What Unconvential Therapists Need To Know About Private Practice W/ Dr. Tina Vitolo [Ep 13]

Welcome to the Thriving therapyneur podcast, the show for ambitious therapists who are ready to unapologetically make more money, scale their impact and build their dream coaching business. I'm Carly Hill, therapist turned coach turned CEO of a seven figure online business. I created the Thriving Therapeutic podcast because I'm obsessed with helping big hearted therapists outgrow the office and build successful and sustainable online businesses. So if you are wondering how you can continue to make an impact without sacrificing the life you love, welcome. Therapy. This is exactly the place for you. Think of it like the business school we never had. I am so excited to dive in with you. Let's get started. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Thriving Therapy newer podcast. I have Tina here with us. This is a very special episode. Tina and I go way back. We've met eight years ago at this point. Tina is an awesome clinician. She's also a coach to help innovative therapists have an aligned business. Really the out of the box therapist, the black sheep therapist, as you like to call it. She has a program called the Innovative Practitioner Accelerator. Tina's been practicing in the field for nearly 20 years and her MO really is helping these unconventional therapists as the. This is definitely how you have always ran your practice as well. So welcome to the show, Tina. Let's dive in.

Thank you. Let's do it.

So tell everyone in your own words, how did you even get started in social work? What led you to get your doctorate? And then where did you kind of find your niche in practicing? Alternatively, holistically, this out of the box black sheep therapist. When, when did she come out?

Well, I feel like I had two errors when it came to me as a therapist. Right. So when I first started out, I think I was like 22 years old or so. Like, social work just kind of fell into my lap because, you know, at the time it was like, oh, I just want to do things to help people. I'm not really sure what that would entail. And then just everyone's advice kind of like led me to the social work field. They were like, this is going to be more marketable for you whenever, you know, you decide to figure out what you want to do. Which everyone was right. I'll give them. So, you know, you go into school, I was again 22, so full frontal lobe, not even developed yet. Right. Becoming a master at helping people heal. And I really struggled with that program. I took classes at nyu. It was a very, you know, difficult, vigorous program. And I always felt like I Just couldn't get concepts the way that other people were getting concepts. And I finished school with this whole degree, no clue what I was doing. Like truly had no idea what I was doing. And then, you know, you get into the field and you start working and then you start to realize that most of your clinical supervisors are just versions of you that got outta school not knowing what they were doing, and then just kept a job somewhere for 10 years, right? And now they're your supervisor in that area and it's not their fault. I feel like that's just the way the system is kind of built, right? It's very robotic. It's like, okay, you do this and then you do this and then you get burned out. And then you work community mental health, then eventually you get your private practice and then, you know, you're really smart from there. Like you figured it out. And I noticed really quickly that I was over stuff super quick. Like, you know, I'd work for one company and I'd be like, I'm over it. And then I'd work for another one. I'd figure all that out and I'd be over it. And I just kept jumping from like position to position to position, trying to like, figure out the one thing that was going to finally like light me up. And it never came. And something I realized probably like a good 10 years into my practice was that, you know, I had a lot of unhealed stuff going on. I wasn't really aware of the, you know, wounds I was holding. I wasn't aware of the, you know, perceptions of myself that I had that were quite negative. And, and here I was in this profession helping other people heal and transform when in fact, like I wasn't even doing that for me. And then that internal conflict was hard to sit in because I feel like for most therapists this is where the burnout happens because we're not pouring into ourselves. We haven't done the internal work. We didn't even know there was internal work to do, right? And then we're here. So supposed to be helping people in relationships and in their career and reduce, you know, increasing their self esteem, all of these things. And we're over here like hating life. I got to a point where my personal life just really took a turn for the worst. I was looking at everything going like, I'm not happy, I'm not happy in my relationships, I was like 60 pounds heavier. I wasn't doing anything to support like a healthy lifestyle. And here I am as a therapist. So like this Started to not make sense to me, and I started to go the conventional route of getting help, you know? So I saw a therapist. I went on medication, did all the things, and I was like, this sucks. Like, I'm not getting better, right? I just wasn't getting better. Like, you know, I remember my therapist talking to me about, you know, compartmentalization and cbt, and she was, like, giving me an example of the lockers. And I remember looking at her going, bro. Like, this is not it.

This is not.

Is not it. Like, I do this. I teach this, right? So is this it? I was like, is. Is this how good, like, healing is? Is, like, so we're all screwed, basically, was my mindset. But then I found myself, like, you know, in a synchronistic way, right in front of kind of more spiritual healers, like, just randomly. My parents owned a restaurant, and one of the people that would go there was a spiritual intuitive, and she did ginseng and. Which is like acupressure. And I was like, yeah, I gotta try something else. Like, none of this is working. Let me. So it was like, I went there, and I remember just having, like, a transformative experience where I was like, where did I just go? Because wherever that is, I want to go there again. So then I started messing with, like, intuitives and psychics, and then I was like, hypnosis and then past life regret, whatever you could mention. Like, I was doing it. I was like, oh, this feels amazing. And it was that stuff that made me really grow and heal. Like, it was amazing, you know, inner child work, all that. Like, it was all those pieces that I was not getting in the conventional world that made me feel better and then maybe reevaluate my life to be like, what am I doing right? Like, you know, with it? Where do I want to go with this? So I loved integrating that because that's what accelerated my healing. Not the conventional approaches. Not, you know, trying to be like, oh, these, you know, conventional approaches don't work. But they didn't work for me. And it was because I needed to tap into, like, different dimensions of myself to heal, not just one.

And that's what's led you to. Well, is like, I need to find out more about this. Like, how is this working so well for me? And then how can I integrate this in my own practice? Is that how it went?

Well, it went, like, because I was integrating all of these different spiritual practices. I was getting different messages, and I started to get different thought healers kind of in front of me right So I would. I remember a psychic, Denise, she sent me a book, Dr. Darren Weisman's how to Unlock the Secret Code of youf Mind. And it talks a lot about subconscious programming and the healing frequencies of love and gratitude. And I remember like reading it being like, oh, this is really interesting, like, I want to know more about this. And then I actually like signed up for a course to get certified as a holistic practitioner. And it was weird because my, my professional life was still kind of coasting. Like I wasn't really doing much with it. I was starting to elevate my personal world, right. My personal healing. So I remember when I went, I was like hearing him speak about all of these different approaches that he integrates into his work. And I kept feeling him talk about clinical theories that I've heard in school, but I really didn't grasp that at that point. So that like kind of made the light bulb start going like, okay, he's kind of considered woo woo. You know, it's non empirical, you know, approaches all this stuff using muscle reflex testing and healing frequencies and chakras, all of these things. But like, he's really talking about fundamental pieces of clinical theory and knowledge that I've been taught. And the thing about this space compared to the other spaces is this space felt safe, felt vulnerable. It was exciting. Exciting. You know, people wanted you to dive deep so that like, in the deeper you went, the more people like championed you and cheered you on to like, get through this like, portal that you're going through. It was like so different than what I've experienced in any therapy or. Yeah, anything conventional I've ever been. So it was that experience that made me go, maybe there's something here to look at. And that's kind of what promoted me to go back to school. Because I had been out of school for like 13 years and I didn't feel like a better therapist after 13 years.

Right.

Like I really. But I was like, you know, there's gotta be a way to merge these. Because over here in like the Woowoo world, I mean, you remember I used to talk about things and you're like, ooh, ooh, what's that? Like, used to find it really interesting, but I never brought it in to the clinical work. It was just more like, this is what I'm doing personally, but, oh, professionally it sucks just doing the days over here.

This is when we were working at NeuroCorps, the brain performance center together, Right. Or that's when you went back to school.

So at the beginning of neurocorps. Before you started working there? I had already gone to Chicago to, like, learn about the lifeline technique. And then it took two years to get, like, certified in it. And that's when you ended up coming over to neurocor. And then about halfway through that is when I decided, I'm gonna go back to school.

Okay. Yeah.

Cause I. In my mind, I was like, oh, I'm gonna test the lifeline technique on brain waves. It's gonna be so cool. Cool. I was so excited. Whole, you know, cart before the horse. You know, my typical jam. And when I got accepted, I was like, wow, this is so crazy. Like, this is actually gonna happen. And then, like, reality hit where my professors were like, why is this even important in the mental health field? And I was like, because it is.

Yeah.

I'm like, is that not a good enough answer? They're like, no, that's not a good enough answer. Like, where's your research to support that? This is important. I was like, I don't know. They're like, well, go find it. And then I started researching, and I was like, there's nothing out here. Like, there's very scarce amount of research on, like, the impacts, especially in mental health. There's a lot in medicine and nursing, but not really in mental health. So I had to change my research focus on understanding, like, the beliefs, the attitudes, the knowledge that social work practitioners had in integrating these approaches. Because, you know, my belief was like, oh, well, maybe therapists don't care about this. But then my research showed they actually really do.

Yeah.

And they practice it, but they're so.

Afraid to practice it because the lack of research. And this is where the innovative practitioner accelerator comes into place, because you're giving everyone a permission slip who wants to practice alternatively that they can. But before we get there, tell us about your dissertation.

Yeah. So I ended up interviewing or doing a survey to, like, I sent it out to every single social worker, licensed social worker in the state of Florida. So if you're an lcsw in Florida, I'm sure you got my email. And I was so impressed with the amount of knowledge that therapists actually had. Cause I think, like, 89% of the individuals that actually, like, answered the survey had such good knowledge about. Because I gave questionnaires out of, like, you know, what does this mean? What does that mean is true or false? And they knew it. But I was like, where are you getting this training from? Because they don't teach it in school. But all the research I was gathering was showing that, like, clients are demanding this. They want to integrate more alternative spiritual practices into their conventional care. And they're also really scared to bring it up because they think they're going to be judged and they think they're going to be isolated in their treatment, and they don't want that. I mean, we know what that's all like, you know, like, we therapists can be very judgy. A lot of people in the professions of healing can be very, very judgy and very rigid. And it's crazy to me because how do you heal from them? How do you. How do you heal or teach people how to grow? Being so rigid makes no sense to me, and it never helped me. So when I was realizing all of this, I was like, okay, there's a need. There's a need and there's no roadmap.

Yeah.

And then I graduated. I was like, okay, great, cool. You know, like, here I am, expert in complementary and alternative interventions and clinical practice. And I. Then I sat here and I was like, I have no idea how to integrate this into my clinical practice with clients without losing my license.

Right.

How.

That's the key thing. Without losing your license. It's like it was so innate and within you. It was everything. You were living and breathing for years at this point, but feeling frozen or like, I always, like, say, like, the ethical gods are going to come after you. God forbid you actually implement it in your practice.

Well, yeah, when I tell you there's nothing, believe me, because I've done the research, there's nothing. There is nothing to help a clinician decide how they're going to integrate a more unconventional, spiritual, holistic approach into their practice in a way where they feel honestly, like, clinically sound, competent, and where they can move professionally free. There's. There's nothing listed anywhere. And then when you try to ask the boards, because I did this too. I mean, you remember I was like.

Every single board, every single state, every single attorney.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Like, I was like, help, somebody please. Like, where are you guys at? Like, and then I would, you know, try to go on Facebook groups and be like, hey, does anyone know? And then, you know, I'd get targeted and attacked. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, this is really annoying. I think it took, like, for my own personal practice, I feel like it took, like, a good year to figure out how to do this. After reading. I don't even know how many scopes of practices I read or how many ethical code of ethic things I've read, like, it's ridiculous because I consider myself a smart person. And then I'm reading these and I'm like, what does that mean? I'm so confused. Like, I know words, I know what words mean. But you're putting them in this sentence. I don't know what that means. And then I hire people to help me with this. And then the board's responses are like, we can't help you interpret whatever we've written.

It's up to the interpretation of the law. So then you hire attorneys, right? Because then you went down the rabbit hole of like, all right, well, let me get even more smart here. Like, who's going to come after me if I were to, quote, unquote, practice out of my scope? They gotta know something.

Exactly. I was like, all right, malpractice attorneys come after me. What's good? Like, I was like, let's just let me talk to them. And I was like, I'm gonna have them read it and be like, what do you think? So I remember they looked through all the scopes of practices for the three states I was licensed in, and they were just like, there's nothing in here that says you can't. And I was like, I know that, and I also don't trust that. So I need more assurance here. So I, like, came up with a formula for them. And I was like, all right, I'm seeing words like clinical theory and all these scopes of practice. I don't see evidence based anything. I don't see empirically supported anything. I don't see science anything like, nothing. So I don't know where this concept came from that's jammed down our throat at school. It's probably from, you know, insurance panels that we need to must integrate, like, only interventions that have been vigorously researched because there's nothing there. Believe me. I checked twice and I'm about to do it again for this research that I'm doing. So I'm like, okay, clinical theory is important. So let me figure out how my practice is guided by which clinical theories. So I said, if I put all these theories in here and I can put words together on how it applies to my practice and how it aligns with these unconventional spiritual approaches. Like, we're more using them as a way to, like, support clinically studied, you know, information, knowledge, whatever. I was like. And I indicate the risks and benefits if I put links to more information, if I'm able to do all that and fuse all that together, like, am I good? And they were like, I don't know what you could possibly be missing, because no one even goes this far in their, like, informed consent. Because my informed consent is so long.

Yeah.

There's an appendix that lists all of the innovative practices I use.

If that's not a peace of mind, I don't know what is. Like, I said, like, truly, that permission slip, and this is malpractice attorneys that are telling you this, that work with clinicians, you know, or rather come after clinicians, and they're like, you're good. Right. But I think the question then becomes, all right, so, I mean, thank God Tina exists on this earth and she did all of this research, and, like, okay, she has the formula laid out for us where we can implement all of this, but what the heck does that look like? Is that, like, super complicated? And I'm sure this is everything that you walk everyone through inside your program, but figuring out what their clinical theory really is and then figuring out how they can back this up with all of their spiritual and alternative practices, it's. It's starting from there. Is that right?

Yeah. So the way I like to teach, because some. Some clinicians feel like they already know their clinical theory, but then sometimes people get confused on what clinical theory actually is. Because when I say clinical theory, people will be like, oh, you know, like, cbt or, like, you know, I do more. You know, I use emdr. I'm like, that's not really what I'm talking about because that's an empirically supported treatment mod. That's something that's been studied for a particular population. When I talk about theory, I'm talking about, like, humanistic, existential. Like, what are the guideline parameters that influence your work with clients? Like, what are the main fundamental concepts that you bring in the transformative process of healing? And most people don't know that because it's taught in school one semester and it's never really talked about again for sure. And no one's talking about it after school, like, ever. Like, that's it. It's over. So personally, what I did is I looked at my own story of transformation, right? So I looked at myself, like, where I was when I. How I grew up. What were those big aha moments, those defining moments for me? What were, like, things I started doing that made me feel more aligned and better? And then what led me to kind of this maintenance phase, right? And what I did is I took my story and I aligned it with five different clinical theories. So I took my own story to figure out my framework, because as you Teach. You know, we were once, most of us were once all our ideal client. So when we have this expertise from our own story that we can bring in, we can also use it to figure out our integrated clinical practice framework, how we work with clients. So instead of like just picking one out of a hat and being like, oh, yeah, I do a person centered approach. Like, okay, but like, what does that mean? And why does that matter to. So when you could bring your own story into the picture to develop your framework, then it's like, oh, I know what I'm doing. Every single one of my clients that we've gotten to this part, they're like, oh, my God, like, I actually know what I'm doing.

Right?

I'm like, yes, because yes, you finished school at whatever time, but let's not discount the experience of how you transformed. Like that counts too.

Yeah.

And they're like, wow. Like, so I listen to their story, I give journal prompts, and then I'll be like, why don't you look up this, this, this, this, this or this theory? I think these really align with your story and that's how we build it.

Yeah, I love that. First off, looking at your, your own story. And you're so right too, that we don't talk about this after school because we just go into clinical modalities because that's what matters. Especially if you're billing insurance. Right. And diagnosis. So that's really the two things that are talked about. My mind is curious now about. Okay, once they figure out their theory, what are some of these? And I'm sure this is a loaded question all across the board, but what are some of these alternative, holistic, out of the box? Are people using sound healing? Are they using tarot? Are they using, you know, reiki and energy healing? Are they. What are some examples that you see?

Well, yes, to everything you listed. I also, you know, past life regressions.

Yeah.

You know, using more intuition downloads. I know for me, like, those four Claires of like, clairvoyancy, Clair cognizant, like, all that, like, human design. I definitely bring in crystal healing, oracle cards, tarot cards, all of those things, you know, brain spotting, you know, for me, like, even pieces of the lifeline technique. I'll bring that in. You know, and the key is really, like, it can be anything as long as you know how to align it with that clinical theory and. Or you can match it with an empirically supported treatment modality as a way of, like, we're creating cohesion to support something that has been studied it's not like you're doing like a 60 minute reiki session and the next day you're doing, you know, a therapy session. But it's like, let's just say like halfway through your session you're really noticing some stuck energy in someone's heart chakra, right? You can sit, hold space, shift, shift that model, what it's like to be able to be present, to do that, right. See how that feels, process through that, boom, come back for your next session. So it's supporting unconscious processing, but now going into more of a somatic area for it, you know, or the energy end goal's the same. It's just now we're getting a little like magical with the interventions, right? It's not just, well, let's just reframe that, right?

Sky's the limit and what you can do.

Absolutely.

What about your informed consent? You mentioned that you said it's super duper, super duper long. How, how did you, did you work with attorneys for this? And what do you recommend? I know you post on your social media about like, do not just go copy and paste and buy or download an informed consent. If you're practicing in this way, like, you really need to have your grounds covered. And I preach the same thing about, you know, like your coaching contract as you know, like you're still held to your ethics and it needs to be attorney approved. Can you speak about the informed consent?

Yeah, absolutely. So like the beginning part of the informed consent is pretty similar to probably most, right. In the service agreement. Like you have to put information in there about like what the processes and you know, times and fees and all of that stuff. HIPAA compliance, all of that. The real like meat and potatoes of mine is the additional appendix that I put. So in the appendix, the first thing I start off with is focusing on my integrative clinical practice framework. So I put in all the theories and like a really easy understood approach to how I do work, right. So you can read it and go like, oh, like that makes sense. Then from there I give an, an indicator of like what complementary and alternative interventions are. I understand also that some of the spiritual practices, you know, it's been ways of life for people. So to say complementary and alternative can really come off disrespectful because, you know, for indigenous people, like, this is just the way things were, right. But I also have to like honor that we live in a third dimensional world where like you need language to talk about stuff, right? So complementary and alternative is the main umbrella that a Lot of these interventions are put under. So that's going to be like, you know, whole medical systems to energy work, to mind body interventions. Like they all fall under these five categories of complimentary and alternative medicine. So I discuss like what that is. Then I give a snapshot for every single innovative practice that I use a little paragraph of like, what it is. And I align that practice with every single theory that's in my integrative clinical practice framework. So I have a sentence supporting the integration of that technique or intervention and how it aligns and supports this concept from this clinical theory. Then I indicate risks. Like any, you know, most of these don't have big risks, but you still have to indicate like, you know, if you're engaging in something that's not evidence based, you know, not empirically supported, all of those things. If you're engaging in that and you're focusing on that, you could be risking like not engaging in, you know, empirically supported interventions that have been studied. Like, things like that. Or like, maybe there'll be somatic, you know, energy shifts in the body, what that feels like to be aware of, you know, don't get so dependent on Oracle cards for an answer, you know, risks like that. But like you have to list all of those risks. And I also have links for additional research studies that have been done in regards to how that practice has supported mental wellbeing. So I put that in there because there's a difference between evidence based practice and empirically supported treatment. I'll get to that in a second. But like, that's all the pieces that I put in that bottom part.

Okay.

So at the end of the day, if any board was to come after me and be like, you're not moving within your scope of, oh, and all of my trainings that I've had. So even though, like I've used Oracle cards as a personal practice, I still went and took a training on Oracle cards.

And does somebody have to or if you just have taken these certifications or trainings, it's better to list them. But if you, if you haven't taken formal training, I would suggest you do it. Okay.

Would be my recommendation because it's just going to give you more. Like if we're looking at clinical expertise. Right. Like, you need to show that you did your due diligence to get more education on the topic.

Yeah.

So I would suggest do it anyway. Like it's, you know, cross the T's, dot the eyes, like show that you went above and beyond to make sure that you are Showing up the best and for your clients. And that this work is like, you know, there's competency behind the work.

Makes sense.

Showing your due diligence is everything. You can't just be like, oh, I'm just gonna ask for forgiveness later. That doesn't build competency. Like, when you have language. When I look at my informed consent, I was like, yo, Like, I remember when I was done with it, I was like, this feels so good. Because in my head I was like, come at me, right? Like, please try, right? And come at me. Like, I give much information and I've done so much work to like, talk about the accelerated healing that can come from this. That, like, I'm not forcing this on clients. I'm just saying this is my belief on how transformation happens, and this is what I bring. I'm not shoving oracle cards down people's throats or saying every single session we have to do it, because that's not how it works for me. Yeah, but I, you know, these are my fundamental beliefs on how you can transform quicker.

Do you help your clients with their informed consent, with theirs?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That's part of your process.

I call it the clinical fusion blueprint, where we, like, we go through, like, the difference between, like, what an evidence based practice is, what an empirically supported treatment modality is, how to align it with clinical theory, how to identify those risks. We put all that language together and then basically you get a framework of my informed consent. We just make it personal to them.

Yeah. With their theories, et cetera. Can we talk about the difference? Because I feel. Do you have, like, an easy definition between these two? Because I feel like, evidence based and empirically. Like, this is confusing.

Yes, absolutely. It is confusing. Because, I mean, again, like, they teach it once in school and then it's never really. We don't talk about this stuff after school's over. I'm like, unless you're in the academic program or teacher or professor or something, like, you're just not speaking about it. So evidence based practice is a practice. It's an approach.

Right.

So evidence based practice has three pillars. So it's one. You want to look for the best research available. Now, research does not have to be, you know, systematic reviews and randomized control studies. It could be an expert paper. It could be a qualitative, you know, finding. Like, it doesn't have to be this. Like, you know, we had a control group in this group and, like, we were only assessing for anxiety. It doesn't have to be that. It can be Anything could be a case study. So that's important to look at to see like how these interventions have impacted mental well being or a certain diagnosis or whatever or like what the benefits were from implementing something that's one piece. Second piece is clinical expertise and knowledge. Okay. And then the third piece is a client's preferences and values. You're supposed to include all three of those things to really be engaging in evidence based practice. But when we hear evidence based, we just think of the first piece. Yeah, evidence we forget about those last.

Two, talk more about the client's preference and values. What do you mean by that?

Yeah. So if clients actually come and saying, hey, I really, I'm really into Oracle cards and I would really love to learn how to do that. Do you know anything about that? Like, you know, let's just say. Or like, hey, you know, heard about these moon circles and I want to know more about the phases and astrology and like all of those things. Like I, you know, I'd like to engage in prayer, whatever it is. If they're, if they have an interest in integrating these types of practices, we are supposed to do our best to incorporate that in a way that's going to be beneficial for them or to refer out again if it's something that's really outside of our scope. But that matters and we don't. How many people are really asking? Because when I asked in my research, you know, like, how many people are actually including asking this question, like, are you using complementary and alternative, you know, practices for your own self care? Not many social workers are asking that question. And if you don't bring it up, you think clients who have been probably disrespected by the conventional health system are going to be like, yeah, I kind of interested in this. And oh, you know, I feel like I get these intuitive downloads. People are going to think you're crazy. And the reason I'm saying they, they have that fear is because I have gotten it from other therapists asking as a therapist.

Yeah.

When I have brought this up, I've been like literally attacked on social media. So if professional to professional, I'm getting this. What happens client. Because there's a power dynamic there. Right, right. What happens when a client wants to bring it up? You think they're going to feel comfortable.

This is why it's important for the clinician to understand that they can do this and they have this mindset of like I am doing everything to protect myself, so come at me where they can unapologetically talk about everything. That they offer to make it easier for clients to seek them out and to.

Absolutely. Because clients are dying to find therapists that are integrating these approaches. Like, the research is out that they want more therapists that can integrate these types of practices. And I think that's beautiful. The problem is, like, there's no guidelines still. Right. Believe me, I've been emailing the board for the last two years. Like, I know there's no guidelines this. And it sucks, because really what I'm seeing is that there's a public need.

Right.

There's a public need, and it's not being served because the system is failing the clinicians in order to do this. And that's not fair.

And a lot of the people that are incorporating this don't have a clinical background. And you know that that goes two ways. You know it. You and I have both been to healers who have transformed our lives, who have no clinical background, and they were wonderful. Right. But there's a lot of people who have been to people who probably shouldn't have been doing what they were doing. Right. So I. I do firmly believe that clinicians can make. They don't always make, but they can make the best alternative healers. And it's like, the only people who are unapologetically speaking about it are the people who don't have a clinical background.

Yep. Because they're allowed to. Right. Like, they. What's the regulation on that?

They don't have one.

They've gotten their coaches. Yeah. You know, we do. So that's why, you know, people have heard me say, like, oh, there's no guidelines for this. There's nothing in the scopes of practice that say, we can or can't do this. So some people will take that as like, oh, well, then I can just do whatever I want. And I'm just like, but do you understand how it helps? Do you have words like, do you have verbiage around what it does? And most of them don't.

Right.

And to me, you're going to create more of a hurdle for others, the rest of us, when you don't do your due diligence. Because then people are going to attack us. Right. Like, you know, we have to work harder than the average textbook therapist. We have to.

Yeah.

And honestly, what I teach, I think every therapist should have, like, true understanding of clinical framework, true understanding of their ideal client, really personalize their informed consent to meet their needs of what they do and how they work with clients. But I think the therapy field is, like, really exhausted because everyone's going through the ringer with, like, everyone's just tired. And by the time you get to private practice, you're like, you know, whatever. Then there's a whole other slew of things to learn. But, like, the competency is so important. And I. People go, like, where do I start with this? I'm like, if you're not practicing this stuff, don't bring it in session.

Right.

Like, don't, don't even touch it. Like. Cause if you don't have a personal experience with what this is, I, I always tell my clients, like, I'm never going to bring anything in here that I haven't tried. Nothing. That's my promise. Because I want to know what it is. I want to know what can come up. Not saying that my experience is going to be like, everyone's experience, but going through it is going to make me more of an expert to bring it into clinical space than not.

Yeah.

And too many people are teaching what they cannot model.

Yeah. Even with traditional textbook therapists.

Yeah.

Right. That's where we'll see it more often, I feel like. Right. Because it's easier to do so. Because we learn it in school. School. And then we teach it and implement it when maybe not practicing it ourselves. Right. But when you get into the more. Yeah. When you get into the more alternative, it's like, it's sketchier. It feels less uncomfortable to bring it into session if you haven't experienced it yourself. And this is where people really need to make sure across the board, whether you're doing CBT or whether you're doing something like Energy Healing or Oracle, etc, that you are practicing what you preach. Yes.

Can't teach which model. Like. And I just don't think a lot of therapists really get that these days. Because I see the wounds all over social media. I see them everywhere. It's bad for me. Just like, damn. Like, the aggression, the anger, the like. And this is like a. I don't know, systemically I get it. Like, but, you know, I was in the same system. You were in the same system. And that there comes a point of accountability and choice. What are you going to do? You're going to be victim to it, Be upset about it? Oh, woe is me. And again, if you do that, like, how do you model growth and expansion and achievement and hope for your clients? If you just like, all right, whatever. It is what it is. It's really scary to step outside the box.

Yeah. But it's what we need. I think it goes back to this black and white thinking. Right. And. And you're seeing the wounds all over social media, and it's usually when we're kind of being attacked. Like, you know, I get it all the time, too, about coaching. Well, therapists can't add coaching. You shouldn't do that. That's a disgrace. That's a downgrade. This and that. And it's like the same thing with alternative healing. You can't do that. You're not allowed to do that. It's like this black and white, she said, he said type thing where everybody's wounds are just fueling off of each other. And we're getting so far away from the purpose of getting into this field in the first place and how the field even started.

Yeah. And let me tell you, like, before I got into building a course, and, I mean, I'm still on the struggle bus at times, all the new stuff I have to learn for real, like, email nurture sequences is going to end my life. I'm just. But seriously, like, it's so hard to learn this new stuff. It really, really is. And I have to really give credit to, like, even all of the people in the Therapist to coach accelerator program because it's such great networking. That's kind of happened there. Like, I've met so many people and like, now we're, like, building off of each other. And, like, how can I support you? You know, it's wonderful. But I got to say, like, what I see is a bunch of therapists with an expertise that are willing to get so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable and are willing to put themselves out there so be vulnerable. I don't even know what half of them actually, like, teach or do or whatever, but I. I get to witness the process of all that transformation. And I respect that.

Yeah.

So significantly. Like, anyone who, you know, people could say all they want, like, oh, coaches selling their programs. Do you know what it takes to put a program together? And you probably don't if you haven't done it. It is so difficult. You think doing therapy is hard? Oh, man. Dabbling in a world you've never touched your whole life and then succeeding through it. That's a badass healer. Like, that's what I'll say. So people, like, they can judge all they want, but it is such a process and, like, to share panics and pain and still move through, like, that's so inspiring.

Yeah.

So, like, you know, people could say what they want, but they don't know all the efforting that's put on the back end yeah. Of this.

And you have. And you know it deeply, and you're still going through it now, and you're, you know, killing the game. And I think it's just. It's because it's so mission driven. Right? It's like you are willing to be vulnerable. You are willing to put yourself out there in a way that you never have before, because your mission is so much bigger than any excuse. Right. Like, it's just you're pushing through the noise and you are learning the things, and you are getting comfortable with being uncomfortable because nothing can stop you. Because your why, like, your why was so big to help all of these clinicians fuse these two worlds together of both spiritual alternative and, as you call it, textbook therapist. Right. Like, how can we make this come together? That you were willing to figure out all of these floating pieces of launching a program just so you could impact more lives and truly shift the dynamic of the mental health field.

Yeah. And also, you know, the thing is, it's our job. I, you know, as I was reading my fifth, like, code of ethics, I don't know what state. I don't know where the hell it was, but I remember it saying, no, it was the NASW code of ethics. It said social workers are supposed to respectfully criticize the field.

Ah, wow.

I love that we are supposed to criticize the field, but that doesn't mean criticize and do nothing. That means criticize and come up with a solution versus just sitting there and be like, this is just how it is.

Like, macro.

When I saw that, I was like, yeah, yeah. I was like, okay, say less. I'll criticize. Like, I do love the field. I don't. I don't hate the field. I just hate the application and the. And the pattern and, like, you know, the. The generational kind of trauma that's just been in our field. It sucks. And they're still teaching the same brainwashing nonsense like, oh, don't align yourself. Listen, I know who I work best with because I let my story be my why on how I help people in my private practice. Same for my business, Right? Like, my story matters. I mean, you talk about this too, right? Like, your branding and your marketing. Like, you know, your story matters. And we've just been so. We've been told so much that. That that's not the case. It is the case. Like, what do you think the whole story doesn't matter to, like, where you are right now. It's everything. And if you allow it to be a piece of your journey Then you get to kind of rewrite the whole narrative of your life.

It makes you a better clinician.

How powerful? 100%.

Yeah. Well, I think we live in a really cool day and time where, you know, we look at how the, the field and the boards are not really changing, but we as clinicians are more able to have a community of like minded clinicians than ever. There's podcasts like this that exist, right? There's community Facebook groups and there's forums and there's get together and networking events and there's programs that exist to walk you through this, leaders who have gone first. And so we have accessible knowledge. As we wrap up here, what advice would you give to, to any clinician who is thinking or they've been told like, no, they can't do this. Whatever it is that their heart and soul wants to do, what would you say to them?

What would I say to them? Well, what I do is I talk to you because you're like my yes person. But I would say that the information that you're getting is flawed. And I bet if you, it's actually an assumption, it's not a truth. So if you actually did the research and I've already done a majority of it for you, I can already tell you that what you're being told is wrong. And just the people that you're getting that information from, they haven't done their research either, even if it is from the board. Like, so when the board says something like, oh, you can't have a coaching business and they can't actually tell you that. So the fact that they are telling you that, that's crazy. You know, they, they can't give parameters on business establishments that you choose to do like things like that. Like, and most of the people out here, honestly, like they're just in it for a job and they don't know a lot of stuff. So do your due diligence research. Check it out if you have a question about it, especially with innovative practices or uncommitted, ask me, I've probably already done. I can already give you the answer.

Yeah, you're an open book.

Yeah, like please. I've, I've emailed boards for people that people have been scared to email boards, no problem. Like, because people also have that fear, right? Like if I, if I email the boards, like they're gonna somehow have this tracking system where they're going to like highlight me and then come after my license. No one works that hard at the party. No way. Like these are not go getters like, no offense, but, like, they're probably so overworked that, like, no one cares.

Yeah, you're lucky if they even respond to your email to be quite honest.

Let alone open it. Yeah.

So where can. Where can people find you?

So they can find me on my Facebook group, which is Black Sheep Therapists Embracing Unconventional Practices and Mental Health. My group grew really big. It's really awesome. We do really cool trainings right now. I have this area where people can vote. I have this, like, little, like, jar where everyone gives me an empirically supported treatment modality and, like, a woo woo one. And I just do a training on how to merge the two. I don't care what it is. I'll figure it out. Um, so you can join that group. Um, My website is theblacksheepguide.com and my Instagram is at. Is it the underscore?

Yeah, it's the underscore. And I'll put this in the show notes, guys. The underscore Blacksheep Underscore Therapist.

There you go. And that's where you can find me.

Well, thank you so much, Tina. This was wonderful. I would love to have you back again sometimes, because I feel like we could just probably shoot the shit and talk for hours and hours, and we have so many different topics that we can talk about about not only alternative healing. Like I said, Tina and I go way back and we have so many stories to tell about the field and just life in general moving through this thing we call life. So thank you, Tina, and until next time.

All right, bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Thriving Therapy podcast. I hope that this episode has inspired you to reduce burnout, work smarter, and see the freedom potential you have as a therapist. We would love to have you inside the Therapist to Coach Accelerator Facebook group, where we have live trainings and cheat sheets on all things marketing, sales, and adding coaching, ethically and legally. I am here cheering you on and I'll see you around.