value to the people that they have an incentive to help. So you were like, hey, you weren't like, hey, can we hop on a call? It was go ahead and pass this on to your people and then if we can help, you know, feel free to reach out. And they did reach out back to you, is that right?

Yeah, exactly.

And so your primary communication was it with them? Was it with someone on their team? Like how did you end up getting plugged in?

Yeah, he just forwarded us and put us in touch with this like basically right hand person that oversees the growth for his whole portfolio or her whole portfolio of, of all their products. So it was interesting to learn how they've got their little infrastructure, they've got their own team of retail and E commerce and growth and marketing. They've got some really talented, amazing, awesome people and they just are kind of liaisons with all of the companies there to support them and give them resources. So it's a pretty cool setup.

So I know that you did three training calls for this person's portfolio where you were advising them on what to do. So what did you tell them?

Yeah, so luckily, like we got to look at a lot of their, we knew who was going to be on the call, so we got to look at a lot of their Amazon stores. And what might make a lot of people listening feel better is like, you know, their businesses were hardly different from anyone else on Amazon that we talked to, you know, we talk with, talked to thousands of companies over the years that aren't on Shark Tank and stuff like that. But they have the same challenges that everyone else has. Listing optimization is usually still lacking. They're missing simple things like video and having the shark be featured on the page and letting people know that just some of the fundamental stuff was really. Because I think they're just so busy, just like everyone else. Like they were, you know, really busy.

Right. I mean, they're like, they're like, just because they've gotten a $200,000 deal from O' Leary or Lori Greiner does not mean that they've gone and built teams of 40 people. It's still like, you know, four person shows, sometimes two person shows. And so they're overlooking the same things that most entrepreneurs are overlooking.

Yeah, exactly. And one of them even said like, people think that just because we got a deal on Shark Tank that I'm a millionaire and all the work stops and they just do it all for you. But they're like, it's far from that. It's definitely a lot easier and helpful. You have an amazing resource that can open doors, but they still got to run the whole show and it's totally their business to build their own teams and do all the work. So it was interesting to learn that.

So how many of them, just out of curiosity, were doing well on Amazon or on Amazon at all versus trying to do whatever channel they were doing when they got the deal on Shark Tank? And then what did they end up doing with your advice?

Yeah, so I mean, a lot of them, you know, we're just doing, you know, 10 to 50k a month. Typically on Amazon, it's not like they're doing like a million a month or a quarter million a month. So for the most part they were, you know, sub 150 because they had either retail channels or their own website.

And then the shark will plug them in with different resources and stuff like that. A lot of them had a lot of room for improvement. It's not like they were the number one or even the number five player in their niche. So it was interesting to see that they need just as much help as anybody.

So you were working with this group of people that are doing, we'll just say $20,000 a month on average in terms of sales. They're backed by a shark on Shark Tank. They have lots of opportunities for exposure, but they're still missing basic optimization stuff that they could be doing. So what advice did you give them to go from 20,000 to 200,000 over the next year or two?

Yeah. So number one is, I mean a lot of those companies, they've just got like one or two like great products that kind of got them onto the show or got in front of the shark, but they haven't built out really a full brand or portfolio of products that serve the same customer. So that was sort of one area that we really focused on was, you know, what else can you add on additional products? And using Amazon and all the great data, you know, using apps like Jungle Scout and Helium 10 that you can, you can find really great additional products that can increase your average order value or increase the lifetime value of a customer. So we ran some like competitor analysis for them and gave them some tips on what they could launch next. And so a lot of them that would be one of the ways to do it.

Another was, do you mean to tell me that even though they're backed on Shark Tank, they still hadn't built out that core base of four products to get to 100 sales a day and must be a million dollar business.

Some of them, I mean, you know, but some of them have awesome patented, you know, game changing, industry changing products. But still it could help them a lot to launch additional SKUs.

So the first thing that you told them to do was look at the customer and build out that product base that they could launch next. Makes total sense to me. What else did you tell them?

Yeah, then we did, like I said, some live listing teardowns of some of the people that were generous enough to let us give some constructive feedback live on the call in front of everybody. So everyone I think took a lot of notes there. And then from there we just sort of went into our turnkey Bullseye traffic system which is largely about Amazon ads and how to use. A lot of them were not using Amazon ads hardly at all. They were maybe spending a thousand or two thousand a month, but it wasn't really a focus and they didn't, I guess didn't quite realize that, you know, you could, that's one of the fastest ways to scale on Amazon. So we did some live PPC campaign audits for them as well. And a lot of them had never heard of Amazon DSP advertising, which is demand side platform advertising. And that's one of the fastest growing things that we've seen for our clients right now. So they were interested to learn about that. We actually had our fastest growing client we've ever had is it's still in Progress right now. They joined with us in January of this year 2020 and they were, they were doing really well. They were doing about, about 300,000amonth in sales. So they're doing really solid. But then we started doing DSP ads. They had never done Amazon dsp, which is a different ad platform, but through Amazon or on Amazon. And we've, in four months we have tripled their business to over 1.1 million a month in sales. And that's largely through PPC and Amazon dsp.

Question, that's amazing. It's grown that fast. Was there a halo effect from that type of advertising? I mean, going from 300 to a million a month, Was there kind of like a spillover from the main source of advertising where now they're also starting to show up for more keywords? Or was there any other thing that came kicked on when people started spending more on the advertising platform with you?

Yeah, there was. I mean, we've seen their organic rankings increase a lot as we effectively scale the ad side because Amazon tracks everything. If you're bidding on whatever keyword phrase like.

Long lasting yoga mat, if that's your keyword phrase that you're bidding ads on, Amazon tracks that and says, wow, this person got a thousand sales, a thousand units were sold this month for that term. And so they're going to boost you naturally in the organic rankings, which is where you start making free profitable sales.

That's one piece of it. But actually for this particular client, he was doing a lot of ad spend on PPC before, but now the majority of the ad spend has shifted to Amazon DSP because it's so much more productive, profitable. We're seeing like 10 to 17% ACOs on the DSP side across the board for this client as well as a couple others, just not to that scale.

That's great. And for people who don't know, would you explain the difference between those ad platforms?

Yeah. So Amazon DSP ads is a really, really powerful platform that is evolving really, really fast. I think it's a little bit ahead of Amazon PPC now because you can do so much more. So you can do video ads, you can do really, really highly controlled retargeting or remarketing ads, which means that let's say you have a thousand visitors visit your product page this month and only 100 buy because you have a 10% conversion. So you had 900 people that didn't buy well, Amazon DSP ads lets you set up an ad. It can be a video ad or just a normal ad, an image ad as well. And you can follow those 900 people around with an ad, not just on Amazon, but you can track them around the whole web on other websites. So that's what's really powerful is you can, you know, find them off of Amazon and bring them back. And I think that's just why that's one of the lowest hanging fruit areas that we always start with, with the client.

All right, so you told these companies, these shark tank companies to build out their product infrastructure, build up their product portfolio to go heavy onto Amazon sponsored ads and dsp.

What else did you tell them to do? To grow?

Yeah. Oh, one thing I want to not miss is so on Amazon DSP there are two options. So you can go directly to Amazon dsp, just Google it and you can go directly to them and have Amazon manage it for you. I don't know of anyone that's done that, but you definitely can. But they will have a $35,000 minimum test budget. So that makes me a little nervous. So you can do that if you want to, if you're feeling aggressive, but you can also find an agency that's gone through, you know, the onboarding, training and certification. And we're not the only one out there. There's, there's other ones out there. So if you know any definitely go that route because you can set your own, then agency can set their own budget. So like we found that for clients we only need a thousand dollar test budget to see if it works or not. If it doesn't work, we just say, you know what, sorry, it's, it's, we're not seeing good signals here, so let's, let's not continue. We don't want to waste your money but most of the time it, we see really positive signals and then it scales. So this person's spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a month on DSP really, really quickly. But that's because that thousand dollar budget went really well.

Makes sense to me.

So your next question was what did we tell them after that?

What else did you tell them besides sell more products and spend more on advertising? Which is good advice. What else did you tell them?

Yeah, so some of the other things that are working right now that a lot of them hadn't heard of is when you're launching a new product because we told them to launch new products is the Amazon vine review program is working super well. So make sure to use that. It went down temporarily during COVID but I believe it's back at the last That I checked. So that can get you up to 30 reviews right there and it's totally worth it, especially if you are launching a new product or you have less than 30 reviews. If you're just launching a brand new product, the early reviewer program still works great. You can get usually at least five reviews is what you can get there. So that's a really simple, easy way to get that. Because reviews are hard to come by these days, Amazon's really made it a lot more strict. So yeah, so we just kind of walked through a handful of different Amazon review generation strategies. A lot of them didn't have hardly any in place that were proactive. They didn't know that you could really take control of that. And then we talked about the growth strategy that are available on Amazon. So a lot of them hadn't done coupon clippings or lightning deals or planning for prime day or the holidays like taking advantage of those deals. Amazon's really evolved in the last year and come out with a lot more deal types. So a lot of those deals are really, really profitable. But you just gotta test it and see if it works. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, don't do it again.

Well, here's what I like about this kind of three phase plan, if you will, is the first piece is really building the lifetime customer value so that one purchase can become four purchases because you're developing more products. And then number two is advertising more to get new customers. And then phase three is getting as many people as possible who see you to convert, which is exactly the order you should go in. Most people get it backwards as they try and they try and take a product that is doing 20 sales a day and get it to 25. Like they're just trying to chintz around the edges rather than building a business and going which is what you're suggesting these companies from Shark Tank do. Now I saw the presentation that you gave to this portfolio before you gave it and what I thought was really interesting. This surprised me, Jeff, was that you spent a decent amount of time telling these companies why they should be on Amazon. So from our world, we think nothing of it. We're like, of course Amazon is the hot girl at the dance. Of course we, we wanted to be selling on Amazon. Why did you have to spend some time convincing or telling those companies that they should sell there at all?

Yeah, actually because we did a survey ahead of time, luckily and found that not all their companies that have physical products were on Amazon. Some of them had made the conscious choice to not be on there. They just only had Shopify and then retail or whatever else. So some of them, we wanted to make sure that we showed them the opportunity and said this is why. And if you still don't agree, we'd love to chat about it because we find a hard time believing it doesn't make sense. And especially post Covid now, I mean, when Covid hit a lot of these brands too, for the sharks, right? They're heavy in retail. That's what they promise a lot like, oh, I can get you into Whole Foods, I can get you into wherever with a phone call. Well, a lot of that retail has slowed down a bit. A lot of stores and chains and brands are going out of business. And so a lot of these brands are now realizing that you got to go to Amazon. And I mean, across the board we're seeing that the Amazon sales volume is up at least 25, 30% across the board on average. I mean, it's not for every single niche, but for most niches, just more people than ever before are shopping on Amazon. They're now Amazon prime members because they don't want to go to the store because they're fearing for their life. And me too. I haven't been to the store in like two months, you know, but I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon. I think people are now gonna be like converted to the Amazon way and it's the best and safest place to build your business as one of your channels.

Yeah, it makes obvious sense to me. I'm curious how you answer the question. Cause I'm sure this came up of people saying, I'm on retail or I'm taking sales on Shopify. I don't want to compromise my existing sales. I'm sure that had to come up from somebody. Is that the case? And if so, how did you answer that question?

Yeah, someone asked about, you know, they're worried about cannibalizing their sales. And you know, we showed them the data of, you know, that some of these brands that are crushing it on Amazon. Like we showed them a resistance armband that was a no name brand. I can't even recall the name of the brand because it's, it was that no name. They're doing 600 grand a month of resistance bans and that's it. Right. And they're a no name brand. And you know, I just told them like, look, this, this company here has no patent, nothing unique about it. They're just doing Amazon the right way and taking advantage of the volume on there. Because how Amazon works is most shoppers go to Amazon and they go, oh wow. During COVID I need some at home workout stuff. So I'm going to search resistance bands. They don't type in Nike resistance bands per se. Like they just type in what the product, you know, title and then they trust whatever Amazon puts in front of them. So even though they've never heard of that brand, it looks good, it's got some great reviews, so they're going to buy it. And so that's really what's so powerful at Amazon. So we told them view Amazon as a customer acquisition channel because there's a totally different pool of buyers. I've never heard of you. They're not searching for you. But if you showed up on the search results with ads or organic, you can get a big slice of that pie. And that's really what we help them to focus on.

Especially if you're doing the optimization stuff you're talking about. You feature the shark that has invested in them. Or if you're listening to this and you're not backed by a shark, you don't have Daymond John on your packaging or Mark Cuban on your packaging. Other social proof like reviews and other influencers that you've sponsored or as seen on this blog. That kind of stuff works almost as well as having a big celebrity influencer. Jeff, you mentioned that a lot of brands are up like 25% right now. I've heard some people saying that they've even doubled during COVID So is there anything that you're doing differently post Covid that you didn't do before?

And also I just want to know like what's all the, like what are you doing with the volume? What's driving it? How are you managing it? Just tell me about what you're saying seeing going on in the marketplace right now.

Yeah, I mean a lot of our clients have more than 30%. So that 30% is sort of like, I think like actually I interviewed Greg Mercer and that was like Jungle Scout data like from mid April or something. They had seen like that was the cross the board volume. But yeah, we've had like our biggest client triple to over a million a month in sales and we've had some other clients that have doubled during this period. So our biggest problem for those that we've been running out of stock. So what we've done is obviously we need to get on top of the inventory projections and help our client really map out now with this new volume or this new normal, what can we do to stay on top of the inventory? That's what we've been doing. Especially looking ahead to Q4. Amazon Prime Day is still as at the time of this recording on July 7th, we still don't know for sure what the date of Amazon Prime Day is, but it's looking like at least September is probably going to be the date unless it gets pushed. But you should still plan on that coming, right? And it's close enough to Black Friday and Cyber Monday, which I'm sure will still go on no matter what. So you should start bulking up your inventory and planning accordingly, because you can't sell stock that you don't have.

So I want to give a couple selfish plugs here. If you have a physical product brand and you're at least on pace for a million dollars or more and you're running into cash constraints, I run a fund called the Capitalism Fund, and you can apply to work with me over@capitalism.com fund. By the way, if I end up giving you money, one of the first things I'm gonna do is say, call Jeff Lieber and see if y' all are fit to work together. Because he is best in class at what he does. So full disclosure, I'm going to tell you to do that. But if you need money and advice, please contact me. I'm capitalism.com fund. Also, if you are a member of the tribe or the back room, we have some other financing options of people who provide capital for physical product brands. So if you want to be a member, it's capitalism.com tribe or capitalism.com backroom should be easy to remember. All right, so, Jeff, inventory issues are the biggest challenge that people are running into. One thing that you and I have talked about kind of informally that I would like to bring to the table is we have all this increase in volume happening on Amazon right now. And then there's a question of how do I turn those buyers into repeat customers? So somebody buys my resistance band on Amazon, how can I stay in front of them and remarket to them or sell our other products? And the reason I ask is because when somebody brings up that they don't want to take attention away from something like Shopify, it's usually because they control the customer. When it's on Shopify, I say it's a win when the product is in their home, not when you control the whole experience. That's what the win is. But what do you say when somebody is wanting to find strategies to stay in Front of the customer after they've bought on Amazon.

Yeah, and we're all for that. So a lot of our clients, they have great shopify stores and great volume and they want to try to distract the Amazon customers off. And we, you know, whatever their clients goals are, that's what our goals are and so we work with them to do that. So one of the ways that's, I mean depending on how you do it, it can be kind of gray area but you can put, you know, sort of a warranty card or sticker or a marketing card inside of your packaging that's you know, not explicitly selling them off of offline. But there's ways to get their customer information or their email. You can use QR codes, things like that. And then once you get them over, you can pixel them, you can retarget them, you can use their email. Once you own their email from that point, it's a gray area and there are slight risks to that depending on how you use it. Also with Amazon DSP ads, they have some cool ads where you can actually run, subscribe and save ads to them. So we've seen our clients that are in the supplement space or in spaces where there's repeat purchase or you know, subscriptions, their subscriptions have gone way up significantly. I know that's more on Amazon but, but yeah. And then from there.

What else? Yeah, I mean if you can get them, you know, off, off of, you know, Amazon and onto your website in any form, there's just, that's where the, the power is. But just building that audience, any way.

You brand that, that you can launch more products to that. I, I tell people the best time to get the customer data is before the purchase. So this is why I like to run Facebook ads, Instagram ads, sponsorships to an email list and then send them over to Amazon. That's how I like to do things. But once they've bought on Amazon, the way that I suggest is two things. One, have a great frickin product. Because if you don't have a great frickin product, you can do all the marketing in the world and it doesn't matter. But if you've got a great frickin product, then it's gonna be easier to stay in front of them and you're gonna get more word of mouth referrals as well. The second thing is to have some sort of cause that you stand for. So rather than trying to incentivize the person of getting another one for free or getting a discount or a warranty and all that stuff works just fine. But if you have a cause that you support and that you actually believe in and you talk about the cause and the inserts in your packaging, that can go a long way to building the brand, building customer relationships, and bringing that person back to your website where you can get their email address and pixel them and do all that stuff. So stand for something as a brand. If you do that, then you can lengthen the journey that the customer goes along with you, rather than it just being a one off transaction. Jeff, is there anything that is working particularly well right now that might have been different than a year ago? Because now we've got all this increased volume and momentum flooding the channel. Is there anything that's changed or that's working better than it used to?

Yeah. So, I mean, Amazon's always rolling out new futures. You just need to stay on top of it and use that data. So one is Amazon Storefront Source Tags is like, you know, kind of technical or whatever, but basically it's a way that you can finally track your external traffic that you're sending to Amazon and track the conversions, the sales through that. So, you know, that way you can, you know, predictably spend money off because clients used to, a couple years ago be like, well, I don't want to spend any dollars on a Facebook ad that goes to Amazon because it's a black hole. I don't know if it's profitable or not. But that, that's changed now. So there's ways to do that and it's called Storefront Source Tag. So. So that's really helped us scale with a lot of our clients because they were already spending money on Google Ads or Facebook or Instagram and now they can, you know, we can help them measure, you know, the results and then.

Scale it because I actually kind of know about this. So you can, you can now track the effectiveness of an external ad on Facebook. Is it, I'm sorry, on Amazon? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

All right, could you give us a 30 second overview of how that works? Because that's a, that's a, a bfd, as Michael Scott would say.

Yeah. So I could just make sure we put it in the show notes or something like that. I can make sure I send it to you after. I'll just make a note.

Sure.

But basically it's just a fancy link that Amazon will generate for you. So it's just a fancy link that you just. When you run the Facebook ad, Amazon will spit out that Storefront Source tag and Then you just put that in the ad and that's the link that goes. But because it's got the, you know, it's one of those long ugly links that, that's got all these mechanisms to.

The UTM code or whatever. It basically has a way of tracking where it came from and then it'll report your seller central account.

Exactly. It's very similar to the UTM tracking. Yep.

Beautiful. That's, that's a, that is a. That's a huge opportunity. Awesome. Anything else that's working particularly well if.

You haven't heard already, but they came out with the Request a review button. And you know, because I know reviews are very hard to come by and, but then Amazon gifted us with this awesome button and who knows how long it'll be there but the faster you can start using that and going back in time to all of your past customers, definitely recommend using that. There's also some other apps out there that made it even easier. I think Jungle Scout and Helium 10, I believe both have sort of like a plugin or something on their software that lets you do it even easier than the Amazon request a review button. So yeah, that's working really well right now as well.

So here's what's beautiful about this. If any of you are watching or listening and you think that you have missed the boat, Amazon volume is higher than it's ever been. And check this out. I honestly never thought that I would see this happen. Facebook and Instagram ads are cheaper than they were a few months ago because there's fewer advertisers. And now we got this crazy Facebook boycott happening where Unilever and North Face Verizon are pulling out of Amazon ads. These are the big advertisers, which means that people like you and me, who may only be running seven figure businesses have a whole lot more room to advertise. And now we can track it on Amazon and we can request reviews, which means the snowball starts to build faster. So you have not missed the boat. You're in inning three of a nine inning game. So like it's time to take some at bats but you got time to play this game really well. Jeff, I know that you have the whole presentation that you did for the shark Tank companies available somewhere. Would you tell us a little bit about what's in there?

Yeah, so because we did three live trainings and it was really expansive. So what we did is we condensed it down, covered the same exact steps, but we condensed it into like a 45 minute or 50 minute training. So, yeah, so we have the same steps that, you know, it's not just what we do for their companies, but it's what we do with our clients that we've done for years. And we just, you know, it's what helps people grow to seven or eight figures and beyond. So, yeah, we have that training available to the public now completely for free and be happy to, you know, put that on a page for you guys. I think we could. We'll make a page. I think we said capitalism.comamz that works. Yeah, amz like Amazon. So, yeah, we'll put that, that stuff there so that if you want to go watch that training, you know, it's there for you to use. Cool.

So capitalism.comamz is where you can see the training that Jeff did for this portfolio of shark tank companies. Jeff, I think you're the best in the business, so why don't you take a minute to give soft overview of what you guys do for your clients over at Turnkey. What kind of stuff are you doing to take this client from January and $300,000 a month to $1.1 million a month? So give a soft plug for what you do?

Yeah, sure. I mean, at the end of the day, it's whatever the client's goals are. That's what our goals are. And what we're the best in the world at is helping companies to grow their sales on Amazon. So that's what we do. Whether you're at 20K. I mean, we've helped Vita cup. We've published a case study on that. They started at seven grand a month, so it's not like you need to have 200 grand as a starting point. Vitacup started at 7k. We took them to over 300k a month in 6 months. And we've helped people from just launching their first product. We have a combination of full service fully done for you, and then we also have some done with you services as well. So if you want to, if you're ready to grow your business to the next level, or you just want an outside set of eyes to be like, can you help me to that next level? Are we a good fit? We'll make sure. On that same page, we'll put a button for you to book a call with us if you're interested in us helping you grow your business. And if not, it's no big deal. We'll still chat about your business and you'll learn something about how you can grow no matter what.

So sometimes people ask me who should use an agency versus who should manage things themselves. And the way that I say it is, if you want to be an Amazon Channel expert, then you should do it all yourself. Like if you're. If what you want is to be all plugged into the nuts and bolts of Amazon, then you should do it yourself. If you want to build a brand or a business, then your efforts are better spent in building audience, launching new products and building the foundation of the business. And you probably can't do that and do Amazon as well as somebody who is obsessed with it and manages some of the biggest accounts in the world. So if you're in the brand building mode of your business, where you are in business and you want to be actively building more products and more audience and more followers and more customers, then you either want to hire somebody who's obsessed with Amazon or you want to partner with somebody who is already established and managing some of the biggest accounts in the world. And the person that I recommend most often is Jeff at Turnkey. Jeff, you are always generous with your time and your advice. I know this is a crazy time for a bunch of Amazon sellers, so thanks for telling us what's working right now. Is there a place where people can follow or find you?

Yeah, I mean, just head over to I guess capitalism.comamz we'll put just a bunch of goodies there and the free training and if you want to chat with us, that's where you can do that. So honestly, that's the best place I would go there. But if you're just browsing or whatever, head over to turnkeyproductmanagement.com that's where all of our good stuff is. We have a podcast called the Playbook for Amazon Podcast. But yeah, you can find me any of those places.

All right, Jeff, thanks for hanging out with me, man. Good to see you.

Thanks, Ryan.