April White - Founder at Trust Relations

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have April White with us. She's the founder of Trust Relations. She's a 5X Award-winning PR agency founder, TEDx speaker, business writer, and 2X Award-winning podcast host. So April, welcome to Pond. Tell us a bit more about yourself and what you've been up to.

Thank you. Yeah, so I started Trust Relations about 6 and a half years ago after having worked for a lot of the big legacy PR firms in New York City and decided I wanted to do things a little bit different. And also I had a real passion for sort of wanting to rebrand the industry, which is really an over-the-top idealistic goal. But I had, I felt like we were at a place in time where we needed to make sure that it wasn't brands preaching to their consumers from on high, but we more of a 2-way dialogue, especially with the evolution of social media. And people can obviously call you on your stuff pretty quickly now because they have access to more information than they did in the past. So now it really needs to be that, you know, 2-way street of trust with the consumer where you're having a conversation and then responding to them. Because companies really— I mean, obviously they have to make a profit to stay in business, but they're supposed to exist to serve the customer and not treat them like, you know, they're just sort of a pawn in a—

Marketable assets.

Exactly, exactly. So that's really what I did. And then, um, at the time, we, you know, it wasn't— the world hadn't turned, uh, you know, sort of, um, remote at the— because it was pre-COVID. And I decided to do things where I would just have people nationwide working remotely and just pick the best talent for every client. So that was a differentiator at the beginning, but now, you know, the world's changed. But definitely people-first approach and very much prioritizing value and transparency for clients.

Yeah. I saw this guy acquire Forbes, I think in 2021. I think he had a major exit and he got Forbes for what, $300 million or something? That figure was pretty low back then. You think about like a brand like Forbes, right?

Yeah.

But then I was like, shit, Forbes might not be the best investment, right? Like, yeah, smart people, I think they start to realize. I deal with like one percent type of founders, CEOs, and investors, and we look at Forbes and all these PR articles with skeptical eyes right now that we've seen on the other side of it, and. It's like, oh, this person is buying something or has pulled strings so that they would have this badge that doesn't really mean much anymore while they could have spent time building and getting more clients and doing something better.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not saying it's like that all the time, but I, that's my feeling nowadays and I feel it's only going down from there. Plus I'm like, If the CEO can go on podcasts, like for example, Sam Altman, I think is a good example of that. He's always on podcasts, right? He speaks his truth and at the same time he's making a nice PR image for himself. Like what are good examples of PR? By the way, this is a contrarian one. I do know that people don't think very highly of Sam Altman, right? But do you have like good PR examples of people that both speak their truth, stay truthful to themselves, and contribute to their downline PR at the same time?

It's difficult because I think people who are very authentic and do that well do tend to make enemies because they're not playing both sides of the field, right? But at the same time, they do then have that brand trust with their target consumer. So the trick is really making sure that you know who your target consumer is and that you're consistent in the messaging. I think that we saw, you know, not, not so long ago when there was a lot of— there's still a lot of companies that sort of do, you know, they don't do a lot for the LGBTQ community throughout the year, and then all of a sudden it's Pride Day and there's flags everywhere. And it's like, okay, well, what did you do throughout the year? And it doesn't read as authentic because it sort of feels like, are you committed to that, to that community and that like customer base, or are you just using that as an ex— you know what I mean? So it's like people really see through that now, and I think you have to be careful to not just Okay, now we're making a big issue out of, you know, BLM, even though we have no history as a company of supporting that community or actually doing anything meaningful. So it's, it's like, it's a very delicate— all of this is very delicate, right? Which is why it's PR. Um, but I think that, um, you know, even, even people like Elon Musk is often hated by a lot of people, but he's beloved by a lot of people, and that's because he's consistent. And so I think there's like, there's a two-edged sword there. Either I think you, you remain super corporate and kind of vanilla and like we serve everybody and you don't dive into issues, or if it's truer to your nature to just be that person, you know, and you're always that consistent brand that always supports the same things, then people just know, okay, well, they trust you even if they don't like you, but they trust you to be consistent. And so there's, I think the brand congruency, it's like, it is a two-edged sword, right? Because you can't. You you you have if you're going to weigh in on an issue and have something interesting to say, you're inevitably going to offend somebody. Yeah, which is a difficult line to walk.

Sort of be a cycle, right? Like another good example is Trump, right? It's like yeah, he's always out there. Even if he says lots of dumb things, Elon, I think he's back on the rider track. I think he massively fucked up with his political stance. But yeah, like you said, at least he's. sticking to his truth, right? And—

Right. And he doesn't— right. And it doesn't read like he's saying things to get you to like him either, which, which is different than the Trump approach, right? Which at least there is consistency with Trump. You know, he's going to say, you know, he's going to end every tweet with like stupid things, like every, every time on target. I didn't, I didn't say that, but he will, but he will, he will end every, every, you know, post with like like, thank you for the attention to this matter, right? It's— there's a nice consistency to it, so you know what to expect. And then that's, that's nice.

Yeah.

But I also, but I also think that you need to make sure that if your views evolve, that you also don't stay stuck, you know, because people learn and grow. And I think that that's inspiring, right? Every hero story has character arc of change, so it's okay to change also, but then you need to make sure that what you're doing is actually supporting that, right? So if you have a new focus on sustainability or whatever it is, you have a new issue that you want to focus on, then it's just important. It doesn't matter that you don't have a history of that if you, if you slowly build toward it, right? You just start introducing an operations capacity or an investment capacity in that issue And then you can talk about it. But I think a lot of people make the mistake of sort of like, we're going to say that we support sustainability and we have, you know, very little to show for it in our operations or in, you know, in what we're doing on business.

Yeah, I think it's like, the reception's all percentages, right? I think people, I mean, hmm, how do you say that? They don't care about truthfulness, but when someone is caught lying, right?

Yeah.

Or at least the evidence is very high that they lied, which obviously doesn't apply to Trump because I think he lies all the time, or even worse, he's not aware of it. But it's like when it's a corporate CEO and the facts are there that he potentially is not telling the truth, I think that pisses humans off like in a very bad way. And it's hard to recuperate from that. And if you picture a CEO, right, that's been hired, a hired gun, not the founder of that company, someone that's in between like 10 chairs, right?

Yeah.

And is trying to make everyone happy, but doesn't make anyone happy in the end, right?

Yes.

I think that's when the problem happens, right? Like someone—

That's right.

Forced to say something that they didn't came up with this idea and they're like, oh, they're the public face of the company. That doesn't work. That doesn't tend to work for sure. Agreed. Founder. He, he has options, right? So it's like, even if people are mad at him, most of his companies are still gonna perform. At the end of the day, people are not gonna mass sell their Teslas, right? Like, people try that, especially in Canada. Um, but like, and Tesla has a moat, right? Like the Autopilot thing, right? So people are— the, the technicality is there, even if the the social aspect is not like the technical chupas are there.

Yeah.

Chupas are there. So, okay, as a PR person, right? Like who's your ICP? Do you work with founders? Do you work with CEOs? What are the packages, right? Like if I'm hiring you for my PR and what does working together look like and how's it different from classic way?

Yeah, it's a great question. So we work with a lot of startups. In addition to, we tend, in terms of the retainer amounts, tends to be, you know, slightly better established startups, not the sort of, you know, seed money or, you know, first round. But we do for those companies now offer a one-time package to just get you off the ground because we know it's probably unrealistic to have an, you know, a monthly retainer with us. Um, and so what we do is we'll, we'll just get you off the ground. We'll get you the media list. We'll get you, you know, all of the messaging, um, some samples of some content marketing that you can do, like in terms of thought leadership, byline articles, et cetera. And also give you a suggestion on what that thought leadership should look like so that you aren't beholden to us. If you want us to activate it later or immediately, we can. Um, but we do offer that. as well because I just know it's actually really fun working with startups that are finding their way and finding their brand and, you know, cutting their teeth. And it can be hard to swing elbows in this economy. So I actually enjoy doing that and just giving them sort of like, here's the playbook, right? Let's get you going. But traditionally we do work like a traditional PR agency, although we come at a lot more competitive price point, which we're partly able to achieve because of that. We don't have the overhead of a, you know, giant office space in New York City that Half of the client's budget is going to without them knowing it, that kind of thing, right? So that's one of the things that we do that's pretty different.

And startup, the best startup founders, the ones that master PR, is there a PR person behind them or is it something they mastered by their own? For example, have you studied Roy Chung Lee, the founder of Clueless?

No.

That's a good case study for you. This kid's, Is it's fucking batshit crazy? I would say he's like he's like out there all the time, and he's very Elon style. Says his truth, ruffles a lot of feathers. Clearly was like their main slogan was like cheat with AI, right? Like and they they were pretty much all over the place, but they got the views, right? Like yeah, they got the views. They bought a panel in Times Square, and it was like hey, I paid hundred grand for that. to be on there, go visit my site, Cluely, whatever. And I'm still talking about them right now. So arguably kid has mastered something. Is that a good way to go? Because nowadays people that don't like you, they can just unsubscribe from your stuff, right? And you don't ever hear ever again. And then the algorithm tries to put you more in front of people that like you.

Yeah.

And people that you enrage still tell your stuff out loud, right? So is it still true that any good, any PR is good PR?

I don't actually think so. But partly it's a matter of—

So why did Trump win the election then?

Well, I mean, so that's not a, I mean, you're not wrong. As a contrarian example, Elon actually doesn't have a PR team and doesn't believe in PR. He just does his own thing. He doesn't need to. He has more followers than I think the New York Times has, you know, has subscribers, right? Like, he doesn't, he doesn't need the traditional media.

Arguably, it's the greatest thing he built, by the way. It's like, yeah, his brand is so fucking strong.

Like, it's so, it's so specific. It's so strong. And it's so, and it's so cohesive, right? But that's I think also the thing to keep in mind is that, okay, so 2, so 2 things. My brain went in 2 directions at the same time, so I'm gonna try to pin one at—

I'm gonna help you with that.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna pin one and go for the other one. Um, so one thing to keep in mind is that I think when you're bird— when you're building a personal brand, if you're doing that, it's very important that you as a human— this is gonna sound a little bit on the like woo-woo side, but You, the more consistent you are as a human being, and to your point from before, not to disparage anybody, but aware of how you come across, because a lot of people are not. They think that they present as one way, but if other people were to be pulled behind their back, they would probably not agree with the self-image that the person has. So the more that somebody is introspective and, and really, you know, like challenges themselves in that way. And the more that you be— try to become what you want to be, right? That's the— that's sort of the most important thing, because then everything you do will actually stem from the fact that you as a human are consistent and coherent. But if you as a human, you think you're one way, but you're actually doing something that's, you know, completely the opposite, which happens a lot, then you're not actually going to present as Trustworthy. So it's, it's actually— if this personal brand building is actually— it's almost like you have to really be hard on yours— not hard on yourself because that doesn't actually go anywhere, but, but be really, um, self-aware.

Open for feedback.

Yeah, open for feedback, self-aware, and willing to change and willing to tweak and be like, okay, yeah, I see that I do that. I don't like that about myself. Let me take steps towards it. I know it's going to take time because this is obviously like a built-in psychological hangup or whatever it is, right? So, but the other thing that I've noticed that, that's also important for startup founders is that whatever sort of psychological hangups you have, you will actually attract. And again, this sounds woo-woo, but it's actually, it's true. You actually attract more of the same energy into your company. So if you're scattered—

Psychology, it's, uh, science. That's how we bring it.

It is, it is actually, it is actually science. It is. Um, but you— so it's just very, it's very, very important, especially if you're a younger human who hasn't had a life, a lot of life experience to sort of examine yourself and had the hard knocks of people who are slightly older, right? It's— you are going— you're— the bigger your company gets and the more unresolved issues you have, the more you'll have to deal with them in your company. So it's very, very important. Like, the more capital you attract, You are going to, unless you counter that.

Accelerate.

Yeah, exactly. You will exactly 100%, whatever it is that is negative about you will actually be accelerated by your, by the investment. So just, it's not, it's not like don't do it and be scared, but it's also just make note of it and also take active steps to counter it by maybe hiring somebody that's very different from you. Right. So if, if you know that you tend to be a certain way, Maybe you're not friendly or maybe you're not organized or whatever it is, then you need to hire that person to backfill whatever your weakness is and let them help balance the chaos that you might otherwise create if left to your own devices. So that is a really important thing to remember.

Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing these insights. How do I come across? Like, what's the Charles Cormier brand? Not sure if you've looked into my stuff. Like, give me a PR 101 assessment and no need to put the white gloves.

Um, that, I mean, that's, you're putting me on the spot without having done the research and thought it through. But I would say in general—

Talking to me right now, because that's also my brand, I feel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So talking to you right now, I would say you present as very authentic, no BS, like straight to the point. Um, you seem very aware of other people and sort of what their perception would be. So I don't think you would have the problem that some people have of not, like, maybe not understanding how they're reading other people.

I would be aware, but it's not a strength, right? Sort of on the spectrum, like, and like, yeah, yeah, probably a bunch of the founders you work with.

Yeah. Um, yeah, you've— I, I have noticed that you definitely have like an anti-Trump thing that comes out often, which is Which is, which is not uncommon, um, and is not necessarily problematic, but it is just good to note that if, you know, that if you— if, if that's not part of your brand, like, you could, you could rein that in a teeny tiny bit because it's like, it, it is what it is, right? You know, but it's also like, you have every right to say that, and if that's a touch point that your most people are relating to, then You know, away you go, right?

Like, I'm scientific, right? So anything that goes against science is a personal attack on me and my beliefs and my identity.

Got you, got you.

I think he's, uh, he's smart on the media side of things, but that's probably the only thing, right? And I mean, I'm an investor as well. I invest in top people, people that do good as well, right? And Yeah, and Elon was my favorite entrepreneur for some time. He fucked up the political side of things. He lost so many points in my world and in other smart people world that have respect for helping the world, I guess, and just building stuff for humanity. But now he's sort of back on track, right? But I mean, I never make this central. I talk about Trump. I talk to lots of humans, right? Like 20 founders a day, and I talk about Trump A lot. Once every 2 or 3 or 4 weeks, which is not enough to be on the anti-Trump side of things.

I must have brought that out in you. That's funny.

It's just we talk about PR and who are the GOATs in PR. Trump is one.

That's what it is. Yeah.

And then Elon is like—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. One thing I just— I told you I had the 2-track thing in my head. So the other thing I just want to point out, if people are not familiar with PR, haven't done it, is that usually it falls under a different category in marketing than paid advertising. So if you look at the marketing umbrella, and I don't mean to speak down to any listeners who already know this, but you have paid advertising where, you know, you're paying for it. You have owned channels where you're, you know, it's your own social media, your website, blog, blah, blah, blah. And then you have earned. which is where PR falls. And one thing to just keep in mind, and this equation has gotten a little bit confusing with the credibility of the media being a bit down and sort of in question.

Undercut.

Yeah, but it's important to remember that that is actually where a lot of people tend to put the most trust in your brand because the other things you either are saying the thing you want about yourself on your social channels and your blog, Or you're paying for it. But earned is really— and that's— I really have a passion for— I mean, I wish I had a magic wand to fix the credibility of the media because I think it is actually really incredibly important, not just for corporations and capitalism in general, but it's also really important for information verification and validity. And so it's a real crisis of both capitalism and, and, and, you know, sort of political, um, access to objective information in the United States. And so that's become a real problem on both sides of the aisle, right? Like, this is not a— it has become politicized, but it's, it's actually a much bigger issue because we need, we need that to have information that we feel has been verified with cynicism and like a demand for, you know, proof and like— and it's inefficacy, right? So this is, this is actually a pretty big issue. Um, so in the meantime, a lot of PR has switched into doing more thought leadership, which kind of falls more into the owned space, except you're still in a lot of cases submitting those articles for publication. and being a contributing art, you know, writer for different publications, etc. So the speaking opportunities, awards are still kind of paid for, but it's still sort of credibility building. So it's just important for people to kind of keep in mind that that leg of the 3-legged stool, even though it is under duress right now, um, yeah, globally, honestly, is still incredibly important. Like, it's, it's really— you can't, you can't leave it. Is It's frustrating 'cause the ROI isn't as immediate and as obvious as the other parts, but it's incredibly important for a brand.

Yes, but I'm talking more from, I don't know, ethical perspective when billionaires buy journals and shit. And when everything is so biased nowadays, I'm not necessarily against this system, but I think journalistic, Ethicalness is falling down, right?

It is.

Like getting paid as a journalist is hard, but I'm more of a believer in individual nodes, like journalists being tired of all the bullshit and be like, yeah, I'm starting my Substack, right? And they start getting paid every month. They start a YouTube channel, for example. I'm very bullish on that. And then I'm bullish on founders being interviewed, I don't know, on the Dwarkesh Patel podcast, right? And being like, oh, Dwarkesh is a very strong node that is an authority right there. It's not a company, right?

Yeah.

And any founders in that ecosystem becoming podcasters, right? And that would create like a beautiful ecosystem in my opinion. And it's an authentic conversation. It's not like a super polished piece. Not that I'm against polish because ultimately it's like simplifying complex information, making it digestible for people, but going for truthfulness, right? I think is the more trendier stuff. Plus I believe that AEO rewards a lot these podcast conversations. They're scraped off YouTube, right? Have you explored that aspect as someone that owns their own podcast?

Yes. So I agree with that 100% and we do. Actually, as a company, I've leaned very hard into more, you know, very niche B2B companies because those trade publications don't have the same sort of sticky residue that's coming with some of the other mainstream things, right? But I agree with you, podcasts have become really, really important and they're a great opportunity because you have a long-form conversation. You can't— it's not going to be a soundbite that you're yelling over somebody to get your message across and it sounds like Is this person real or did they just yell their talking point at someone else? Right. So that's kind of what broadcast has become. And then print seems to kind of—

The B2C side, like, do you mean, because I rarely see people talking over each other in B2B context?

Correct. So yeah, so B2B is still—

A little more, right? Like—

Yeah, it's like very, like, you're not gonna go to a logistics or like an ophthalmology trade publication and have to worry about there being this, this problem. So it's, it's, it's still very much intact, right? Like, but podcasts are great for it. Um, those trade publications are solid. Like, those, they're not losing their reputation. They're, you know, they're active. They exist for a reason. They're needed for a reason. They're providing information that people can't get otherwise. Like, those are, those are solid. Um, and then I think doing thought leadership as as a leader, if you have something interesting to say and are comfortable, is great. But I do not recommend doing a bunch of just spammy thought leadership where you don't have a unique voice or a unique point of view. Or if you're saying what everyone else is saying, it's like, just don't waste your time. Don't, you know what I mean? Like, don't, just don't, just don't, don't put the effort in if that's not some, if you don't have something super unique or interesting to say as a thought leader, just. It's a bad use of time and energy.

Yeah. Being spicy, but not too much, right? Like being contrarian, which means to say something that is true, but that not a lot of people believe, I guess the mental model for that. But yeah, I love talking to you, April. Where can people find out more about you?

So you can find my website at trustrelations.agency. And I'm also on LinkedIn under Trust Relations, April Nicole White. You can find me there. So would love to speak with anybody and even just, I'm, I'm great at, um, just having a quick conversation to see if PR makes sense where you are in your life cycle as a company. So I'm happy to just, I'm always happy to have an intro chat and just see if it's a good use of your funds. And I'm blunt enough, I'll tell you if I think you're not ready or if I think it's, you're not gonna be happy with the amount of money you have to spend for the ROI that you'd get. So love to speak with you if you want to.

Love it. That was April and Charles for another Founder