#TBT - Turn Likes And Clicks From Your Audience Into Loyal Buyers w/ George Bryant

And so of course, you can sell products that don't require somebody to have a relationship with, but the product becomes a transaction and then it becomes dispensable and they don't feel like they own it. When you get somebody into a story or connected to a brand or a bigger purpose, the sock just becomes the gateway. It becomes the entry point to them being your brand advocate. Using 82% of marketing, that's still word of mouth, talking about how their socks make you feel and look and think things like that. And so for me, if we were to cut out Amazon, if we were to cut out the Internet and we were to go back to brick and mortar like my grandparents did, you'd have to build a relationship with every one of those soc customers.

Ain't that the truth?

The same exact profit margin that you do now, if not less. And those principalities of relationship building and marketing are what's going to build the foundation for you to scale your company.

Hey, capitalists. In traditional Throwback Thursday fashion, we're re releasing one of our most popular episodes that we've had on capitalism dot com.

Enjoy.

Yo, Ryan here. Last year I was at Aubrey Marcus's house for a fundraiser for an organization called maps.maps.org, the organization that I super support. They're doing amazing things in the world. And at the event, there were a bunch of high rollers, you know, people that are kind of famous in our industry, movers and shakers. All the people that you hear, if you listen to other podcasts that have mentioned Maps, they were all there. It was like.

And it was the super bowl.

So it was this big, awesome party. It was just, it was a great time. And in the corner being all quiet is this mysterious dude in a hoodie just acting all chill, chill. Af, we might say. And we start talking and I'm like, do I know you from somewhere? And he introduces himself and his name is George Bryant. And George and I had some mutual friends way back in the marketing day, but we had never met in person. And we were fast friends because I heard him talk about his approach to business and really his human side to business and how he treats likes like people and he treats followers like people. I was like, man, this is so sorely missed in our little world. And we had a little bromance from pretty much from the first get go. And I brought George onto Wine with Wyan last year and Wine with Wyan's coming back. Everybody make sure you're subscribed on YouTube and on Facebook. It's gonna make a comeback in 2019. And it was our most watched, most loved episode that we did in season one. We'll call it Of Wine with Wine. And then we brought him to speak at the Brand Builder Summit. He was the most popular person to speak at Brand Builder Summit. Every time he talks to our audience, people shut up and they listen. And so I pulled him aside with my buddy Max Kerwick, and we interviewed him on using social media and using paid campaigns and using content to sell more stuff, specifically physical products. He is the go to guy that people go to.

That was a double phrase. He's the go to guy that people go to to go to for things. And one of the things that people go to to go to for is him working on their paid campaigns and their email campaigns to promote physical products. And he's been behind some really amazing brands, including on it, including Nike or Reebok, one of those shoe companies, including some big magazines. He talks about all of them in this episode. But this is specifically designed for physical product sellers and how they can use content and social media to sell more stuff. And George's entire focus is on finding out exactly what the person, what the customer needs so that you can deliver that message in a way that makes them want to buy from you, spread your message and come back over and over again. Far and away, George's time on stage at the Brand Builder Summit was seen as the most helpful and the most impactful for the entrepreneurs who were in the audience. And this is our backstage conversation with George on what he does and how it impacts you as a physical product owner, seller, advisor, or investor.

So please help me welcome the Oz.

Behind the curtain, George Bryant.

George, do you have a middle name moniker, Bryant?

I like having a middle name moniker as my middle.

By the end of this podcast, we're gonna have a middle name moniker for George the Blank Brian.

I like it. I like it. I trust you for that one, George.

You are getting a little bit famous in these circles, mostly because everything you say, it sounds smart. I don't know if it's actually smart, but it sure sounds smart. For those who aren't familiar with you and are about to be, I kind of call you the Oz behind the curtain behind a lot of really successful physical products brands. Maybe we could just call you George the Oz, Brian.

Oh, we're getting.

We're getting close already. You've already got a letter, one syllable.

Yeah, like that.

And just be by. Go by Oz as a nickname. But anyway, I know what that means to me. What does that mean to you to be the Oz behind the curtain.

Yeah. So thank you.

I don't know if I'm getting famous. I think I just out care everybody else.

What does that mean to you?

Making sure that people feel like they matter. So I think we live in this world and specifically in our space, we see it all the time where people, people come to us as like the lighthouse in the dark storm, where like we are where they want to post their attention. Like, oh, you've been there, you've done it. I trust you, I believe in you and I'm like giving you myself. And then they ask us questions and most of the time they don't get responses or they don't get answers or we're like, hey, you have to pay me for that or hey, it's X amount of dollars. And so for me it's like I basically have a rule that like anybody who comes into my space, they become my current mission until I feel like I've left it better than I found it. Conferences, podcasts, DMs, on social, and I've basically systemized everything else in my business so I can be in relationship with the people that are actually running the business or making it happen or that we're supporting.

And how does that translate over into what you do with brands? Specifically physical product brands?

Yeah. So the, the wrap of that is I say I help companies ethically scale. And so I basically come into companies and I use my expertise. 10 years of digital marketing, building my own company, becoming New York Times bestseller, launching a number one app, and now overseeing, you know, $30 million a month in ad spend, to basically look at the company, look at the offerings, look at the Internet, look at their customers and help them create permission, safety and accountability for their customers to educate, empower or inspire them to choose their life or solve their problem.

On a tactical level.

Yes.

What does that look like?

So that looks like paid media strategy, affiliate marketing strategy, massive amounts of like influencer campaigns, working together, building long term relationships. Email marketing is still my favorite thing in the entire world that everybody thinks is dead, that they just don't know how to use. And organic social as well, like organic traffic is still my number one area to play in and it's the easiest space to be in. And there is no, you miss the boat. It's, you just get to show up every day. So with, with all of those aspects combined, some Amazon strategy and things like that, we put the umbrella over the company on like what the product is and who the product is for and we figure out what that customer is, then we figure out everywhere where we can go and meet that customer to add value, to create touch points, to allow them to self identify, to then choose our products.

I want to ask you about ethically scaling through social, because you just said that no one has missed the boat with social.

Nope.

And you have said you out care everybody else. But I also know that there are times when you go on a tear and answer 1100 direct messages.

Yes.

Personally.

Yes.

And tell me how that can ethically scale.

And the reason I do that honestly is to have ammunition to take everybody else's power away from them. I speak on this all the time. I was like, how can I do that? And like, will you choose to do it? And so I make sure that I'm in the position to not be pontificating and actually like doing the work, being there. And so for me, business is. Business like everything is figure the F out able. And it's all been done before. We're all repeating iterations of models and products and it's amazing. But most of the time our egos over complicate the whole damn thing. And we make stuff up, we make it harder than we need to be. And at the core of all of our businesses are our customers. And our customers should be our customers. Agnostic of platform, social, email strategy, paid. They should be our customers. And that's the relationship that gets to be built. So for me, anything that gets in the way of us building that relationship is a waste of time that I shouldn't be doing. So from writing things or doing fulfillment and things like that, where I'd see a lot of CEOs or C suite people diving into the weeds, create systems and processes out of those things to remove the things that don't require human interaction so you can be there to interact. So when I say ethically scaling on social media, one of the biggest mistakes I see brands making, and there's a professional sports team that just hired me that has 2 million followers and gets 30 comments per post on Instagram. Like, we love our fans. I'm like, your fans don't love you, right? Like 30 comments. But the reason is, is that we create these platforms, or let's say Instagram, for example, we show up, we write this engaging caption, we post this photo. People self identify. They're like, yeah, that's me. Like, I got that. Or I'm that person. We get them to trust us and they comment and then we train them that we don't care about them because we never respond. So why have it in the first place? Because when you do it in that context, it's about you, not about the customer. And if it's going to be about you, you might as well not do it, make it about the customer. So then build it around so when somebody does comment, you can set a container to respond, to engage, to ask questions and to build those two way relationships. So for me, out caring on Instagram and is just doing one thing further than everybody else, which is either responding or sliding into their DMs or looking at their profile like, God, your puppy's so cute. And doing it as part of the process of building these relationships. Because once somebody comments on your social right, you have, let's call it, let's call it four brands that all sell the same product. And someone's like, yeah, I really, really want to use that supplement because I'm type 2 diabetic and I'm Hashimoto's and you know, these are my questions and they're going to ask the same question to four different people. The one that responds will keep them for life. And so that's the place to be in. So when I say ethically, it's just caring enough about your customers to be connected to them. And yes, when you get millions of followers, there's not like the easiest way to be like, yeah, respond to everyone, but you can create containers around it. So when I go on a podcast to be congruent, I'm like, hey, if you have a marketing question, I promise you I will answer you. It might take me 7 days, 14 days, but if you send me a DM, I will personally answer it, right? And So I got 1100 DMS and I told you about that. And not all of those I can get on a phone call with, not all of them would even be a fit to be a client of mine or for me to consult, but all of them deserve a couple minutes of my time. And it's where I learn about all of the challenges that businesses are having. It's where I learn about what the current state of the market is. It's where I learn about what's working, what's not working in different CPG brands. Because someone's like, hey, I have a watch company and I've been doing this, but I'm struggling with this. I'm like, interesting. I respond with my answer of like, what? I will try. And I make a mental note. And then someone's like, I have a protein company and I'm doing the Exact opposite. And it's working. And then I'm like, oh, interesting, try this. And I pay attention. And so I give everybody 15, 20 second responses. And anyone that I feel like I can help more or there's a good fit for, I'm like, hey, shoot us an email and send us all this information and we'll review it and we'll get back to you. And then out of that, we're like, maybe we can't get on a call, maybe it's not a good fit. But I'll send them like a one hour video training that I did on email marketing. And I'm like, you can apply this to your business. So no matter what, here you go. And then the ones that do qualify get on a phone call and end up hiring me for consulting.

I want to play devil's advocate for just a moment so there's somebody listening. His name is Hank.

Hank.

And Hank is like, bro, easy for you to say. Your 20k a day or whatever your consulting rate is, you do 100k keynotes. So it's worth your time to respond to every single one of those. Because out of a hundred people, one of them is gonna be totally pay you 20k to show up, right?

Yes.

But Hank is like, I sell sock puppets, bro.

Yep.

So I ain't gonna respond to every single person. So how does that scale on a brand that is working with profit margins of 30 to 50%?

Totally. Well, I just want to clear the air. It's not 20k. It's way more than that.

My apologies.

And I responded for eight years before it became 20K. And I just want to be clear on that. And the reason I responded for 8 years is so it could become 100k kino, because it was all of those relationships that built the social deposits and the reciprocity to where I don't have to market myself. And people like, will you come speak? So and so told me about you. So and so said you answered their marketing question even though they couldn't afford you. And it literally changed their business. I was like, it took me 15 seconds on Instagram to reply. And so that's why. And so when you get into the world of like physical products or margins, I think the most important thing that I always focus on is that people don't buy from brands. They buy from people. People don't buy from Lululemon, they buy from the woman in the yoga pants at the store. Right. And so people want to be able to self identify with a brand. They want to see somebody Wearing the socks or driving the car or like, away luggage is a perfect example. Or Harry's, the shaving company telling a.

Story about their life through the brands.

That they use totally.

And they want to be able to go and be like, okay, I want to be like that. I want to self identify. And so, of course, you can sell products that don't require somebody to have a relationship with, but the product becomes a transaction, and then it becomes dispensable, and they don't feel like they own it. When you get somebody into a story or connected to a brand or a bigger purpose, the sock just becomes the gateway. It becomes the entry point to them being your brand advocate. Using 82% of marketing, that's still word of mouth, talking about how their socks make you feel and look and things like that. And so for me, if we were to cut out Amazon, if we were to cut out the Internet, and we were to go back to brick and mortar like my grandparents did, you'd have to build a relationship with every one of those customers the same exact profit margin that you do now, if not less. And those principalities of relationship building and marketing are what's going to build the foundation for you to scale your company. We became addicted to the disconnection and the click of use, and we're in a cycle of marketing now. And I love watching it repeat itself because it's about to implode because people have created so much that everybody's discerning and no longer buying. People are getting their CPAs four, five, six times what they were three years ago, but the only ones that are still winning are the ones that are still building relationships and giving value and with content, regardless if they buy the product or not.

God, that makes me so happy. I'm so surprised that every time I have a question in life, it comes down to relationships or who you're working with, not what you're doing or how you're doing it. And, Max, could you correct me if I'm. If I'm wrong or if you disagree? But it's my impression that when you have that type of relational connection, your price points and your profit margins can go way up. Because people are now buying into something that. That says something about themselves. They're no longer buying a trinket. They're buying the sock pocket, whatever the hell Hank sells.

I like Hank sock puppets.

Hank sock puppets are now a reflection of some sort of connection that I had that says something about myself.

Exactly. They're trying to tell a story about themselves to the people around them, and they're doing that through the products and brands that they buy. And that's what I think is really interesting about what you're saying is I'm a big believer in the best brands are customer centric, right? They start with who their customer is and what their customer wants and build out everything from the products they sell to the experience of buying to the marketing materials and everything. So I guess my question to you is, as someone who has built up this presence in digital marketing, which a lot of people think of as a numbers game, just run a bunch of people through a funnel and convert as.

Many as you can.

Totally worry about sales, not customer retention. Like, how do you balance those two things of making a relationship and playing this numbers game?

Yeah, for me it's not balanced. You only have one way to win and it's build the relationship first. But the analogy I like to use because I love the funnel game and quite frankly, I play devil's advocate to most people because they're like, you're full of crap, you can't do that, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, let's play, let's get into this. And so for me, it's a simple numbers game. We're sitting in a room right now together. There's three of us. We could probably fit 100 people in this room if we really, really crammed it in. So on current digital marketing standards, if I filled this room with a hundred people and I said, how many of you like me? Only three hands would go up. I don't like those odds. That does not give people the ammunition in their life to talk positively about me or my brand, whether they have given me their credit card or not. The average person in a 60 second conversation gives between 5 and 10 brand recommendations or non recommendations, both verbally and non verbally. The car that they drive, the purse that they have, the coffee that they're drinking, the time type of film that they you what the daycare was like, how the barista was so sweet and how that yoga teacher completely kicked her ass. But those yoga pants from Lululemon were the most comfortable thing ever and nobody could see through them after they fixed it. And nobody even thinks about it because it just becomes a part of our psyche. So my goal is to give people the ammunition to load their gun with nothing but positive things to talk about me so I can penetrate those conversations and capitalize on 82% of marketing that's done virtual. A word of mouth. And so I don't like the odds of only three People out of a hundred saying yes. So I just refuse to accept them. So maybe only three people convert on the front end. And then where you waste all your money retargeting them, trying to get them to basically become a high end sex deal and sleep with you on the first date. I do the exact opposite. They said no. No means no. That means you failed and you suck. You did not fail get them enrolled in their vision. You did not get them to self identify with something and associate you with a solution. So stop trying to shove it down their throat and play the reciprocity game. They said no, Let them say no, then run an ad instead giving them something or asking them a question or, I don't know, building a relationship so when they leave, they can't walk out of their house or turn their phone and be like, God, this Ryan Moran guy or Hank that was self me sock pups. I told him no and he literally hit me six more times. You want a sock puppet? You want a sock pup? No, F you. I don't want a sock puppet. I didn't want it the first time. But I did want the kids book that I can read to my kids at night, regardless if I have your sock puppets or not. And then I'm going to talk about you. Pause. Because this guy Hank tried to sell me sock puppets. I said no. He actually saved me a free gift. He gave me a book to read to my kids at night and I didn't even buy sock puppets. And then now all of a sudden the girlfriend's like, who's hanging tank?

Well, what this reminds me of, there's a lot of freedom in this to me, because you participated in a course we did called profitable Product launches, where I make the argument that you really need like 100 to 500 people at the beginning in order to stick a product profitably. And most people think they need to have a big influencer, they need to have a big audience. And those things certainly help when you're ready to cash the check or pull the leverage. But if all you did was put together a Facebook group of 500 people and you were doing content and connection for three weeks and you were talking about the product as almost a byproduct on launch day, if you've got 100 buyers or 200 buyers at full price, you're now profitable, which you can roll into the next line of inventory and the snowball starts to build. And what I'm hearing you say is that you would rather have 100 people if 100 people are gonna buy.

Yes.

Then 10,000 people with.05% conversion rates that you can then. Because they're gonna scale organically. Totally.

And even with that hundred people. And what you said is completely true. And that's why I love that you say it. Because I feel like if you look at the world of digital marketing and why it's so disruptive when we have this one's, like, you need to do this. You need to run this traffic. You got to get your CPA now. You need to go screw yourself because you're teaching people to destroy their lives and their families and cash in their 401ks just because you sold them a pipe dream. Because you don't know what you're doing and you got them to buy a piece of content rather than doing it your damn self. Like, that's really where the problem is. And so when you say that, it makes me happy because it's not even mvp, because I don't believe in minimal vial product. The product itself isn't really the solution. The product is a gateway for somebody to find their solution. No matter what you do, somebody is coming to us and looking to us in a vulnerable moment, whether it's weight loss, whether it's supplementation, whether it's women's health or even socks. Like, I don't feel in the weight loss world, like, when somebody buys a product, we don't want them to continue to need our products because that's handing them a fish. And then if they don't complete it or they don't finish it, it creates resentment, it creates ammunition, because then they associate the lack of completion on us rather than owning it, which doesn't really change them. So when you can build these relationships with people and you have that group of people, a hundred people in the group, you get 20 of them, 30 of them to buy, which is amazing. But then the other 70 still feel valuable because you ask them questions and you solve their problems, and it just wasn't a good fit. So you still have a hundred people that raise their hand and say, yes, I really, really like you. Right. Which gives you ammunition for people to defend you on the Internet or go talk about you or talk about them to your girlfriends until they then self identify. Like, wait, maybe I do want what Ryan has to offer. But I was just one touch point away, or that one post away from being like, oh, that landed for me. Now I'm going to step into that and go take that action. And so the hundred group or the 500 group is amazing. And the Relationships that's there. And you know, to be really honestly, when it comes to products, when it comes to digital products specifically, I don't even create products anymore until I've spent three weeks paying attention to what people are responding to. I call it like ethical puppet mastering where I basically am posting content or doing a video on a topic and then I'm noticing the responses I get and I'm either hearing what they're saying or what they're not saying.

Ethical.

What was it?

Puppet mastering.

Sponsored by Hank. Sock puppets.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And so when you really, really think about it digitally, it's amazing. What we currently do is we'll build that group of people. We're like, hey, we're creating this, we want this group to be there. And then we'll create this product that we think they want and then we'll sell them what we think they want, rather than asking them what they want, giving it to them and then allowing them to associate us with the solution, feeling like they're a part of it and owning it, creating the results. Then give them the ammunition to go feed that machine outside of it and then reinvest back in. And the same thing happens with physical products. Like we have products that are out there. Like supplements are the easiest one, right? And I literally this to somebody other day and it was on Amazon. They're like, alright, so we have this supplement and we're trying to figure out what flavor we want. We're about to pay for this market research. I'm like, can I save you like a quarter of a million dollars? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, is that how much that stupid thing would have cost? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, cool. Who are your four biggest competitors on Amazon? And they're like, so? So, so, so I'm like, great, let's pull them all up. And I'm like, let's go read every single review and see what flavor everybody's asking for that no one else has given them yet. And I was like, you're welcome.

A couple hours there.

And then I was like, go make the flavor and pick a date. Now go back to every one of those pages and under your brand, go respond to the comments and be like, you know what, I'm sorry we didn't hear you sooner, but we read your review and we're launching that product soon. We'd love for you to try it. And then go create an ad copy and paste the testimonial from your competitor and run it as a Facebook ad and be like, at least we listen and target all of their people with the new flavor of the product that they won't launch. I don't know.

Well, what's interesting, whenever I hear you talk, there's this weird in me.

There's like these two extremes that I still am bridging. And it's. You talk about scale, and to me, I think about scale as going big. But everything that you talk about is on the micro. It's listening, it's connection.

Because the micro is what informs the scaling. Micro is where scaling. You can only scale one person at a time.

I totally get that. So when you got the micro dialed in, what do you do to scale?

That we actually continue to basically pursue what we're doing with micro. Like, micro is the easiest one ever. But once we find a system or a process or a solution where we're empowering micros, where it's working, we then replicate the model into other verticals or into different audiences. So if we have a micro of a mom blogger in fitness, and, like, we are empowering her, she's got 8,000 followers. We're getting a 21x roas on her Instagram ads, and rather than her paying for them, we're paying for her ads to her affiliate link and making her $100,000 that she's never made before. And it works. Then we replicate it and we find another one and we build another. Another influencer.

Okay.

That wants our support. We'll send a videographer to your house. We'll record the content. We just want to use it as a content creation. We'll replicate them all.

Okay.

So just.

Just to synthesize all this, what you're.

Saying, I need a whiteboard on a podcast.

That's an Alexis skill coming to you soon.

Even whiteboard audio, visual whiteboarding.

So what I think I'm hearing you say is that when you're working with a brand or you have a brand, if you've got an influencer with a mommy blogger, for example, you're finding out the micro on that influencer specifically to promote the brand that you're a part of. Yep. And you're spending as much time as necessary in order to dial in that micro audience.

Yep.

Then the scale piece is taking those systems to other influencers, other bloggers. And that's how you ethically scale the company. It's not necessarily scaling the processes. You're duplicating the processes to scale the company.

Yeah. And the reason is, is like, we're human beings we like to over complicate things. We are simple creatures. I hate to tell everybody listening to this, but we are simple creatures. And so I don't have to solve for every influencer because a lot of people try to solve for the influencer. I solve for what's underneath. What's the driving factor that makes that woman follow that mommy blogger? Not that she's a mommy blogger, but is it body image? Is it self love? Is it I don't know how to do self care? And we solve for what's below that to understand the psychology of, like, why people are on social or why they're engaging with that mom. A lot of people solve for the surface and they try to replicate the surface, but you can't because that relationship is built with that influencer. And so we look at it a little bit deeper. Like, why do these people follow this woman? Like, what is it about her? What is it that she has that they want to embody? And then when we meet other influencers, in this case, I'm just talking about influencer marketing. Once we solve for that equation, the systems and processes are there. We know that we can do our videos and paid media and ads, and then we figure out, like, what it is that she has, and we find somebody like it in a different space that has authenticity, has that relationship with their customers and that. And all we do is we just put the lens on it. Like, we're like, okay, yep, these are the videos we would do. This is how we would do it. These are the ads that we would run. And this is how you're empowered to still build that relationship with your audience. So when we grab an influencer or when I work with influencers, design it, my number one is that our partnership with that influencer makes them a better influencer, more credible and valuable to their audience, regardless of my product.

Do you start with your client's message and then find the influencers? That underlying thing kind of aligns with.

That, or do you Sometimes I think the biggest, biggest thing is right now with any brands that are existing, we already have our hypers. We have the people that literally are the advocates of our brand. The only problem is we're not paying attention to them. We're waiting for somebody with a hundred thousand fans or a million fans to shout us out, but yet we have a hundred people with ten thousand fans that literally sell all their cousins our product and we don't even pay attention to them. So I start there. I start by paying attention to, like, what is there? And so I had this conversation last night at our dinner. Thanks for dinner, Ryan.

And.

And we were talking about influencer marketing and I had a glass of wine. So I was pretty opinionated. And I said, my problem with influencer marketing is that everybody tries to solve influencer marketing by giving the same thing to all influencers. And quite frankly, it's disrespectful because no influencer is the same. And quite. I don't want 18 cases of your product, nor do I want your thousand dollars a month, because that might not be what drives me in life. I want to have a mutually beneficial relationship. And I was like, so here's a perfect example. I had some influencers of the company that we really, really, really wanted to create, like, content for us, but they didn't want to post it on their social media. I'm like, cool, don't. I'm like, I'll send a video to you, to your house. I would love to pay you X amount per month and create this content for me and I'll put it on my social and I'll promote you and help build your brand. I'll even run my ads to your affiliate link on my social. I just want you in the content. Like, yeah, it's. It's not about the money, George. I'm like, oh, cool. What isn't like, oh, I have this and this and this. So we bought him a car.

Okay, go on.

And I was like, I looked at the math and their followers are massive. We would have probably invested close to $40,000 a year to get the content. And so instead we basically invested into A$399 a month car payment and gave them a lease. That solved their problem. And every time they stick the key key in the ignition, they think about me. And every time they put their hand on the steering wheel, they think about me. And every time they put their kid in the car seat in the back, they think about me and my brand. And they post more on social about us now than they ever did when we paid them to create the content.

Braingasm.

Yeah, seriously, that is awesome.

And so then we're empowering them not to be a better influencer. We're empowering them to have a better life and then to associate that with. With us regardless of if they buy our product or use our product, which quite frankly, ethically a byproduct is they will buy your product and use your product and talk about your product. And the reason I can share this so publicly is because if you have no morals, this will not work. So good luck. And you're gonna have influencers driving Teslas and have no idea why your business isn't scaling. It's one of those examples. And so I think you can look at it like so many marketing is built on principles. And we were talking about this in the beginning, that there's this cycle that happens and then the foundational principles are there. Then new technology comes, new things come, paid media comes, television comes, radio comes. But eventually when all the facade goes away, it all gets back to the same principles. And so I think if you build your business, actually, I don't think I know. If you build your business on those principles, you build those hundred true fans, five hundred true fans. You, you build mutually beneficial, long term, two way relationships. It won't matter what you stack on top of it, what other product you stack, what avenue you stack, what social channel you stack, they will follow you and your product will get legs and will go where it needs to go because the foundational principles are there. People feel heard, they feel connected, they feel like they matter and they associate that with your brand. And so when I say ethically scale, it's focusing on the customers and actually doing what we say we are going to do. Like, oh, the mission of my company is to empower women to love their bodies.

Great.

Why the don't you respond to them on social media?

Yeah.

That is not. You are like a walking incongruency.

Yeah.

And you wonder why your company doesn't scale. It's because you're more addicted to being right than you are addicted to helping your customers. And so when you look at what's underneath all of these brands and these influences and things that got to the point where they are like Jeff Bezos back in like 97, when somebody bought a book because they were so small, they would look at the receipt and because it was a very connected, educational office, they'd be like, do you guys know this guy? And there's a guy, I went to college with him. Wow. He just bought this book. Let's send him a handwritten note and thank him for buying this book. Because that level of personalization and connection was there. But they out cared everybody. And somebody gets a piece in the mail like, hey, just remembered I went to college. You, I'm working on Amazon now. I saw this book and I thought about you. Enjoy.

Cool.

And there's, there's a thought I'm having.

Here that I want to call out.

Because the initial reaction to that is I think you're saying, do what you say you're gonna do, obviously. And some people will say, well, that means I have to do things that I don't want to do. But I'm going to flip this. I'm going to say, what is equally scalable is only promising what you are willing to fulfill.

Yes, exactly.

And that's the inverse that I think people miss, is they do something for a result, and then they burn out. But if you just scale what's natural for you totally, then you're more likely to.

You nailed it.

And the framing nailed it. Because I say this to people. I say, only go where you naturally want to go. So, like, I'll have people like, I want to be an influencer. I'm like, cool. Like, when you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing you open? They're like, instagram. I'm like, great, delete everything else off your phone. Instagram's your platform. Yeah, I'm like, whatever. You are naturally drawn to. Like, I.

And mine's podcasting. Perfect example.

Like, mine is standing in front of people bumping my gums. Because I'm addicted to hearing myself talk. Like, and I love it. Like, it gives me fuel and passion, so I don't try to put myself behind the camera and do video anymore. I'm like, where can I find people? Where can I build relationships? Like, who can I talk to to allow me to do that? And that's my current strength. And so I heard a talk the other day. I was actually. I was with Clay Hebert and Kim. And Kim, she did a talk on who you are in your worst moment is who you truly are. And it was a really interesting perspective of, like, when things get stacked on top of you or stress or life or whatever. How you subconsciously choose to react in that moment is. Is basically a core definition of, like, maybe who you are based on your level of understanding. And I was like, that's really interesting. And I was like, so when you think about that in your marketing or what you promise in your messaging or in your product, make sure that you're being completely, congruently aligned to who you are. Like, your head, your heart, and your belly feels in the right place. So when the pressure of scaling comes or when an order isn't fulfilled or there's a big return or something doesn't go that you naturally show up aligned and excited about that and not trying to check the boxes that everybody else told you to do so you can keep going and run the course to, like, see it through that resistance. So I love that framing.

Yeah.

By the way, the thing that I'm.

Reacting to the most is this idea of a promise and having that be like kind of a consistent thing that you go back to. You're talking about if you have 100 people in the room and only three of them like you. Right. Versus 100 people in the room, maybe only three of them buy from you.

Yes.

But the other 97 still like you. Yeah. There are ways you can deliver on that promise beyond the product that you sell them.

Yes. Yes. Because. Because really, in my opinion, marketing or somebody buying a product, the transaction of the product is nothing more than you building a successful connection and relationship that allowed them to purchase that product. That product is nothing more than a bridge.

Yeah.

That is all that it is. It is either a bridge to the beginning, a bridge to the middle, or bridge to the end. End. Somebody's going to buy that product because they've never gone to the gym before. And now that is the beginning of you building habits around them going to the gym, consuming water, changing their diet, and associating that success with you. If they've already lost £40 and you're teaching them how to go keto, you don't need to teach them how to go to the gym anymore. But you still just built a bridge to the next level. And all that does is give them the accountability. I said it earlier, there's three things that people need to change anything in their life. And this is an original thought. Somebody should probably trademark this or make a business about it. Permission, safety, and accountability. Permission and safety come from storytelling, but permission comes. And in most marketing, what we do now is we're like, hey, you're doing it wrong. You need this. Like, you need to lose this. Right. Subconsciously, it creates defensiveness. It closes people off.

Yeah.

Who are you to tell me what I should.

Exactly.

And so it literally takes a relationship. We're equal human beings. And if you can, you can see my hands right now. I talk with my hands. We're equal human beings. And it elevates it up to, I'm better than you. So immediately you lose. You've already lost. Right. Permission is. When you use storytelling, you see this all the time, Right. Like, hey, I understand. I went keto and gained weight. I was 100 pounds overweight, and I've been struggling this for eight years. And I finally figured it out. All of a sudden I'm like, you need to figure it out. You need to lose weight. They're like, wait, that's me. They self identify with what you're saying, which opens them up, because now it's their choice versus you telling them that they're wrong or that they need to do it well.

And that gives you permission as a brand and as a company to offer them so much more than just that single point solution. Yes.

And so the permission comes from being that pillar or that lighthouse in the storm to like, I'm struggling, I'm struggling. He gets it, they get it. She gets it. And then not necessarily having to do anything with that. And then the safety comes through, all the touch points that build relationships. It takes 50, 15 to 25 touch points to get somebody from never hearing from you to buying your product. You don't do that by being like, hey, give me your credit card. Hey, give me your credit card. Hey, give me your credit card. 15 times. It doesn't work. Eventually you're gonna get smacked in the mouth. Like, it just doesn't work. So they self identify, and then you use your content, your brand, your storytelling, your product, the pain points of your customers, the testimonials to literally share different pillars of the journey so they feel safe to own their story. They're like, God, like, totally. I've been struggling with weight. And that woman, like, she gets it. She was me. She lost 41 pounds. And she did it when she became surrendered, like, oh, my God, I want it. And the accountability comes the second they join your group, download your program, get on your email list, or buy your product. And that's when the relationship starts. But this is why cart abandonments go down, because they've self identified. When they go in, refunds go down because they've chosen. Rather than feeling duped or wrong. Results go up, Word of mouth marketing goes up, Testimonials go up, and you can't stop it because you are no longer the person that's feeding them the fish. You taught them how to fish. And they're associating that success with your brand and your company, which then makes it way more about the product. And it makes it about everything that you can do beyond that point to serve that customer.

So, Max, you said earlier that that opens up so many products that you could sell. Would you clarify that?

Well, so let's say we're selling a weight loss product.

So it's the easiest example.

Easy example, Right. If you just hit them with, you know, a great deal on a weight loss product, they take it and they don't get the results that they want. Right. You just have this negative association. If you nurture them along Tell them a story that they identify with. Allow them to opt into a group that they feel connected with and stuff like that. And you sell that weight loss product. That's just the first step. Right. There's so many other things that you can offer around that, you know, within the context of the group. You can go on and, you know, there's fitness products, maybe there's info products, maybe there's additional physical products around weight loss, getting into the gym, keto cookbooks, like, it doesn't matter. You're building a lifestyle, not selling them. A single point solution.

Yeah.

You're selling to a person rather than selling a product. So many people get addicted to selling more of the product when what they really need is more people or more connection with people.

Well, totally. Go ahead.

Yeah. So I want to go back to Hank real quick.

I love Hank. Let's say Hank's still here.

Hank is my man.

I've met a lot of Hanks in this space, and I have a feeling that Hank's sitting there saying, well, damn. I built this small sock puppet business just chasing sales. And my customer Avatar is a busy mom, and the only thing that I know about her is, is that she's between 35 and 50, she has 2.3 kids, and she probably lives in the Midwest.

I never understood how you have 0.3 kids, but.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But how do I go from that mindset to knowing who I'm selling to and, like, feeling confident that I can establish that relationship and chasing after that?

You ask the moms. I wish there was a more complicated answer, but I love the question because we chased like, okay, so who is it? What survey can I send out? How do I do it? No, ask her. Email her. Like, what can I do to support you today? I know that you love my socks, but what else do you need? Hey, why'd you buy my socks? Like, is there anything that they do for you that other ones don't? Or go to their social and pay attention to what they're posting about or why they're posting? Or check the hashtag that people are using for your product and go read the context of why they're sharing it. Is it empowering them to look more educated, to look more credible, to create drama or to be a pillar so their friends respect them and start figuring out what it is that these people are utilizing your product for in their life so you can then actually bridge that gap to have an association with the brand. Like, away travel didn't solve a travel problem at all. There Was not a luggage problem. There's never been a luggage problem. There's plenty of luggage away. Simplified and deconstructed all the mystique that comes with, like, Ramos and all this high class stuff, and stepped one step above where you buy the cheap bags that they break all the time. And they're like, we're gonna be right above it. We're gonna make a bag that has all the best stuff and we're gonna give you a lifetime warranty. I have seven away bags, and I've only ever bought two because every time the straps on the inside break, I call them, like, hey, the straps are up. They're like, we'll send you another one.

I'm like, all right, cool.

Do you want me to send it back? Like, no, don't worry about it. So then I go rubber cement the straps in myself. And then I have seven bags, and they love it, and it's amazing. And I swear to God, I've probably sold 20,000 away bags at this point. I give them to gifts to my customers, I give them to my team members. I tell people about them everywhere. But they didn't come in and just made a luggage. They came in and created basically an icon for somebody to self identify with.

Exactly. And, and the thing that I think about them is, you know something about someone as soon as you see them within a way bag totally on the.

Plane when they're pulling that out of.

The luggage thing, you know something about that person the second you see them.

And it bothers me because I used to be the only one, and now there are a lot more away bags on the market.

And so now I'm.

Now I'm spray painting my away bags, like writing my name on them. But it's a great question. I think one of the marketing principles that I focus around, like I teach on, is that everything you do, you understand, either have to be learning or serving. And if it doesn't fit into one of those buckets, you're wasting your time and your dollars because you're not doing anything except literally tooting your own horn or blowing hot air out there if it doesn't fit into one of those buckets. And so serving we're normally really good at. We're like, we make products, we post on social. We do all this. It's the learning part where we get a little disconnected and we like, well, we'll pay the big data form, we'll pay INI to give us all the data. We'll pay spins to give us all the data. And move. Like, you can waste the quarter of a million dollars, but I'll make a deal with you. Give me 100k and I'll give it to you in 10 minutes.

Yep.

You don't have to wait. You don't have to send a bucket survey. You have to do these massive things. You have to pay attention. Ask questions on social media. Go on to their social media, see what they're posting about. Why are they buying Hank's puppet hand puppets? What are they doing? Is it a mom with two kids? Is it a mom that's actually a preschool teacher and she's buying the puppets because she's going and giving them out to her under underprivileged students? I don't know. Is there an opportunity to be like, hey, I kept noticing your students haven't. Can I send you 20 sock puppets just to see if I can help empower the kids in your school? Like, all of those little pieces that you only get when you pay attention. And so I love Ryan, the way that you're the bridging between, like, the scaling and the granularity of it, because they inform each other. And I think it's a really awesome place to be. And it's like a dichotomy of, like, what's there, because the word scale people, like, completely up there going and whatever away is scaled. And if you tweet them, you get a response in like four minutes. If you send a customer service, you get a response is like an hour. They've raised like $150 million and they have more suitcases than I've ever seen in the world out there. And every bit of the entire process feels completely connected, no matter where you go. And they only went to where they wanted to be. Exactly. They don't have Facebook groups. They don't have all these different pages. They're not on Pinterest doing their thing. They're like, hit us up on Twitter, get us up on the Instagram, and like, we'll be there with you.

And I actually went to their physical retail pop up in New York, and that experience spreads seamlessly to a physical retail environment.

Totally. That everything is clean in there. So when you think. When I think about this and like, how does Hank do this?

I.

Or how does anybody do this? Well, the truth is, and I've seen this probably 200 times now, if you scale without the foundation, you will continually to get your building to the third floor before it crashes and you rebuild it again. And my question to you is, how many times you Want to get smacked in the mouth before you listen and learn the lesson. And for some of you, you're just going to do it all that you want, and you're going to be like me. And it's going to take you 10 years of stubbornness to get smacked in the face hard enough to change it. And then you learn and it'll forever be changed. Or you might take advice and, you know, learn the lesson. But if you try to build a tower on a faulty foundation, it will crash every single time.

And what is that foundation?

Relationships with your customers not predicated on their credit card.

That's a mic drop. I don't even want to ask a further question, except I feel really stupid because I don't know what away bags are. Oh, man.

Ryan.

Yeah, I feel really.

And can I be. This is a literally perfect opportunity for word of mouth advertising and brand recommendations. Because without you even knowing, Max and I both made that brand sound like.

The best thing in the world. Yeah. And I'm gonna go look it up later.

Thousand percent they've never paid me. I've paid full price for every bag, including the one I ordered last night.

Well, George, where can people find you, follow you, pay you lots of money. Where can they find you?

The easiest place to find me is whatever social platform you are on. I am probably on and I personally respond. So if you're on Instagram, hit me up at Civilized Caveman and send me a direct message and I will get back to you.

What is the handle?

Civilized Caveman? Okay, it's my Bruce Wayne, it's my face, my cooking brand, and then I'm Batman behind the scenes talking about marketing. But if you're on Instagram, that's the best place to get me. I respond to every single DM and I would love to answer your questions or do anything that I can.

Well, George, my biggest takeaway is just the reminder, the consistent reminder that everything comes back to relationships. Everything comes back to who? We so often try to figure out this system or figure out the top level piece that is gonna get us a result when we forget that it's all people. And behind every purchase, there is a person. And every person has their own needs, wants, desires. And it's that connection with other people, other human beings that ultimately gets us everything we want.

Totally. And the one thing, and I like to frame it for people. And, you know, you have a daughter, I have two kids. You have a mom. We all have somebody. I like to give the product test. I call it the grandmother test or the daughter test. I have a 13 year old daughter, has an iPhone, she's in the app store, she goes on Amazon, she buys stuff, she has all of that stuff. And so my question to all of my customers when I walk in the office is like, would you be okay if your daughter bought your product? Would you be okay if your wife went through your funnel? Would you be okay if your grandmother went through that funnel? And if the answer is no, take a look in the mirror.

Yep, Amen.

When I like that. Learning or serving? That's a nice way to kind of sum that up.

And what was that quote?

Was it all marketing should be learning or serving?

I said everything that you do should be learning or serving.

Got it.

And then marketing is transactional. Relationship building is transformational.

George, thanks for being here. Thanks for being here at the brand builder summit.

Thanks for having me.

Civilized caveman. So proud to be playing this great game of business with you.

Thank you, sir.

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