My First Product Hit - What Do I Do Now? #BrandBuilderPodcast

When you realize you don't have to have any of the answers. Your only job is to be a guide for the customer, to express something about themselves. It gets a lot easier for you to make these decisions.

Yes. I said, what are you doing next? What's your next, you know, oh, shit moment? Right? What's your next thing that you're trying to take care of? Welcome to the Brand Builder podcast presented by capitalism dot com. I'm Max Kerwick and I advise physical product brands to find their story.

I'm Ryan Daniel Moran and I invest in physical products brands. A physical products brand is arguably the most predictable path to a seven figure business. And we advise them, build them, buy them and sell them.

The show goes behind them, tracks their success, and hands you the keys to what's working.

Let's dive in. Welcome to the Brand Builder podcast. I'm Ryan Daniel Moran.

And I'm Max Kerwick.

And Max, today we're going to talk about when your first product hits and you want to go bigger, what the heck you do about this? And this came in the form of some. Well, we met a lot of people at the Capitalism conference a couple of months ago, which was great. Thank you to all of you who came to Texas to hang out with max, myself and AJ Vaynerchuk and Stephanie McMahon and Michael Dubin and a host of other brand builders and entrepreneurs. That was really fun.

Yeah, it was. It was a blast.

Yeah. Max, say something nice about my conference?

You know, I have to say I was saying all sorts of nice stuff earlier, talking about it, but yeah, I mean, I think that my favorite part is the people, not just the people on stage with the people who are there. I mean, I had some of the best conversations that I've had all year there.

I feel very proud of the people who get on a plane or get in their car and come to hang out with us for three days. And the results speak for themselves. But it's just fun. I don't know what it is about who is in that room, but it's just people with a giving mentality. It's an ego free room, even though there's lots of people who are crushing it. Nobody uses the phrase crushing it.

Yeah. Thank God.

Yeah. So thank you to all of you who came to the Capitalism conference. And there was one conversation that you brought up, Max, that we thought would make for an interesting conversation here, and it was about, you have a product that does well, and a lot of times it's not because of anything within your control. It's because the product hit or you timed it well, or you got picked up by a nice audience. And the natural progression is, well, how big are we gonna take this? What's the company we're actually building? What do we do now? So, Max, what do we do now?

Well, I mean, you know, I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but I think you have to go to your audience, right? And you have to understand the people that are buying this, this product for you, this product. And I think this is a really common scenario, right, for, for entrepreneurs that sell physical products, right? You try a couple products and then eventually one of them hits and it becomes kind of your hero product, right. It's 90 plus percent of your business and you're moving tons of volume. And for a little while, it's just a struggle to keep up supply chain for that one product to make sure that it stays in stock, to make sure that you can continue to serve.

So before you go on, example of this Onnit, right? Aubry's a buddy of mine. I'm now an investor in Onnit, so I own like 0.000 infinite 1% of onit. But he tells the story of he had several different products that did not work out. One of them was a party recovery supplement or something.

It was like a hangover recovery.

Right. And then alpha brain hit. He knows Joe Rogan, if you boil it down to that, he had a nootropic that Joe Rogan liked. Joe Rogan talked about it. They can't keep stock. What the heck do we do now? Now they're the exception of going real big.

Yep.

When you have one product that hits, most people have this product hit. And just like you're describing, trying to keep stock and then it's a matter of what, where, where do we go from here? So sorry to interrupt you, but that was a really good example.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know, let's take a like a hypothetical example here, right? You've got someone that sells, let's say, a product that helps you sleep. You've got a weighted eye mask, or you've got a melatonin, you know, sleep supplement or something like that. And you're selling a couple other supplements and the sleep one is the one that hits, Right. All of a sudden you have a decision to make, Right. Are the people that are your buyers, are they supplement buyers and they're buying because you're a supplement and they really like the supplements you sell, or are they people that are really struggling with Their sleep, Right. And they know that sleep is the key, is the path to them achieving the things that they want. And they've got big goals, and that's why they're trying to optimize their sleep. Right? And then you pivot from that to becoming a sleep company. Right. And so I think it's deciding, okay, what is the path that we want to take? Do we want to be just a sleep supplement company? Right. That's a pretty narrow niche. Right. There's not a whole lot of room to play there. Right. Do we want to be a supplement company that's super broad to the point where you can fit almost anything in it and there's not going to be a whole lot of overlap in your audience, Right. Or do we want to be a sleep optimization company? Right. And then all of a sudden, there's all these other things that open up to you. And so that's kind of where my head goes is, what is. Why is that audience buying from you? What is the story that they're. I literally sound like a broken record here. What is the story they're trying to tell about their life? Right. But it probably isn't, oh, okay. That I just want to take supplements.

Right.

I'm a supplement taker. That's probably not the story that they're telling. Right. The story is like, I want to sleep better. Right. I have this deep, abiding need to achieve my goals, to be the best mom, to be, like the most successful entrepreneur, to be an athlete. Right. And to achieve these goals and weights and speed and all that kind of stuff. And I know that sleep is the critical path to. To me achieving those things. Right. And so all of a sudden, again, that opens up so much for you to do.

Yeah. So what you just said that really connected with me was, in that sense, you've got to find out why that person values sleep.

Yes.

We assume we know the answer.

Yes.

As entrepreneurs, it's so often that we just assume things about our products and our people, and so we end up guessing and succeeding in spite of ourselves or failing because we're caught up on our own story rather than what the customer wants. So something as nuanced as finding out why people are prioritizing sleep changes everything about where you go next as a company. If you're selling melatonin and it's just another melatonin lozenge or pill or whatever.

You are now firing at every different angle, Right? But.

If you are selling the sleep supplement for people who work during the night, that's a completely different market. Or if it's to pregnant moms or if it's to entrepreneurs who burn the midnight oil and are working at screens all night long. If you know that that completely changes how you approach your next product launches.

Exactly.

And just to continue the point from earlier on, it, you know, it was a Alpha Brain was the first product that really hit. But it wasn't about being a nootropic company that made them interesting. It was Joe Rogan. That audience thinks they're on the cutting edge.

Yep.

They think they're optimizing every aspect of their life. And Aubrey is one of those people too. And so, you know, the next product is. I don't know what number two was, but they end up doing a bunch in the keto space. They do kettlebells with gorillas on it.

Right.

That doesn't make sense. You do not go from mental performance to kettlebells with gorillas on them or maces or all kinds of things, but when you know who the person is, that changes everything.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I want to use another example from capcon, right? We talked to a couple that makes a game, right? It's a game that you use, like a board game. It's. It's like a game that you use at like wedding related parties, like bridal showers or something like that. And this game really took off. And it's a game that they made themselves and you know, they had some success selling it. And the nuance, again, going back to Ryan's point about the nuance of the person, if you just think of that as I'm selling games, right, Then you are very, you're, you're limited to just selling other games, right? You're like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be the game company. We'll come up with fun games that people play, right? And that's fine. That's not to say there's anything wrong with being a game company, right. But there's also an opportunity there to tap into the emotional thing, which is, let's say you're doing a bridal shower. How often do you throw a bridal shower? Right?

Hopefully once.

Hopefully once, yeah. And even if you're, you know, if you're everybody's best friend and you're everyone's maid of honor, right? Maybe you have to do three of those, right? In your entire life, you have to organize three bridal showers, right? So that is a harrowing experience, right? Getting asked to organize this party that's about somebody else with A bunch of people you probably don't know.

Max, I just want you to know that this is today's reason why I'm glad I'm a dude.

Exactly. Yeah. For the dude version of this is let's get a keg and hand up and hang out in the backyard. Right. But anyways, there's an opportunity for this company to not just sell them a game, but to sell them an experience and to sell them confidence that they can pull this off, this thing that I've never done and that I'll probably never have to do again with women that I don't know and I'm only going to see twice. Right. Once at the shower, once at the wedding. And instead it's like, okay, we're empowering you to like, we've got the entertainment taken care of, We've got the structure taken care of. You just need to get people there and figure out the venue. Right. All of a sudden that problem seems way less stressful. And that emotional connection there versus I just sold you a game. Right. That's where the real opportunity for the brand lies.

And every person who now goes to plan that party is referring all their other friends.

Exactly. Oh my God. Thank God. Yeah. It was so stressful. But like, oh, just buy from them and like they take care of it.

Right? Yeah. So that word of mouth marketing happens real fast. I actually would take this from a different angle. So I'm thinking about my sister in law as the avatar for this. She is. And what? Her name's Ellen. And what strikes me about Ellen is she's a person everyone relies on. I have no idea how she gets everything done. Right. She is, she's an rn, she has two kids, she's married. They have a big house they take care of. She plans all the parties, she cooks all the meals. I have no idea how she handles it all. And that says something about Ellen. Like, Ellen is the one who's on top of it. Ellen is the one that people count on. Ellen is the go to person in her social circle. She's the. She is the maid of honor a few times.

Right.

So she is. She's like for better or worse, the go to person in her friend circle. And so there's a story behind that person too. When they go to plan the wedding shower or the bridal shower, that's one set of products for Ellen.

Yeah.

And Ellen also needs time to herself. And she's got 10 minutes of it.

Yep.

And there's probably a set of products specifically for that. And she's the hero to her kids. And their kids will eventually graduate from elementary school and there's a set of products for that. So the market is the person who's the hero in their friend group, right. All the other heroes in the friend group know each other or when they meet each other, they connect and all their product recommendations become your product recommendations.

Exactly. And you know, there's. I love that you brought it back around to that, right? Because the counterpoint to that is like, oh, okay, well, a bridal shower is probably a terrible market, right? Because you only sell a person one time, right? And so that is a problem that you have to wrestle with. But that idea of like this person, the story that their friends tell about them and that they tell about themselves is that they're the reliable person, right? They're the person who had this responsibility put on them. So you have the most highly emotional entry point into a relationship with them, right? This feeling of, oh, shit, I've got to plan this party and I'm the reliable one, right? If you can nail that, if you can give them an experience of like, oh my God, that was so much easier than I thought it was going to be. Everyone loved it. I was not just the reliable person, I was the hero of the party because I threw this kick ass party that everyone loved, right? Then all of a sudden you've got that person for life, right? If you can sell them other things that solve other problems, you know, and that you're credible in providing, whether that's with their family or in their job or whatever, or just for the me time that they're looking for, right? You already have that person hooked because you were able to solve a problem for them in a highly emotional time period.

So let's say you, you nailed all of this, right? You knew exactly who the person was. How would you go about getting your solutions to that person? Because it seems a very highly nuanced, airy idea of like the, the Ellens of the world, the heroes in their friend group.

How.

How would you go about communicating your products and services to get more Ellen's as customers?

Yeah. Okay, so full disclosure, we're going into like me pulling stuff out of my ass phase, but this is a great question, right? So I mean, I think the idea is you catch them at the time when they're at their greatest need, right? When they've been asked to throw the shower and they have no experience whatever. Probably the first thing they do is like, how do I, they Google something like, how do I throw a bridal shower or whatever. If you're able to hit them in that search, right? Whether through PPC ads or, you know, being highly ranked organic search or running Facebook ads to people who are, you know, searching for stuff on bridal showers and, and things like that and get them in the door with the first, you know, like, hey, we know that this is stressful, right? Hey, hey, stressed out, gotta plan your first bridal shower. Like, and then, you know, you hit them with the game, you hit them with and then couple that with, you know, content with a run a show for the day with like, here's a checklist for all the things that you need to be doing a month in advance or something like that. Just making their life easier in general and kind of forming that initial relationship and then once it, you know, ends like following up with them, like, hey, how'd it go? Like getting, you know, getting a picture from them, getting content and then saying, hey, you know, you really killed it first, you know, in a situation that was totally not about you, right. You deserve a little break, right? Bingo. And then bam. Hit them with, you know, bath bombs or hit them with, you know, something that's, you know, like you deserve a little me time or something like that. And then from there you, that shifts their thinking about you from just being the, you know, the bridal shower company to all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is the company for me, right? This company understands me.

I have nothing to add.

Well, great.

That's a good endorsement.

Yeah. So. So I thought you were going to have a lot harder time with that one. Max. I'm not going to lie because that's like with something that's a one time event, my brain immediately goes to content. Just like content planning around that one specific event. But it's real hard to do a podcast about wedding planning or bridal. I don't even know.

As someone who's currently planning a wedding, I don't think it would be that hard to do a podcast about wedding planning every day. So much stuff to.

Okay, well, I don't know. I've never been married, so.

I think it would be really hard to have unless it was a one time podcast series. Most people, once they're married, they're not thinking about wedding.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yes. Yeah, that is a fair clarification.

So what I like about what you suggested, it is like you have the one time checklist. You have these pillar pieces of content that you can advertise and send pay per click traffic to in order to amplify it to the right people. And now you've got that. You've got them in your ecosystem. And this is where this whole machine gets really, really interesting. And it's so often we guess about what our customers want. My brain naturally goes after they've planned the party, you ask them, yeah, what do you want? Like, what are you doing next hero in the story? What are you up to? What is next in your story? Because it's my job to make it easier for you to go be that hero.

Yep.

And that's how you, that's how you go from a game company to a company that is whoever you want to be, as long as it is customer centric versus you. Just making things up.

Hey gang.

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So here's an interesting example. Cards against humanity.

Ah yes. Okay.

So why did you just grunt when.

I said because I love cards against humanity. They did such a Great job.

Like, you're, you're, you're fired up. You're a super fan about Cards Against Humanity.

Yeah. My favorite party game that I've played in, you know, the past 10 years.

So I just, I just pulled that one out of the air. What other products does Cards Against Humanity.

Sell expansion packs for Cards Against Humanity.

Now, they've, they've done some weird marketing ploys in the past, right?

Yes.

There was like something with like an empty box.

Yes. I. And I honestly, I don't recall what these were off the top.

You're ruining my ex.

I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Go ahead. I shouldn't have said anything.

So. So Cards Against Humanity did. I believe they did a Christmas special of an empty box a few years ago and it. And it did. And it was like, the box has nothing in it. Like the ad campaign said, like, there's nothing in the box. And it crushed. Yeah, it did. It did. Millions of dollars worth of an empty box. Now, there's only one reason why that works. It's because you like Cards Against Humanity. Because you appreciate kind of the snarkiness that is this game. So it's going to attract people who appreciate that sense of humor. It does not attract my mom.

Yeah.

My mom does not play cards against humanity.

Right.

She plays Taboo from 1989. Still, every family get together.

So what?

When they roll out a snarky Christmas gift that is literally air in a box, all the people are like, they got me again.

Yeah, exactly. I've come to buy 10 bucks for that. Yeah, I would love to pay 10.

Bucks for that well designed box. And nothing. And they do millions of dollars worth of. Not a game. It's just the next product. Which is the next opportunity for the customer to say something about themselves.

Yep.

It had nothing to do with what Cards Against Humanity brought to the world, except for giving the customer an opportunity for them to express something about themselves.

Yes.

That's the point when you realize you don't have to have any of the answers. Your only job is to be a guide for the customer to express something about themselves. It gets a lot easier for. To make these decisions.

Yes. When I could not agree more.

And you have nothing to add.

I have nothing to add to that other than I love that your move was to ask the customer at the end. Right. It's that easy. It's that easy to just ask them. Ask them, what are you doing next? What's your next, you know, oh, shit moment? Right. What's your Next thing that you're trying to take care of, Right? Like, I love that. I love that. Ask them and get that information.

Well, I learned this from you, Max, because, you know, I've told the story a thousand times. There's gonna be a thousand one. The one question I remember you asking me in our first sit down was, how does this company help the customer become the hero in their own story? It was the first time I ever heard it in those words in a way that made me go, oh, it's.

Not about what we're doing.

It has nothing to do with the product. It has to do with the hero in the story that is the customer. And our job is to make it easier for them to express that.

Exactly.

And that's it.

Yeah. And that's why I love this example of the. Of the bridal shower and the game, because literally, that is a moment where if you nail it, you are the hero. People literally are like, oh, my God, you plan the greatest party. Right? And if you fuck it up, you are the villain. Right? Or not the villain, but you are. You just like, everyone's like, oh, yeah, she tried so hard, but it just really wasn't fun, right? Like, it really wasn't good. Like, you know, I feel so bad for her, right? The two outcomes are, like, it's such a wide range of, you know, top of the mountain, bottom of the valley, that, like, that's why I love this example is. It's just.

It's really, really clear. So we brought up sleep as an example earlier, and I work with a sleep company that has done really, really well, and they're going through this process of discovering who they are and where they go. And one of the challenges is I can guide them in whatever direction they want to go. Like, I have that capability. I have the network. I have the knowledge to be able to help them on this journey. Except that they have a really hard time answering that question of who is it that we want to serve? Because multiple people have bought their product because the people they originally targeted aren't the people who are showing up and buying and talking about it. So they're having that mismatch of expectations versus what has happened now. They've had success, but it hasn't been the people they expected. And there's still, like, one hero product. And so I kind of sit on the sidelines. Like, when you know where you want to go, I can make this real easy for you. But to figure out where you want to go has been such a challenge for so many Entrepreneurs. So how do you help people with that?

Yeah, so that's actually a great question. Honestly, this could probably be almost an entire another podcast. But this is the difference between when I work with someone who is just starting out and which I don't typically do, but in the right situations where someone has, they're funding a business with cash flow from another business or something like that, or they have investment or capital or something like that. You know, I work with a company that's just starting out and at that point you're kind of guessing, right? You can go out and talk to people in the general market and you have this idea of like, okay, here's who I'm targeting, here's what they want. I'm gonna create marketing that I think will connect with this person or whatever that'll be able to sell products. But then eventually you have to kind of do a check, right? And you have to come in and say like, okay, who is actually buying? Right. I've been putting this message out in the world that I think is gonna meet these people over here, but, oh, in reality it's these people over here who are buying. Then you have to kind of decide, okay, one of two things needs to happen. Either I am not serving the person that I set out to serve and I need to adjust course to serve that person and figure out what that person actually wants so that I can adjust my marketing and my product mix and everything to serve that person, or I can take these people who have been coming in, who my message is already resonating with, and say, what do you guys want? And then reorient to the brand kind of more around, around there.

But it has to start with like knowing who that person.

Yeah, start with knowing who that person is. And if the people that are coming in the door are not. I mean, there's. So there's one exception to this. This is when the customer that you're building the brand around is more of like a taste maker type. Like if you're selling a really premium product, if you're selling something that's like seen as more like kind of high end luxury, right? You might target a high end customer, let's say, you know, like someone who is super wealthy, who is a member of a specific elite group or whatever. And then you have kind of a down market version that you sell a lot of to people who want to be that. Right. Who are kind of aspirationally see themselves as that. So that's one exception. But for the most part, you build around your customers and if you've built your company and you get 18 months down the road and the people who are actually coming in the door don't look like the people who you thought, then you need to say, okay, clearly, you know, my marketing is working with these people. Right. So I don't need to adjust that. I just need to fine tune it. And then I need to make sure that the products that I'm rolling out are stuff that these people are going to buy.

So I'm gonna give one exception to this. And that exception is I do know entrepreneurs who are very in tune with that. But serving that audience does not make them happy. And they're a one or two person show and they don't want to go to that market because that's not the company that they want. And ultimately, I think we're all doing all this work listening to two dudes talk about business on a podcast, trying to up our own game, because we are after some sort of a better experience of life. And so if what the data says is now what you want, just do what you want. You'll have a smaller business. Maybe.

Or maybe not. Yeah, well, and maybe not. And maybe it's just a matter of like, okay, I need to tweak my messaging to be, because clearly what I'm doing now is not resonating with those people. So, like, if I want to sell more to this audience over here that I originally set out to sell but isn't currently buying, that means that what I'm putting out there just isn't resonating.

You're right. Absolutely right. And so then the process becomes about finding out what the people that we want to be targeting.

Yeah.

What their purchase behavior, what their thought patterns are and going and entering that conversation rather than who it was that.

We were targeting before. Yeah. And I only default to the other version because it's always easier to get someone who's already bought from you to buy more.

Yeah, right.

Growing lifetime value, it's like the difference in sales, right. Between hunters and farmers. Right. And sales, you have people whose job it is to go get new accounts. Right. And go, you know, pound the pavement and, you know, show up at people's offices and get that new account no matter what it costs. Right. Then you have the people whose job it is. You know, once that account's in the door to just grow the business.

Right.

And so continually sell more stuff to them, that's always an easier job. I default to that just because most people that come to me, they're trying to Grow the size of their business from where it is now.

And to be fair, most people just from the ground floor have no idea who that person is anyway.

Yeah.

So doing any sort of analysis into who is showing up is a huge step in the right direction compared to most people who are just looking to take the next order.

Yeah, but let's, let's use like an example of athletics. Right. If you have someone who, like, they're really trying to sell to an elite athlete, Right. They want like potential NFL, you know, combine people or something, and no one in that group is buying their product and they're just selling to like weekend warrior workout type people. Yeah. If you're burning passion is selling to that elite audience. Right. Then you need to go figure out what do I need to do to sell to that lead audience. Right. If your goal is like, I just like, you know, fitness equipment, I really believe in what I'm selling and I'm, oh, hey, I didn't know that I. That these people would be interested in my product. But hey, they're here and they love it and I can get really passionate about that. Then, hell yeah, go figure out what else you can do to serve those people.

Yeah. The deeper I get into this work, the more interesting it becomes. Because the deeper I get into it, the more I realize a we as entrepreneurs don't have the answers and don't have to have the answers. And our job is to bring solutions to people who are already doing their thing, living their lives. And when you do that, the upside is just so big. And I'm reminded of a quote from one of my friends, Jesse Elder, who said when he spoke at the Capitalism conference four years ago, he said the hardest part is figuring out how easy.

It is, because that's a good one.

Because we just put so many obstacles in our way that keep us from moving forward in what would seem to be the obvious. Which is why listening to us talk about it or working with you or coming to my workshops that I do can be so valuable. Because sometimes that sounding board is just like, oh, right, there's the plan. So, Max, where do people find you?

You can either go on my website, brand builderstrategy.com and submit a question on the form that I have, or you can reach out to me directly atmaxbrandbuilderstrategy.com.

Before we go, I want to do a quick preview for what you and I have coming down the pike.

Yeah.

We won't give any details here, but one of the things I'm excited about is to document the build out of the companies that we're building together.

Yes.

When I started podcasting, I was documenting me trying experimental things on Amazon.

Right.

And selling lots of physical products. And now I have, I think, the biggest Amazon following in the world. Right. So for us to be now on the ground floor building some new companies and documenting them here on the show, I'm pretty jazzed about it.

Yeah, I'm pretty excited, too. I can't wait. We have some really, really cool stuff that we're working on. I can't wait to share with you guys.

Well, stay tuned for that. Max, good to see you as always.

Always. Hey, brand builders. We hope you enjoyed this podcast by capitalism.com check out our website for upcoming events and additional content about building businesses, building brands, and investing. My name is Max Herwick and my mission in life is to transform businesses into brands. Do you have any feedback about the show? Any guests you want to see, case studies covered, topics explored, or frankly, just any questions about branding in general, just shoot me an email@maxmaxrandbuilderstrategy.com again, that's maxrandbuilderstrategy.com and I'd love to hear from you. One quick note, if you could subscribe to the podcast or even leave us a review on itunes. These things really do make a big difference in helping us book amazing guests and then also helping people just like you find the podcast podcast. So thanks and we'll see you next time.