EP #15 The Importance of Sleep for Creatives w/ Steve Aoki

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That's the thing that I've learned through all this is like as my journey and my learning into how to live a healthier, longer, optimal life is the, the main principles that I've learned are extreme cold exposure, extreme heat exposure and fasting. And I'm just trying to do those in a regular way whenever I can.

And a massive transformative purpose is what you're telling the world. It's like, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. This is the dent I'm going to make in the universe. Steve Aoki. Hey, buddy. Good to see you.

Hey, what's up, Peter?

Where are you this morning? Or afternoon as the case may be?

Las Vegas, back home.

Nice.

I'm just, it's, it's, it's like, you know, I always look at my house. Most people look at their home as their home. I look at it, it's like, this is like my vacation because like my home is the road. You know, it's, I, I hear you, I hear you.

And for a man, how many days on the road do you typically spend? I mean, you set, I think you set a Guinness Book world record for the most number of shows in a year.

Yeah. Most traveled musician on the planet.

Amazing.

In one calendar year. But it's, I, I'm, I'm definitely making efforts to slow down. I don't, I don't need to hold this title, you know, like, it's not a title. It's exciting to hold. It's like, it is like, you know, I do find myself like proud of this, you know, and when I hear about like, oh, Yoki's the hardest working artist out there. But it's, I mean then, then I have the, the issues of sleep, my low REM numbers which like astonish me, stuff like that.

And we're gonna get to that. Everybody, I'm Here on Moonshots and Mindsets with my friend Steve Aoki. Grammy nominated, billboard topping artist, renowned dj, philanthropist, fashion designer, author, futurist, surfer, and founder. And like you said, Guinness Book world record for the most traveled musician in a single year. Yeah, man, that's cool. So welcome home. I hope you get to stay there for a couple of days.

I do. I'm excited about this week.

Yeah. And it's funny, right? I mean, Covid was a relief for a lot of people. I mean, I'm a road warrior. Not at your level, but it was addicting to be home for it during COVID for a little bit.

Oh, my God. I totally agree. I mean, like, the first. The first part of COVID was tough, the adjustment. But once I settled in, once my. Like, it's. Once you tell your brain, like, yo, this is how it's gonna be, instead of, like. Like, you know, but when you're like, there's no more FOMO because there's no one's out, you, like, take away the FOMO element, you're like, oh, this is. This is life. Settle in, like, you know, figure out what. What you're going to do. That. That's when. That's when it became, like, a lot of fun. I love being home.

Yeah. I mean, you know, my heart goes out to people who, you know, lost family and got sick and lost jobs and all of that, but.

Yes. Yeah, but.

But, you know, those two years, I think a lot of folks are going to look back with this nostalgia of, like, it was great not to get on an airplane or go to meetings and just hang out with family and friends.

That's. That's the main thing is hanging out with family and friends. Like, it's. I remember I said I saw a mic on to a crowd right when Covid broke and I was playing shows again. I'm like, you know, Covid is all about spending times with people that you really know really well. Like, that's your tight circle. You see them, you grow, like, even a tighter bond.

Yeah.

Which is something I'll never forget. Like, swimming with my mom and my sister, like, 12 at night. And we're like, well, we probably will never do this again. We might, but, like, these are moments we have to embrace this stuff. And, like, we're kind of like holding each other, like, crying in our. Like, in this moment of just amazing time with, you know, spending with your family. And then I remember I was talking about this on the mic. Just, like, got all heartfelt. Like, I missed that, but it's interesting because like, when I'm on stage, I miss this. And it, the whole point of me being obsessed with being on stage is because I want to be around people.

That, I don't know, pump them full of energy. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think it's like, I'm like, we go out here, we go to these shows and I never make speeches at shows, but I'm like, we go out here, we go to these shows to be around people we don't know. We're like, this is like part of who we are as humans is that we, we like, want to be around people we don't know in large gatherings. Like, that's what's exciting. And we've been missing this for, for, you know, over a year. And this is why you can never take away festivals and shows. Like, because just part of like our brain makeup is like, we need that.

Oh, absolutely. There's, there's a need to be in community and a need to be in your crowd. And for those who don't know, you and I met through your foundation, which is focused on brain related matters. And you very kindly invited me to be a keynoter at your foundation event along with David Sinclair and some other amazing people. And it was great. And we're kindred spirits, different in many ways and 100% kindred in others. And so we've connected on longevity and on health and on brain science. And I guess you just did some, some brain related imaging and reports. What. What's up?

Yeah, yeah, no, it's. I went to Orange county and I met up with Dr. Amen.

Oh, great. Dr. Amen's awesome.

And yeah, and like, you know, I've done a brain MRI before because I was, I just wanted to make sure the brain was looking good. This is like ten years ago. Uh, but I did a different. It wasn't an mri. I, I laid back and he, you, you inject some isotopes. I guess they are radioactive, but they're not, you know, they're not bad, you know, or like it's a small minute amount. So you inject some isotopes into your bloodstream that, that, that cling on to your, your brain somehow. Um, I'm probably messing this whole thing up, but. And, and then you lay back like you're going in an mri and there's these little cameras around the, this machine. So it's not like mri. It's not like you're going this crazy thing with a crazy, you know, sounds and you just lay back and you, they, they took Pictures, and I think.

They'Re looking at, like, blood flow in your brain. Right, right.

Okay.

Yeah. And it's like your brain, when you go and get an mri, and I've done this through Fountain Life and through HLI a number of times. I think we connected your mom to one of those centers, right?

Yes.

Yeah. When you go, you go. And you typically get an imaging of your brain. It's a static image, meaning it's like. It's just looking at the structure, like, what's the volume of each part? And is there any, you know, anything too big or too small in there? But what's really interesting is your brain uses a ridiculous amount of oxygen and glucose and energy. And so the real interesting is, like, your blood. Brain flow, and your brain regulates where the blood goes depending upon its function. So I think Dr. Amen was looking at that. So how'd it go? Did you get a good report card?

Yeah, so I got a report card that I've never seen before, which is. That's what's so exciting. I think one of the cool things is you see a healthy brain. And I mean, I did. I did the scan and I went like, you know, 30 minutes later, I sat with Dr. Amen and. Or about an hour later, and we showed my brain and a healthy brain. And what was cool is, like, that, like, the top layer was. Was, you know, look looked pretty good. There was a little valley dent in. In my prefrontal. It's like, right here. So that, like, he attributed to that to potential, like concussions, like hitting on the back of my head, which I've. I've done from major spill snowboarding and like, extreme sports since I was a kid, which is actually quite interesting because, like, a lot of these, like, injuries I. I did or had were from 10, 20, 30 years ago. And there's. And you can still see that there is, like, the brain, like, sloshed forward and created this. This dent right here. And he's like, okay, that's something to focus on. And then he. He flipped. Flipped the brain upside down. And I got to see the underlying part of the brain, which is. That was really cool.

Yeah.

And. And. And you. When you flip it up, you have these lobes that. That. That kind of. They kind of pop up, like, almost like a helmet with, like, around your ears.

Sure.

And. And. And he was saying those are the temporal lobes. And they looked mangled. They were just deformed, and they're just like. And they showed a healthy brain. And my brain, my temporal lobes were just like, Kind of like all just destroyed. And then he was saying that he's attributing to some sort of, like, emotional traumas and things like that. And then I also did neurofeedback at the same time of seeing Dr. Amen. And the neurofeedback reports when I did, the brain map scan shows that I have. I have issues in memory and in my tinnitus. Like my interesting loud hearing, I think, attributed into the temporal lobe area. So that, that does have a. An alignment there.

I mean, obviously you abuse yourself from an auditory standpoint. I mean, in terms of the amount of energy that's going into your. Your eardrums every. Every night that you perform. And since you're the highest performing artists out there, I mean, it's probably not as bad as being, you know, on stage in the midst of a.

Of.

Of a rock concert, but maybe it is. I don't know.

Yeah, I like the. Right now in our conversation, I hear ringing. Yeah, it's just constant ringing, permanent ringing that I have to deal with the rest of my life because there's no cure for tinnitus yet. And I just. I just live with it. You know, I've been living with 2007, so it's. It just gets louder and louder as I destroy more and more of my hearing. But so I. You know, I wear earplugs pretty consistently now.

But I mean, it's interesting, right? A lot of us are naive about what's going on inside our bodies. We really don't know. I mean, and what's amazing, and I talk about this a lot, is that our bodies are really great at compensating for problems. And when you finally feel a problem, like, if you have cancer, God forbid you don't. You don't find out about it at stage zero, stage one or stage two, it's like stage three or four that you finally have some issues or problems. You go to the doctor at that point. That's a lot of why the kind of imaging that's becoming possible now, MRI and Connecticut and a whole bunch of other imaging modalities that allow you to look every year at your body, allow you to track what's going on in a preventative fashion instead of a reactive fashion. Hey, thanks for listening to Moonshots and Mindsets. I want to take a second and tell you about a company that I love. It's called Levels. And it helps me be responsible for the food that I eat, what I bring into my body. See, we were never designed as humans to eat as much sugar as we do. And sugar is not good for your brain or your heart or your body in general. Levels helps me monitor the impact of the foods that I eat by monitoring my blood sugar. For example, I learned that if I dip my bread in olive oil, it blunts my glycemic response, which is good for my health. If you're interested, learn more by going to Levels link. Peter Levels will give you an extra two months of membership. It's something that is, is critical for the future of your longevity. All right, let's get back to the conversation in the episode. I mean, one of the things I know you and I have talked about a bunch is the whole issue of sleep. And how would you describe your sleep, my friend? I mean, you're on a unusual sleep cycle, to say the least.

Absolutely irregular. Absolutely irregular. And I know that's like part of, you know, the, the main points of, of longevity is, is finding a really good regular, you know, schedule on all the things that you do to maintain health. Right. And I, and I get that, you know, but, and I try to do that with everything else in my life, but it's, it's nearly impossible if I was to, unless I quit touring, you know, and I'm not going to do that. So it's like the one, as much as I, I am into anti aging and biohacking and trying to figure out all the different things to, you know, optimize my life and live, you know, live a healthy, long, long, long life. The touring is probably the worst part of all of it because, you know, when I'm at home, I'll, you know, I'll go to bed at a very regular time.

What time would you go to bed if you were like this week or next two weeks? When you're home, what does your ideal pattern fall into?

I'll probably go to bed at 1 or 2 latest.

That's a.m. just to be clear.

Yeah, yeah, that's 1 or 2am but when I'm playing shows, I'm going to bed 4 or 5. Wow. And I'm not a napper. Only when I'm on a plane, only when I'm in modes of transportation do I nap.

Yeah, the vibration and the lower oxygen level can knock you out. And so the other side of the question is when do you wake up?

Well, see, the problem is when I'm touring, I have to get up for these early flights and that's when I'm like for this weekend. To give you an example, you know, from Mexico City to Vegas Vegas to Edmonton, Canada. Canada back to. To Vegas on Sunday. I got a total amount of maybe six hours, you know, sleep for those. For that run of, of three days.

So six hours for the total of three days or per day?

No, no total for, for all three days.

Oh my God. That's insane.

Yeah. I mean like not accounting the naps because they do count, but I don't want to count them. So I could be real with my numbers as, as conservative as possible. But you know, it's interesting because if you don't really do the diagnostic checks on and on. On your performance level because I, I used to just run like that. I used to do my shows consistently like you know, five, one point. I was doing 300 shows a year and I was doing those runs where I'm doing like two to four hours a night asleep for, you know, weeks on end. Weeks and weeks and weeks on end. And I never diagnostic checked my shows, but I was re. I really diagnostic check as much as I can nowadays. Right. And I got my third show in Edmonton. I was like, I, I was like forgetting some of the lyrics that songs that are very, very like, I'm like, why? Like clearly it's because I'm not sleeping. Or I was like, like I was like, wait, make some noise. You know, like, I'm like, wow. Not like so fluid and you know, but it's interesting how like the brain does like you think you're good, but you're not.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is not what you want to do at home. So you recently met up with a friend of mine, Matt Walker. I introduced Steve to Matt at one of my abundance platinum events. And you know, he is, he is the God of sleep. He wrote an amazing book, why we Sleep. And what did he tell you?

Yeah, so I mean you're, you're like.

Really, you're like the antichrist to sleep.

I. That's why it's a perfect pairing. Peter, you like as a godsend. No joke. And I'm so grateful.

My pleasure.

For introduction. Thank you for that. And I, I'm always, you know, especially things that I'm really deficient in. I'm always looking for the experts of those areas.

Sure.

Matt is, he is the God of sleep. He really is. And he's been really extremely helpful and attentive to my aura data. So we, we get on a call like, you know, like once a week. We text quite frequently now. And he's always checking my data and he's. The things he's. He's told me Is. It's like. It's funny to say, but it's really alarming. Like, I've never seen so low REM sleep ever. That's what he said. He's like, if I was to tell this to a close family, a friend of mine, I would tell them they need to make an extreme change in their life.

Oh, my God.

I'm like, God, if you're telling me this and I've been living this way for decades, you know, I mean, I'm. I'm like in a bad. I mean, I'm laughing because it's so, so, like, messed up, but. But now I'm making changes, so I'm. That's why I'm laughing.

Let's. Let's talk. Let's talk about that. What changes are you making? Because, you know, I mean, when Matt Walker talks about reduced sleep, he's like, if you're sleeping six and a half hours a day, that's not enough. Not six and a half hours over three days.

Oh, I got. I gotta, like, I just. I just gotta read you like one of the lines. He's. Please, you know, I'm sure this is meant to be.

This is meant to incentivize everybody listening that sleep is. Sleep is your superpower. I mean, yes, I. When I was in medical school, I used to like, you know, five and a half hours sleep was what I would optimize for. And of course that's. That's not healthy. And I do. I shoot for eight hours now, and I'm really pissed if I get. If I get seven, so.

Well, he did tell me, like, and I love this analogy. I think it's brilliant because it makes me look at sleep differently. But he's like in the, in the movie Limitless, that limitless drug.

Yes.

Where you're just like. Like just. You could do everything. Your brain's just like firing.

I love that movie. Love it.

Yeah. He's like, the limitless drug that we can all take is more sleep. I'm like, oh, my God. Because we all. I want to take this drug. It's like, just get more sleep. Just get more rem, you know? And I'm like, oh, like, I love thinking of it like that. Then I actually would start doing it. But anyways, he's.

What he said, what do you say?

Let's see, just on the REM because, like, this is what my main focus is. I have good deep sleep for my aura ring, but my REM is just piss poor. This is some of the lowest amount of rem. Sleep I've seen in an individual consistently over time. We usually only see this in people who are heavy alcoholics since alcohol blocks rem. Though I know this is not you, of course, because I don't, I don't drink. So the reason you don't get REM is that you are only sleeping four and a half hours a night and therefore never give your brain the chance to get any REM sleep. So that's like my focus since he's, since he told me this a few weeks ago and, and he put me on or he told me to, to take this, this, this, this med Trazodone. So I've been doing that nightly, about 50 milligrams of trazodone and it, it's not consistent. I'll be honest. First time I took it, I got an hour of rem, which is astonishingly high for me, which is not high enough. As you know, Peter, I usually get like 20 or 30 minutes of REM. Even an 8 hour horizontal sleep.

Yeah.

So it's, it was good just to get, just break the 60 minute, but I, I still, I still need to figure out why my brain wakes up out of REM to not allow me to get two hours or whatever what the, the usual dosage is. So I'm figuring that out. I'm still not there yet, but I had a healthy amount of sleep last night, took 100 milligrams of trazodone last night and I, and went to bed like at two and, and I, you know, after like those two, two to three hour windows of sleep over the weekend and I woke up at literally.

12:30 in the afternoon.

Yes.

So I slept 10 hours.

Incredibly long.

Yeah.

But still 30 minutes of REM sleep with all that sleep, huh? 30 minutes.

Well, for, for Christmas, I want to buy you some REM sleep.

Oh my God. I would, this would be the best. Oh my God. I desperately need more rem.

Oh my God. Hey everybody. I hope you're enjoying this episode. I'll tell you about something I've been doing for years. Every quarter or so, having a phlebotomist come to my home to draw bloods to understand what's going on inside my body. And it was a challenge to get all the right blood draws and all the right tests done. So I ended up co founding a company that sends a phlebotomist to my home to measure 40 different biomarkers every quarter, put them up on a dashboard so I can see what's in range, what's out of range and then get the right supplements, medicines, peptides, hormones to optimize my health. It's something that I want for all my friends and family, and I'd love it for you. If you're Interested, go to mylifeforest.com Peter to learn more. Let's get back to the episode. So, I mean, the other thing that you have to deal with, and I just dealt with this because I was back and forth to Europe twice and to the Middle east is the whole area of jet lag. Right. I mean, that must screw with you as. As well. So how do you deal with jet lag?

I deal with it like it's. It's never. It's never. I've never hacked it. I've never hacked.

I mean, is your brain just so screwed up in terms of not sleeping that it doesn't really matter?

I think my REM has probably been like. It's at this really, really bad position. Maybe my brain doesn't allow myself. I never checked my aura data before I used to travel. I never had aura back then. So. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting though, when I travel to, like, let's say I travel to Japan. Like, if I go. If I go, I guess east, right? Or east? West. West, yes. I'm in Nevada when I go to Japan, like three days I'm good, Three days I'm good. When I come back, it's like. Actually, no, when I go to Japan, it's like six days I'm bad, but I come back, it's like three days I'm good, three days I'm normal. So it's interesting when you go. When I go back to my time zone, it's a lot easier When I go there, it's like twice as long. I. I don't.

Interesting. Usually. Usually people do better when they go west. In fact, when you're. When you're looking at, like always on this ship called the World ship that would travel around the world and it would always be moving east to west because you're gaining time in that regard versus losing it. But anyway, pal, I mean, the single most important thing for all of us in the world of sleep is prioritizing it. And I think for me, the biggest lesson. And there's a whole bunch of hacks and I put out sort of summaries, but Matt Walker's book is still. Why We Sleep is the best, but it's prioritizing sleep. And when you go to sleep, which is really hard for you, I mean, it's like I'm in Bed at if I can, if I have any control. I'm in bed at 9:30 and I hope to be asleep by 10 because my brain wakes up in the morning at 5:30 or 6. The only way for me to get 8 hours is that way.

That's great. Yeah.

You do cold plunges? Does that help you at all?

Yeah, I mean I think that like I don't know if it's really helped me on my rem but on overall performance and just excitement for life just on that principle alone, I do it. I leave a cold plunge. I always say like whenever I onboard new members of the Cold plunge Extreme Cold exposure membership club that I have here at my house. And I love introducing this to very, very scared friends of mine. I'm like, you literally leave the water a brand new you. Like it's a different you. If you're prepared for that, join me into this new exclusive membership club, the extreme Cold.

So describe for people what, how long do you do a cold plunge for? Is it like an isolated bath? Talk to me about cold plunges. One second.

So I'm obsessed with, with cold punch. I, I, I got really into it through Wim Hof method and I started working with some of his, his students or whatever in different parts of the world. We would just fill up baths in the hotel room and do breath work and, and all that good stuff. So I, I got my own here and I went with Laird Hamilton. I did his house with him and Gabby and, and was inspired. Got his same unit. So I have, I got one here. Uh, it's a solo tub. You just sit in it and you fill it with ice. I got two of those because I had so many friends coming over. And then I got a third one because I was the guy onboarding so many people to the ice exposure. And then I was like, you know what, I need to do one better. So I turned my water feature in my house which is, holds probably at least 15 people. It's like a Jacuzzi so big and I just put a chiller on there and I, and I just turn into another extreme.

A group cold plunge. That's right. I mean normally it's 36 degrees. Maybe normally it's the Jacuzzi that everybody's jumping into here.

Yeah, yeah. So I get like the Jacuzzi is actually not even warm. I don't even heat up the Jacuzzi because I don't even use it. So I have my water feature that, that now we, I, you know, we bring in like six people or Whoever I'm like whoever I can onboard and we sitting there for four to five minutes. I don't know at what stage is a diminishing returns effect, but how.

What's the longest, what's the longest you've ever been in a cold plunge? Do you know?

You know, interestingly enough, as much as I do it and I, you know, I was doing it like daily during COVID and I do like three times a week, you know, when I'm home, I only, I've never broke 10 minutes. I always do like nine minutes in a mount, you know, I know I don't like turn it into like this, this, this like marathon. Like how long can I go? I just, you know, I mean my niece, I remember her, she's. When she was 19, during COVID we would do as a family, right? So we get my whole family together and do it. And, and the first, the first time she did it, she couldn't last 30 seconds. And then by the 10th time, she wanted to beat my security who was staying with me. That he's a Navy SEALs, you know, he just, he was in the Navy SEALs. He did 45 minutes for whatever reason. Why, I don't know why. And she was so angry, she's like, I'm gonna beat him. Like, Natalie, please do not do anything to endanger your health. I don't want to see you like have hypothermia. Just don't do it. And the next day she's like, I beat him 45 minutes and 30 seconds in the cold pledge. I'm like, this is. I can't believe it.

Yeah, I've been the longest I've done. It probably is like three minutes. But when I remember doing it was going underwater and holding my breath. You know, just a complete immersion for 60 seconds of that. And it is. I hate cold. I hate cold. It's like, I hate it. But you're absolutely right, man. It is. You come out of that feeling so energized, so revitalized that it's awesome. It's like, woo hoo. I just like doing. It's extraordinary.

Yeah, it's all, it's. It's always the worst before, like the, like there's no greater fear and feeling than before you even touch the water. And then the second biggest fear is in the first minute because your, your brain is just going haywire. Like, oh my God, what's going on? Like, you gotta get out. Like blah, blah, blah. Heart rate goes up, everything goes crazy. And then you think you're gonna Die. And, and you just have to tell yourself to calm down through that minute of pain and torture. And then, boom, that thermal layer of heat goes over your chest. You're like, whoa, I'm not cold. In the areas that, that are protected, your fingers start getting cold, and you just have to deal with that. But, and then you're like, wow, four minutes goes by pretty quick. And then, and then, and then you're just a brand new you and ready to take on the world you are.

And as David Sinclair and many others will tell you, that that cold plunge just activates so many genes that are revitalizing for you, because when the body's in extremis, it shuts down a lot of the lazy protocols and just gets you focused on performance. There's heat shock proteins that get activated in a, in a, in a sauna. And one of the things I love doing at my, my friend's home, I don't have the situation here is we'll go, you know, in the sauna for like 30 minutes and then cold plunge and then in the sauna and cold plunge, just going back and forth. I feel like I'm going to crack on that.

I love that. Yeah, I love that. That's the thing that I've learned through all this is like, as my, my journey and my, like, learning into, you know, how to live a healthier, longer optimal life is like the main, the main principles that I've, that I've learned are, you know, extreme cold exposure, extreme heat exposure, and, and fasting and, and I'm just trying to do those in a regular way whenever I can. And, and I, I, I feel more often.

And sleep.

And sleep, which I'm. I need to put that in the fourth. Yes, I need to put that in the fourth. I always see those three, and I'm like, God, sleep is so important. And I'm not, I am getting it, but I'm not getting enough rem, and I'm going to figure that out.

Steve, listen, thank you, my friend, for your, your unbridled enthusiasm and purpose and passion, and excited to be doing things with you. Excited to have you join us at a360 in March. Excited for helping spread the gospel of brain science and health through your foundation, and excited for the REM sleep I'm going to gift you, please.

Thank you, Peter. I'd love to talk with you.

All right, brother, be well. Have a beautiful day.