How Versatility Made Her the Scientist Every Team Wants | with Heer Shah, Gene Therapy Scientist

Karina I'm Karina Klingman, scientist turned CEO of a talent strategy consulting firm. I've helped over 85 biotechs hire and develop thousands of amazing employees so I know what works and what doesn't work when it comes to landing a job and then excelling in it. I created the Biotech Career Coach Podcast to give you simple, actionable, step by step strategies to help you land your dream biotech job then move up the career ladder. If you are exploring career paths, looking to learn about biotech, or simply striving to be the type of person who makes an impact and gets promoted, your

in the right place. Today we are talking with Hur Shaw and she is a scientist in Cell and Gene therapy at Insoma, which is one of my clients and she has over seven years of diverse biotech experience across vaccines, AAV, lentiviral vectors, VLPs, LNPs, all types of cell and gene therapy delivery platforms. Her work focuses on engineering synthetic viral vectors and next generation gene editing technologies for precision thera therapies like sickle cell disease and immuno oncology. Here holds a Master's degree in Biotechnology from Northeastern University, which is one of my favorite universities, and she was in the co op program which launched her biotech journey through hands on roles at Merck Intellia Therapeutics and Ring Therapeutics and Asana Biotechnology, which again were many companies that my team worked directly on hiring for. So we're very familiar with this diverse technology and we're really excited to talk to here about all of the things that she's done and how she got here. So thank you so for being here today with us. We so appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me, Karina. It's such a great opportunity.

Absolutely. So first of all, just tell me a little bit about what drew you to biotech in the first place.

I was really fascinated by biology growing up. Science was my favorite subject in school and so naturally when it came to undergrad choices I really wanted to explore more of biology and then really asking the question of like how are drugs made? How we treat patients.

So like I said earlier, Northeastern is one of my favorite programs. Honestly, such such a great program. We launched so many great biotech folks from this program. But what drew you to Northeastern specifically?

Choosing Northeastern for my Master's program was very intentional for me. There are a couple of reasons. One was the co op program. Right. I was very clear from the start that I want to be able to create something that has real world implications that has impact on Patients and the co op program was like, right fit for me to get exposure in industry. The second was understanding the alumni career path. I talked to a lot of people before joining the program and what career journeys they had, how did they get where they are today? The third I would say was the student organizations like gabs, It's a graduate association of biotechnology students. So I was part of that. That program really taught me a lot about leadership skills and a sense of community and how people work together. And the fourth, which was I think the most important for me is really like understanding different career pathways and how you can basically navigate through these.

I think all of those are great reasons and the co op program is awesome. You really maximized your experience there. I think you did more co ops than you technically have to do to graduate, if I'm not mistaken. But tell me about some of those co ops and how that really kind of set you up for your career.

I was in Boston, which is the biotech hub, and that's why I ended up doing more co ops than I have to. My long term goal was to be in industry. And so the co op program helped me understand that, you know, you're not working in a silo. There are like multiple groups and people who are working with you and teams and how something that you do or experiment you do has an implication later on downstream. Right. So I think the exposure was something that I always value from a co op program. And also it again exposed me to multiple career paths like what I want to do and what I understand is not the only option. I could have a lot different options when I'm in the industry. I think I wasn't aware about it before joining Northeastern, so I think having that set up in early career was very much helpful for me.

You did a co op at Merck, which is a huge company, and then you went sort of into the smaller cell and gene therapy companies. How was that formative for you? What was that like?

Just understanding how a small biotech works and how a bigger biotech works. And it really gave me a perspective that what is the right fit for me, like which type of company, what size of team, what kind of work is really good fit for me. And I think that is what all those experience helped me understand.

You also have worked across a lot of different types of cell and gene therapy, which makes you really marketable. And in this, this current climate, there's a lot of different companies doing a lot of different things. And I can tell you from the recruiting standpoint, I often have hiring managers who are looking for really specific expertise with certain types of delivery modalities or you know, different therapeutic indications. So how has that been working across all of these different modalities? And how do you feel that that set you up for your current career?

My first job was at Intellia Therapeutics and that was basically my first exposure to cell and gene therapy space. And I have been fortunate to be in that space all along. What I really understood was that for you to gene edit anything, you need to have a right delivery vehicle that will deliver your cargo to a specific cell types. And I find that delivery space very interesting, very fascinating to me. And that's how I think intentionally when I worked at different companies, I've made sure that I get the skills that I need to build like a long term career again. One other thing that I, I feel like people kind of overlooked is the basic skills like the cell culture, the mall biotechnology, the analytical techniques, all of these are very basic techniques. The applications are different when you move from one modality. But I think just having, making sure that your lab techniques so you understand it, why you do it, that was really the base of my, my jobs. Over the tongue.

I just want to talk about that for a minute because a lot of folks in our career development community worry that maybe they've specialized or over specialized in a place and that they can't therefore be super marketable in a different area. But what you're seeming to be saying is that there are some transferable skills that kind of span those different types of roles. So you have had success moving between different companies and applying these transferable skills. How did you market that? How did you talk about that when you were talking about the basic skills versus the specialized skills early on?

What I've understood working in different companies is that there are two types of people. One is people who are really specialized and who have like a very niche background. They kind of worked on a similar type of let's say assays or techniques and they are really the subject matter expert on that. The other set of people are the integrators who take a holistic view of how the specializations and how all of this pieces will fit in together. For me I've always gravitated to the second. And so when I talk to a hiring manager, when I talk to a panel, I always focus on that. Then my strength is really looking at the 360 view of a program. Not just doing my own work, but also understanding how that implicates downstream. Just like CMC Clinical and I think a lot of time that perspective is really valued, especially in the time when you have to move in a fast paced environment. You need to make decisions quickly. I think that has really helped me and that's how I like to talk about my strengths.

Yeah, that's really good advice. I like that a lot. Have you ever landed a role where you didn't check every single box on a job description?

I would think all of them. Yeah.

Tell us about that.

Because I feel like if, if I'm checking every box on that job description that means for me there's no room for growth and development. And I'm a person who likes to like continue learn something new. And so I think most of the time my focus is just knowing that do I know the basics and if yes, I'll apply. Applications don't cost money, so it just cost a little bit of time. So don't self eliminate. It's really the job of recruiters, HR hiring manager. So you just go ahead and apply.

Yeah, I love that. I always tell people a job description is just a wish list. We are not looking for someone who checks every single box. Often the job description's well written. Not all of them are, but some of them will specifically say what the non negotiable things are and then what the nice to haves are. And those nice to haves are exactly that nice to have, but it's not actually nice to have all of them. I can't tell you how often I speak to a hiring manager and they describe their perfect unicorn candidate and they have all of these amazing skills and then I sort of say, okay, great, if we found someone who did all of these things, what is the growth for them in this role? What can we put into this job description to entice somebody that they're going to be able to see career development and they can't answer that question. So I, I have to back them off often and say, you know, what if this was a nice to have? Or what if these five things were nice to haves that we know internally? Those are areas that we're happy to train on. We have a great team who already knows how to do this and we can teach them and that gives people that growth. Because it's really expensive to hire people. We do not see a positive ROI on a hire unless somebody stays for a year and a half. So I really want somebody to stay for a year and a half. It's expensive to hire somebody not just because recruiting is expensive, but the time it takes to get up to speed is expensive. The time that we need to train somebody or we need to set up new projects for them, that's expensive. So we want to keep somebody for at least a year and a half. And if you can do everything on day one, you're probably not staying for a year and a half.

You really touched that point where, like, you know what hiring managers are looking for. And over the years, I've had a lot of experience interviewing and with the hiring managers, with the panels, and I think more so a lot of times, even if you don't check all the boxes, if you have the right mindset, that is what they're looking for. I think I have observed that a lot of time the behavior questions are on the higher end rather than just technical or scientific questions. Can you navigate a conflict? How do you think about the data? Are you flexible enough? Do I want to work with you? That is what the team and the hiring manager is really looking for. And for that, you have to apply. You have to get in the door to do that interview. So I think that's the one thing that is admit that you have to check all the boxes.

Yeah, a hundred percent. We hire a person, not a piece of paper at the end of the day. So I really, really encourage people to apply. We're doing an application challenge right now in the community, and I'm challenging people to apply for 10 jobs a week for four weeks. And that's hard for people because a lot of people are like, well, I can't find enough jobs I'm qualified for. But that's my challenge to them is no, find something you're excited about and then just apply for it. You know, let's just see where this goes that really might end up being successful. Something you never thought you were qualified to apply for. That might be your next dream job.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think I have applied to many positions that I, I, I felt that I'm underqualified or. But I understood the basic science. And if, if that's a yes, if I like the company's mission, I just go ahead and apply.

Good for you. I love that. Keep doing that, but not don't leave in soma because in the future, should you ever need a job, that is the right attitude, love it. So give us just a day in the life. Like, what's the typical day to day of what you're doing now?

My work at Ensoma is very much mix of lab and also the strategic aspect of just the program. And I Have like every single project that I support has been cross functional or collaboration in some sort of way. So it's like designing an experiment, trying to be efficient with designing an experiment, which means that you're not just answering one question, but you're trying to answer multiple questions. And then also working with a lot of teams like cmc. The research lead to making sure that what I do has an implication downstream. But also if I can proactively change anything right now, that would be like very helpful. And I think just. I think a lot of time is spent just looking at the data and understanding the science and presenting your data, which. Which is surprising. That's basically my take today.

What part of your job might surprise somebody who's sort of outside looking in.

How much time we spend thinking rather than pipetting how often the work is collaborative, that you need alignment on the day to day that you are doing. But also just understanding the integration in the broader project strategy or perspective in terms of goals and milestone. I think that is something that people tend to overlook a lot of time. But that is, that is definitely something that surprises people.

What in your day to day is harder than you expected when you joined?

The really hard, hard part is like managing the timeline. I think the work that we do has a lot of impact. Like once you have a drug candidate and it moves to a drug development stage and then it a patient gets treated with it, I think the journey is very fulfilling. But the timelines from your start to the end is so long that sometimes being motivated and energized to do the work every single day, that is hard. I think it takes a lot of intentional effort and resilience.

How do you keep that motivation?

I want to create something that is impactful to patients, that is impactful not just for patients, but their families. I have been fortunate enough to see that translation from like earlier drug candidate stage to actually it being in the clinic and then during the launch. Right. So for me it's just I have to take a step back and remind myself that that is the journey and you'll get there, but just be motivated enough.

Yeah. And SOMA just recently dosed their first patient, which is a huge milestone. And I started working with Insoma shortly before we filed the ind. But yeah, these timelines are long. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And so I love keeping close to the patients. I think that that's the thing that personally motivates me. I love meeting patients just knowing that there are actual human beings on the other side of this. And that you're not just in the lab pipetting for fun. It's more than that. So how did being an international scientist shape how you planned your career personally,

being an international scientist, it required a lot of planning intentionally, I would say, early on. Visa consideration has always been a part of my career journey. So whenever I take a job or apply for a position, there's always the visa aspect of it, which I have to consider. What has helped me is just talking to employers proactively, talking to people who have been in the same journey as you, talking to attorneys who can basically give you options. I think that has really helped me plan carefully along the line.

Did you speak to an attorney outside of your employers? Like, did you ever consult an attorney personally?

Yes, I have. I basically needed more advice on how I should approach this, and we can probably dive into that, but, like, there's not many options that you would know that exist for you. And so I think getting a consultation from an experienced attorney would definitely help.

Yeah, yeah. That's been my experience too. There's the canonical pathway for somebody in a scientific discipline and a stem discipline. That's the H1B pathway. And right now we're seeing that that's pretty difficult. It's always been difficult because it's always been a lottery system. I am not an attorney, but I've spent a lot of time on the phone with attorneys. That's basically part of my job. So tell me about what surprised you the most when you got into biotech and you were trying to navigate this system that we have here in the

US I think I was more surprised about how many options there are regarding the pathways, the work authorization that you can take. And as you said, like having a bachelor's, having a master's. So there's a set pathway that people have always taken or which is more so approached even from the employer perspective. But I think there are more options that are available, especially if your work is around national interest, if you are supporting or treating a larger US Patient population. Again, as I said, you would talk to people who have already been in the same pack or an experienced attorney.

Yeah. Excellent. What is the national interest waiver and how did you end up learning about it?

So I learned about this from a mentor of mine who has been in the same career path, but also who also has been navigating visas along the line. National interest waiver is a path to getting a green card or a permanent work authorization in the US it has two aspects of it. One is, does your work aligns with US national priorities. And the second is if you're saying that your project is a national importance, are you the person who's qualified to do that or there are more people out there. So you really have to kind of justify those two points. And it's a really special category which I did not know about. But I'm thankful, I'm thankful for the people who introduced me to this pathway.

It's a really fascinating pathway to that green card. And we on the talent side and on the HR side, we have to help with a little bit more justification because not only is there your application, but also the company has to also justify that what we're doing is of national interest, which is just a little bit more work. But honestly, it's a really, really good pathway. And I would argue, and maybe I'm biased because I just love biotech, but I would argue that anything in the biotech space is of national interest. I think the work we're doing here in cell and gene therapy especially, we want to cure really tough diseases. And cell and gene therapy is a cure. It's not, you know, we're looking to actually fix these diseases, not just medicate people for the rest of their lives. I think that's of tremendous national interest, global interest too.

I think it's the lack of awareness around this visa types and just understanding the basics of these different paths. I think a little bit of proactively planning with your employer would definitely help.

Absolutely. Yeah, we do a lot of planning around that. When we're thinking about all of the folks that we're applying for, what advice would you maybe give some international students who are just setting out on this journey, maybe they've just started at Northeastern and they're really, really able to plan long term for this.

Seek a guidance regardless of where you are at which stage, even if you are a student who's planning to work in the industry, like two years after, I would say seek guidance from immigration attorney because they are really the people who can help you understand this process. And also if you qualify for any of these different options. The second is sometimes when we look at one or two reels online, we would look at those criteria and self eliminate ourselves saying, oh, I do not have any of this. Which I think is probably not a bright way to approach visa situation. I think you have to be really networking with people who have done this before. And then your employer, I think if you plan with your employer, because those are the people who have to be interested in hiring you, interested in your skill set. So I think planning with them would be my advice. And plan ahead because it is a very long process and the timelines are so long. It is a time consuming effort.

That's great advice. Plan way ahead and it's going to take just a little longer or maybe a lot longer than you think it might at the outset the journey. Okay, I have a lightning round for you. I love lightning round questions. So just quick answers, whatever comes to mind. What is the best career decision you ever made?

Choosing companies where learning and growth were prioritized rather than the titles. I think that has really accelerated my growth and really broadened my perspective.

Oh, I love that. Really good answer. What is one thing you wish you'd known two years ago?

How many options exist in terms of visa pathways? And how can I really, in terms of like career development, how can I really build my skills and explore something that really energizes me every day?

If you could go back and tell your graduate school self one thing, what would it be?

Tell your story sooner. People cannot advocate for you if they don't know your story. What drives you? What is your passion? A lot of time I think that is not reflective on your resume. So go talk to people, tell your story. That is one of the advice I got from my mentor and I think I won't pass that on to other people as well.

That's great advice. We really bang the networking drum in our career development community because that's really, really important. I can't, I can't say that loudly enough. So thank you for reinforcing that. Network yourself and tell your story. Love it. What is one skill you're really grateful you have that has helped you get ahead in your career?

Systematic thinking, learning, the holistic approach of the work that I do, and keeping the big picture in mind. I think that has really helped me accelerate my growth.

Yeah, I would help anyone accelerate their growth. That's a great answer. I love that. That was so much fun. Thank you so much for your time and your attention to this. It's invaluable to people coming after you who are just starting out in their careers. You know, I always say, find a mentor that's not 20 steps ahead. Find someone who's like three or four steps ahead because that person has recently gone through what you're going through and has a lot of wisdom in the current market, the current way to navigate jobs and all of that. So thank you because I'm sure some folks will reach out to you and, you know, want to link in with you and follow your progress.

Thank you so much. I'm happy to connect with all of them. And thank you so much for having me. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to tell my story. As I said, tell your story right. And I think a lot of times people don't really get the platform to share their story. So thank you for giving me the platform. And it's always fun working with you and chatting with you. So thank you so much.

Oh, it's my pleasure. We'll see you soon.

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