EP #22 Why Bitcoin in 2023? w/ Anthony "Pomp" Pompliano

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The ramifications of it working are very nerve wracking for people. Right. If we were to sit here and not talk about bitcoin and instead I said, peter, you know, there is a likelihood, whatever the percentage, that the US dollar is going to not be the global reserve currency in the future. That would be a very scary conversation. That transition period historically has been very violent. It's not something that people want to actually happen. If you actually understand how it occurs. It's a nasty bad thing and a.

Massive transformative purpose is what you're telling the world. It's like, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. This is the dent I'm going to make in the universe. Everybody, Peter Diamandis here. Welcome to Moonshots and Mindsets. And today we're going to talk about a few different elements of Moonshots and Mindsets, particularly around the whole bitcoin world. I have with me Anthony Pompliano. And I asked Anthony, who calls him Anthony, and he said his mom. And I guess your wife doesn't want to call you Pomp. I'm going to call you Pomp just because, you know, the world calls you that. Good to see you, pal.

Absolutely. Great to see you as well. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure to build our friendship. So let's begin. I'm going to actually ask you a question. The world sees you and knows you as one of the most respected thought leaders in the bitcoin space. How does it actually feel? Do you feel like a level of responsibility there?

Yeah, it's a great question. I definitely don't want to be seen that way because I feel like bitcoin is one of these topics that you're constantly, constantly learning about. And it's not just learning about the software or the protocol itself or the design of the mining mechanisms. But you're also learning about economics and politics and history and many other topics as well. And so in some ways, it's a blessing and a curse to have kind of gone deep down this rabbit hole and done so in such a public manner. It has afforded me amazing opportunities. I've met an incredible number of people that I highly respect and really enjoy speaking with and learning. I've been able to travel around the world because of it. But at the same time, people do look at you sometimes as the teacher. And that's not really a role that I've historically been comfortable with, because sometimes when you're the teacher, it stunts the learning because everyone thinks that you should have all the answers. And so I try my best to kind of remind myself, hey, I'm definitely the student and just trying to learn alongside everybody else.

Well, it's going to be fun. You know, it's interesting, right? Today, bitcoin is, and we'll get into all the details here, mostly a store of value. But there is a vision where I'm whipping out my bitcoin wallet to pay for my airplane ticket and my travel and my pizza and my restaurant. How far away are we from that element where bitcoin is not just something I buy and hold onto like gold, but something that I'm actually going to be utilizing in commerce or some version of that, whether it be the Lightning Network and such?

Yeah, it's a great question, because I think you can look at this two different ways. You can look it on a geographic basis, and then you can also look at it on a sequential basis. And so take sequence, maybe as the first example. Most assets that end up becoming money, meaning that it fulfills both store value and medium of exchange. And then ultimately a unit of account, they start out as a store of value, right? If people don't believe that it is going to have value or hold value, they are less likely then to want to accept it as a medium of exchange and definitely to price assets in it in terms of that unit of account. And so you kind of have to be a store of value before you earn the right to move on to become a medium of exchange or unit of account. And so bitcoin so far has, like, done a pretty good job, I think, of capturing mines and on the store value kind of framework. And so now the big question is when and if bitcoin will also become that medium of exchange. You referenced the Lightning Network. And there's a number of other technologies that people are trying to push forward that can help do that. That then brings up the question around geography. And so in the United States there's been a number of people, probably most notably Alex Gladstein at the Human Rights foundation, who have talked about this idea of financial privilege. We don't think of financial privilege as a thing, but if you were to compare somebody sitting in the United States with somebody sitting maybe in Zimbabwe on the other extreme, we sure have it pretty good Here in the US we have a native curr that we generally believe holds most of its value over a long period of time. There's a liquid market in terms of medium of exchange. All the units of a good or a service are priced in that currency. And there's not a lot of fluctuation on an hour to hour, day to day basis. And when you compare those two environments, the US is much better off. And so the idea in the bitcoin community of where medium of exchange for bitcoin will really kind of take hold is in the places that need it most. In the United States, we actually don't have a huge need for another currency as a medium of exchange. The dollars work to accomplish that kind of vision or that use case. But if you go to other parts of the world, that is not necessarily the case. And we see bitcoin beginning to gain adoption there. And then when you also talk about the cross border components of it, right when all of a sudden it's not just for remittances, although that's a huge cross border use case. But also imagine anyone in the world being able to set up a website and immediately start to accept payment and not have to have a bank account or not have to wor about foreign currency exchange or anything like that. And so ultimately bitcoin has to be a store of value. I think that it's done a pretty good job of capturing that and found success. Now as we move into this medium of exchange standpoint, one, we have to have the infrastructure and technology available. But also two is we should expect that really story to kind of take hold in the places where the currencies and the payment technologies are really bad and people are looking for alternatives. And so I think that's going to be outside the United States in the short term.

Yeah. And I, when I think about that, it's really a, it's for me one of the abundance drivers out there. Right. In terms of, in order for folks to have this concept of abundance where you're uplifting people across food, water, energy, health care, education, all of these things, having the ability to have currencies that hold their value and are utilizable is fundamental. Otherwise it's a difficult life. And so when people, I equate the whole Bitcoin ecosystem with one of global increasing abundance.

Yeah. The other piece I would say on that, Peter, which I find really misunderstood, is that you and I living in the United States, we actually have an advantage in planning our financial life, right? Yes, the dollar will lose value over the next two, five, ten years, but for the most part, it will hold majority its value compared to other currencies in the world. And so that gives us this ability to say, okay, I'm going to save. I am going to spend x dollars every 12 months on a, B or C good or service. I am going to invest because I am looking for a specified rate of return that will outpace kind of the accepted levels of inflation. But if you all of a sudden go to a country or a geography where the currency rapidly depreciates, as we see in a variety of examples, it's really hard to plan. How do you plan your life? And so I think on the extremes, having a currency that has a slow depreciation versus a rapid depreciation, obviously the people that live in the economy with the slow depreciation are just an advantage from a planning perspective. And as we know, we live much longer lives than it may seem day to day. And so planning is a key component of it.

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I think that's directionally correct. Somewhere in that range.

So if I think about this, there's been an interesting. If you look at the bitcoin pricing curve, we've seen these peaks and these lulls and I'll never forget when it peaked back and was it 2017 and then there was this massive sell off and would it ever come back? And in each of those sell offs and those repurchases by it feels like it's a leveling of the playing field where we've gone from a bunch of crypto whales to a much broader base of ownership. Does that sound about right?

Yeah, I think there's two data points that are really important when it comes to ownership. The first is that the amount of bitcoin that is held by whales has drastically decreased over time. So there is absolutely as a percentage.

Basis or as an absolute basis on both.

So I think there's two data points that are really important when it comes to understanding concentration ownership. The first is that in the beginning there's very few people who wanted bitcoin or even knew about bitcoin and so they got a lot of bitcoin. But over time, those people have slowly spent or sold some of that bitcoin. And so you see kind of a larger dispersion of ownership and so it's becoming more decentralized in ownership, which is important. The second thing you see is where are those bitcoin going? And so even though bitcoin over the last 12 months or so has dropped 75% in price, there are a couple of key things that surprised me. The first is that 67% of all Bitcoin has not moved during that 75% drop in price. So two thirds of all bitcoin that's in circulation, people are not selling, they're not spending, they're holding it even though price is going down. That would indicate a long term conviction in either price recovering or never selling and always kind of holding for that store value. The second thing is that we have seen wallets on chain or think of these as the bitcoin addresses with at least 0.1 or 0.01 bitcoin, kind of a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars worth of bitcoin. Those continue to hit all time highs that throughout this last 12 months. And so as the price drops, what we're actually seeing is not whales or really large institutions. We're seeing mostly individuals on chain that are just buying up small amounts of bitcoin and ultimately kind of accumulating what ends up being hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars. And so those two stories, kind of the dispersion from the whales to everyone else and then also kind of the all time high accumulation coming from these smaller accounts tells a story of decentralization that is really compelling. Because ultimately, if bitcoin is to achieve its vision and be this decentralized electronic cash kind of system, you need to have decentralization of the infrastructure, you need to have decentralization of the mining, you need to have decentralization of the ownership as well. And so I think that ends up being kind of a tailwind for the asset over the coming years.

Yeah, it's interesting, the long term, you know, holding hodling as the, as the community refers to it feels almost built into the bitcoin mindset. You know, it's interesting. When I was a kid, I remember for like graduation or birthdays or Christmases, I used to get these savings bonds which would mature in 20 years. Right? It would be like your uncle or aunt or parents, not my parents, but uncles or aunts would give me the savings bond. It would be like $100 savings bond. They paid 20 bucks for it. And over the course of 20 years it would mature, given interest, to be able to be turned in for 100 bucks. And recently my niece got married and I gave her a bitcoin as a wedding presentation with the mindset that, you know, this is for your long term future. And there is a fundamental belief that this is a long term play, it's not a near term speculation. And so folks who are getting into bitcoin for early on, first of all, I'd love you to comment on, you know, the Notion it's never too late to get in. And then if you're, if you're buying into bitcoin, if you've been thinking about it but haven't yet or have just started, why should you be thinking about getting into it? What's the mindset you should be going into bitcoin with at the early stages?

Yeah. A lot of people obviously over the years have asked me, what is bitcoin? How does it work? Why are you interested in it? And one of the secrets to my efficacy in teaching so many people about bitcoin is that I never talked about bitcoin. I almost always talked about the problem first. And what I would explain to them is the challenges that inflation provide for the average person. And what you find in these conversations is that the average American, but also the average global citizen was not taught anything about economics or personal finance ever, ever, Never. Right. And so when you say to them, hey, if you save your dollars and they continue to be devalued and you leave them in the bank for 10 years, you're losing purchasing power. Now the number stays the same of the number of dollars in your bank account, but you lose purchasing power. And so when people start to understand kind of how the existing system works, they naturally then say like, well that's not good, what can I do? Right. And so that has been a great way for me to then introduce the concept of bitcoin. And so the way that I think of it, again, this isn't for everyone. There's many people who think of it differently. But the way that I found it valuable is I essentially look at the conversion of a depreciating asset over long period of time dollars. And what I am doing is I am buying an asset that is a great store of value and an appreciating asset over a long period of time that's driven by a finite supply and kind of the structure of the system. But that alone isn't good enough. I think that this mindset that you described around long term hodling or holding, however you want to pronounce it, is I also said to myself, I am going to give the bitcoin to my grandkids. And so what that did is it got me in a mental state where I'm not trying to trade, I'm not trying to time market cycles. I'm not even really caring what the US dollar price is. Instead what I do is I just dollar cost average into an asset that I believe over a very long period of time will be more and more Valuable. And then my goal is to give that to, you know, kind of descendants, if you will. Now, what's fascinating is this is a traditional financial principle, right? Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger will talk about buy great assets and hold them forever. Our favorite holding time is forever. And so I actually think, although the bitcoin community and the traditional finance community sometimes feel like they're at odds with each other or in competition, they're arguing on the Internet, there's a lot more similarities than maybe people realize in terms of how these individuals look at the asset and what their plan is over a long period of time.

So how do you answer the person who goes, listen, I get it, I understand that it's not being inflated. There's a limited number of 21 million bitcoin that ever be produced, et cetera, et cetera, but oh my God, I bought it at 60 or 50 and it's down at 17. And I mean, what do you mean? This is dropping much faster than the dollar value. So how do you react to that for them?

Yeah, I think it's a fair criticism if you were to look at, let's say a one year timeframe, right? Obviously in November of 2021, Bitcoin was $69,000. Today it's at 17. That's not a great store of value over a one year period because it obviously has dropped significantly. But if you go back to January of 2020, kind of before the pandemic era, Bitcoin was $8,000. And so it's doubled over that kind of three year period or so. And so it's outperformed most other assets, including fiat currencies like the dollar and others. Now what I just did there was I allowed the critics to Cherry pick a 12 month period and then I cherry picked a 3 year. Two wrongs do not make a right. Instead, what it does is it just allows for fodder to kick off arguments on the Internet. And so I actually don't think that kind of cherry picking short timeframes, whether they're 1, 2, 3, 5 years, really matters. What I'm personally more interested in is if you look at the structure of the asset over very long periods of time, and I equate it to maybe housing. Most people who grew up kind of before maybe the 1990s or so would always be told, hey, real estate always goes up, right? You'll always make money, get into real estate, get into real estate.

A lot of the people I know made in Hollywood. In particular the actors, the writers, the musicians, who made any money were the ones who took their paychecks and put it into real estate. It was just the formula over and over again.

Absolutely. And the reason why real estate has been so great is one, it's a hard asset. Right. Two, is in short periods of time, there's absolutely housing bubbles and bursts, and we've seen that time and time again. But over a long period of time, it's actually, actually that the dollar has been devalued and so it takes more dollars to buy the same hard asset over a 10, 20, 30 year period. And so you're getting rich in dollar terms by holding non dollar assets. And so that's really, to me, what Bitcoin is, is that Bitcoin is, it's a digital asset, but it's a hard digital asset. It's hard money. And what that allows for is for individuals to buy it. And even though in the short term you will have price fluctuations that are very pronounced, I mean, when you talk about 70 down or 100% plus on the upside, these are incredible amounts of volatility compared to other assets that are denominated in dollars that the average person would hold. But over a very long period of time, what you essentially are looking at is a finite supply asset that as more and more people, which is the trend, continue to find out about it, they seem to find it valuable and then they seem to want to actually go ahead and hold some themselves. And so if you're a student of economics, you don't have to be in 201 or 301. You could have attended just 101 of supply, fixed supply, asset demand goes up, ultimately the price has to go up to accommodate everyone. Where I think a lot of the debate happens is one, how and when will it go up, how fast will it go up and when. But also two is a lot of critics believe that demand for Bitcoin will not increase and therefore that would not lead to kind of that long term price appreciation or store value. And so, you know, people can debate that. I think that is probably where the debate is. But if, if demand does increase over a long period of time, then the structure of it would tell us that the price has to go up. And all the details are up for debate.

And I'll come back to that in the conversation of how high could it go. But before then, a couple of points to make. Interestingly enough, if you buy housing and you buy housing that is in a great location, Central park on the shore in Malibu, you know, that is sufficiently scarce and the price goes up. The fact of the matter is over time that housing is taxed and if you do nothing, you'll eventually lose the house back to the government because your tax bill will eventually overcome the value of the house. And one of the challenges is that but there's nobody taxing Bitcoin, which is another point to make. And then over the last two or three years, people have put their money into real estate and they've seen this appreciation of their real estate and they feel like they're incredibly smart for having invested in that real estate. What they don't realize is it's inflation has been driving the pricing up. Right. The actual value of the real estate hasn't really changed and you aren't as brilliant as you thought you were. Or it's like the government's just been over inflating the money supply. Any thoughts on those two points?

Yeah, there's a lot of friends that I have who spend much more time than I on what's the true rate of inflation. And I've for a long time thought that it was likely that the official CPI numbers were under counting inflation even when it was at 1.5% or 2% and less to do with malice or kind of nefarious activity and much more just the methodology at which it's calculated means that it's very much backwards looking and lags and has a bunch of complexities that aren't worth getting into. But when you look at housing, housing is probably a pretty good signal to tell you definitely, directionally, but even kind of with sensitivity as to how much inflation is going up or down. And so when you see housing prices up 20% year over year, when you see rent prices up about the same, that's probably a good sign that inflation is 6 or 7. Now again, is real inflation 10, 12, 15 or even 2020 people will debate. I think it's less important to nail the exact number and it's more to understand that by holding real estate in the general sense in the United States, what you're really doing is you're just combating the inflation. So you're getting richer and richer in dollar terms. But is your purchasing power going up at a faster rate than inflation? Questionable. And then really if you can pick the right places, as you mentioned Malibu, I think Miami, there's a couple of others that have outperformed the national average, then you're getting a little bit of alpha, if you will. But for the most part, I think real estate, the reason why it's been such a Great asset. I think it's like 90% of millionaires in the United States made it in real estate is because it's dummy proof to some degree. Okay, so you're basically telling me I got to have enough money to buy an asset, and then I just hold it. That removes so much complexity for people. If you think of the stock market, people are trying to picture pick which stock they're trying to pick. When should they buy it, how should they sell it? When should they sell it? Oh, I saw a headline that's going to scare me into selling. It's easy to just press a button and I'm out. And so ultimately, I think that real estate has a number of different components to it that make it a great investment class for the majority of folks. And then what that means for Bitcoin is when you really think about the United states economy, about 50% or so, depending on which survey you look at, 50% of Americans have no investments. They live 100% cash in the bank, paycheck to paycheck. And so, yeah, what we're basically saying to those people is we have not done a good enough job educating you on how you are losing purchasing power year after year after year. And so those people are literally getting poorer and poorer in purchasing power terms every single year, while wealthy people understand get out of the dollar, invest, hold assets that appreciate, and they end up actually becoming richer and richer. And this is where you get the wealth inequality G and a bunch of the issues that I think people have identified. But the other thing that we are asking is because the dollar is being depreciated and you can't simply sit with the cash in your bank account is we are asking people to go be police officers and firemen and account managers, be accountants, to be marketers, operations, customer service, whatever role that they have at any company in our society, go be great at that role. And then when you go home on nights and weekends, we need you to become a professional investor. Investor. We need you to become a capital allocator. Because if you just save your money, you are actually going to be hurt. And so the financial incentive is for you now to learn investing. Now, investing is great, but I don't know if we want to have an economy predicated on the fact that every single member of it, in order to stay ahead and not fall behind, has to become a professional investor. That seems like a really, really hard kind of situation to be in. And so the promise of Bitcoin is it can be used as a savings technology. We can Go back to the idea of just save money. If you save money in the right asset, then over time you actually have more purchasing power rather than less.

The general public of any nation puts their faith in the government as the stabilizing force and keeping the value of their currency. In fact, I think the average citizen doesn't think about that at all. I want to hit on one point before we lose it, which is for folks who did buy Bitcoin at, at 50 or 60 or 65 and it's now at 17, there is something called the Wash rule in investing that doesn't apply to Bitcoin. And let's talk about the important action folks should be taking if they haven't yet. Do you want to describe that?

Yeah. So the way that the Wash rule works is in the US Stock market, if you were to hold Amazon and you bought it at $100 and it's now down at doll, you have an unrealized loss of $90. But in order to be able to use that as a loss on your taxes, you have to sell the stock to capture the loss. And so when you do that, the government has put rules in place where they don't want you to simply sell the stock and buy it right back. Right. For, for a number of different reasons. And so I think it's 90 days, basically you have to sell the stock and not buy it back for that 90 day period.

And then, and if you do that, you can, you can take the loss and apply that to your taxes.

Yes. You say to the government, hey, I lost $90. Right, because it went down that 90%. Now what many people do that have become sophisticated in the stock market is they sell Amazon and they have realized that there's a high correlation between Amazon and another company. And so they just buy the other company in the 90 day period to keep the same type of exposure, but they capture the loss. Super sophisticated technique. And so we with the bitcoin and crypto world, what people realize is that that wash rule does not apply. You can actually sell Bitcoin and buy it right back and capture gains or losses. Now I'm always careful to tell people, make sure that you talk to your accountant, make sure that somebody who is probably smarter than you when it comes to taxes actually looks at this and understands your specific situation. Because there's a lot of nuance and kind of ramifications for decisions you make. But the general premise is that if you had bought bitcoin at a higher price, the price has dropped, you would be able to Sell it, capture the loss and then you could buy the asset right back. You don't have to wait that 90 day period. And so in essence you would end up with about the same bitcoin. But now you could use that loss on your taxes. And so again, it's not a perfect example. There are some nuances that people should pay attention to and talk to professional about. But I do think that it's worth understanding how the wash rule works and going and seeing. Is this something that you could use to your advantage as we hit the end of the year here?

Yeah. And so it's something that just full disclosure, I did because I was, I've been buying bitcoin all along. I just bought some again when it was down at 16, but I bought Bitcoin when it was 60 and when it hit 20 or so I sold it and purchased it back so I could take that 40k loss on my taxes this year. And I just think it's something important for folks to know if you don't. I had Cathie Wood on my Stage at abundance.360. And I've had Michael Saylor, who was my fraternity brother at MIT on this podcast. And one of the things I spoke about with both of them is, okay, how high could it go? What is the potential for bitcoin? Because depending on it's at 17,000. Now when we're recording this, you know, if you put your money in and you lose it all, you could lose 17k per bitcoin purchased. But on the flip side, if you understand what the potential upside is, that helps you in the calculation of do I play in this ecosystem or not? So if you don't mind, I'd love to hear how you think about it. How high could it go? You know, what is, what are some metrics on store value as compared to gold or real estate? How do you think about it?

Yeah, it's a fascinating question because I.

Don'T think, and this is not investment advice, this is just a conversation between friends. And I'll tell you what I do, you tell me what you do. And that's about it.

Absolutely. I think that there are multiple outcomes that determine what the US dollar price could be. And so let's just walk through three of them. We mentioned earlier that bitcoin could be a store of value, could be a medium of exchange, or it could also go the distance and become a unit of account. Account. And so the way I kind of look at it is, by the way.

What do you mean by I understand Store of value, right. This is like where I put my cash to hold it. You know, people could buy gold, they could buy stock, they could buy real estate. I understand medium of exchange. Like, I'm going to buy stuff with it. The third category, what does that mean?

Unit of account. So if I ask you, you know, how much is the box of cereal at the grocery store? You would tell me it's $3.50 cents. So you're using dollars as the unit of account. There is a subset of the bitcoin community that believes bitcoin will become the unit of account. And so you may say it is one bitcoin or it is, you know, half a bitcoin.

That's an expensive cereal.

Yes. There's nuance, obviously, in terms of just as the $1 equals 100 pennies, there are smaller units of bitcoin called satoshis. And so the idea would be, you know, it's 1200 SATs or whatever. Whatever. And so I basically look at this as a probabilistic outcome. And if you said to me it becomes a store of value on a global scale, it's probably worth, at the high end, a million dollars if it ends up being a medium of exchange.

A million per bitcoin.

A million per bitcoin.

Correct.

If it ends up becoming a medium of exchange, it's probably worth millions of dollars per bitcoin. And then if it ends up becoming a unit of account, there's actually no price for bitcoin, which is a very interesting concept. So the reason why I say about a million dollars or so if it was to become a global store of value says two times the size of the gold market. And frankly, I'm probably being conservative in looking at it. If you think of bitcoin as at least a 10x improvement on gold as a store of value, it's more divisible, it's virtual, it's more portable, it's more secure. All these different things. The gold market's about 10 trillion or so, which is about 500k a Bitcoin. If Bitcoin just reached the 10 trillion market cap, and so A2X would put it at a million bucks, and then obviously anything above that would kind of just move in, in lockstep. Now, if you became a medium of exchange, the reason why the price per bitcoin is higher is because more people want to use it, not just the people who want it for store value. Now it's people using it to actually purchase things or accept it for the goods and services. That they create. And so I'll use a broad brush and I'll say millions of dollars because I think it's really hard to put an exact number on it. Is it 2 million, 5 million, what? I don't know. I tend to think that if it becomes anything more than a store of value, people who are holding bitcoin are probably pretty happy. And, you know, the difference between 2 and $4 million almost doesn't matter at that point, given where the price is today. Now, the last category, this unit of account is when I say no price, it's because if I said to you right now, how much is a dollar worth? You would say, well, the dollar is worth a dollar, right? $1 equals $1. And so. So we don't think of the dollar as volatile because everything is priced in dollars. Actually, what we do know is that according to the official numbers, the dollar has lost 7% of its value over the last 12 months. Right. Probably more than that on the unofficial numbers. And so the reason why we don't think of price of a dollar is because we're using an asset to buy a good or service that is priced in that asset. And so if bitcoin was to become the unit of account, we would no longer think of a bitcoin price. Right? What is price? Price is the exchange value between two assets. And so if I have one bitcoin, as we've been talking, what's the price of Bitcoin? $17,000. Meaning if I go to the market and say, who wants to buy my bitcoin from me? They'll pay you $17,000. Well, if you do that with dollars, other people with dollars will say, well, I have a dollar, you have a dollar. Like, I don't want to buy it. Right. What they will do is they may want to buy it in other currencies, they may want to buy it in the price of a home or something like that. And so ultimately, if bitcoin is to achieve this unit of account, the price become important, right? Because now it's all about purchasing power, which is where the dollar has been.

How many big Macs or starbuck lattes can you purchase with it?

Correct, correct. And so the only really path, I think, to a true unit of account on a global scale is if bitcoin was to ascend to become the global reserve currency now the dollar is the global reserve currency today. That is why we price things. If you ever go to another country, there are many countries around the world where they accept their native kind of home Currency, and then they will also accept dollars. Right? It serves kind of that purpose of kind of an international currency that everyone uses as the reserve. Now, for bitcoin to get to the global reserve currency and to ultimately become that global unit of account, I think there are two paths that are worth mentioning. The first is what I call the Internet path, which is just more and more commerce and GDP gets onto the Internet and somebody wants a native currency for the Internet. And therefore Bitcoin serves that purpose in a way that fiat currencies struggle. And so it just naturally eats up more and more of economic activity, serving as that kind of global reserve currency. The second one is a little bit darker, which is the failure of the fiat currencies, or kind of the failing of the fiat currencies at the foot of Bitcoin. Now, as we know, fiat currencies throughout history have failed over a long period of time. The average life currencies somewhere, ballpark around 250 years or so, depending on who you talk to and which currencies they're looking at. And so when you see that as kind of the historical context, that doesn't mean that there aren't outliers. Some currencies could last many years after that, and some currencies last two years, and then they fail. But what I think the bitcoin community believes is that Bitcoin is this automated central bank. It is something that is programmatic. It exists in a virtual world, but it is decentralized. No one controls it. And so what it has done is it has mitigated many of the risks that fiat currencies have most namely the fact that if you have a fiat currency, that means someone can create more of it. And humans are greedy and they create more of the currency, which ultimately devalues it, which then leads to its demise over very long periods of time. Well, if you have Bitcoin and no one can create more of it, then therefore it is likely to continue to ascend in popularity and adoption. Which means that at the same time that the fiat currencies are dropping in bitcoin value and popularity, this is ascending. And so it looks like it could become a replacement. What are the odds of that? You and I don't have enough time to sit and debate all the different viewpoints, but literally there are people who think that there is a negative percent chance all the way to people who think there's 100% chance and everyone in between, but that it would be one of the paths that it could get there to be that Unit of account and ultimately kind of have no value in price terms.

Amazing. And, you know, that's what makes the future so fun and exciting, is you don't know. And in retrospect, it's going to be obvious. How could you not have seen that coming? Yeah, I remember in the 2008 financial crisis, there was. Everybody was, you know, screaming the, the sky is falling and we're screwed and the world is ending. And I remember all of these ads. I was bombarded by ads to buy gold. Buy gold, buy gold. And I actually bought some gold. And I was like, okay, you know, listen, if the world's going to end, I can't eat it, but I can, like, trade it. And. And so I had in my safe a number of ounces of gold. And then in 2004, I made a decision to sell my gold and buy bitcoin. Now, I wish I'd held all the bitcoin I had purchased. I didn't. But, you know, I got in and I put out a blog saying, you know, I've taught about the 6D of exponentials, that when you digitize something in the early days, it's deceptive and then eventually disruptive. And it digitizes, it dematerializes, demonetizes, and democratizes products and services. And bitcoin is the perfect 6D analog, right? We've digitized currency in that regard. It's dematerialized the central bank and dematerialized physical currency. And it's begun to demonetize, monetize the transactions and democratize access here. And I remember thinking about, what are the stages that are going to cause it to become more and more useful and adopted? Because the early stages, it was really the tech entrepreneur, it was the early bitcoiners, what became known as the whales. But then we started seeing institutional investments. So what are the stages of its ascendancy, if you would? What should we be looking for next?

Yeah, most disruptive technologies actually come top down. So what you get is military, you get universities, you get governments. They really are the ones who are doing kind of innovative technology research and pushing things forward. They begin to use some of this new stuff and adopt, adopted. You then see it kind of trickle down into the commercial or business world. So you'll then start to see businesses say, hey, we should use this computer thing, or we should use this Internet thing. How can we make money with it? And they start to adopt it. And then last, and usually kind of an afterthought is the individuals themselves. And so if you look at the computer. It literally started from the military all the way down to the businesses, and then eventually everyone got kind of a laptop on their desk. Same thing with the Internet and access to it and computational power, all of that. Bitcoin has been the exact opposite. Bitcoin has actually gone from being an asset that was adopted by individuals first to now businesses. And we are just starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where countries will start to play in the game as well. And so I, I think directionally understanding that sequence is important because it means that this is an individual led revolution, if you will, or technology adoption story. That's one milestone. I think it's just you got to make the jump from now businesses starting to adopt it to eventually getting the countries. The second thing that I think is really, really important is that bitcoin is this trojan horse for financial education. I think a lot about how many people around the world are financially educated and whatever that penetration is today is quite small compared to what it will be in the future. And so as we get a higher penetration of people who understand how fiat currencies work, then you will see a higher degree of adoption of Bitcoin. And so kind of that penetration point is important. And then the last thing, people don't like to hear this answer because it's something that we don't control. But actually one of the most important kind of milestones is time. Time. We simply just need to let time pass. And as we know, humans are horrible at this. We like to do things, we like to feel in control. But just sitting on our hands and simply allowing time to pass is important for Bitcoin's development. It shows a longer and longer history of it having survived without any issues, without being hacked. It allows for the idea to kind of gestate and eventually kind of infiltrate into people's minds. People get comfortable with it. I've heard about it. I, I understand how it works.

It hasn't been hacked yet, hasn't gone away. My friends who invested are investing more. It's changing the mindset there.

Yeah. And then the last thing is, and this is a little bit morbid, but the people who will never understand or never want to learn about it, as is the circle of life, they will eventually pass away. And younger people will then ascend to the positions of power, inflows, influence and decision making that those individuals have. And so I've said for a long time that, you know, a bitcoiner will be president one day. I don't necessarily think that's because a bitcoiner is going to run on the bitcoin, you know, kind of party standard, if you will. Instead, what is likely to happen is that that individual who becomes the president will simply own some bitcoin. We see other politicians that own bitcoin today. And just like there's a stock investor that is president today, right? That doesn't mean that they ran on the the party of we are going to invest in stocks or I believe everyone should own a stock. No, they just happen to have a financial asset. And so I think that time is a really key component of it. It's just, you know, for better or worse, we can't speed it up and so we should just sit back and let it do its thing.

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So I tend to think of Bitcoin in 2020 until today is really just in the second inning or second quarter. The first first inning or quarter was going back the first 10 years of Bitcoin. Bitcoin was adopted by individuals and really drove kind of everything from who was holding it, who was talking about it and who thought that it had a future. But once we got to 2020, we then started to see whether it was public companies, whether it was hedge fund managers, family offices, private businesses, they all started to get excited about bitcoin. And so as we continue to see this kind of path forward, eventually there's going to be a third inning or a third quarter, which really be the governments. And so El Salvador is one of them.

But pomp before that, we're going to see from the individuals, larger private institutions. Right. Are we going to see. I'm looking for when our family offices going in deep and when are corporations putting their treasuries into bitcoin? When are financial institutions. We've seen financial institutions say this is a sham, we're never going to invest. And then all of a sudden they're flipping. Jamie Dimon's been all over the place on this. Where are we in that subsection of the second or third quarter or whatever?

I would say that family offices that are interested in the stuff they're already in, they've been in now for a couple of years. They came in when Stanley Druckenmiller and Paul Tudor Jones came out and publicly said he buying it. We think it, you know, it's interesting, most of the family offices said, well, if it's good enough for two of the best, you know, investors of the last 30, 40 years, we should take a look. And most of them came to the conclusion that they wanted it. When it comes to the financial institutions, each one of them is a little bit different. But what I can tell you we've got a business that does a lot of corporate training. So we go into the large companies, large financial organizations and train them on these technologies. They all have dedicated teams now. Some of the teams are more bitcoin centric, some of the teams are more kind of crypto centric. Some of them are looking at how do we build products and services to actually generate revenue. Some of the teams are interested in should we buy it and put on our balance sheet. You know, there's kind of different focuses, but they all have dedicated teams looking at this and trying to figure out what's their strategy. And then some of them that are financial organizations like a Fidelity have now created the ability for their customers to buy and sell or to use some of those products and services. And so you're seeing them kind of go deeper and deeper into this world. The last one companies, it's pretty interesting. Back in 2020 we saw MicroStrategy, we saw Square, now known as Block, and we saw Tesla be three of the larger companies that were non bitcoin native but ended up putting bitcoin on their balance sheet and did it with relative size, millions of dollars, tens of millions, hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars. And so, so many people thought, including myself, that we would see a cascade and we would see that kind of very quickly spread throughout the public markets. And unfortunately we haven't seen that yet. Instead, what we've seen are those three companies continue to hold some of or all of their assets. There's a lot of what I'll call crypto native firms. Some of them are bitcoin centric, some of them are miners or whatever. They obviously have bitcoin on their balance sheet. But outside of that there's been very few companies that have actually gone ahead and done it on the balance sheet sheet. The private market, there's probably more in terms of just the volume or aggregate number, but there still aren't, as far as we know, outside of maybe a SpaceX which is now public, that they've put bitcoin on their balance sheet, there's still not companies that are worth tens of billions of dollars in the private market that appear to be doing it either. Some of the question is just how much of that is fiduciary duty versus hey, that the executives of the company don't actually believe that it's a good idea or that that it could be valuable for the enterprise.

It's interesting, right, because I've had the conversation with some of my organizations. I mean I know for abundance360, my CEO summit. I've said I'm happy to take payment in bitcoin and we've had a number of members do that. And then I'm just holding it in that regard. But I am curious what you think the next big shoe to drop in this field will be. Be?

Yeah, I think there are.

And what does it mean for a shoe to drop? I don't know. But.

Well, there's two different things that I think are worth paying attention to. Maybe the first is the having cycle. There's a lot of people who think the having doesn't matter. For those that don't know, Bitcoin has a issuance schedule. So basically how much bitcoin is coming into circulation every single day until we reach the full 21 million. Every four years or so that number drops by 50%. So it used to be 50 Bitcoin every 10 minutes, then it went to 25, then 12 and a half, now 6.25. And it'll get cut in half again about 18ish months or so from now. Now again, I'm just a student of economics and supply and demand. And so if you have an asset and there's a change to the supply, it becomes more scarce and demand stays the same, then price has to to move. Now how big it moves, you know, is up for debate, but price has to move. And so I think that that moment has proven in the past to be a large catalyst of price. I think it will continue to be a catalyst of price.

Which means the price has gone up when it's halved.

Correct. About usually we have reached a new all time high within about 18 months of it happening. So it happens. And then within the next 18 months we hit an all time high. For context, back in May, May of 2020 was the last halving. We hit an all time high in November of 2021. Right. And so again, history is not a perfect guide for the future. But we would be dumb if we did not pay attention to history. And so I think that that moment has some impact. Although you could argue the impact is lessening as more and more people kind of come into the market and it's less pronounced. But I think it's worth paying attention to. The second thing thing is actually what I will consider the government adoption. But the government adoption is not just should we buy bitcoin. I actually think there's two other things governments can do to drive bitcoin adoption. The first is that they can go ahead and create either adversarial or sympathetic rules when it comes to actual regulation, law and taxation. And so as they kind of pick and choose what their strategies are going to be, in countries where we have seen them ban bitcoin ownership in the past, we've actually seen adoption go up. So in countries like Nigeria and Pakistan, the government steps in and says, no, this is not allowed. We're going to outlaw this. And people go and buy bitcoin. And there's an element of, like, those people already didn't trust their government. And so when their government tells them not to do something, they become very interested in, why do you not want me to do this? But the other thing is the launch of central bank digital currencies, known as CBDCs. And the reason why I think these CBDCs are going to be kind of a watershed moment for bitcoin. Bitcoin is that CBDCs provide a couple of things to governments they previously weren't able to do. One that many people have talked about is surveillance. So now all of a sudden, they don't need to go to a FISA court as an example in order to be able to see what's in your bank account. They can instead just look on their version of a blockchain and see what every single person actually has in their bank account. Little scary. But the second thing is it introduces personalization to monetary policy. And this is actually one of the biggest risks that I see moving forward that a lot of people aren't yet talking about talking about. And what this risk entails is right now, if a central bank makes a decision on monetary policy, it's one size fits all. They raise interest rates. You, me, and everyone else in the country, we all experience the same kind of severity of the interest rate increase if they decide to actually pursue loose monetary policy. The same policy is applied evenly to all citizens that hold that currency. But if we get central bank digital currencies now, they may be able to say, peter, you've been a good boy. We are going to give you a lower interest rate. We're going to give you monetary policy. Right. We actually want you to be able to do A, B or C things. But pomp, you've been a bad boy, we're going to give you the opposite. And so you can see a world where personalization of monetary policy, although theoretically it may sound good, could be very slippery slope.

Manipulative. Sure.

Yes. And so I think that people, just as they learn more about central bank digital currencies, they see them in action, they realize what some of the power that have now been granted kind of unilaterally to these governments with central bank digital currencies are. There's a lot of people who say, hey, digital currency is a good idea, but I want the one that the governments don't control versus the one that they do. And so that leads to kind of more adoption or more, as the bitcoin community call it, orange pilling of a large portion of the population.

Yeah, I mean, we're going to see continued digitization and dematerialization of systems. And governments, I think, are going to find it far too appealing not to play in this field. Let me take it back to those listening who are just thinking about getting involved in bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and ask a question. Again, not monetary advice, but if people have money in the bank, if they have money in, in different forms of savings, the rate of interest has been ticking up slowly as central banks increase the numbers. And you can get in 90 day treasuries anywhere from 2% to 4%, which is better than 0% or negative percent that it was in the past. But how, you know, if your friend is asking you out of $100, how much should I put in? If I have $100 that I don't need for some period of time, how much should I put in Bitcoin? Should I invest some of it in Ethereum or other cryptocurrencies? How do you think about that? I mean, I'll share what I'm doing and how I think about it as well. But I'm curious, Pomp, if you'd be willing to do that?

Yeah, I've always said there's really two different types of people that are asking this question. There's what I'll call the professionals, the people who are focused on this day to day and they've chosen to specialize in this field, those people are going to have a very large portion. Right. That this is what they see as their day to day. I liken it to a venture capitalist who has overweight exposure to venture capital, or I liken it to public stock hedge fund manager who has way too much money probably in their hedge fund. And so I think take those people out of the equation for a second and let's just talk about again, the teacher, the firefighter, the accounting manager or whoever. And really it's just like any other kind of asymmetric asset. It's probably somewhere between 1 to 5%. It's some value that you're willing to lose if it doesn't work, but it's enough that where if the asymmetry actually works, it has a material impact on the portfolio and then it's money that you're actually willing to have be illiquid for a long period of time, which is a key component. Yes, it is still liquid because you could go sell the bitcoin at any time. But if you are thinking about it over the long run, you basically would then dollar cost average into the asset. So buy periodically a certain amount and then essentially just think of it as illiquid. You're not going to touch it for whether that's 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And so naturally it's got to be a small percentage to kind of fit that criteria for most people.

Yeah. So just to slow this down a second and use what we talked about before, or Bitcoin's at 17,000, if you're putting 1 to 5% and you have to be willing to say I'm not going to touch that for five years, at least 10 years, probably, maybe for even longer. So can you afford to put that amount away? You have to have in the back of your mind, probably low probability. But still, still could I afford to lose this? But on the flip side, if it's going from 17,000 to just for ease of mathematics, 1.7 million, if it's gone from the million to the millions, then you have 100x increase in potential value there, that's that disproportionate. I'm willing to lose it all. But if it goes 100x, it's a home run. And so I'm going to take take that bet. Is that the way you should think about it?

That's the way that I've always thought about it. And I think that's the way that majority of the folks that have told me, hey, I've got some bitcoin, or I bought some Bitcoin, or I'm dollar cost averaging into bitcoin. I think that's how they think about it. It's an easily accessible asymmetric opportunity. And there's other asymmetric opportunities. Obviously venture capital and many other asset classes provide asymmetric symmetry. They may just not be as easy to access, they may not be as liquid, they may not be kind of as simple to understand what the value is and things like that. And so I think people just say, you know what, maybe it works. Maybe these crazy people on the Internet are right and I'll put, you know, 1% of my assets into it and I'll forget about it. For 10 years and let's see what happens. And I have a friend who always jokes with me. I asked him why he bought bitcoin. He said, because I knew you were really into it. And, and if we all lost money, I want to be part of the party. And if we all made money, I want to be part of the party too.

Okay, man, that's amazing. How much ethereum do you own proportionate to bitcoin? Do you own any ethereum?

I think I still have some. It's very, very small amount that's left over. I actually started mining ether and it was I think $10 when I started mining it. Along the way, I actually sold, I think almost all of it at about $150. I thought I was a genius, you know, nice 15x and look how smart I am. And then it went to $1,400 the same year and felt really dumb. So there's. Financial markets have a way of humbling you very, very quickly. And so I still have some, but on a percentage basis it's fairly insignificant compared to, to bitcoin. And the bitcoin is where old, like net new dollars for years pretty much have gone in terms of as I've been dollar cost averaging. I've just been buying bitcoin.

Do you own any other cryptocurrencies besides bitcoin per se?

I have a couple of companies where I invested in founders very early. These are founders who, you know, it was two people in an idea type thing. And some of them have gone on and pivoted or changed their plans or done things where they've created tokens. I don't directly hold them. I don't do anything. I don't trade coins, anything like that. But that's pretty much the only other thing is in cases where people have kind of tried to figure out, hey, how do we build a business? Some of them naturally, over the last three or four years said, hey, this crypto thing seems to have a lot of tailwinds. Like, let's go see if there's something here. Unfortunately, in many of those cases it hasn't worked. So there may be a lesson learned there of just Bitcoin seems to be pretty valuable. There's question marks on some of the other large cap assets.

So you don't have millions in dogecoin at the moment.

Listen, I'm not a funny person, so I actually Elon, when he went on SNL and he was talking about it and kind of laughing everything I was saying, I think I'm Old, because I don't understand some of the jokes that everyone is saying. I felt very out of touch, and I was scared that I would mark the top. Right? If I had bought dogecoin, I would have marked the top for straight. So I just sat that one out.

Probably was the top. So you've got folks like Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger who are like, dudes, don't understand it, don't want to buy it, don't stay away. I don't know if they're calling it a scam or they're calling it baseless, but how do you think about the old school, sort of robber barons at the financial world world dissing bitcoin? They just don't get it. They just don't understand it. Are they fundamentally wrong? Is there any arguments they make that should be heeded?

I'll tell you a story. It wasn't with Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, but I think it will highlight how I've thought about this for the last couple of years. In 2019, I believe it was, a partner of mine, Mark Yusko, came to New York City, where I was living at the time, and set up an entire day of what I called the Wall street legends. And we went and saw a bunch of people we're talking about Julian Robertson, Howard Marks, and all of these individuals who Mark had known for a very long period of time. And in each one of the conversations, although each one was different, they basically followed the same track, which was, okay, explain this. That's interesting. They'd ask a question or two, and then it would be great. Thanks so much for your time. Time. We'll take a look at it. Have a great day. And I think that there was two ways to kind of react to the conversations. It was very clear that they were not interested. They were kind, but they were not interested. If you could think back in 2019, the price had fallen, you know, 85% or so. Like, there was a lot of reasons not to be interested. And when I walked out of the meetings, Mark asked me, he said, what do you think? And I said to him, well, we could be mad and upset and disappointed. They don't, you know, aren't into it and all this stuff. Stuff. Or you can be excited that you just saw the opportunity. And I chose the second one because it said to me, look, the people who have established careers, right, that there's the innovator's dilemma. There's all these things that we know in the literature that basically highlight the fact that they are incentivized for some of this not to work. They don't need to find the next great trend. They can actually wait for a long period of time and then when they realize that is heavily de risked, they could put a lot of money into it. And so somebody like an Anthony Scaramucci, actually I remember talking to him about in 2019 and he was very articulate, very educated on the history of currencies and basically gave me a lecture, a quality kind of crash course. And then he said, we're looking at it, but he didn't do anything. And then a couple years later, all of a sudden he bought $400 million worth of Bitcoin out of one of their funds and they were in. And so I think that is very similar to the Warren Buffetts and Charlie Municipality youngers. They're already wealthy. It's not their game. It's outside of their circle of competence, which they've iterated over the years, is they want to focus on the circle of competence. And it also violates a lot of their worldview. If you look at these folks, they actually believe the world doesn't operate this way. And so for them to become sympathetic to bitcoin, you would basically have to flip their worldview upside down, which I think is just very hard, hard at any age.

I like to say an expert is someone who can tell, who tells you exactly how it can't be done. And there's this massive disincentive to an expert for their field to become disrupted because they're no longer the expert and people get comfortable and know what they know and this has such disruption, disruptive long term implications that I'm sure it is scary for many.

I also think that there's this piece of the ramifications of it working are very nerve wracking for people, right? If we were to sit here and not talk about bitcoin and instead I said, peter, there is a likely likelihood, whatever the percentage, that the US dollar is going to not be the global reserve currency in the future. That would be a very scary conversation. That transition period historically has been very violent. It's not something that people want to actually happen. Right. If you actually understand how it occurs, it's a nasty bad thing. There's another way to look at it, which is the structure of these assets are causing bigger and bigger bubbles and bigger problems. There's stagnation when it comes to economic kind of growth, that there are increasing levels of debt and it's becoming unsustainable. And so actually we need the life raft. We need the path forward where there is hope. And so regardless of whether you look at it from a doomsday perspective or an optimistic perspective, it's an uncomfortable conversation in both scenarios. And so I think there's a lot of older folks who've just been around for a long time, been highly successful in a given world, that it's a tale as old as time. They'd have to do a lot of work to change their mind, and it may not be worth it.

Yeah. This podcast is in part about mindsets. And I think there is very much a bitcoin mindset. How would you describe a bitcoin mindset?

Depends on who in the bitcoin community. Some of them see the world through the lens of memes and Twitter. To them, Twitter is real life, and they're up to date on the latest memes. But you put aside the fun part. I think there's a terminology used quite a bit called orange pilling, and it's a play on red pill, blue pill. But orange pilling is this idea that you start to see the world in a different perspective or through a different lens, and what you end up having is a lot more questions than answers. You actually are starting from a default position of skepticism when it comes to large institutions. And so things like the food supply now somehow get aligned with bitcoin. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of people in the bitcoin community that are sympathetic to the idea that the food pyramid is actually upside down. It should be mostly a meat diet. Diet. It shouldn't necessarily be so many carbohydrates and things like that. Again, whether they're right or not, you end up seeing.

That's the first time I've heard that correlation.

There is a very large overlap between the carnivore diet and bitcoiners.

Is it keto diet?

Keto would be another version of it. Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple of things, and I'm always carrying careful. Like, you can't put an entire community of people in a single box. Right. There's also vegetarians that like bitcoin and all that. But I do think that those two communities tend to find each other. The other one is what I'll call like the libertarian community that encompasses quite a bit, but questioning institutions, questioning governments, trying to advocate for small government and things like that. You see them. But ultimately, I think it's. If I had to sum it up, like the bitcoin mindset is one of self reliance. How do you build resilience, right? How do you do that mentally, physically, spiritually and financially? And if you can build self reliance and a high degree of resilience, then you are closer rather than further from that Bitcoin kind of promise. And Bitcoin is a way to do that financially with a piece of open source technology that's decentralized, not controlled by anyone. But what it does is it ultimately offers the opportunity for you to take some sort of personal responsibility for your own financial well being. You have to opt in, right? You have to go and learn about this. You have to take control of your private keys so that you control your assets. And so naturally, as people learn about that in their financial life, they say, well, what about my physical life, what about my spiritual life, what about my mental life? And so you just start to see kind of an increase of independence of self starter of resilience, which I think, you know, on, on a net basis in a general way is pretty positive for society overall.

The two places I've seen a correlation in the Bitcoin mindset is individuals who are interested in longevity. I think that's a natural, you know, if you're interested, if you're looking to add 50 or 100 years on your life, having an economic system that can last you that long, where you can accumulate your wealth and not have it sublimate and, or vaporize away as the case may be. And that makes sense. The other place I've seen it is in the space community, basically people who are interested in where the human race goes next. I was having a conversation recently, recently in asking the question, as we move into, outside the confines of Earth, as we go to the moon, we go to Mars, we build o' Neill colonies, we're going to bring with us different elements of the human race. We'll bring forms of government, we'll bring languages, we'll bring societal structures, we'll bring monetary structures. And the curious question is, is bitcoin well positioned to sort of be the baseline monetary structure for the human species beyond balance of Earth? And I tend to think yes. I'm curious about your thoughts.

Well, you can start from the other side, which is none of the other forms of money can do it. Right? So process of elimination gets us to Bitcoin is a maybe. And we have nothing else at the moment. Now we'll see somebody invent the space rocks currency and it's something we've never heard. Sure, maybe. But I think just literally process of elimination leaves us with at the moment, maybe it's Bitcoin and we don't have any other good ideas. And so I think if you believe that we will reach multi planetary kind of life and that is the path of progression, if you will. There's a strong argument that we better make sure that bitcoin survives and thrives and can ultimately, ultimately be used in these other economies and civilizations. Because we don't have a better idea right now, I think to your point about space. But also we don't have a better idea of what's going to be around in 100 or 200 years either. We should probably work on this.

So speaking about what's going to be around, one of the questions that people who are just getting to bitcoin need to be thinking about and asking, asking is like where do I store my bitcoin? You know, where do I put it? You know, because I know where I store my stocks. They're in Schwab. They're you know, whatever trading account you're, you use or my accountant has them someplace and I store my dollars in this particular bank. And we've seen just you know, a recent meltdown in with FTX and a number. I mean I've had lots of friends who have lost their cryptocurrencies. One friend of mine lost it in Voyager. So I guess the question is how do you answer someone? Right now I keep my cryptocurrency a little bit in Coinbase so I can trade it and send it and then the majority of it's in Abra, which I know the CEO Bill Barheit and full disclosure, I'm an advisor there. But it seems pretty, pretty stable. I have some cryptocurrencies on a hardware wallet mask where you keep yours.

Yeah. So my best piece of advice for folks in bear markets, we all get the reminder of one of the value proposition of Bitcoin being your private keys. You can hold the private keys. There's a saying, not your keys, not your coins. And I just like everyone else I'm lazy. Right. So I get reminded. Every bear market is well of, of the importance of it. But I, I think that being able to actually hold those private keys are super important. The idea of self custody. And so when you do that it's pretty simple. You can go to Ledger, there's a couple other companies and you can just buy a piece of hardware. They now have gotten to the point where it's like pretty simple. I suggest that you start with like $5 worth so you can move it off of the exchange onto the device. Move it back, back. Right. Like get comfortable actually understanding how to move this stuff. Get comfortable, you know, checking every day, hey, is it still there? Build your confidence, all of that with small amounts that if you make a mistake you, you, you won't kind of beat yourself up over. But I, I think that that ultimately is the best long term strategy is.

So it's basically holding it on a hardware wallet that you have in your safe. And that hardware wallet is a digital container. Container if you would. And if you, if you. There are ways to recover if you lose your password there. I guess the advantage of going on an exchange like an Abra is a. You get interest rates there so you can earn, you know, 2 to 5% depending on where things are correct.

Yeah. And as many people know, I've used those platforms in the past that offer interest and you have to really understand the risk that you're taking. Right. I'm somebody who believes in personal responsibility and kind of you make individual, individual choice and so people will 100% use them whether folks like it or not. I think you just have to make sure that you understand the risk that you're taking when you use those types of platforms because what they're ultimately doing is they're lending out on the back end. Right. To be able to generate the yield and they share some with you. Very similar to what happens in the banking system or wherever else. And so just, you know, wherever you keep it, just understand the risk. There's risks with everything. But I think just doing your homework is important. Important.

Pomp. Listen, I just grateful for the Bitcoin 101 and getting people knowledgeable about this. I do think it's something that I advise my friends and families to get involved in to some degree. And like I said, I've been giving this sort of as latest as wedding presents and birthday presents which I think just forcing people to get a wallet and to accept, accept it and think about it. Where do people find you? What's the best way for folks to follow your work and your advice?

Yeah, well, listen, I really appreciate the conversation. You've built an amazing community of people that I'm excited to see their reaction and get their feedback. The best place is probably just Twitter. Pompliano on Twitter. I tend to share too much there and blab along along with everybody else on the Internet, but that's probably the best place.

And do you have any final predictions on Bitcoin price? Everybody's making predictions these days.

It will survive. That is my prediction.

It'll be greater than zero.

Yes, it'll be greater than zero. That's a good way to put it.

Yeah. Well, okay, I'll take that much. Anthony Pompliano Pomp, thank you so much for your time. Grateful to have you and my life and excited to see have this conversation a year from now. And let's see, does it get from 17 to back up to 70? We'll see. Take care, my friend.

All right. Thank you so much, Peter.

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