How To Build An Amazing Network w/ John Ruhlin #TheOnePercent

Most people, what they don't do is they don't, they don't love on their relationships, whether they're cold or whether they're warm. They don't do it in the right way, they don't do it thoughtfully. They do it in a way that it feels very slimy or feels very automated. And really the core of giftology is just love. Like it's just loving on people. And if you can do that with no strings attached, like, that's beautiful.

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John rulin, welcome to capitalism.com thanks for having me, Ryan. So I like to start these off by asking first, how do you make your money?

I make it a couple different ways, but the core of what we do is we own Giftology, which is essentially a gifting company that we. I started 19 years ago, kind of on accident, but now we have education courses speak and we started to with our consulting division. We started to take investments in some of our consulting client.

So I know you have. We'll talk about Giftology quite a bit because that's how the heck we met. And that's why I call you the genie. You just. You just make random things happen.

I love that name. I mean, especially with Will Smith in the movie Aladdin. I take great pride in that term.

It's amazing what you do. And we'll get to that. The other half of this is that you started taking equity in companies and basically turning them around, right?

Correct.

And what gives you the expertise to do that? Why do people give you equity in the company?

Well.

I try to surround myself with people that are way smarter than I am. And so I'd like to say it's because I'm this genius or genie. But my business partner, Rod, who a lot of people think is a figment.

Of my imagination, I've met him.

You've actually met him. But there's a lot of people that have known me for a decade. They're like, is Rod just the guy that is in your head that says no? So if you don't want to do something or you don't want to make a purchase, you're like, oh, yeah, Rod, just shut it down.

But in reality, Rod, before he bought 50% of ruling group and Giftology and everything really that I do, he was a CEO consultant, and then got hired as a hired gun to go turn around companies. But he never got ownership. He was always just. He got a nice salary. And when we met, we actually, ironically enough, met at a Christian rock concert third day.

Like 15.

You remember those guys?

Hell yeah. Remember third day.

So we're in Akron, Ohio, at the Arrows ballpark, and I recognized Rod's wife because we all went to the same college. They were four years older than I was.

And he was working for a top 100 accounting firm. And so I called on him as a client because he was working down in Amish country down in central Ohio for Ray and Associates. And so we had like a four hour lunch and we realized his skill set was way different than my skillset. And so we just really connected. Same core values, faith. And we started to look for companies to buy together because we're like, man, with your operational skills and your strategy and my marketing and relationships and we could do some damage. And ironically enough, either businesses we wanted to buy, they backed out or we backed out.

So I just need to highlight something. Yeah, the thing that you brought to the table was your network and your relationships, right?

Yeah.

So you are basically in the zone of you're. You meet people because of what you do on giftology, which we're going to go into. But that's your singular asset that you've married to Rod's expertise of operations and turnarounds. Is that correct?

Yeah.

So you open doors and create opportunities and relationships. Rod is your integrator in the sense.

No question. I'm the visionary, he's the implementer. He's the integrator.

Cool.

So the interesting thing about that is that you, you are not the turnaround guy, but you take ownership in companies to turn them around because you are really good at what you do, which is building a world class network.

Yeah.

Okay, so I understand. I didn't know that. And that's super fascinating.

Yeah, well, it started with Cutco, the knife company. I mean my. Yeah, I got really good at selling based upon relationships. People, you know, we became the number one Cutco distributor all time out of 1.5 million. Rod saw that. He's like, man, you're good at selling. I'm like, I'm not really good at selling. I'm good at connecting with people and solving problems and figuring out their need and opening doors. I'm a farm boy. I'm naturally more introverted. I'm not like your hardcore closer. But Rod saw the skills that he doesn't have. He's not a starter. He's taking something small and growing it or turning something around. So, yeah, we basically saw each other's skill sets and we're like, man, this could be interesting.

So if you're listening to the podcast right now and you're wondering, okay, what the hell does this have to do with me? Here's where I'm going with this.

Naval Ravikant. Do you know naval.

Naval kind of famously said, if you wanna get rich you have to own something. You don't get rich trading hours for dollars. You get rich by owning a piece of a business and owning assets. And what's interesting to me about where we've gone in the first five minutes of this is that you had a skill, and you leveraged that skill to get ownership in businesses. And you had to meet somebody. You had to meet that person. But now you're able to leverage that core skill set of relationships and network to get a piece of businesses. I'm just gonna put this out into the world and the universe now. I'm looking for my rod.

I've discovered that my singular skill is communicating. It's communication. And I want it to be at scale. And I don't have my rod. And I'm looking for my rod for this exact reason, because I know what I'm good at. And then if you partner it with the right people, you create rocket fuel.

So I think we kind of have this story in our heads a lot of times that we have to be good at everything.

You are self.

Admittedly not good at everything. You're good at one thing, which is creating relationships, building a network, and you partnered with somebody, and you're one plus one equals five. In that case, I'm done. Enough rambling, John.

No, I lied. I'm gonna ramble some more. Let me tell the audience how we met. We went to an event together. We did not meet at the event.

A week or so after the event, I get this shipment in the mail. Esther's like two days old. She's, like two months old at this point. I get the shipment in the mail of this Cleveland Indians memorabilia. One of them is a. I believe. I think there was a signed bat.

Yep.

There might have been a signed baseball in there, too. And no return address.

No notes.

And I go, wtf is this? I look up the sender, and it's somebody who works for the Indians. Had, like, nine Twitter followers. I have no idea where it came from. And then I post on social media. Does any. Did anyone send this to me? A week after that? You were like, oh, hey, saw your post. That was me. We didn't meet at Mastermind talks. Saw you liked the Indians. Hope you enjoy it.

Yep.

It was three more years, I think, until we ever connected face to face, probably.

I think I said we had done some work with the Indians or a client, and we sent a set of headphones, I think, as well.

That's right. That's right.

That had the logo on it that we had done for Them. So, yeah, I sent a couple things just randomly. What's interesting is I didn't even realize that we went to the same Mastermind Talks event. I sent it just because I saw we had some common mutual friends and I liked what you're up to. I wasn't in E Commerce. I was just like, he seems like a good guy. He's from Ohio. He's doing some good things.

One of the guys I follow from afar and Connor, a number of people are good friends with him. Harvey McKay, who wrote how to Swim with Sharks without being Eaten Alive, he wrote a book called Dig youg well before you're Thirsty. And so I've just always taken that to heart to love on people and build relationships with them before I need anything or before I don't have some hidden objective. But it's fun to do, whether you meet somebody at the blackjack table or the airplane or sitting next to them at the Cavs game or, or whatever else. But I saw what you're up to and I'm like, man, he's doing some cool stuff. I'm going to. I'm just going to surprise and delight him and see what happens. And so, yeah, we. Yeah, it was at least three years before we.

Yeah. So I think one of the mistakes.

That'S so obvious to see in other.

People is that they don't dig the well, they just go for the ask. And so networking is more like horse trading than it is relationship building. And what I think you're up to is you have basically used amazing experiences and gifts in order to open up relationships. And then you just say, whatever happens out of this relationship is cool.

It might be.

This might become a friendship, this might become a business contact. I have no idea. But that's how you get in the door to build a world class network.

Yeah.

Is that a fair summary?

Yeah, I think. I mean, Gary Vee made it popular. You know the jab, jab, jab, right hook.

Yeah.

What most people do is they. They jab, jab, jab, you know, and that's over the course of like three days or three weeks. And then they go for the ask. They're like, why jabbed? I jab, I jab three times or I jabbed six times. I'm like, but you didn't let things evolve. You didn't, you know, offer value. Offer value, offer value and then let some time lapse before you go in for the jugular. And so I think, you know, a lot of companies will hire us to do gifting for them. And they get excited about doing the prospecting, which we do for a lot of companies. But what I end up doing is talking them out of doing that and saying, why don't you just love on your warm network and start jabbing, jabbing, jabbing? Because eventually you're gonna either want to grow that account or ask for referrals or whatever else. And most people, what they don't do is they don't. They don't love on their relationships whether they're cold or whether they're warm. They don't do it in the right way. They don't do it thoughtfully. They do it in a way that it feels very slimy or feels very automated. And really, the core of giftology is just love. Like, it's just loving on people. And if you can do that with no strings attached, like, that's beautiful. Like, nobody likes to be manipulated. We all like to be treated vip. And so that's the core of what we're both trying to teach people to do. And then there's a certain percentage of people that are like, man, that's really hard to do at scale. Can you help me do that? Not only think through it, but how do I switch gifts for a thousand relationships or 10,000 relationships? But yeah, it's that long. Everybody says they play the long game, but most people's long game is seven days. And that's not a long game. It's just not.

Yeah, so you have people who go to you, to your clients. How you make your money inside of giftology is people are working with you to both maintain relationships through your gifting process and open up new ones.

Yeah. Loyalty insurance.

Loyalty insurance. That's cool. What I. What I appreciate about what you just said is that.

Starting most people are under loving their warm circle. There's. There's a transaction that's happening, and you just assume that everything's cool. Something different happens when you just go all in on loving that warm circle. Question for you.

Almost everyone has a. I'll just say everyone. Everyone has a warm circle. And in the world in which we are constantly bombarded with new relationships that are fake on social media, and yet the opportunity to meet anyone in the world at any time because of social media, how are you identifying the warm circle to which you go all in on at first. So when you're working with a client, how are you identifying the warm circle?

Well, I mean, most of the people that are hiring us are selling something. They could be selling insurance. They could be selling widgets. They could be selling you know, the Indians are selling, you know, sweets or sponsorship or whatever it is. So there's people that oftentimes, whether you're a sales rep or whether you're a small entrepreneur, you have a group of people that are giving you money, like, and oftentimes it's a lot of money. Like, relative, you know, there's 10,000, 10 million, whatever the numbers are. And so starting with the people that are already paying you. And. But most people would say, well, they're already a client. I don't have to do that. Why would I do that? And I'm like, well, that's when it means the most. It's like in any relationship, most people, when they get married, they're like, you know, I put the ring on it. I said, I do. You know, like, they take things for granted. And relationships that thrive are where once you already have somebody and you don't have to do it, that's when you do it. Yeah, just because. Because of the relationship. And so we walk them through. Like, I what's interesting, I will spend more money on my vendors that I spend millions of dollars with than most people spend on their best clients. And people like John, why would you, like Cutcoat, we do millions of dollars with them. Why would you send the people you buy knives from? Like, why would you send them gifts? I'm like, guess what? I don't have a business unless I have vendors that provide products for me to buy. And I learned that from this 800 million dollar company, O.C. tanner. They're the largest seller of Rolex in the world. They buy tens of millions of dollars of Rolex. When Rolex comes to Utah, they take them and buy dinner for the Rolex reps. And the reason is we value the fact that we can buy Rolex from you. We treat the person we're spending money with like they're the customer because we're grateful. And at the same time, I buy gifts for my insurance people. I buy gifts for the people I buy all kinds of products from. And so when you can look at all of your relationships, 360 degrees. And what's interesting is when I treat my vendors that way, what do they do? They look for ways to refer me deals. I could send that deal to anybody, but they send it to me. And I don't always do it just because of that. Like, I don't have an expectation of, like, I bought you gifts, now you better send me referrals. And so the idea of looking at your influencers, your referral partners, your Clients, past clients. I'll send gifts to people that haven't done business with me in five years. Hey, appreciate, like, I wouldn't have gotten to where I'm at if you hadn't believed in me back then. And they may never become a client again, but they might be golfing with somebody three years from now and have a conversation. And so people, they don't realize that when you can build those bridges and plant those seeds. And so we walk a lot of our clients through. We say we can help you get referrals without asking because most people don't feel comfortable asking. We did. We actually, for some of our clients, teach us how to do that. So we built like a little course and we offer it to our clients for free. And it's walking them through the methodology of how to do that. Your tribe, they want to go download it for free. It's referrals with no asking. But that mindset of loving.

Referrals with no asking. Dot com.

Yeah, but love, love, love. Like most people do, you know, they do the token gift at Christmas. I'm like, I send my most important relationship something four times a year out of the blue, never at the holidays. And so when you can start to get that mentality of here's my warm market. Who are all of those people, 360 degrees who believed in me? Who would I not, you know, like mentors, advisors. Maybe it's your high school, you know, science teacher, whoever it is. But when you can start to look at all the people that have believed in you to get to you, to where you're at today, whether that's a million dollar entrepreneur or a billion dollar company, people are like, oh, my gosh, like, I thought My list was 20, and I just didn't know. I actually have probably 400 people I need to say thank you to, which is overwhelming. But it's also like, wow, there's been a lot of people that have poured into you. That's pretty powerful.

I am. I'm really big on this idea right now. Probably because it was just such a meaningful shift in my own thinking when I had this of you.

We live in this world where I think loneliness is kind of an epidemic because we're all hiding behind screens all the time. And we miss this tribal connection that we have that we're biologically wired to have. But the truth is we all have a tribe. We all have people that we're interacting with. We all have people that got us to this point, and we're neglecting them. And the Minute that I had this sense of like, I need to shift and focus on my tribe, taking care of my tribe. My. It's like my team members, my family, my mentors, my inner circle that creates this. This like, vortex that makes it really easy to take care of the next level out, which is customers, followers, listeners. And I know that that creates a bit of a vortex for them to impact their tribes. And so you don't change the world by going out. You change the world by cultivating this tribe of your inner circle. And that's how I'm hearing you say, like, you start with the warm audience.

Yeah, it's really just people that are numbers people. Because my business partner Rod is very much a numbers guy and he's like, we're investing a dollar. Over time, it should produce $5, it should produce $10, should produce $100. And so it's not like just sit around and hold hands and sing Kumbaya. What's interesting is what ends up happening is you're right, it. It creates a ripple effect. It creates a halo effect. You start to attract other types of people into your life. Or, you know, like people say, well, how do you determine who to give to? And I'm like, I try to give to other givers if I can within my warm market because there's a multiplication effect. And, you know, for Rod's seen it like, I went from charging five grand to speak to now charge 30 grand. And, you know, like, my speaking hasn't gotten six times better. But my relationships of people willing to advocate the Cameron Heralds of the world are willing to stick their neck out and book me on stages I probably don't deserve to be on. Now I've gotten to be a decent speaker. I have a great message, but it's because I've created this ripple effect where people are going out and doing things that doesn't make logical sense because they're inspired by the gift. They're inspired by the door that was open. They're inspired by the act of the random act of kindness. And so there is a true roi. The challenge is we try to box it up and say, what's my 30 day metric on this? And what they end up doing is ruining it. Because relationships thrive when you're able to pour into people with no strings attached. That's when it comes back like we're. Whether you believe in a God or not, like the human beings are wired for reciprocity within a tribe. Like, when you do something for me, oftentimes you want to Come back, you don't do it equally. You end up doing it a little bit more. And then I do it to you a little bit more and it creates this multiplication effect. And so business, there are businesses out there that are doing this really, really well. But it feels weird, it feels awkward. It feels like, why? If I can't measure it in a week or a month, then I don't want to do it. And what I love is if everybody was a great gift giver and everybody was doing what we're doing, it would just be more marketing noise. But because most people suck at it so bad, when you do it, it shocks people. It's like the bat showed up. Now if it was the 140th bat you had received, you'd be like, oh, that's cool. But you know, how many bats have you received randomly in the mail that were signed?

1.

Most people, it's that way. I've had people come up to me in their blinged out in a million dollars in jewelry because a lot of our gifts include the family, they include the spouse. And I've had people come up, you know, from 500 million dollar companies. And you know, the wife is in tears. And I'm like, I sent you like three engraved knives. It was like a $300 gift. Like, you, you probably like spent that, you know, like on wine tonight. And she. And they'll be like, John, in 30 years, this is the first time anybody ever treated me with respect. They treated me with like a peer. They didn't treat me like arm candy. Like, they loved on you. You showed me respect. You communicated that through the gift of the knives or the gift of the whatever. And so, you know, I'm the really, in 30 years, like, it's like shocking to me. It's like, it's awesome that I had that kind of impact for a client. But it's also kind of sad that that isn't. It isn't more common, it isn't more regular.

So the interesting thing there is like.

There was a big opportunity because the wife.

Excuse me, I got a sneeze that's caught.

The wife was under appreciated in the business context.

Yep.

So you showed her $300 worth of appreciation and now your. The wife is talking to the 500 million dollar client about how amazing she feels because of you.

Yeah. So I've had so many people come to me and say, john, I feel like. And they go to their clients and they're like, I feel like I'm sleeping with your sales rep. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, you got. Like, my wife is asking about you or the client. Like, every. Like, have you had. Have you had dinner with John recently? Have you done, like, I can't believe you've made that sort of impression on my wife. Like, she goes, like, we travel nice, we fly first class, all these other things. But because of your act of kindness, because of the tangible artifact that you sent, like, you. You, like, you hit her in an emotional state. And I had, you know, we had it happen with assistants of, like, pro sports teams, where the assistant becomes my. The sales advocate, like, going out of their way to open doors because they. They've always been treated like a gatekeeper, like a pawn, somebody to get around versus treating them with respect.

And so I have given this advice before, and I'll give it again. If you are in a. If you're resetting in your life or you are at a point where you're pursuing something new, the best thing you can do is make a list of 10 people within your network, your warm circle, as we call, are calling it, and send them a handwritten thank you card for how they impacted your life, and then book a time to talk with them. Lunch, breakfast, over the phone, doesn't matter. And ask about them. What do they need? What do they want? What are they up to? Eventually, the conversation will come back to.

You and they'll say, what about you? And you can say, honestly, I'm in transition right now.

Or you can say, this is what I'm up to. You won't make it down the list before new opportunities have opened up. What you're talking about is going one step further of shocking them with kindness. So tell me about a time that you just absolutely shocked someone with. With kindness that they didn't expect, besides sending them a baseball bat signed by Carlos Santana. And three years later, here we are.

Yeah, well, to that point, if I can comment, there was a study done. I forget which university did the study, but they said that if you would take that letter that you wrote and go in person and read it to the person about what their life has meant to you, like, your happiness in gratitude will go up in joy. And so will it. Wow. And you'll probably both cry. It's one of the more powerful things. The handwritten note is so powerful that I won't allow clients to send out gifts unless it can come with a handwritten note. But if you can read the handwritten notes to the other person and look them in the eye and read what you're saying or what you're feeling like. I get emotional just thinking about it, but it's one of the most powerful things as a human being you can do for another human being is.

Show that gratitude. And to do it in person just takes it up another 10 levels. You'll walk away on a high, and they will too. They'll never forget it.

Noted. That's my braingasm for the day. But if you're not in person with somebody.

Yeah.

If you're not in person, you send them amazing things. So tell me the story of one.

Yeah. So somebody else that I met, that I read. One of the first books I read was the Jeffrey Gittamer book. He's like the number one sales author, wrote the Little Red Book of sales. Had a big impact on me when I was selling knives with Cutco and I met him at a conference and I followed up with him and he wouldn't respond to any of my emails or whatever else. I'm like, dude sold 4 million books. He's speaking all the world. So I sent him an empty $4,000 knife block, and I sent him a different knife set for 18 straight months about. And they're all personalized to him and his girlfriend. And for 18 straight months, every month he got a different package. And when the set was complete, he reached out and said, john, you're the most pleasantly persistent sob. Except he didn't say sob. He said, I'm not promising anything, but if you fly down to Charlotte, I'll spend a few hours with you. And Jeffrey's not somebody. He is very black and white, very opinionated, and doesn't endorse very many people. But we hit it off. And he since become a client, a raving fan advocate. I've been on a show multiple times, and he still laughs. He's like, john, there's times at 5am I'll be leaving for a trip or whatever else, I'll be using one of your damn knives. And I want to text a picture to send to you because I'm thinking about you whether I want to be or not.

And so we've since done other crazy, crazy gifts. I can think of another speaker, Cameron, who's a mutual friend. We did the. I saw him speak at an EO event and was like, I want him to be a mentor and advisor, somebody in my corner. And I can't afford his, like $10,000 a month coaching. And I found out that he loved Brooks Brothers. So when he came to Cleveland, went and filled his, found out what his shirt size and clothing size was. I went and bought $7,000. I basically bought everything at Brooks Brothers in the new fall collection and ironically enough in Cleveland at the Ritz, and filled his hotel room with $7,000. And when he came downstairs after seeing it, he said, john, I thought when I flew first class to Dubai, they remember my name and whatever else. He said, I've already called authors and changed quotes of the best experience I've ever had. Whatever you want to talk about for as long as you want to talk about it, wow, I'm all ears. And so we've done some pretty crazy things. Ironically, when I spoke at Google, they're like, we can't afford $7,000 for all of our clients. And I'm like, you're Google. Actually you probably could. But secondly, Cameron came back to me, said, John, the experience of what you did.

The personalization, the way you made me feel was the gift. I can't let you buy the clothes on top of that. So he's like, either I'm going to write a check for how much they cost or I'm going to guess and round up by 50%. So people that want to hang, like most people will say, john, that's great. I could never do seven grand. They get hung up on the number. That experience cost me zero dollars. And the reason we're charging 30 grand for keynotes is because Cameron, before I had a book or anything, was recommending me. He's done things that $10 million in advertising couldn't do because of that strategic act of kindness. So it's not about the dollars, it's about the being bold, going all in. Most people hold back 10% because they're afraid to be taken advantage of. They're afraid to look silly. They usually ask themselves the question, what's the least I can get away with here and still have somewhat of an impact or try to be somewhat memorable? And my original mentor, Paul, who is a rainmaker, I saw him at his when he was 60, I wanted his life because everybody loved him in town and he had deals that came from 30 year relationships. And I decided at that point in time I was 20, I was like, I want his life. When I'm 60, I want to be able to take a three hour lunch and not be stressed. And so Paul never asked himself, what's the least I can do? He lived his life saying, what's the most I can do here? And that one shift of a question changes everything in all of our relationships.

So in your case, you're not trying to short term calculate the ROI on relationships. You know that relationships are the highest ROI in the world, period. And you've watched that play out. You've watched it play out over and over and over and over again. Which is why now you're able to take equity in companies.

Yeah.

Because of the relationships that You've built over 19 years running this product process. I was gonna ask you, you know, what, what the budget of the average gift is, but after you just said that, it doesn't matter. It's about, do you, does somebody have the experience that gets them to remember you?

Yep. I mean, we have our. So what I'll say is that when people hire us, they assume either that we're a swag company, so it's like, oh, what can I get for $73.14? And I'm like, we don't do polo shirts and crap with logos on it. Like, the logo is not a gift. The logo is a promotional product. And there's a big difference between what those two things are. A gift by its very nature is recipient focused, not brand focused. And that's where even billion dollar brands mess up. Like when I sent gifts after I spoke at Google, I sent gifts to them even though, like, I went in and spoke for them and a couple of the assistants were like, john, this is a nicest gift I've ever gotten in nine years. And so I called them, I said, why? And they said, well, first off, I use the. I sent them a bunch of knives. They said, I use it every day, but it had my name on it. It didn't have the Google logo on it. It's the first time in nine years anybody ever treated me like a human being, not like a number or, or a brand. And so oftentimes it's not the dollar amount, it's the, you know, it's the thoughtfulness behind it, but it's personalizing it. Even if I send out to this day our budget, probably this year will be about a half a million dollars for gifts.

I never put giftology on any gift. And people are like, well, how are they going to remember it? I'm like, if I gave you a Rolex, would you ever. Would I have to put giftology on it to remind you of where it came from? And they're like, no, that's stupid. I'd never forget where it came from. Like, exactly. If you give a world class, thoughtful gift that's personal to them, even if it's the same gift you've given to a Thousand other people based upon how you personalize it, the note, all those things, you follow the system that we've developed, there is a way to make that person feel a certain thing that they can't unfeel. Like, it's just. It's locked in their memory. And so we don't do the trinkets, but we also don't do a lot of Rolexes. Like, it is possible to send somebody a $50,000 watch and have them not feel good. It could feel like you're trying to bribe them or buy them or manipulate them. So there is a sweet spot. Most of the gifts that we, when people hire us, do their gifting. It's the same cost as a nice dinner out, ball game tickets, or round of golf. So most of the things we do are in the $200 to $1,200 range. They're thoughtful, they're meaningful, they're tangible. Not trinkets. But they're not Louis vuitton bags for 20 grand either. There's a sweet spot of what feels comfortable, feels thoughtful, but doesn't feel like you're trying too hard or that you're making too much money off of somebody's account. And so that's the sweet spot of where when people are wanting to engage us, I'm like, don't go cheap. Don't go, like stupid luxury just because you can afford it. Like, there's a thoughtfulness there in that. That. That's the tension that we normally play in. Not that you can't spend 20 grand, but it's not usually necessary. It's usually a waste of money, or it can actually have a negative impact.

Yeah. So it's. It's not really about. It's actually more about the thoughtfulness than it is about the gift.

Gift. The gift is just a tangible delivery vehicle for the emotion. It's a gift should. The goal of it being tangible versus experiential is that every time they use the. Like, in Western society, we don't need more stuff. Like, your house is full of stuff. My house is full of stuff. I have a box that goes to Goodwill every week of stuff that people send me. And it's usually. Even if it's nice, it's Bose headphones, but it has Allstate logo on the side. I'm like, I don't want to wear Allstate on the side of my head, even if it's a Bosette of headphones. But most people don't need more things. But we all want to be appreciated and Treated vip. We all crave that acknowledgement, that recognition. And so the gift should be just a tangible reminder of the relationship. Like that makes you smile when you see the bat. Maybe you think of John ruling or, or you think of our relationship and our time together that we spent at the, you know, the Indians game or whatever it is. That's what the gift should be. Every time they use it or see it, they're reminded subconsciously of that relationship. And when you like, everybody wants to be the most top of mind person to get the referral, to get the deal, to get the first phone call. And that's what I saw in Paul. Paul always was the first phone call. Why? Because he was the most generous person in town. He wasn't the wealthiest, but he had the most relationships. And because of that he was a great attorney. He made a hundred times more money off of non attorney related things because the real estate that became the Walmart, he got the phone call for that. The new hotel project in town, he got the fall for that. And it was because he was the most like trusted and top of mind person. And it was because of his generosity. Not because of billboards, not because of Facebook ads. Nothing wrong with any of those things. But because he was the most top of mind person with his generosity, he won out over everybody else. He was always the first phone call. And I'm like, man, I don't need to be the whale, but if I can be the first phone call that a whale makes, you know, I'll be that minnow all day long. I just, I want to surround myself with those whales and have them take my phone call and be willing to make the phone call. And that's, that's how I viewed my network is I don't have to be the biggest, the flashiest or whatever, but if I can have that depth of relationship and be top of mind and that's really what the gifting and the generosity and the ethology kind of principles are built around.

When a client comes to you, how.

Do they usually approach you?

Do they have a list of people in mind.

Or are they going to you and me? Like I heard you talk about this and I think it's a good idea. What is the usual approach?

That's a lot. Or they hear that we do gifting and they automatically put us in the category of oh, so you're like the promo company or the swag company or the incentive company or the whatever, they'll put us in that category or they'll come and they'll say, yeah, I heard you speak. This is great. But in their mind, they've already kind of pigeonholed you into, you know, like, here's what our gifting budget is. I'm like, I don't care what your past gifting budget is. Like, tell me the type of business you have. Tell me the size of business you have. Tell me about your relationships. Tell me what you're investing in, marketing and business development and all those things. And let's forget your gifting budget. Let's just redirect a percentage of your marketing towards not your top, not your 20,000 relationships. Let's drill down into the 200 that matter. Tell me who those people are. Tell me, are they married? Do they have kids? How old are they? What are they like? Let's focus there. Because a lot of times people, they tend to want to just do something for everybody. So it ends up being a calendar to everybody or the same travel trip or whatever. Because they view gifting as an afterthought versus realizing that it's a tangible. How you show gratitude to somebody. Like, if you look in old, ancient texts, Old Testament is a great example. Like, kings would give other kings, like, a thousand head of cattle because they realized that represented the value of the relationship. That was the tangible representation that you are a king that matters. And I want to partner with you. We're still human beings. We're still like people, you know, we're still human beings like we were 5,000 years ago. Like, we still want to be honored. We still want to want to be thoughtful. But in our western culture, we think, oh, well, like, we gotta do something. We made money this year. We probably should send something. And so you delegate it. First off, you don't even think twice. You're like, you know, hey, Susie, here's 10 grand. Go talk to that gifting guy. Like, we had a. You know, we got 10,000 relationships. See what you can make happen. And so oftentimes, I'm like, suzy, you're in an impossible situation. Let's get the CEO to have a conversation. Because. Because the way that they're thinking about gifting is.

Basically they're thinking about it like a transaction, like a transactional relationship.

And they're thinking about, like, just to check the box of to do items.

Which is how most people build a network.

Yeah.

That's how. That's how most people build relationships. Because.

It is not a relationship. It is a transaction.

Yeah. It's a tit for tat.

Right?

You gave me this, and that's One of the reasons when people say, john, I want to hire your firm to do referral gifts, I'm like, we don't do referral gifts. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, your financial advisor, somebody sends you a client, it's $2 million assets under management. You know, you're going to send them a $200, like, Starbucks gift card or a $300 gift card to Morton's. In their head, they're thinking, I sent you the referral because I wanted you. Them to be well taken care of. I like you. I like them. I knew this would be a fit. You just devalued and defaced and actually created like, a weird, uncomfortable, slimy feeling subconsciously for them because they're thinking, you're making 20 grand off of that relationship per year, and you just sent me a $200. Like, that's not even. That's not equal. It's better to send a gift just because. And let that inspire a referral versus doing the tip for free tap thing. You know, gift with a purchase. Nobody feels like they're VIP and they have a deep relationship because they bought cologne and got the bag, you know, thrown in. Like, that's not a. That's not a gift. That's a gift with a purchase that's really a promotional item. Whereas if something just showed up out of the blue from somebody that was personal and thoughtful, like, wow, this. They thought of me. They thought, you know, like, that means something emotionally. And so it's.

It's not.

Not a. Yeah, most people are in the transactional, and it's the reason that they might have a million followers on social media. But would any of those people, you know, like, go out of their way to refer a deal? Would any of those people really take your phone call? Are they really looking out for you? Or is it just a number? Is it just a transaction? And for me, I would much rather have 10, what I call actively loyal relationships, which means they're going out of their way to advocate for. For me versus having 10,000 people that I'm connected to that do nothing. They sit on their hands and do nothing for me. And that's where people get caught up into the numbers. And they don't realize the power of having somebody that's really actively loyal and really a true relationship versus just a follower.

Well, John, I know we need to go to dinner because you gifted me All Star game tickets.

The Indians away. The Indians. And, yeah, Jacob's field awaits.

That's Right. So.

I just want to kind of emphasize the end of this conversation with.

The reason why most people don't meet the people and connect with the network and the people they want is because they're thinking about them, not the other person. And what you have done so well is your first thought is let's think about the person and let's punt what I'm gonna get out of it for 18 months sometimes or three years in the case of us meeting face to face and you just kind of punt the result. I mean, I know people can work with you, but if somebody, if you were to give somebody one shift on how they show up in these types of relationships, what would you want to leave them with?

I would say.

Something I saw Paul live that I tried. I tried, you know, something I want on my tombstone, which is to, to go into all relationships looking to give more than is reasonable. I think most people don't want to look silly. They hold back. And I saw Paul do unreasonable things his entire life and because of that he reaped unreasonable things over the course of decades. And so, you know, it's cool to say that relationship building and business is a marathon. It's another thing to live that way. And what I'd say is that if you can treat, start at home, start with your, remove business from the equation and start treating your parents, your spouse, your kids, your personal relationships differently.

And yes, it works in business, but make it a, commit to doing it as a heart set and mindset and lifestyle shift for the long term. Because if you decide to do this as a tactical for the next six month thing, it's people. Either A, when you switch gears six months from now, it'll actually create more backlash or B, people will start to see through it. And I think that when you can go all in and say, you know what, this is just how I'm going to show up to people, even if I don't feel like it. For me, it became addictive. It became like, man, this is fun. This is a fun way to show up and live life. And yes, there's sometimes you're going to get kicked in the teeth and taken advantage of, but who cares? The one oak tree out produces the other nine seeds that fall on soil that doesn't turn into anything. And so what I would say is that giving more than is reasonable, showing up differently at home and committing to it not for six months, but for the long haul. That's what I would say. And I challenge anybody to do it for the next three years and come back to me and say, you know what, it wasn't worth it. I've never had anybody come back.

I've had the recent shift in my life of.

Realizing how good it feels to just be a giver. And I've realized how selfish I've been without knowing it for most of my career and how much better I feel when I just give without expectation. So thank you for being an example of that. Keep on changing the world, buddy.

Thanks, Matt.

Thanks, Sean.

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