How To Turn $0 into $40M w/ Mike Viskovich

Every choice you have made has resulted in this company. The growth has come from having all these roadblocks and finding the self awareness to get through them. I just saw my competitors were that big. I knew that our product was the same kind of a product. It was better. It was a mindset shift to like, why not nine figures? They were doing it. So then why couldn't we do it? That's still the whole game of business. It's like if you don't think it's possible, you just won't do it.

Mike. I remember it feels like yesterday, but we were sitting a couple of feet from where I'm sitting right now in this room. And you were running a business that was doing about $2 million a year. Now you're more than 10x that a few years later. I'm curious, from your perspective, do you remember what was going through your head and what challenges you were facing when you were at 2,2 million sitting in this room where I am right now.

Man, that's a long time ago. It's honestly probably the same similar challenges. It's funny, it's like I'm always like, how do I grow? How do I grow? And like no matter how big big you get, I always think I'm trying to, trying to find that kind of next growth lever. It's like it's this kind of drug that you never want to, you just can't stop trying to kind of think about. But definitely a different business. I'm trying to think, think back that long ago. If I, if I recall, we would have had a far smaller team. It probably would have been like back in those days, it would have been at like 2 mil. It would have been like I was probably doing most of the stuff myself. I might have had, I think like dad was helping with some inventory purchases. I was like cranking on the customer service. It was a different, it was a different time. Honestly, I just, I can't remember. It's been such a ride, Mike.

I remember being, being in the room together and you being at 2 million and you ran the calculation about what some of your biggest competitors were doing. And I think I remember you discovering that one of your competitors was doing $100 million a year. And I saw this light bulb come on in your mind. Do you remember that moment? And if so, what was going through your head as that light bulb came on?

I definitely remember the moment where I decided I wanted to. This could be like a nine figure exit brand because I was actually, I think we were at your Mastermind was, you know, like an eight, eight figure exits kind of mastermind focus. And I was like, well I just saw my competitors with that bag. I knew that our product was the same kind of a product. It was better. It just kind of, it was a mindset shift to like why not nine figures? Because they were doing it. So then why couldn't we do it? And I think that's the, that's still the whole game of business. It's like everybody has these kind of blocks without getting kind of a little bit side sidetracked. Like, I think one of the bigger reasons for the success of Bodify has just been like me being able to open up my actual mindset into thinking it's possible. Because if you don't think it's possible. Yeah. You just can't, you just won't do it. So same same that it can peddler was doing. It was like, it got me just pumped. It wasn't like I could do that do that. And it was like, damn, I've, I've got to do this now because, because they're doing it like and they're no different to me. So you know, that was the, that was a shift for sure.

So at what point did you know that bold if I could be an eight or a nine figure brand? Because you're, you're sitting here at 2 million, which at the time for you was, was pretty good. You were pretty happy with that success. But at some point you decided, no, this can really be something much bigger. Most entrepreneurs don't make that shift. When did you know that it could be an eight figure business?

I think I only truly deep down like I would bet on it kind of recently actually. It's always been to me like believe first and then, you know, the evidence starts to come in after that. So it was never like I really believed it. And I think actually in all honesty, until that kind of check hits the bank, I would never really, really believe it in every cell. Because you never know, right. I can always go to zero. Like anybody can always go to zero. But like in terms of like is it possible? I think is it possible early on because I was like, all you, all you need to do is hear stories of others doing it and realize that they're not that much if any smarter than you. And if your category is like, if the people in your category are doing it, then it's like it's definitely possible. So then it just becomes like an odds like, you know, what are the odds of it happening?

My Friend Brooke Castillo used to say, I clearly don't believe in my goal 100% yet, because if I believed in it 100%, it would already be true. Which is kind of what you're saying. You don't fully believe it until the check is in the bank. But I like this idea of belief first, and then evidence come to support the belief.

And.

And that gives you the confidence to go find more evidence or make more strategic decisions. Do you think that that is why most entrepreneurs fail to go beyond $5 million, because they don't really believe it's possible? Or is there a different reason why you think Boldify was able to grow so much larger than a lot of our peers who got into this game at the same time?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think it comes down to two things. I think. One is if you're in, like, a category or you're with a product that just doesn't have that potential, no matter what your mindset is, you probably won't get there. But then again, if your mindset's there, you might think, well, I've got a pivot and I've got to change my category or whatever. You know what I mean? But if you don't have that mindset, you get lost in the, how do I get the extra 3% growth? And how do I kind of do this new P PC hack or whatever? And then you kind of just kind of spin your wheels for a long time. It's really hard where there's the big growth comes from, like, bigger swings, like fundamental swings, I think. So, for example, like, last year, we had a big growth surge. It wasn't our kind of, you know, like, secret sauce. There is no kind of secret sauce. But a big lift was we just got all this, you know, tech talk for al day. It was all earned. We just had a bit of seating, and then we just got like a couple hundred million views. Everybody saw us. Like, people on the street in New Zealand was like, you know, what do you do? Bonafire, I saw you on Tick Tock. Like, it was crazy. And, you know, that was. You would have to call that a bit of luck, for sure. So there is an element of luck, but it's also being. Yeah, I think you need to. To really shift mindsets first. Because if it wasn't for that mindset, we wouldn't have done all the things that led up to that. To that, you know, to that luck happening.

So when you were at 2 million, you were doing almost all of your sales on Amazon. What. How big did that channel get before you started pivoting into other channels like TikTok?

Well, it's still our biggest channel, believe it or not. I think we, it's still like 90% we launched into, but like TikTok was the thing that really pushed that up another notch. So I think we were at maybe 20 million without anything else. Just Amazon got it up to like 20. Tick Tock gave us a big branded brand boost and that got us to 30, got us into Walmart and Target this year, which has been great. So I think now we're sort of omnichannel. We've got Walmart and Target. We've got Amazon still cranking. International has been growing too. So thankfully our team, Luciana, on my team actually led like she's like pushed for, you know, international Amazon, which is probably 10 to 15 now, which is like a decent chunk. And then. Yeah, and then now we've kind of got. Tick Tock was sort of the brand lever and now I think, I think DTC is finally going to be like, like a viable channel for us. So we're, you know, that's the holy, holy grail, right? It's like, you know, omnichannels, you know, where it's at really, in this day and age, if you can. So that's the goal.

I, I'm, I'm smiling because it's nice to think about Mike that was here in this room, who flew from New Zealand to Austin, Texas to hear me talk for two days, selling $2 million worth of stuff on Amazon. And a few years later he is 10x and is doing $20 million on Amazon and, and still the biggest channel and only now going into other channels that are coming on really quickly. It's kind of nice to remind ourselves as entrepreneurs that you can go really deep in one channel with one core target market before you get all fancy and go into all of these other directions. So it's just refreshing to think about the fact that you were probably thinking, how do I grow? How do I grow? But you had 10 times the volume still available to you with the, with the channel and the strategy that you were already pursuing.

Yeah, I think in hindsight, like, I was actually joking with my brother yesterday. We were planning these trips to the US for like, you know, like all these conferences and stuff and we're thinking, man, they're fun mindset for sure, amazing. But all these different things we've tried, like, we probably spend like 90% of our money on stuff that isn't the thing that's driving the growth, like I think we still would have gotten to, to where we're at if we hadn't have just spent all this time trying all this stuff. But I think you have to try everything because otherwise you don't know. Right. But the lesson is though, as you say, I think for most brands you can stay on that one channel for a long time. I think some like D2C guys that I follow say I'm like a similar thing. Like if you get like meta ads working to your website like that should be good to like 50 million in theory. Right. You don't have to kind of go too wide in general. So yeah, that's a good insight.

What levers did you pull? I understand TikTok most recently retail recently, but in that transformation of 2 to 20, where you're on one primary channel, what levers did you find most impactful to take you past that 10 million mark and beyond?

There was a couple of things. I think the biggest one was we chose products that were quite easy to compete with at the time that ended up being reasonable markets that we just dominated. So they're not big markets now. It's basically us and the other guys have like a big chunk of the market. So for us it was like we chose a market small enough, just lucky. I mean, I didn't really look at market size when I was starting. It just happened to be like a market where it was small enough that we could dominate using every Amazon lever that we could pull to just beat everybody. Including at the time, review strategies were like a big one. We were always white hat but we would push it as hard as we could. Amazon changes it's at some rules we would adapt but by doing that while it was open got us a head start in the reviews for sure. But it wasn't just that. It was, you know, it was everything. It was the, you know, the titles, the ranking strategies, the, you know, ppc, the product making sure our products good. Just basically just winning on Amazon. Just being like even now like I'm still, you know, I'm an Amazon guy beyond four, I'm a CEO. I'm just like, that's what I. That's kind of what I learned and.

That'S what you nerd out on and that's what works.

So yeah, I think that that's how we did it. Bit of luck in the right category, but also just crushing and working really, really hard to, to just beat everybody else.

Tell me if I'm understanding correctly. It sounds like One of the things that you're glad that you did was go into markets where there was a decent amount of volume, like there was a good market, but you felt like you could win in that space. And then you just kept tweaking the dials until you won in that space. And the dials were headline and copy and images and it was also reviews and good product. It was just tweaking every dial until you were the dominant player. And that sounds, that sounds like the strategy in 30 seconds.

So a couple of small, smaller nuances. One was there was a dominant player, but we became number two and there was an opportunity to improve on price. So the dominant player was like a legacy branded, prestige priced product. So we came in and like won at that kind of, you know, more affordable price price points. So we kind of, we're almost number one, but we're still like number two. But it's basically us and them that have owned that market. So that and was an opportunity. And then the other product, which is our other hero, I think we, that was product innovation. We saw a really great product that wasn't really out yet in the same space. So keep your eye on products and try to be first to like a new product innovation in your space. Because that was a big one too.

Did you have a certain product take off that contributed to the growth or was it more a steady compounding growth of the existing product line?

So one product was steady from day one. That's, that's just been a good, it's amazing curve actually. Just super flat and steady. The other one was our, which is now our hero. I think it accounts for about something like 60% of the volume, which is the fast growing one that I think we launched that in 2020 and that just took off quite fast. So that, that was the one that I said was like a super innovative product. It was kind of new. Nobody was really selling it yet. We kind of innovated on it and then it was just a great product. And I think that we were first with it. So that was how we got that big growth. That was a big part of it.

It just, it just struck me that we've, we've never even addressed what does Boldify sell and what is the product line. Because I know and you obviously know. So tell, just tell me about what that innovative product was because you were, you were in this space for several years before 2020. So tell us about this one product that changed the game.

Yeah, so we're in the hair care space. So we sell products that Essentially for people with thin and fine hair. And our OG product was a hair loss concealing fiber. So it's like a powder, powdery kind of a substance that will cover hair loss. Incredible product. And so, yeah, so. So that was kind of kind of what the brand was built around. And then in 2020 we saw this product available that was like a root touchup powder, but it was in the beta form factor. So a root touch of powders. Like if, if you've got gray roots growing through, if you dye your hair and you get grays, you can kind of touch it up with this powder. It's a temporary sort of a powder. And we had, we did design a version that could also, it was safe to. To go in your scalp. So it was all. Also it was a hair loss concealing powder as well. And I think that was what really kind of took off because people ha is like this kind of weird thing. It's like it's kind of niche still. Even though it's really common, it's like an embarrassing problem. And it's like most people don't even know these concealers exist. And so because our product did root touch up and hair loss, all these people were like finding us through the root touch up search, going, this is co. You know, like it is in a spray I can and also covers hair loss. So I think bringing like, like a new benefit into an existing market was another big thing that worked for us. So we kind of tapped into that kind of, you know, parallel market.

It's interesting because you got to a certain point being Amazon first, looking at where there was opportunity, getting really good at Amazon. But what really broke through for you was something completely new and innovative that the market had not seen before. That feels like a paradox to me. But at some point you had enough cash flow and enough dominance in the marketplace where you could take some strategic risks. And one of those risks happened to pan out is. Is that how you would describe it?

It is. I do think at the time when we all started, there was a big arbitrage opportunity on the platform and that was how a lot of people got their growth. And now that doesn't really exist. So I think, you know, especially now, like, you have to have something innovative and different and exciting most of the time in order to kind of kind of win on Amazon in 2020. You can still kind of get some arbitrage there, but it was getting harder.

And by arbitrage you just mean a mismatch in supply and demand, right?

Yeah, I think so. An Opportunity to kind of leverage a platform basically. So back in the Amazon days like anybody could just put up a product and it would sell and it could just be you know like a me, a me too product and you would just print money for a long time and that's, I'm gone now. So I think, I don't think it's ever been, I honestly don't. I think it's ever been harder to launch on Amazon or on, or on Tick tock. But it's also never been easier to kind of discover new markets and products. I think there's so much more like information now on like what like people want like you can go on, go on tech talk and see like micro communities what people are talking about. Yeah, I think you have to innovate for sure on the product front that's absolutely key.

I think today it is harder to sell products than it's ever been but it is easier to build a seven figure brand than it has ever been. The difference in my mind is you start with a person and you build a small audience and you bring those buyers to the platform and that is the, it's, it's easier to build a seven figure business building a brand than it's ever been. Still to this day, despite 10 years of me trying to convince the marketplace otherwise, people still think product and platform first. But that, that game is tired. It's been tired for years. But if you go build a small audience of people who want to buy your stuff, it's best time ever to build a seven figure business.

Preaching this message back in 2016 I think and like it's like never been more true today and you kind of, I think he must have been one of the first because when you, you were preaching it it was true but it wasn't the only way. It was like right, need to undo that. But now it's like you really need.

To, you have to.

And you're right about like it's definitely never been easier. It's, it's actually interesting. I think it's probably never been harder to build you know a nine figure brand. I think it's especially at the moment with the, you know, the economy and the macro conditions. It's like, it's brutal. But to build a seven figure man, so many opportunities just there's probably a thousand different ways to do it and just have like heaps of fun like. Yeah, that's an interesting kind of conversation. I haven't really looked into that in a while but I think that that could be something fun to explore after I end up if and when I ever, you know, sell on Boldify. I love that, that I'm kind of a niche. That's cool.

Tara. Isaac Opala from Four Sigmatic said the same thing where it, it feels harder than at least in the last 10 years to build a nine figure business, but it is easier than ever to build a seven figure business. So let's at least get that one out of the way and then you can decide if you want to have an eight or a nine figure business and decide if you want to flip this thing for a few million bucks or if you want to have an eight figure exit. I'm curious from your perspective, what assumptions or beliefs did you have to let go of at 2 million that were no longer serving you, but that once you let them go allowed you to grow to 10 million and beyond?

There's like so many and I think the biggest advice I would ever give myself even is the whole journey is, is that like somebody said it recently this, I think his name's Joe Hudson. He's like a coach that's kind of popped up recently. He was saying like you are business as a reflection of you. Like it really is like, like as, as the leader. Like it's literally it's a mirror. And I didn't really get that for a long time, but now I'm realizing it. Like everything that's happening in the, in the company is just a reflection of my mindset because I have the power to change everything in the company, including the way people show up to work, how they're feeling, how creative they are being, how creative I'm being, how, which emails I answer and don't answer. Like it's just everything. So I think in terms of like any kind of one or two beliefs, it's been just a thousand small kind of personal growth things, you know, because every challenge you, you have in business to overcome, it is most of the time you have to kind of grow as a person to work out how to overcome it.

What do you mean by this idea that your business is a mirror? What is being reflected back to you that you are changing or addressing that.

Affects the company as the boss, you have the power to basically create and even change the culture in your company. You have the power to choose which products you sell. You have the power to basically do anything. It's completely your, you don't have to get buy in from like anybody. So every choice you have made has resulted in this company basically. Right. Obviously the team built it and they make choices too. But you, it's, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, it's like ultimately you. So I can choose to completely change the culture in the company. I can start to have. I'm just gonna, you know, treat a recent one now like. And I'm thinking about different things we can do in the office to really change the vibe and the energy there to, to get people more creative and engaged and get, like, people aligned, to really, really want to grow and understand the vision better. I've got to be better at creating that vision and share it with them. You know, that's my job. And I haven't done a great, great job of that in the past. And the reason why I haven't done that is because I need to grow to do that. I've got other crap in my head that's kind of keeping me down. I'm like, you know, stressed about things and I haven't had. Had the time for the vision. And so the whole thing is like, well, I need to step up and get over the challenges and try to work out my emotions and getting, get more energy and get fitter, to kind of get in a good, you know, head space and create the vision, get everyone excited, bring the opportunities to us. And I don't know, it's a little bit rambly what I'm saying, but I, I'm trying to.

I'm eating up your words, Mike, because what you're basically saying that it all trickles down from you. And if you don't believe it, then your beliefs are the constraint. And if you don't live it, then you're the example from the top down. And how do you expect anyone to get in alignment with your vision if you are not in alignment with your vision? I feel that particularly convicting of me right now, where I've had a lot of we'll say, reflections in the mirror lately in my family at work that have. Have made me pause and go, like, how am I creating this situation? How am I creating this interaction? If, if I'm at. Cause if I'm going to take ownership for my life, then I have to see myself as at fault for these things that I do not like. And that is way harder than blaming the economy or the president or tariffs or Amazon or your wife or that you're stressed. It's so much easier to deflect all of the reflections being made back to you. And what I'm hearing you say is that when something isn't going well, you use that as a reason to explore. How can I be different so that the company can be different?

Yeah, I think that's probably. That's the whole game. That's one way of describing the whole game. And I think it's super easy to see, like, it's real easy to see, like, the, you know, the victim that, you know, that isn't doing. Doing well in life. Right. It's like, it's super easy to, like, see in other people, someone who, you know, who's always complaining about everybody else. They're not having a good time. It's. It's clear. But when it's you, it's like you're. You're in there. You can't see from outside in it. And, like, it is hard, but business forces you to. That's why business isn't so cool. Like, you would never do this if you didn't have a business. Well, it's possible, of course, but business is, like, a great tool to force you to do it day in and day out, because you have to do it. Otherwise it's going to suck. You're going to. It's just going to suck.

So, Mike, who did you need to become in order to go from a $2 million business to a $40 million business?

I think I needed to definitely become a better person. It's a hard question. I don't think I have a cool answer for you because it's just. It's. It's been. I'm. I'm a completely different person now. I just don't know how to sum that up in a. In, like, one word. Like, the growth I've had in the last 10 years and. Insane. Right. Like, it'd be so fun to like, meet myself, like, a decade ago and actually see. See how far it comes. It's happened so slowly and definitely what I. What. What I can say is I'm. I'm a much happier person. Feel way more fulfilled. Just. I'm. I'm just a different person all around.

Did your leadership style have to change?

Yeah, I'm. And I'm still working on that. I've, like, I've got this belief now that I'm, like, not a great leader. And it's because I've always been like, you know, I'm an operator. I'm. I sort of, like, figured out Amazon. I like. I like being. Being them in the weeds. And it's like. I mean, I'm also an introvert, so I was like, I'm not typically a great leader. I'm Finding now actually the most, it's most relevant now that we've grown from, you know, this year, you know, we're in reptile. The last, I think going from 20 to sort of we'll do 40 this year. This is where, where it's really starting to. I have to step up now and really try to do better because our team is bigger now. There's way more stuff going on. I've got to improve. And so this has been great. It's been another huge kind of forcing function to step up as a leader.

Is it fair to say that you had to become a believer? You've used that word quite a bit in this conversation. And I've experienced that at every chapter of growth there's a new level of belief that is required. And I'm curious if you had to practice believing, believing that you can lead, believing that you can hit 1 million, then 10 million, then nine figures. Is that one of your skill sets?

That's always been my biggest skill set, hands down. I'm not sure why that might be different to other people. Someone mentioned, I don't, I don't really know if this is true, but somebody said like, what's the difference between like an entrepreneur and like a non, you know, entrepreneur? And then somebody said like trauma basically. And, and I think there's like truth to that. I think if you have like a bunch of trauma, it kind of somehow it kind of maybe opens up the bigger capacity to kind of believe and like the opposite direction from like whatever that trauma is. So like maybe it like gives you more like belief headroom. I don't know, who knows? But I always kind of, you know, wonder, wonder about that. But I've always had like crazy belief. Not like the secret so much as, you know, the, the book, the secret, but the, some of the principles behind that. I've always felt a super true and I've kind of seen them to be true. And so belief and vision, intent is absolutely my superpower. It's. I, I really believe that without that I wouldn't have seen the, the, the opportunities that I've seen. And so that was huge. But the other thing that, that I've really done, I've never really been short on belief. I think what I've really done the last year is the growth has come from handing all these roadblocks and finding the self awareness to get through them. So like, you know, why isn't this working? It isn't a case of like a belief to me. It's more of a case of like self awareness and really getting more aware of like what am I doing? What am I saying? What am I doing that is contributing to this, to this challenge, this roadblock. So that's been a big one for sure.

Mike, at some point I believe you decided to take on capitals and capital and advisors and I was hoping that you could walk me through that.

No, that actually never ended up panning out. So we, we were looking to do that and great guys, but we decided it just, we couldn't quite get the terms right in time. This was like there, there was a window of, of an opportunity. We were just about to, to head into retail and we had this great opportunity, been like, okay, let's do it. And then, you know, I just feel like in order for us to do a deal, you really need a bit more time. And so that didn't actually work out.

Oh well then that's fascinating. So that makes me ask the question, does that mean you're fully bootstrapped?

Yes.

Bootstrapped all the way to $40 million?

Yep.

Hot damn, my friend. Nice fricking work. I had a different version of the story in my head and now I'm just even more stoked for you. That is fantastic. Yeah, you did use some strategic debt or from family and friends at times. Tell me how you financed the growth that didn't just come from the profits. What levers did you use to help finance that?

Yeah, so the whole company. I started with a 50,000 bank overdraft just based on my job that I had. They gave me 50k NZ, which is like 30k US and that was enough to start the company again. These days it depends on what you're doing, but it's probably a little bit more these days. But 30k and then everything was bootstrapped the whole way. The biggest kind of. We were lucky. Back in the day, Amazon lending was a thing. It was harder for us as in non US resident company. We, we didn't get access to a lot of funding. But Amazon, once we started our US based C corp, they, they would fund us. So we got, you know, I think it was 100,000, then 200, then 400, then a million. So that was basically it. It was an Amazon funding and just like keeping it super lean really. Amazon was a profitable channel. So we're lucky really. I don't think you could do that in like D2C or something back in the day. It's just like too expensive. Margins are too crazy thin. So yeah, so we're at, we'll be at 40 now, good margins, bootstrapped. And so, yeah, so now I always wonder, I've always wondered, could we get all the way to the nine figure exit as a bootstrapped brand? And I'm still thinking about it. We'll see. It's like pros and cons doing it either way, I think. I think we'll see.

Where do you go for advice now that you have surpassed most of your peers?

Advice is really hard. There's a couple of places. What has been really good is speaking to a ton of investment banks because they're always keen to chat, right as a potential sale for them. They're like, okay, you know, these, these, them guys fit the own profile. Maybe they're going to have a, a good exit in a year or two or three. So they've been giving a lot of good advice in the market in terms of exit strategy. A couple of bigger private equity firms reached out and it's been cool, like speaking with them as well. So that's been really, really, really helpful in terms of exit planning advice and like, and like business advice. And in terms of operating advice, I don't think there is any operating advice, like, because every brand is so different. I would almost say every. And this is from great guys, like, I want to mention them, but, but if you go to sites like a mentor pass, there's like some crazy amazing people on there listening to podcasts of nine figure operators and that. And it's like, yeah, all your advice worked for you and your business and other businesses, but every business is so different. You've kind of just. I've really come full circle and I'm starting to just follow my gut now on almost everything. And I know that not to sidetrack too much, but on the first Capcom or the second one, there was the Poo Pourri founder, what was her name?

Susie Batiz.

We're at that one. And she was like, her whole talk was on like, I am real cool, like listening to your intuition and stuff. And I remember some of the people were like, this is cool. But like, you know what the tactics, you know, what are the hacks. Give me the, the advice. And I can tell you right now, like 10 years later, that was the best advice in the whole damn show. Because, yeah, because it's, you know, better than anybody else. You're specific set of circumstances, what worked, what hasn't. And so I, I think you're the best person to kind of make that final, final call on what to kind of do. So yeah, that was a Huge one.

That's a big shift from the Mike I met a few years ago.

It is, it is a big shift. That's, that's probably my biggest shift actually. Always been like, I'm just this dude. Everyone else is better than me because they have a blog or they're kind of tweeting on Twitter and I don't do that. So I'm not as good as them. And I just take all their advice all the time and apply it like a crazy kind of dog. Just looking at this one, I want to try that, I want to try that. And I'm taking all this advice and it's like at the end of the day, most of it hasn't worked for my business and half the time, especially now, the people giving the advice haven't achieved what I've achieved. So it's like I'm really starting to believe in myself more. I still need to work on that. But like self unbelief is super important and that's what is my biggest kind of opportunity for sure. Because if I'm confident and if I believe myself and everything be becomes clear and if I lose belief, I start to get foggy headed and I get unsure and then I listen to his advice and I listen to her advice and you get this kind of mishmash of kind of yeah, strategy and, and it's just horrible. And the best leaders like love him, hate him. Elon's a great example. He's like, he just goes, he's just super self. But belief decides, does it executes, creates chaos, goes again and he just keeps on going. And he doesn't really doubt himself a lot. I imagine ton of examples that aren't as con, you know, like controversial. But I think that's the key. Confidence and belief in yourself is. I should really write that down as my, my own big one. I need to kind of work on that.

You've said over and over that that's the whole game. That's the whole game that's going on here. You mentioned to me that you're getting advice from investment banks and private equity groups. They're going to give you a different perspective than somebody who tells you what image test to run on your Amazon listing completely different spheres of influence. So what type of advice are you getting that you pay attention to from the private equity groups in the investment banks?

That is advice to do with exit strategy to do with what is a good financial profile look like? What should we be aiming for? How does our brand fit in the market? So it's like branded advice. So what advice on how to improve what your brand is and who might want to buy it and why, which is a big one now with the strategics is like the financial profile isn't as important. They really want something that basically really owns its own, really owns its own place, place in the market. So it's not just like another collagen brand or another whatever brand. It's like, no, that's, that's a super unique, super different. Has a cult following and it's very, very clear on the, their, their identity. And born from that, I think, you know, we, we're going to launch this in years, years time. But the new version of Boldify does like all that and then some. So that's just been an incredible kind of shift for us. Like I've never been more bullish on the brand. What we've got coming next year I think is it's something really, really big and it's got the potential to be really, really big. So we should definitely follow up on that one. But that was born from this advice from, from, from these bankers. They're like, man, the, you know, Laurie, they're like, bonafide's good. And I, but it's, I, I think, you know, you can improve your story. Like, you know, what's your story really. And boy have have we. I've got one now and it's like that was that, that was just super helpful having that outsider kind of help with that.

So it sounds like the, the outside opinions that you're listening to now are, are more about how do you build enterprise value by casting an even bigger net, even bigger vision, a bigger story. It's not about tactics or what your EBITDA needs to be. It's about how can you change the conversation of the marketplace so that you're getting more attention. That's what I'm hearing. Is that accurate?

Yeah. Somebody's got to go, what is Boldify? Why are they different? Why are they better? Why you should buy them. And it's got to be unique, simple, easy to get and it's got to have bars and a reason for being. And I think if you can find that, which I'm hoping we have, then everything's going to be easier. Like it's not even just I'm doing that so like l' Oreal buys us one day. I'm doing that because our tick tock strategy is just going to crush with this new storytelling. Like, like now all the storytelling is easier. We've got a clear Enemy. We've got a clear massive differentiation. We've got a clear target market pain point. All that stuff is just so much clearer. So I think that's going to be a huge lever for us. I'm really, really excited about, about that. So now like all the tactics are going to be easier.

How did you unlock that story and do you wish that you had gone back and do on that earlier?

Oh, yeah, I think just it's something that, that was kind of always there. I think the unlock has just come from. I don't know why it's taken so, so long, to be honest. I think it's just kind of like maybe it's. I'm come now because the, the time is right. Like it was kind of like, yeah, it's just come now because the time is right. I don't have any advice on how to unlock it apart from I don't think we probably had that clear question before. And need for was born from like no necessity. I didn't really believe it was necessary. I was like, well, I still like crushing on Amazon. So, you know, and it's hard to kind of do, do the story stuff. I tried it. It's kind of all right. It's. It's really hard now. I'm like, no, this is like life or death. We need to do this to get this exit. And that was. That really, really, really, really forced us to kind of dive deep and be really honest about our products and our story and who we're serving and make a choice and go, look, we've got to choose one or the other. Otherwise the brand is going to be like a little bit of this, it's a little bit of that. No, we need to, you know, like double down and make some confident choices. That's what, what we did.

Mike, if you could go back and meet the guy who was at $2 million, is there anything that you would tell him to change, avoid or go all in on besides buy Bitcoin and Facebook stock? What would you tell only right. What would you tell that guy to go all in on within the context of the company that you're building?

Yeah, that's a great question. It's easy in hindsight because I wouldn't have known then what I know now. I would have said go all in on what was working. Never lose track of what what was working. Any other experiments you are doing, do less. Less is more. I just wasted so much time trying everything else but Amazon. Right. Because you know, it was working. I would just say just triple down on, on like what's already working and be lean and don't think you've got to follow the advice of the D to C guys or the people raising VC money and having these big teams and larger headcount. Just stay lean, focus on what drives revenue and then worry about all the other stuff later when you get bigger. I, I think now is a great, A great time for us to really be thinking about some of the things where I'm you know like, you know like omnichannel and things like that but. And I'm 2 million just triple down on what's working and just keep it simple as well. That's the other thing that I'm always trying to do do for myself. Always try to simplify. Shit's way too complicated and doesn't have have to be. You should be able to write out everything on like one page across the whole company.

Could you share more about what you mean by that?

The problem with today is there's never been more in information ever. If, if you go on Twitter or anywhere. Podcast is just an overload and you can just get overwhelmed with everything. AI agents, N8N like it's just insane, right? And, and if you can get lost in that really fast and it's not me, it's our team members, you know, you can just get lost. And the way forward is to have a super clear vision, a super clear direction, super clear objectives and then super clear KPIs to kind of hit those objectives. And the best things you do, it's when you, you move quickly. And if you are not keeping everything simple from your written communication to. To your verbal communication which I've got a also got to work on concise clear then you're just going to be slower and you're also going to spend more money and waste more money because you're trying too much stuff. You had to be a death by at a thousand cuts.

I'm just having this thought as you're saying this Mike, which is you have become a strong believer in your own success. And it's I think a sign of someone who believes in what they're doing is someone who is relentlessly focused. Because it's only been when I've been scared that I've deviated from the path and added this thing and tried this and experimented with this and kept my eye off the ball of what is working. If I really believe in that thing, then I'm all in on that thing. But when I doubt, I get distracted. And so you're Giving the advice of going all in on what's working. And I'm almost wondering if the simplicity or the complication of a business is a reflection of how much you believe in what you are doing. And I'm just playing with that thought as you're sharing all of this.

That's my whole life.

What do you mean, that's your whole life?

Well, that's my whole problem. If you asked any about, you know, employees, you know, like, what's our biggest issue? It's like, Mike's pivoting all the time. He's always changing all the time, and it's super frustrating for them. And Maya, my, you know, argument is, well, we've tried this. It doesn't work. We've got to try this. And I think if I had to believed in myself more, deep down, I would have known what the core of what really was working is and why, and we would have been able to create a plan that probably would have worked faster than trying all these other things because I didn't believe myself enough. I took the advice of everybody else, and I didn't just use my instincts and go, well, actually, with our product and our circumstances, it makes more sense to do this if I'm really listening to myself. And if you just look at those fundamentals, what is the truth of it? You would just get there so much faster, pivot less, and get less distracted. So, yeah, I mean, again, I need to write down belief in myself on my computer keyboard or something.

It sounds like the one thing that, like, obviously hindsight's 20 20, but if you could go back in time, you would have pursued fewer things and you would have just doubled down.

Especially if I was honest as well. Like, that sometime comes back to. It's like listening to your gut again. It's like your brain will. Example, right? Random example. Somebody says that you should do. Well, you know, this is a great one for now. Somebody says you should do a, you know, like a AI bot that turns out Tik Tok. You know, fake on Tik Tok AI generated farms and just have like a thousand Tik Tok influencers doing. Doing unviral, right? Like, my greedy self in my brain really wants to undo that. And, and. And it might actually do that. But then my heart, right. If I listen to that, it's like, will this work for our product? That you've got a show, the product in action. Will it work for us? And deep down, if I ask myself that, it's like, no, it's. It actually probably won't won't work if, if you do that, you might get a few quick wins, but it won't be a long term sustainable thing. So, like, don't. Don't do it. And I think, yeah, that I'm. Awareness, you could call it intuition, listening to your heart, really asking yourself deeply, are you doing this? Is this the right thing to do? And I think if you really sit with that, the answer's in there and that's a way to kind of move forward.

So this is a far different mic than who was here in this room a few years ago. And it is evidence of who you've had to become in order to have an eight and someday nine figure brand. Mike, is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have?

I always feel with these conversations, it does always get back to the mindset stuff. And I always worry that people listening are like, you know, they. They always want the other stuff. But no, I think we've covered enough. I think the kind of core fundamental things are there. I'd love to follow up again and just see how that, you know, this all evolves. I will think of like ten things later on. I'm not that good on the spot, so I think we're good.

Let's do that. Next time you're in Austin, we'll do a part two. But here's what I want. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. What are you trying to believe right now that you don't yet believe that we'll check in on the next time we talk.

Trying to believe I'm a great leader that can overcome my limiting beliefs in order to improve the company and give the company what it needs. Basically, I believe I'm a great leader that can do. Do this, this company justice now at the level it is and. And might crush it even.

It's kind of nice to hear that someone who has accomplished so much, still has had trash and still has beliefs that he wants to change and still has doubts about himself and his performance. I like that we can normalize that because I remember early on in my journey, I thought I was the only one with head trash. And I had to act as if and put on a mask and do this imposter thing, fake it till you make it. And now I realize everybody has head trash. So your trash is just as gross as my trash. Your doubts are just as dark as my doubts. So we've all got them. And if we've all got them, they can't all be true. So now I can take myself less seriously and I don't have to put on such a mask anymore because the person that I'm trying to impress has had trash too. So, so I, I. It is, it is nice to be reminded that somebody who was doing 2 million here in this room just before 2020, now doing 40, still has head trash and doubts about his own performance. Thank you for being honest about that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think I would encourage it too, with more people. The only time that I think you probably shouldn't do that, I feel like if, if you're like a public company CEO on, you know, like an earnings call. Hey, guys, I'm just feeling really down today. Like, I mean, even if you've got, you know, like, I'm investors and you're just honest about yourself and you're working on yourself, I mean, I don't know it. Why not? I mean, I don't know. I think honesty is good. I think being, being untruth, truthful is good. And I'm thinking people appreciate it too.

So when you are able to be honest about that head trash, the head trash loses its power. The whole reason why it drives our behavior is because it's screaming in the back of our mind. Then once it's out, you can kind of deal with it. Like, nothing can control us. Once the truth is on the table, it's when it's sitting in the back just screaming noise and distracting you that it can cause a problem. So getting it out minimizes its power. And then you can move on.

And talking about it, even this some conversation now, like, this is, you know, more of a public one, but I don't think I'd had that huge insight that my belief that I'm not a great leader was actually causing so many of our issues and like, in direct ways. And so just by having this some conversation, I feel like this is just going to be like a big unlock, which is great. It's going to help the company. Already I'm thinking about how it's going to change things. So there you go. Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

Mike, I'm so proud of you, man. I'm so happy for you. Congratulations on all your success. You've earned every ounce of it. And it is nice to be on the other side of the table where I think for a time I inspired you and now you inspire me. So. What a beautiful. What a beautiful relationship. I'm so happy for you, my friend.

Yeah, thanks so much, dude. Well, I couldn't have done it. I mean, I always say this. I wouldn't have gotten started if it wasn't for you. So you were always my kind of treat you as like, my kind of early, sort of angel investor type character. So you were.

I sadly didn't get any equity in that one. Mike, it's great to see you. Thanks for being here, my friend.

Well, good man. Talk soon.