Andrew McCardle - Founder at External Pictures

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have Andrew McArdle with us today. He's a filmmaker, producer in New York, previously doing videos at Google, and now since about 10 years, founder at External Pictures, now a dad. Andrew, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself.

Thank you, Charles. I'm really happy to be here. Absolutely. Uh, yeah, sort of as we, you know, as we went into, uh, been in, in New York now for almost 20 years. External Pictures was founded 10 years ago, and, uh, we sort of merged the tech world and the film world, you know, both of which, uh, I've— I love so dearly. And, uh, we try to sort of update our processes as we're making films, and then at the same time work deeply hand in hand with tech companies to make content for them and to bring their visions to life.

So how does your client roster look, or your activities? At least the cash cow is like the tech clients, I guess, and that fuels your other project like the horror movie. Like, tell me a bit more about like the, the global activities of the business.

Yes, as we take on, uh, the tech, uh, tech projects as they go, and then, uh, that sort of allows us revenue streams So far, it's allowed us revenue streams to make the kinds of films we want to make, which is something completely independent with, you know, no strings attached. But now, after 10 years, I think we're ready to move into working with equity, working with investors, and putting ourselves out there for, you know, a bit higher on the budget scale, which then gets us higher reach and puts us out there further. But for 10 years, and all through COVID and every different kind of bump in the road that's gone on these last 10 years, just globally, it's really sustained us and it's really allowed us to continue growth as well as staying, I think, at the forefront of the process. I think that just to stay in the film world, they're not evolving as quickly, obviously, as tech. And so with a lot of the tech giants that we work with, we're able to kind of keep our finger on the pulse of new and better ways of doing business.

And what film have you done so far? Which one have you— have been like your greatest hits?

So the first film, uh, was called It's Always Been You, and that was something that, you know, we really, uh, you know, filmed it over the course of, of, uh, of an entire year. And it kind of— it took this— it was this big undertaking, uh, and then we were in post-production for over a year on it as well because we wanted to give it this kind of very fine-grained detail and, uh, A lot of the sound design, and we really wanted to make it into a full audiovisual experience, more of like an installation experience. And I think that's a lot of what we lean into is this idea of almost an ambient kind of film, a film where you could sort of wander in and out of it, something that isn't so highly narrative-driven, but it allows for— I've had folks tell me that they just put it on to listen to it because it's a great— It's a great soundtrack. almost soundtrack for your life or something like that. But they sort of, uh, you want to live inside this kind of film. And now we're trying to, uh, do that on a grander scale, obviously. But I think It's Always Been You is what I'm most proud of. Um, we released it now 5 years ago, and so it's been a lot of evolving towards the next goal from here on out.

And tell me about, like, the production of that. What was the budget? How How fast was it filmed? Uh, where can people watch it, for example?

So right now we are repped by Devil Works, who is a horror brand, but they're taking on non-horror films because this film merges all genres. It's on Tubi currently. Uh, you can find it on Apple, you can find it on any, any place where you can— Amazon Marketplace, uh, where you can be purchased on there as well. But Tubi is a great way to watch it just for just for free, and it's on there. And I think that, I mean, the production of it, we were very low budget. We just used revenue coming off of our corporate clients and then used that revenue to funnel into the film itself. And just sort of pulled on everybody that I've worked with over the years and different actors and different crew, and we found a way to film it. But it was really over the course of an entire year. That we were filming it all over the city, mostly in Brooklyn, because we really wanted to capture the essence of the place. We wanted the city to be a character, and so Brooklyn and the vibe of Brooklyn and all the different kinds of people around Brooklyn kind of brought it together for us.

What's been your inspiration for, for that movie specifically, or any producers or filmmakers that inspired you along your career?

I think, yeah, I always look back to kind of the, the masterworks of film for sure. And so I think that, uh, everything coming out of, uh, these, these New Wave kind of films from the '60s and '70s and everything happening in France with Godard and Resnais, everything happening in Italy with Fellini and Antonioni, it's kind of, uh, no, no mystery why we want to now film in Europe. Uh, we want to film in France, we want to film in Italy and, and find a way to kind of merge with the sensibilities of their film industries, because I think that's what I found most inspiring over, over the years. And I think that it's, uh, to do something— it's a bit esoteric, and it's a bit— you're trying to find a kind of a visual language, a way that the mind works in images, and translate that to the screen in a way that, that crosses cultures also. So as far as working globally, I've also found the limitations of language And I think that a visual language, something that can appeal to all cultures around the world, that everybody speaks this kind of— we're all on video all the time now. We're all interacting with video constantly via the web. So it's like a new kind of communication method with visuals is what we're leaning into and trying to craft that.

Interesting. And how did you promote that one?

That we promoted with festivals. So we went the festival circuit. We went the sort of traditional festival route, allowed it to win awards along the way. And then after that, we just used our normal social channels, everything else. Now that informed, of course, what I want to do with marketing, uh, coming up is I want to be able to film exclusive content while we film the actual movie and put that out as shorts or as some kind of short-form content along the way to build audience incubation. I think that's been the most successes that we've seen in, in the film industry, especially in independent film this year, last year. Has been things that used YouTube, they used TikTok, they used Instagram to build their audience years before they ever hit the screen. And so you've already got a relationship, you already have engagement and familiarity with the world and the characters and your style all along the way. So I think that the earlier we can start to build almost not as a short-form series, but as short-form content that is around the world of the film, I think that's the best way to let the audience come into the conversation far sooner than they normally would, which they would normally start, you know, when they click play or buy a ticket. But now we want to have a years-long relationship with them before we ever go to market.

Right. And you're raising $4 million for an horror movie. Like, would that be the first time you raised that much for a movie, or—

Yes, for sure. Yeah. So we've been dealing in the 6 figures previously. as far as movie budgets go, and now we're jumping into the millions. And so this is something that I think merits it. I think this film in particular is going to need a lot of production design, a lot of kind of, you know, we have these elements of like luxury train, the whole first act of it takes place aboard a train, and then we end up in sort of these castles on the sea. And Italy has a wealth of these locations, but, you know, to really take it up a notch. Because previously what we were doing was sort of trying to film contemporary Actual life. So we're trying to film just on the streets as they appear, trying to film, you know, in various locations. It doesn't matter if it's a diner in Brooklyn or if it's a record shop or something where we're trying to show the neighborhood as it is. But this is something where we really have to craft it from start to finish, and I think we're going to use everything from digital matte paintings to real locations and sort of merge them all together to create something that's a bit more visually stimulating, I think.

Interesting. And why horror movies? Like, will that be your first type of horror movie? Would it be your first time producing one?

Absolutely, yeah. So I think that like when it comes to the previous films, they've all either been kind of dramas, a bit surreal, maybe a bit comedic. It kind of merges comedy and drama, but this is the first time jumping into true horror, and I think that It's something that is— it's such an of-the-moment genre. You kind of, you feel it in the air. I think that there's been so many successes in films recently. I know we've had Backrooms, we've had Obsession, we've had all these films this year that have come out and just sort of, you know, taken the theater by storm. And so to see that there's an audience appetite for it, I think we always want to design for our customer. And so when we see that, okay, there's a real demand for this right now in the market, let's go for it. Let's, let's throw, you know, let's throw what we have to throw into the ring and, uh, see what we can do with it. And I think it's exciting because, um, you know, as a, as a viewer, I love those kind of films anyway. So it kind of— it's a perfect, uh, combination.

And, uh, historically, uh, are horror movies, uh, one of the highest or the, the most profitable type of movie that can be done, right? Like Typically they don't necessarily take that much budget, plus humans love to be scared like every now and then for some weird reason, right? So how do these do economically, right? Keep going to the movie theater and there's always like a nun type of horror movie or some devil possession type of horror movie. These seem to always be like recurrent themes, right? They always seem to do good for some reason.

Definitely. I think it's the kind of thing where it's the only genre where you can consistently rely on the fact that it's going to be atmosphere-driven, it's going to be vibe-driven. So it's all about the vibes, and it's all about how well you can capture that feeling. People go to a horror movie for a feeling, uh, and they want to, to re-experience something that they have experienced in the past, I'm sure, which is just kind of the unknown. And they want to understand the unknown, and they want to dip their toes into it and get into something that is maybe beyond the norm for life. The mysteries of life are what is unknown, and that's what seems to sort of inspire, you know, anything about devil possession and this sort of a thing. It's something beyond what we know anything about, and it's something that people feel in the back of their mind. They feel this kind of perhaps anxiety about something, or they feel something going on that they just can't put their finger on. And there's very few genres that I think consistently deal with those topics. And I think that especially in our world today where people have this sort of lingering anxieties about many things, I think it speaks to people in a deeper way. And it's, you know, you don't need a lot of money to do it. You don't necessarily need to have a star. You don't necessarily— it helps, but it doesn't necessarily need to have anything except the vibes. So as long as you are creating that atmosphere and creating that feeling, that's really, I think, why it has such good margins. Because at the end of the day, you can sell many tickets not spending a lot.

There's lots of competition in that niche, right? So how will you make sure that your movie has something special?

I think we're leaning on the visuals to be something and building that audience relationship because there is a lot of competition in it. But I think that, uh, a lot of our influences and a lot of our things that we're referencing are much, uh, much older. There's a genre of Italian film called giallo, and giallo was all about kind of merging this almost luxury 1960s world of art and fashion and culture with a terrifying element. Uh, these are the films that, like Suspiria and like, uh, Mario Bava and these kind of things where they were really the first to merge high fashion and luxury with a terrifying aspect of it. And they usually would involve, yes, gothic castles and this kind of, you know, old school, really old school horror elements as well. But I think that they were a very slick visual way of bringing horror to life. It still scared you, but it still had this very, very high-quality, enduring visual aspect to it. And so I think that that's something also that, you know, everyone is very enamored with. VistaVision all over again today, 70mm, the texture, the really, really quality texture of something, uh, when it comes to films. And I think that if we can merge those 2 worlds again, just as Giallo did, this also factors into why we want to work with Italy, because the craftsmanship is there. I think we want high level of craftsmanship, uh, also within that genre constraint.

How do you get these ideas of the, the themes of the movie right? Like, uh, do you have like notepad you take all your ideas in there? Also, how do you interact with AI nowadays to make these movies of yours?

So yeah, I definitely merge old school and, and new school in that respect. So for sure, uh, When it comes to the initial process, you are with a notebook walking around either New York or for much of it, I'll go to Italy and spend a couple of weeks just walking and thinking, and you're trying to get in touch with these cultures, and you're trying to— you wanna be where you wanna set your story. So I think that if you wanna set your story in New York, great, go walk in the streets of Brooklyn and just go sit in a diner for a while. And sort of allow it to come to you in that way. So yes, me with a notebook for many weeks is how it all starts. And of course, it's with me every step of the way, everywhere I go. And any idea you have to jot down and you start to see connections. So it's all about, you know, when you're working in business and when you're working in a company, it's all about connecting people. And when you're trying to conceive of ideas, it's all about connecting concepts within your mind. So the more concepts and And dots you have written down, the more you can connect all those dots and sort of see the bigger picture and how all these things come together. Then when it comes to AI, for sure, any collaborators or anybody that you're going to work with is going to want to see your visual concept, not necessarily hear you describe it. So with AI, we can storyboard, we can make the costume layouts of the characters, we can completely construct the world of the film. Completely construct even, you know, frames of what it might look like and concept drawings and all these things that bring it to life in a way that is, again, low cost, but at the same time really gets you maximum control over what you want to see on screen. And AI is— I don't remember how I worked before it, right? It's so indispensable that even within a few years' time, It's taken over as this perfect way of pre-visualizing everything you're going to do.

Does that mean that you also save costs? Like a movie that used to cost $10 million to build can now be built in $1 million? Have you seen some of that?

I think this allows for— it's something that's always been important to me with the company, is that it's creator-led. So it's a creator-founded endeavor, and so this allows for the creator, before they start to work with their collaborators, they can get all of their ideas down in a very, very enhanced way. Otherwise, you'd have to sort of work with all of your collaborators earlier in the process to start to develop these concepts. And there's something to be said for that too, and I think that that's great. But when you're trying to work at a low cost, then yes, absolutely, getting your ideas as clear as possible before you start to work with whoever you're hiring or your coworkers or your collaborators, before you start to work with them, having as much fully realized as possible is going to save you a lot of costs. So yes, I think it's, perhaps we're doing $4 million today, and by working in Italy also, you find better production cost margins as well. But yeah, this probably would have cost and should have cost about $10 million. about $10 million or more. But this helps us to also go to market without any creative constraints. We're not so concerned with making back really high margins where we have to start to alter the storyline. I think Obsession has become very famous for that. They saw such better returns because they were uncompromising when it came to their story, and they didn't want to change it to make it more appealing. And it turned out that by not doing that, they were appealing to even a wider audience than they might have initially thought.

I see you also listen to a bunch of movies. How do you decide which one to listen to? And through what lens do you view these movies? And do you view it through a filmmaker's lens? You just chill and listen and let your intuition dissect the movie afterwards? What's your process then?

I think it's hard to ever take the— really take the glasses off when it comes to, like, once you're in it, it's hard to ever see it from outside the filmmaker lens. So I think that, yeah, I really view them as something for analysis. They're almost like textbooks. They're almost like something you're really getting in touch with them in the same way that anyone gets in touch with a kind of a meditational practice, right? It's rejuvenating. It's renewing. It's inspirational. It's something that really is regenerative in so many ways. I especially feel like when you're talking about a film, it's sort of a dark movie theater, right? You're there with a lot of other people and you can kind of disappear into that world for a little bit, but it helps you get back in touch with center. I think it's the same reason anybody does a meditational practice and this sort of thing is you sort of find source during that process. And when you find source, you can create from source. And so I think that to find it is first the key, and however you're able to get there is great. And then once you're there, then you can proceed forward in ways that keep all of your ideas true to not only who you are, but maybe to your initial concept, so you don't start to get lost in the woods of— there's almost infinite possibilities with anything you're going to be But to start back at one is always the best way.

You also listen to a lot of old movies. You still find value in these old movies?

I think even more so because I feel that they're a little bit disconnected from— maybe they just needed to do less in terms of appealing to a wider audience, but they're able to be very specific. And yeah, when you look back at something that's much older, the craftsmanship was always paramount. And so I think that if you're looking for really great examples of amazing dialogue or in scripts or just the writing being really on point with the storyline and the ways that they were able to do craftsmanship around— again, I think there's no mystery why these practices of VistaVision and this kind of thing, which are inventions from the 1950s which went away for 50 years, suddenly have this resurgence. And you have many films being shot that way now, just in the last couple of years. And these practices are coming back because they're really high-quality craftsmanship, and they're really something that— there was nothing else that you could do with the film except to make it really high quality, you had no other options. Now you have a lot of ways that you can streamline it. You have a lot of different things you can do. The effects look more real, that kind of a thing. But, uh, when they couldn't lean on that in the past, they had to lean on making a great film score so that the music was incredible. They had to lean on the dialogue. They had to lean on all these things that now we can kind of move past those. But I think that they're the best to learn from because they didn't have anything Yeah, I love that.

Um, yeah, less, uh, less technology. So what, did they have to be like more creative on the script or, or the scenes? Were they more in the moment, uh, versus like filmmakers nowadays?

I think so, yeah. I think that there's, there's so much more that you can do now, you're almost spoiled for choice. Uh, I think that if you can do anything and make anything look real, you're gonna do it. and create anything you want, then your mind is allowed to go there. But they had a lot of limitations, and creative limitations can sometimes yield the best results. And so what limited them also forced them into creating what they had at a very high quality level without being able to go outside of that. But yes, I find that they really, Really tell this very undiluted and pure narrative, and they really get to the heart of, or the core of, who each of their characters are and who the audience is, and in a very different way, I think, than we do now. But I think that the best thing is to leave behind anything that we can't learn from, from those earlier time periods, but never throw away those those core pieces that are useful for us in the present also.

Andrew, thanks for being on today. Where can people find out more about you?

So there's andrewmccardle.com where there's a wealth of video essays and all sorts of essays about films, and anything new that's coming up is going to be posted on there. There's externalpictures.com, and of course you can always find me on LinkedIn, anywhere you want to find me on social. We can chat. Definitely look out for the Vine coming up, or itsalwaysbeenyoufilm.com is where you can find the original movie, and Tubi as well. So anywhere you want to reach out, feel free.

Is Andrew and Charles for another film?