Uncomfortable Conversations About Race w/ Justus Murimi

Well, Justice, I. Usually when I'm feeling excited about a podcast, I'm like, hey, man, I'm so excited to talk to you. Yeah, I am not excited about this podcast.

I. I don't really know how to have this conversation. I don't really feel like I'm allowed to have this conversation. But you've given me permission to have this conversation.

Yes.

So the easiest way for me to start is. Is just ask why you've felt called to talk about race.

Yes. First, I think one of the reasons I started it was because of what you just shared is like, I don't feel like I'm allowed to have this conversation.

You feel like you're not allowed?

No. Is that. I feel like that's part of why I did it, is because a lot of my white friends don't feel like they have permission to have, like, to say what they actually think and what they actually feel. And I kind of. That, to me, bothers me because I feel like this has happened for another race, and for it to happen to any other race is just not right.

What has happened to.

In the African American community, there is a sense sometimes that they can't say certain things in the past. And so. And I've been aware of that. I grew up in the south, and I saw that even if it was true or not, there was a feeling of, I can't say what I think or I can't speak this here, here. And then for me to then see it with my white friends, I'm like, okay, something's. Something's off. And so I don't actually. This might be a surprise to you, but I don't like talking about race like it isn't.

That is a surprise.

Yes. I don't enjoy.

And it surprised me because you are. You have been. You've been very open about it.

Absolutely. I. To be honest, I get approached. And the reason I did this, a big part of the reason why I started talking about it, was because after George, Floyd, or after anything happens in the black community that makes the news, my white friends will reach out to me. Some of them crying, going, I don't know what to do. Like, I had two that called me and just said, I'm so sorry for everything that's happened. And I'm like, I don't know what you mean. It didn't happen to me. But they feel it in some way. And a lot of the conversations started like, I don't know how to talk about this. What do I do?

So, justice, this is an Honest question.

Yes.

Does that make it worse or do you appreciate that?

I think because I can see their heart. So I go, I see what you're doing. Your heart is good. This is awesome. And this is the only thing you know to do. I don't necessarily like them feeling pressure that they have to do something. I don't like that when.

That'S. That's unique. Because after George Floyd, it was like, hey, white people. Yeah, you better take a stand here. And it was like, I'm not really sure what to do with my hands.

Yes.

Well, if you're not putting them up in the air at a march, you're doing something wrong.

Yeah.

I felt like I was complicit or made to feel like I was complicit, which I think was the reason why so many white people pushed back.

Yes.

Which feels like it created a divide, and now I'm caught up in it. I don't even want to be caught up in it. Yes.

One of the most. So this might put people in a bad mood, but one of the things that I saw that really scared me was when I started seeing posts that said, silence is like the problem. Your silence is the problem. The fact that you're silenced. Where I actually come from a belief that I come from a belief that is like, listen and observe. Don't make hasty decisions. Actually observe. And so I never posted a black square. I never said anything for the longest time because I didn't know what was going on. I wanted to know what is actually happening. And I wanted to be able to go, this is actually bad, or people are confused, or I wanted to come to my own conclusion. And when I see people being pressured to speak, it creates a really bad atmosphere because they will speak.

Well said, justice.

And so, like you pressure someone to say something, they will say something. And I've seen that happen in so many situations, and it's. It's not always good, and it's not always what even the person that was pressuring them to speak wanted. And I think learning and observing is just as important and people being okay with you learning and observing in your own way.

And everyone has a megaphone now.

Yes.

So everyone can speak.

Yes.

And the people that we talk about are usually the nincompoops that have a terrible opinion that wouldn't have made the news 10 years ago. And now everybody is the news and everyone has.

Has an opinion. And you're. You're free to your opinion. I'm not here to control. But we have to understand when we when we pressure people to have a view and to have something to say, that we are in essence, telling someone. You haven't thought this out clearly, but say whatever's on your mind. And I don't know if we all want that. Yeah.

Amen.

Yeah, amen.

So just so we have context for this conversation, have you experienced forms of racism in your life?

Yeah, for sure. And.

I've had racism from white people, and I've had racism from black people. I think I had the unique experience of. I was from second grade.

Till, like, sixth grade. I lived in the Midwest, and my mom and dad were students in colleges, and my friends were Chinese, African, white. It was extremely diverse. I mean, one of my best friends in, like, first grade was not North Korean, South Korean. And so it was. I just had an extremely diverse, like, raising up until sixth grade and then sixth grade, we moved to Ruston, Louisiana. So we moved to the Deep South. And all of a sudden, I still remember my first day going to junior high, and white kids were hanging out on one side of the playground and black kids were hanging out on the other side. And it wasn't like this intentional segregation. Like, there was no thing there saying white people here, black people there. But I was in awe. I didn't know what to think. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know any of that. And I was thrown off. And so now I had this next experience, and that's where I spent from seventh grade until graduating college in Louisiana. In this, like, extreme polarity of races. And really, it wasn't just races, it was cultures. So I Even there, all of my friends were. A lot of my friends were international, but I had black friends, I had white friends, and I got made fun of more by black kids than I did by white kids. But then I go and I go into ministry after college, and all of the people I'm serving are low income African American kids. So I have this crazy worldview where I've gotten to see the heart of different cultures of different things. And thankfully, I love them all. Like, I just love them all. They're fascinating to me. I've gotten to. The church I was raised in was predominantly white white culture, but my brother and all his friends were black and black culture. So they were in our home and we were hanging out. And the youth I served, black culture. I got to see it, I got to be a part of it. I got to engage it. And so I love it. And there's beauty and there's ugliness in all of it. But because most people haven't seen what I've seen, I don't even feel comfortable speaking about it.

So because you've seen a more complete picture that other people haven't seen.

Yes.

And therefore your complete picture may seem jarring to those who only have a piece of the picture.

Yes. Or I'll even say, don't have a complete view of the picture. Feel guilty and shame and think they have to do something.

People who have only one perspective feel shame about the perspective they don't have.

Yes.

And now need to correct it.

Yes. And now. And not only that.

I can relate to that.

Yeah. Not only that, but there's also this additional pressure now. You need to go out and find other people that don't have that because they're probably racist.

Yeah.

And if you aren't helping them become not racist, that also is a problem. Yes.

So.

And I'm like, what is going on here? Like, the worst thing I can do in trying to love someone and help someone or believing that my worldview is right and wanting someone to come over my worldview. The worst thing you can do is one, bring them into a place where they feel pressured, guilt, and shame. Second, give them a microphone. Two, go and tell them to go and change other people.

So basically, exactly what we did is about the most unhealthy way.

Oh, it's so unhealthy. And I'm seeing all of my. A lot of my white friends, like, I'll have conversations with them, and they're going, oh, my gosh. I never saw it that way. And they're like, one guy went and took a sign out of his yard. He's like, I put this sign in my yard because I thought it was the sign that I needed to put in my yard. I thought I had to.

Thought I was doing the right thing.

I thought I was doing the right thing. He goes, now that you've kind of opened my eyes, I'm gonna go rip. I'm taking that sign out. I didn't know. And I goes, it's great. You don't have to take the sign out if you don't want. But I just wanted you to understand a more full picture of what's going on here.

Are you comfortable sharing a little bit about that full picture? Like, what. What are the pieces.

Yeah.

That the media at large does not see or share.

Yes. I think one of the things. It's not sexy like, the news is oftentimes understands how to get you to pay attention. That's our issue. More than the media is that, is that we like fear. Like if a headline says house on fire in X neighborhood in your town, you'll look at, look at it more than this man paid off all of his debt in X neighborhood in three years. You'll be like, good for him. The house is on fire. You're like, is that my neighborhood? Is that my house? Oh my gosh. So that's us. That's our psychology. That's the way that we, that we think. And they know how to play towards it to get you to open up. Whatever. The second thing is, the thing that a lot of us have to understand. There's one thing, there's empathy.

Empathy grows from wanting to understand another culture or another background of a person. And that takes time. I had to walk into young African American kids homes to meet their moms and for them to open up the fridge and there's nothing there. Open up the freezer and there's like a five year old steak just sitting there. There was no food, like there was just no food in the home. And for me to see it or hear enough stories about moms being beat or dads not being there or dad got shot to where I was like, ah, now my heart can break.

Yes.

I get that there's been poverty here for a long period of time. I get that there's been abuse here for a long period of time. My heart is actually really sad. That you're used to it. Yeah. That you've become accustomed to pain. That it's normal that all of you, one person can share that story and all of you can nod. That breaks my heart. And the fact that you can share it and there's no emotion makes me even more sad because you're numb to it.

Okay. That breaks my heart.

That lands right there.

That lands right.

You just saying that lands with me.

Yes.

There's. There's a different spirit of letting your heart break because you have empathy for someone.

Yes.

Then I would call it this self righteous behavior of I need to be the champion to undo my shame.

Yeah.

Or like it's a. I now realize that the.

Shame or the guilt that someone is speaking from is selfish.

Yes.

It's. I feel bad, I feel guilty, I feel implicit and I will speak out and I will judge others because I am ashamed. I will shame another because I am ashamed.

Yes.

That is very different. And that is not healing. That perpetuates the problem versus letting your heart break for those who are hurting.

That is. And that is enough. Like that, like let your heart break for someone that's hurting. And let me just add this. And this again, might just throw you off. Let your heart break for any person of any color, even if they're the same color as you. That's just good activity now. Like, it's just okay. It's okay that if your heart doesn't break for someone that's not the same as you, that's actually normal. Like, I can watch. I can watch an infomercial about kids in Africa or in some place that don't have anything, and I can change the channel and I'll just be like, oh, there it is again. I just don't have a heart for them yet.

But.

But someone else could watch that and go, I'm gonna go serve with the Peace Corps and helping these people in wherever. And good for them. That's awesome, too. We can both have hearts and affections and our hearts break for different things. And that's cool. And that's awesome. And the last thing I wanted. And I'm gonna share a really cool story. The last thing I want is for someone to have false empathy for the community I care about the most. Like that is.

Let me put it this way. If you are serving someone out of fear, you're trying to perform.

And if. Do you know what I mean? But if you really love someone, you're not really worried about how it comes off as much because you're just trying to love.

Damn, son.

It's just how. Oh, man, you're absolutely right. And I'm feeling personally convicted because there's like, there's. There's so much. I feel like I am supposed to do something about this. So I will donate to this cause or I will speak out about this. And I'm really doing it out of protection.

Yes.

Not out of true love.

Yes. And when you get it, like this is how cults get created, by the way, is that people are obey from a place of fear. And so they're just a part of the thing and they're just doing it to not be seen as a certain way or not to be perceived by others as being this thing. And that's just obedience. That's all it is. You're just going and obeying the thing. But what transforms communities and transforms people people is like sacrificial love. That's the reason we think Martin Luther King. Oh, my gosh. Sacrificial love. That's why we can think about Mother Teresa, even though she was pretty flawed. But I won't go there. But the Reason why I can say that name. And everyone's like, ah, yes. It's like sacrificial love. The reason we can look at Gandhi and everyone goes, they have equal admiration for him. Sacrificial love. Like, there's that element of like, I love you so much, I'm willing to sacrifice a piece of me.

So I. You said something kind of profound in there, which is. Was your statement about Mother Teresa. I don't know what you're referencing. I know I have friends who have their theories about Mother Teresa. I don't pay any attention to it. But.

What you're saying, you got to replace Mother Teresa with Martin Luther King and said, flawed human being.

Flawed.

And what the subtext what you're saying is is that all of us, yes, even if we're Mother Teresa, are flawed. But if you practice sacrificial love, that is enough.

That is enough. And for those of you that are just like, but I'm a stay at home mom and I like, what can I do? Sacrificial love for your children is enough. I just want to take off this weight of everyone becoming fighters against racism. Because then you're performing and you might not have the empathy in your heart towards that community or understand the culture enough. And if you still want to go there and serve there, awesome. Start just serving. Just start finding a way to serve and to love and ask questions, but to put on the weight of I'm now fighting for the cause right away, man, you will burn out. You will really burn out.

What I'm kind of taking away from this so far is letting your heart break or open in a. In a way of sacrificial love and letting that flow wherever.

Yes.

It finds a home.

Yes.

Is how we heal our divide.

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

And if it. And if it doesn't flow to the community that other people are flowing to, it doesn't matter.

Right?

Matters that that love is flowing through you.

Yes.

Yes.

It's so powerful.

Mic drop.

Yes. 100%. All of the people we just mentioned that we would all say sacrificial love. Like, Gandhi didn't necessarily care about African Americans. Like, he changed. Like, neither did Mother Teresa. But guess who saw Gandhi and got to sit with him and learn from him? Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King's mentors. And they brought that back to Martin Luther King. And Martin Luther King went forward. Like, Martin Luther King was not, like, always thinking non violence. That idea of a non violence protest was brought to him by his mentors who got to be with Gandhi. So it was like that sacrificial love influenced people of other communities that could come in and serve. So that pressure that I'm seeing on so many of the people that I love, I'm just going, it's not gonna get you the result that I think you want. And you're not going to feel good about it. You're just going to feel like you did a job and no one wants another job. Like, I think we all have enough jobs. And you don't want. Like, you want to feel.

You want to feel free. You want to feel free. And many of us want to feel free. And whenever we put a yoke on each other, that isn't meant. That doesn't feel right to us. We're not free. We just become slaves to the new movement. And I'm not calling out Black Lives Matter. I'm not calling out anyone, whatever movement. Is there any movement you join out of fear, it is now a job of yours which probably doesn't feel right for you.

And just to complete that point, I'm thinking about how that has also played out in the vaccine debate. Because there are people who are getting the vaccine out of fear, and there are people who are not getting the vaccine out of fear.

Yes.

And in both cases, those two camps are speaking very loudly to try and recruit the other side 100% and cast stones to the other side 100%. But they are still operating in fear.

Still fear. It's the same thing. It works in anything. It goes to any place we can see. Fear just creates performance every single time. I was gonna write an email about this. I still am, but it's like what happens when I yell at my kids. I have three young boys, and when I yell at them, they do exactly what I want. But they didn't do it from a place of responsibility or joy or just from doing the right thing. They do it because dad yelled at them. So they're performing for me. So the only thing that keeps them doing that thing is me yelling. But when they have a moment where dad gets to say, hey, guys, it actually hurts when I have to ask you to do things over and over again. And I want you guys to grow up to be really responsible men. And so I need you to do this on a more regular basis. And this really helps Daddy do what he wants to do, then they're going, ah, I see how my actions affect someone that I love. I want to do the right thing. I need to do the right thing. And, like, that changes everything, because now Their heart is more opened to being like, to empathize with dad, empathize with mom, and they're learning to empathize. So I want to share, like, what.

This looks like practically, please.

So when I was a youth pastor and this is when I had like single parent, low income kids, almost all of them African American, I noticed that a lot of them were in school and they were being told to go to college and which I have mixed feelings about. But the one thing I knew they didn't know was how a business works. And I wanted them to know that you can create a business and it can do some, like, amazing things for you. So I was like, I'm going to start a lawn care company. I'm going to hire them. So the crazy thing was I didn't have the money for anything. I didn't have a truck, I didn't have a trailer, I didn't have any lawn care equipment. But I was like, man, I prayed about it and I was like, man, I really, I really feel like, I really felt like it was from God. Like I'm supposed to start this lawn care business. So I go and talk to a white wealthier friend of mine who owned his own business and he said, I don't know what to do about this, but man, and you need to talk to this other business owner. And this guy owned this massive irrigation company in Dallas. Didn't know him. He goes, I don't know. The guy that I talked to is like, I don't know him that well, but I just feel like you're supposed to talk to him. So I go talk to him. He goes, so this is a nonprofit? I go, no, it's a business. He goes, I'm going to give you some equipment, like commercial grade equipment, like $4,500 worth of commercial grade equipment. He just gave. We got cash from another business owner for a truck like Toyota Tundra 2008. Amazing truck. Another guy donated a trailer who was another business owner donated the trailer. Okay. None of these people ever really had interactions with my young kids, but let me tell you how much they impacted these kids lives. For two summers we mowed lawns and I got to spend time with these kids that I would not trade for any, anything. Like I'm talking top line, like toro mowers. Like, these were like top grade, commercial grade equipment. I still have some of them. I got to mow lawns with these kids for summer because these business guys decided to have empathy in their heart towards me and they changed the culture of These kids and these kids were able to start business like they got to understand business so that if they chose they could start businesses for themselves. For me I was like, especially for those listening to this capitalist whoever, like they brought justice to a place. I was able to pay these kids. And the only reason I was able to do it was because not only these business owners like donate, like there was no tax incentive for this. I was a for profit business. They just gave. The only reason they could give is because they had money to give. Right. Like they gave me equipment.

And you didn't ask them for this?

No, I just said here's what I'm doing. I was told to come and talk to you, here's my vision. And they gave to it. Not only that, but one of them actually told the people in the community that I was in that had like real like that were high wealth individuals. Hey, let these kids mow your lawns. So our first lawns that we mo, that we mowed for a good price. Like it wasn't like we did cheap work. Like we, it was a monthly to mow your lawn every week. Those people came from these white business owners that were like, let these kids do it man. This is a good cause. These are good people. Like we care about these kids. They did so much by just being themselves, just being empathetic. They changed these kids lives. They changed my life for two summers and it was incredible.

Wouldn't trade, they didn't seek out how do I make a difference? And they were empathetic to the opportunity that came to them. And what's what I'm processing as you're saying this is, I think about an entrepreneur who comes to me with a mission in mind. And I mean we work together. Just as you hear me remind entrepreneurs every day it's about the person, not the product.

Yes.

And when an entrepreneur comes to me and says I'm building this thing for this group of people because they have this problem, my heart and my, my wallet want to go right to them. I want to buy their products, I want to invest in their company, I want to support them, I want to cheer for them.

Yes.

When an entrepreneur comes to me and says I found this financial opportunity to do X, I in my head will think of the logic of it and decide if I will do it or not. But I never feel compelled to it unless I am worried about money.

Yeah.

And then I will, then I will be like aha. A way to solve my problem.

Yes.

So and so I'm taking from what you're saying is I truly believe that people at their core are good and giving and want to do well. When they're in a place of fear, they become assholes. Yes, they start inflicting fear because they are afraid 100%. But.

When someone is open with them, when someone has a genuine need without the fear attached to it, people genuinely want to support it. And we did not see that in the year 2020.

No, no, we saw, we saw the opposite of it. And it's all like.

It'S what you're saying, but it is all this place of people are scared. The reason why 2020 was like so hard was. I mean, there's a million reasons why, but at the end of it, like, we were alone and. But we were blasted with fear from social media, from the news, and all we had was time to consume all of this stuff, which put us in a place of fear. So then a tragedy happens and a whole bunch of people who have time and hurt and pain go into a place of movement and we need change. And there was truth in a lot of what they're saying, like there needs to be some change. Yes.

But we were all stirred up at our own junk.

Oh, we were all stirred up. Even I was. It took everything from me to just not say anything because I was going, this. Something doesn't feel right. I don't know what it is and I don't know how to think about it. I don't even know what to say. So I need time. And I didn't start this email that I'm broadcasting out until like three weeks ago because I finally saw it. Like I finally was like, ah, this is what's going on. So it took me a year. It took me a year. And I come from a place of, I think, having more holistic view of what's going on in race than the average person. And it took me a year to figure out what I actually thought about the situation, which is wild.

How did you react during that time? What, what was, what was your experience as somebody who has a, a well rounded view about this?

I went from confused to angry to.

There are moments where I was scared.

Mostly it was anger. And one of the things that I've always known was I've known for a while since getting into ministries. Like anger is a secondary emotion and there's two underlying emotions beneath it, which is fear and sadness. And fear has to do with the future. Something bad is going to happen. Sadness has to do with the past. I'm mourning something that has happened. So I was angry, but I knew underneath it there were, like, some underlying emotions. And I knew the number one thing that I was dealing with was fear. I was afraid that we were creating the second. Like, I was afraid that our hurt was going to turn to vengeance, which was going to create a new enemy. And that new enemy was the very person that would. Could actually help heal the hurt that we were feeling. And so instead of coming into relationship, we were coming into our tribes.

Just as I. I've never said this out loud to anyone, but there was a period there where, because I'm an affluent white male, I every night went to bed thinking about what happens if a mob comes to my house. Yep. Which seems. That is like the ultimate. Just catastrophizing.

Yes. It.

Right.

Yeah.

But I know I'm not the only one. Like, there's a reason why a lot of my wealthy friends bought ranches outside of Austin.

Yep.

And built gates.

Yep. Right.

Because there's a fear that, like, there's a march coming to your house because you're successful.

Yes. And I can't say anything about this because the only. The way it was set up was this. This thing entered and it scared the hell out of me, which was the word privilege. It that. That word scared me because for the long. Because I. For the longest time was like, who doesn't want that? But it feels like it has a negative connotation. It's become an insult. Whereas before in the church, we just call it, you're blessed. And it was. It's like a really good thing. We're all trying to become more blessed. Like, I want more of God's blessing on my life. Like, that is very common. And who doesn't want that? But when you take a good thing and you turn. Turn it to this thing that's negative, and then you attach it to a person.

That'S so dangerous, because as soon as it becomes a negative thing, it makes it that much harder for me to attain it.

So if I look at a fluent white person and I say he's so privileged mentally, that puts in my mind a barrier to reaching privilege for myself.

So who are the very people that can actually help me learn to become privileged? The very people that we're demonizing, which for me, if I look at the black community, what is the one thing that would alleviate a lot of the pain that we're seeing is that they would all become really privileged.

That would. That would help so much. It wouldn't heal every wound, but so many things that I have seen Happen to the black community, happen because of poverty. And a lot of it happens for a lot of reasons. And I'm not here to debate what reasons are what. But man, my heart. When I look at my young African American men, I see it as like a visceral part of me to open up a doorway for them to become privileged justice.

One of the best selling books of 2020 was how to be Anti Racist by Ibram Kendi. I think.

Yeah.

And he in that book says to be pro capitalist is to be racist and to be racist is to be capitalist. Or something like that.

Sure.

How do you respond to that?

I would say if, if, how do I respond to that?

I hope he changes his mind and I hope I get to be a part of changing his mind. And I hope I get the opportunity to love him. And I would imagine that he came to that belief from a set of experiences and observations that he's seen to people that probably involve greed.

And greed is a part of every.

Governmental construct that there is. Like it's a part of socialism, it's a part of capitalism. It's in there because people are in there and people are messy.

But I wish I could share the circumstances where I've seen unbelievably pro capitalist people be some of the most generous people I've ever experienced towards African American young men. And they've done it to me. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for white men. Pro capitalist white men who saw something in me that I couldn't even see in myself and decided to help me get businesses off the ground. I mean, full disclosure, my, my wife is, is white and her parents did not want us to get married. The people that came to my, that linked arms with me were, were all white. There was one guy that was half Mexican, six, eight. That's another story. But they were all white. And they didn't come in and point a finger at her parents. They came in and prayed with me. They came in and said, how can we help? They paid for the flowers, they paid for the building that we got married in. They paid for her wedding dress. They paid like I am the testament of white men. Like, the reason I'm here is because of white men. The reason where I'm at is because of white men. My dad had a mission organization and his biggest donors that helped him plant churches and water wells in the desert parts of Kenya were white men and women. So these were capitalists. These were people that owned financial firms and trucking companies that gave to him freely so that we could have dinner on our table and so that people could have water that don't have water. So I have a biased view, but I think I have a pretty holistic view. So when I hear that phrase, I go, ah, there's a story. He has a story. And that story involves probably some trauma. And he needs more stories. And I would love to share more stories with them.

You made a post or sent an email out that.

That exposed the lack of. The lack of therapy we had in 2020. You talking about you processing through counseling and through therapy some of your trauma of what had happened to you when you were younger and you now being in a healthy place.

Of far less judgment.

Yes.

Than may have been underneath the surface before. You process that.

Yeah.

And how 2020 exposed a lot of that trauma.

Oh, yeah.

Without the ability to go see a therapist.

Yes. Yes.

Would you expound on that?

Yeah. So for, like, there was a time when my wife and I went to marriage counseling and there wasn't anything going wrong, but my boss, who was also my pastor, said, hey, you guys should just go for like a checkup. So we're like, okay, we'll go. And we go to this group counseling retreat and the couples that are in there are literally going through like, their marriages are on the verge. Like, anything that you can think of that could cause someone to want to separate has happened to these people. And they're there on, like a last ditch effort. They still love each other, but they're just like, we've been through too much and we're there. And we're like, well, we're here for a checkup. So we feel out of place. But there's an exercise that they do, and I forget the name of it, but essentially you rate the relationships, the direct relationship, closest relationships that you have, and you put like a, you know, a squiggly line if it's like, not a healthy relationship, a straight line if it's supposed to be. And there's like another one. And so we were drawing this all out, but then I was brought to this moment of trauma in my life, which was I was all alone. And then we went and we were like, but who was there? And I remember I had this one friend that was there that, like, basically rescued me in this moment of, like, really aloneness. And I just broke down. Like, I just. Was just a mess, like, sobbing. The other people. Actually, like, part of the exercise is like, everyone that was in the room except for your spouse leaves. So it was just me and My spouse looking at this, this whiteboard and looking at this relationship, I'm. I'm tearing, I'm. I'm crying. And I just, I thought about that moment and how it took, you know, my pastor telling me to go. It took the finances to get that retreat, which people donate money for us to be able to go. It took two professional therapists, licensed therapists. It took a group of other people just listening. It took my wife comforting me to deal with this hurt. Fast forward to the George Floyd incident, and that is that incident of trauma that reminded a lot of the black community of other trauma that they had experienced, whether racist or not racist. And they take to the streets and they're hurt. And I saw it, and I'm like, I could see the hurt in their eyes. And they're sharing their stories of where they've experienced trauma and how much this just poked at it. And their hearts are exploding, like, for everyone to see. But the difference was they didn't have a spouse there rubbing their back while they're tearing up. They didn't have trained therapists. They just had hurt. That's all they had. And I get it. But the part that gets dangerous is when, hey, we're hurt. But then somewhere in the place, there's like, oh, but also, the reason why we're hurt is because of the white man. And that creation of an enemy is really dangerous. And the most dangerous part of it is there is no face or name. It's just the white man. So it's just vague enough to point a finger, but not clear enough to be, like, really direct. So all you have and what's really dangerous is if you can point your finger at a system or just a group of people that don't really have a face or name other than white men. So you don't ever have to stop hating them. There's no ever. You don't know if they're really the enemy and there's no really defeating them because they will continue to exist. Yes.

So you call it like, 20 years ago it was just terrorists.

Yes. Yes.

You can just fight terrorism and have an endless war.

Yes.

And today you can blame systemic racism.

Yes.

And have an endless war against racism.

Yes. Endless. That is a perfect example. It just goes on and on because guess what? Terrorism isn't going to stop because anyone can just become a terrorist. There was like a white guy that shot up a church. He was a domestic terrorist. How do you stop that young guy that just decides one day to go shoot up a church? You can't he's just gonna decide to do it.

You have to stop it before it gets there.

Exactly.

And you definitely don't do it by creating groups.

Yes.

But you can do it by letting your heart break for people who are hurt.

Exactly. And that for me is the power of love. And people don't like to go in this direction because it's hard.

Uh huh. It. Well, it makes you go internal. It makes you see why you are angry.

Yes.

Why you are resentful.

Yes.

Why you are scared.

Yes.

Has very. The only thing that's happening external to you is the triggers.

Oh man.

That poker wounds.

Oh my gosh. It's. It. I'm telling you, the hardest thing I did was learning to love. That was the hardest thing. When you can, and this is like the test when you can look at the people that have hurt you the most and say that you love them and you actually want the best for them, it's not saying remove justice, not me, but like ice justice. But when you can look at the people that have hurt you the most and say, I love you, doesn't mean I forget what you've done, but I love you and I actually want some sort of a blessing for you. And I don't know what that looks like. And I'm not sitting here telling you what it looks like, but that's when you know, like, my heart's in a good place of love. And that's what it, that's what it. It's hard, but that's what it takes. Think about Martin Luther King sitting with people that are telling him he's lesser than and having the patience to help them understand. That's love. That is real love. You think about the Germans during World War II who took and hid Jews.

That's they're putting their life at risk. That is like sacrificial love. But it's hard because you have to look at your own flaws. And it brings you to a place of like, man, who am I? Yeah, man, I. I'm just as messed up as the next guy. I. It wasn't hard for this person to end up in this way. And it could happen to me. Being a pastor long enough, I saw enough people.

Be unfaithful to their spouse that I got to move from anger to going, that could be me.

Then you start to have empathy for them. Then you ask them what happened. Then you hear their whole story. And usually the person that cheated on their, on their husband or their wife were abused or traumatized as a kid and you Go, oh my gosh, I get it. Then your heart breaks. Then you go, I'm so sorry. Then you're not even thinking about that they cheated on their spouse. You're not even thinking about it. You're just, you're just thinking you as like a six year old girl seeing your parents go through divorce and you just go, oh. Or you seeing that like a 10 year old girl and going, you know, I got abused. And you're going, ah, no wonder, no wonder. And it takes a lifetime to get there. And I'm not telling everyone in here like now go talk with people and find out all their hurts and their pains. I hope I'm giving you the peace to go. I'm just going to love where I'm at. I'm just going to learn to love where I'm at. I'm going to try and understand where I'm at. I don't want you to be the next freedom fighter, especially not right away.

I'm not like, I'm not.

But I do want to like encourage you to like start loving the people right in front of you. And I think that'll help a lot.

Just as I'd love to have a part two about exactly that.

Nice.

So let's do that. In the meantime, your newsletter is incredible.

Thanks.

So where do people find it?

Okay, you can go to how to Kill a black man dot com.

Oh gosh.

Or you can go to go.justicemarimi.com youm.

Might get retargeted with some weird stuff.

I'm probably not allowed to make that joke. Yeah, how to Kill a Black man dot com.

Yeah, like have fun telling your friends about that in a public space. I found this new email newsletter. You got to go to it. What is it? How to Kill a Black Man. And the reason it's called that is because I see a lot of what we're trying to do is actually killing the black community more than it's helping. And so I just want to help people get a holistic view.

I love you, buddy.

I love you, man.

Thank you for, thank you for working with me. Yeah, I love every day with you.

Thanks, man. Same here.

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