From Dying on Mt Fuji, to Asylum, to Wall Street

Welcome to another CEOism pod. We have Jacob Williams, special guest, interesting guy. You can find out more about him on chalkfullofnuts.com. He's an ex-quant, an author, some kind of artist for sure. And yeah, he's— he had his own quant firm for quite some time. He's an adventurer as well. He has some pretty wild story, and I would guess like a lover and disector of life. Jacob, welcome to the podcast. Tell me a bit more about yourself and what you're up to.

Yeah, Charles, thanks. It's interesting, as you go through life, you think you're normal, then you find out you're not normal. And in that, there are characteristics that I've noticed for entrepreneurs, which are creative, you're charismatic, you're visionary, You have a lot of self-esteem, you're energetic, you don't need much sleep, you're a risk-taker. Those things are necessary to, I think, be a successful entrepreneur, but they can also get you in trouble. That's been my history is I worked for the world's largest asset manager in the '70s. I looked at what they were doing, I said, this is screwed up. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I come out of grad school and found out that markets are pretty efficient. And if you did the same thing as everybody else, you're going to get the same results as everybody else. You're going to get the market return minus the cost of your research and everything else. So I just said, quantitative methods don't have optimism or pessimism like people. So couldn't you develop an algorithm that would take advantage of other people, whether they're too optimistic, then you can short that stock. If they're too pessimistic, you can buy it. And that was kind of a new idea back then. I mean, now people are generating billions of dollars, Citadel and some of these other guys, based on that. But back then you were considered weird and almost like an outcast. So it took a number of years for that transformation to really take hold. But I didn't care because it was fun. You were different. I thought the other guys were idiots. That's another, I think, characteristic of an entrepreneur is you think other people are dumb. So after a few years there, I started up my own firm when I was 35. And that's been going on for almost 40 years. And it's been successful. But in the meantime, as you said, I, for some reason, I started running marathons when I was early because I thought that was fun. And then I started running up mountains because I thought that was fun. And so much fun that I did a race up Mount Fuji. And what happened was towards the end, they're shutting down the mountain. They wouldn't let people go up. So I said, I'm going to go up to the top. I was with my son. And I left him there. My wife said, do not leave our son behind. So I'm going up Mount Fuji. I get to the top. There's no one there. I said, I got to get down in a hurry. So I start running down. I don't know if you've ever run down a mountain with scree, but you have to lean back. And for a second, I lost my concentration and went into a forward roll and kept going over and over and over and over. And I said, this isn't going to end well. So I ended up against a volcanic rock. I was totally paralyzed. And, you know, somehow I talked my way convincing myself that this was, you know, not really a big thing. And I got through the shock. But I think that's an example of, you know, I just thought it would be fun, you know, to run up Fuji and then come back down again. And then it morphed into, I'm not an artistic guy, but, but I had this vision of this huge stainless steel sphere, and I thought that would be cool to put in my backyard because you could see, you know, everything. And my lovely wife, as I call her, said, you've got to be kidding me, you know. So then in my mind, I shrunk it down, and so I ended up making the world's largest nickel-plated chrome steel ball bearing Newton's cradle. I call it Newton's Balls. And it took a long time and it was hard, but that was done. But in art, I got so consumed by it that I started working, sleeping 4 hours a night, then 2 hours a night, then no hours a night. And this is a problem with entrepreneurs too. And then you can get into psychosis. You don't know if you're dreaming or it's real or whatever. And that's how you can earn entrance into a psychiatric hospital. And that's kind of where I ended up. I thought it was a normal path until I realized it wasn't necessarily a normal path. And so that's what the book is about, is my 28 days inside a psychiatric hospital. And of course, given that I'm a contrarian and I think everyone's stupid, I thought it was Crazy what they were doing in there. I mean, it just made no sense. I mean, the one example was they wouldn't let me outside for a week, and I said, "You know, I've been self-medicating." It's like Michael Phelps worked out four to six hours a day, and and and when he stopped, he he became depressed. I said, "You know, you got to let me outside." And then I realized Charles Manson, death row in San Quentin, was allowed out for an hour a day. And I said, you know, why was it— I'm talking to the brass at this— but I said, why was it that Charles Manson was allowed out for an hour a day? They said, well, why? I said, because they found the suicide rates amongst prisoners who weren't let out was very high, and when they were allowed outside, it dropped dramatically. I said, you're spending all this time trying to prevent people from killing themselves and not giving them a reason to live. I said, for me, a reason to live is being outside. And so that was just one example of what I saw that I just thought should be reported. But it starts out with you're an entrepreneur, but those characteristics of being a successful entrepreneur can also end you up in summer camp, as I call it.

I love it. Why do you feel the need to share that story with the world?

Um, I think it's got to change. When I was in there, I saw 18 and 19-year-old kids. Well, first of all, they had men and women together, right, in this place. They don't have that in prisons. And one of the things for people who are manic is they're hypersexual. Can you imagine hypersexual men and women and they don't lock the doors? I mean, I was just Crazy. So, um, it's, it's— I found out they still give electroconvulsive shock treatment. I don't think the average person knows that. Uh, it was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest where, where they talked about shock treatment and lobotomies. They did away with lobotomies. I thought they did away with shock treatment. And they're calling that the gold standard. The gold standard, 120 volts across the prefrontal cortex. is the gold standard for treating people with severe drug-resistant depression. It's nuts. And as you may know, not that you've ever done this, the party drug ketamine is being shown to be really, really effective. And the side effect of that is, hey, party on. Whereas, you know, the ECT, as they call it, is you lose your— short-term memory sometimes, or long-term memory. You're nauseous. So that's why I wrote the book, along with the fact that when I was paralyzed on Mount Fuji, I kind of had a conversation with whoever it was that would listen. Again, I don't know if it was the good one or the bad one, but I said, if you help me survive this, I will try to do something that will move the needle on helping people. And hence the book.

I love that. Okay, well, let's start with that story. It's a pretty crazy one. I mean, I've done Pico de Orizaba myself right in Mexico. That's where I live. It's a pretty nice mountain. It's probably steeper and a bit harder than Fuji, but still, I know how dangerous these mountains are. I know how hard it is to get up there. When you were paralyzed, I mean, you couldn't move. Hypothermia might have set in. You really thought you would die. What was, uh, what was the story? What was going on through your mind when you were pretty much left out for dead here? Were you like, oh, my son's gonna call the emergency or something? Like, what happened?

I just thought— I was totally paralyzed, couldn't move. I had a phone with me, but I couldn't get to the phone. And I just said That, you know, I was talking. You know, I've never really talked to the other side. You know, it sounds crazy, but why not? You know, and and and so in the conversation, I said, "Give me a sign." You know, let me wiggle my little finger, and I was able to wiggle my little finger. And a couple minutes later, how about my whole hand? You know, I could move my hand. I said, "How about the arm?" I could move the arm, my right arm. And then I said, how about the left one, the pinky and, and, and the arm? And I was still paralyzed from the waist down. I wouldn't be able to walk, but at least I could get to the phone. So then after about an hour, I was able to stand up, but I had hit a volcanic rock on the way down. That's what stopped me. And, and I have these striations across my body that had been bleeding, but, but the volcanic ash had cauterized it. So I looked like this monster, you know, but, but. It was, I think entrepreneurs don't give up. And I think it was that, you know, I'm gonna survive this thing and I'm gonna get down. And I was a little bit frightened of lovely wife who I did leave my son, you know, and that was part of the motivation was, you know, I really didn't want her to be angry with me when I, you know, her last thought was anger as I was freezing to death on Mount Fuji. So, but it's kind of like a resilience type thing that when you get knocked down, you stand up. And that's also a motto is, you know, when they say, sit down, I stand up. You know, you just have to gut it out and have confidence in yourself. But that was a strange feeling. I mean, it's— I kind of thought I was going to die, but I didn't.

And how did that quote unquote ailment of yours? Because I was born a similar way for sure, definitely different than the other kids mentally. How did that serve you or harm you in your life like thus far? I mean, it allowed you to do amazing things on Mount Fuji. How successful were you in business? How hard was it for you to maintain relationships? Like, how did it help you and how did it? Armed you?

Well, that's a good— there's a divergence there. So it was very helpful in business because people want a visionary. They want someone who thinks differently. But it's extremely hard for the people around you. And that's what I didn't quite realize, that it's because I'm thinking, you know, I'm normal. You know, I'm not— you know, my lovely wife would give me a book about people who were different, right? That And I said, well, that's not me. I'm not different. I'm just pretty good. And, but that's the negative is it takes a toll on the people that you're around and you're not aware of that. Self-awareness became incredibly important to me. Once I was self-aware, it really changed my life.

When did that happen? Like in my case, I think that happened pretty early when I discovered meditation. Yeah, sure. I'm odd, definitely on spec, but I equipped myself with good tools around like 19 or 20, right, with self-development, and I was aware of myself quite early, and it only has gone higher. Yeah, ebbs and flows, right? Sometimes I'm like, yeah, dude, why do you think this is weird? Why do you think this does not work from a first principles basis? But People are like, yeah, humans think with their emotions first, not through first principles, right? So how, yeah, in your case, like, was it drastic that you were made self-aware of yourself, or was it a slow process?

Oh no, it was a sudden thing. It was a psychotic break, as I described it. You can't tell the real world from the dream world. And what happened with me is I thought, you know, I led my entire life And set up to lead the existential fight of good versus evil. I mean that that that's when I finally realized this is when I was sixty four years old.

Holy shit!

That's when I realized that's when I realized I said that's not a normal thought.

Okay, but how did that push self-awareness on you? Because because in my case it's just like. analyze myself from the third person, look at my action, right?

Yeah.

Like, I'm looking at myself from up there and I can just be like, oh, this is what action I took, this is what other people think, this is what other normal people do. I'm keenly aware that I'm very different from a normal 9-to-5 human being. Um, and yeah, like, how did the psychosis help you being more self-aware? I have a hard time understanding that part.

Well, it's when you run a marathon. I've run 13 marathons. The key to running a marathon is you take your mind out of your body probably around the 5 or 6 mile mark because you just don't want the feedback of what your body's going through. And you touch base every once in a while. And that's when I developed the thing, and you kind of described it, of of being able to observe yourself almost as an independent observer. And through life, I'd been successful, you know, it's— but, but it was finally when I realized that my thoughts, you know, I took myself out of my body and I started examining what was going on. I said, this, this is definitely not a normal behavior.

So Okay, how did— and you mentioned a couple of traits that I relate to as a founder. I think we're all like different for sure, right? Like you mentioned that you think that others are idiots. I certainly feel that way a lot of time, and when I think that way, I also need to probably step back and have more empathy, right? And breathe, you know, and slow down, right? Like I have some countermedicine. To when I feel that way, because it's not productive, right? Like, anytime you're smartest in the room, you're probably not in the right room for sure. And then just telling others that they're idiots is like not gonna work, right? But there's other traits that you mentioned, like not sleeping. Um, again, I think I found medicines and tools against that. Like, naturally, I'm like on the anxiety spectrum for sure. So But I learned quite early in my career that I needed to strengthen with other tools and other questions like taking care of my sleep, right? And prioritizing sleep and stop thinking about business before sleep. Um, did you have that awareness? Do you still not sleep right? Like, I don't know how people can function without sleeping.

Yeah, well, there are 2 things. I'm gonna go back and I self-medicated, uh, by exercise and long-distance running. Yeah. And in terms of— I also do that, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Well, okay, guess what? Peas in the pod here. But I don't know. It's a strange thing. For me, sleep— I was energetic. I'd have these ideas. I mean, it's hypomania. is the description of what I had. It's bipolar 2. People get things wrong and say if you're bipolar, you get depressed. I didn't get depressed. That wasn't my problem. And with hypomania, you got energy, you're thinking about stuff, you're so excited. I didn't want to sleep because sleep deprived me of doing stuff. In fact, I got to the point where I would think of something before I went to sleep. And when I woke up, I will have worked on the problem while I was sleeping.

I had that too, and I knew I had to stop it. I was like, at a certain point, like, you're like an addict that doesn't want to stop. And me, me, I spot the trend before I end up in an asylum or something.

Yeah, well, yeah, you would have ended up where I was. And, and yeah, for sure. But, but I thought it— I didn't view it as a negative characteristic. I viewed it as a positive characteristic. I didn't want it to end. And I go through 4 or 5 month cycles of this. And every morning I wake up thinking, I hope I still have the gift. And it is a gift in some respects.

You must have made a lot of money, basically. It's like, I'm looking at that and you must have made shitloads of money with that. But was Wall Street fulfilling for you? Like, what? Because It's fun to make money, right? But there's also like this toxic part to Wall Street. Do you think that sort of contributed to your downfall?

Well, now, so I'm a contrarian, so whatever other people are doing, I do the opposite. It's not exactly a game because it's a serious business investing people's money, but it was— I never got wrapped up in it. The company I joined was in the '70s, very big, and They had only hired people who were either members of wealthy families so that when they joined, the wealthy families would give them money, or children of CEOs of companies because you wanted to go after the company's pension fund. But my year, it was in 1976, they decided to actually hire people that were smart. And I didn't even know the name of this company. It's the biggest asset management firm in world. I didn't even know the name of it. I go in the interview, I said, oh, well, Citibank, I've heard of. Who the hell are you guys? And they hired me and a few others that same year. And it took a while to figure out that it was a social experiment really, that they wanted to find out what it would be like to hire people that didn't have connections immediately. And it worked out well for them. But yeah, so I was not the traditional hire or the typical person working in the investment management business back then. Now it's all freaks. It's people who can do differential equations while they're solving a 5x5 Rubik's Cube standing on their head.

And at what point did you get out of that business or started your own trading firm?

When I was 35. So, so that was, uh, 8 years later.

And all different thesis to each. Did any one of them go under? Were they all resounding success?

It's the same company that, that, you know, so it's, it's an episodic big success. You go through cycles, and really part of it is, is the belief that, that, that it's a cycle and not just a downward spiral. So yeah, no, it was— it's been a long adventure. You have to kind of reinvent yourself and, you know, it's not easy. I've got the data here. So it's 30% of entrepreneurs suffer from depression.

Only 30%? And is it like real clinical depression or is it episodic?

Major depression.

Okay. Because then I would guess that most entrepreneurs suffer from depression when they have cash crunches.

Yep.

And that's like 90% of entrepreneurs. So it's episodic.

But, but this one is, is interesting. The, the one characteristic neurodivergency that, that seems to be associated with, with success is dyslexic. characteristics.

Interesting. Are you dyslexic? I'm not, but I can see—

I'm not, but I said, why could that be? So when I researched it, it turns out if you have dyslexia, you got to be clever about figuring things out. Yes, it's conventional wisdom doesn't work for you because it's the opposite, right? And that characteristic, that really surprised me. That was at 35% of entrepreneurs, this dyslexia. And another one is ADHD. 30% have that, you know, and that's a plus and a minus. The plus is you're high energy. The minus is that you get distracted, right? So I don't know if you can relate.

I'm definitely more HD than I am AD, but— or I call it advanced HD vision because you can— I mean, once you hack it, right? Because I'm definitely ADHD, right? Like, I was diagnosed that when I was a kid. Um, when you take the surplus of energy, which is the positive part of it, and you remove the being distracted part, yeah, with like meditation and shit like that, like unfair advantage. I'm pretty sure your ADHD is well on your side.

Um, I, I've been told that. Um, but, but I, I was diagnosed as bipolar. Again, not the depressive side, but the manic side. And it turns out that, that, that's the one Where, where again, creative, charismatic, visionary, self-esteem, energetic, doesn't need much sleep, and you're a risk taker. So that's generally good, um, except if you, um, take the sleep down to zero. That would be my advice to people. You can pull one all-nighter, maybe 2 all-nighters, but not like, you know, 20 all-nighters.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, um, At what point did you stop trading, or did you stop, right? And to what was the pivot there?

Well, the company just keeps going, you know. You hire really good people, and, and, and so, you know what, I'm, I'm still somewhat involved in that. Um, and, uh, you know, so, so I guess I never stopped, right? It's, it's It's a continuing thing, and it's kind of like a second wife, I guess, right? I mean, it's there, and sometimes it gives you less trouble than the other wife, and, you know, there's some satisfaction from it. So I think it's a good symbiotic relationship, the company and me.

Okay. Well, now this is like your trades are done on autopilot. You took all the money that you made, but did you slow down? Is my question. Is like, at what point did you sort of slow down? Was that after the psychosis, or what, what happened?

That's a good question. It was— it's, it's been an evolutionary process. There's, there's a switch between being obsessed about work and then starting to get into the art world. So, so that happened about 10 or 12 years ago.

Okay, why art? Is it more therapeutic because you can't make lots of money with art?

I have no idea. I wasn't artistic. This was right before I had my psychotic break. My head started to fill up with images that weren't really there and the images were like Newton's Cradle Newton's balls thing, it got in my head and I said, I have to make this. So it— that was the process, was it wasn't that I was seeking art out, it was the art was seeking me out. Okay.

And okay, so that— I mean, did you have like a psychotherapist following you and advising you to do that, or some kind of coach? Like, um, why did you get into that that fast? And yeah, that led to the Newton Uh, sculpture of yours, just pretty fascinating. Why did you say that took you so much time to build? Also, isn't that like somewhat simple to build?

They're 80-pound nickel-plated chrome steel balls— chrome steel balls, no, ball bearings. No one in the world made those. So part of it was trying to find out. There's someone that's a company in Sweden and Germany and China, and, you know, 6 inches were about the biggest you could have, and ships use that. The double-hulled ships apparently use the 6-inch ones. And so finally, there's the, the German and Swedish company said, we just can't do this because if there's an imperfection in a ball bearing, when the 2 hit, they'll explode. That's the problem. They have to be perfect. So the guy in China, I call him Can Do, Because he did it. He made them. And, and then when we were importing them into the country, um, the guys in LA or San Diego were wondering what the hell are these. They thought that was military equipment, you know. So I had to send a little model of a, of a Newton's cradle so that they know what, what I was making. So, so the stainless steel frame had a whole lot of energy. I had to design the frame so that it could hold the energy of 2 80-pound chrome steel balls colliding together in one little spot, right? Imagine the energy at that one little spot. So it was an engineering feat, and I wasn't particularly good at engineering, but I had to teach myself. So that was the process of of— and so find someone to make the ball, someone— find someone to make the frame. And, you know, there's an art gallery that I became affiliated with where we were able to put my show on. I was trying to recreate a show from 1966. And, you know, so it all happened, but it was— again, it's kind of— it gets in your head, right? And you can't get it out until you You do it, and fortunately, that project worked out.

Was that more satisfying than winning a big trade when you finished that? Then you had it at the next position.

I mean, it's different. It's it's one made me money and one cost me money, right? So. I think it's all good. There are a lot of different things that can keep you engaged and make you happy if you're successful. I wouldn't have been happy if I couldn't have made my Newton's balls. That would've been somewhat devastating. So that's the risk-taking aspect of either starting a company or doing a project that no one's ever done before. is failure.

Your book, that's another piece of art, right? Took you a long time to make it happen. Is that like your maestra obra, your final piece? Like what, yeah, how hard was it and how long did it take you?

It took about 5 years of writing. I had writer's block in college. I never took a course. I had to do a term paper. You know, and then all of a sudden it started flowing. And, you know, I don't know, 4 or 5 years and then editing and then you got to get a publisher. And, and it was, it was a long process. But it's, it was something that I felt I had to do. You know, failure is not an option. I used to tell my kids that and they keep telling me failure is not an option. And, and, and so it was done and I'm You know, kind of sometimes if something's hard, it makes it fun as well, right? I mean, easy things are not interesting. Hard things are interesting.

Yeah. And easy things don't scale as well, right? Like addictions, like drugs and easy stuff. Anything that's easy, that like low effort provides maximum, um, dopamine or serotonin release, that usually is pretty toxic, right? To hold, to trap. You need like to have pretty high effort and equal rewards on the other side generally for stuff to scale in life. What does a day in your life look like nowadays?

Every once in a while I get up into a podcast with a guy wearing a fancy shirt. That's psychedelic, man. That's cool. So it's, you know, it's It's a good question. I do, I do some work at my company. I try to do some publicity for the book. And in some respects, I've had some interesting health issues that make you really realize that, that don't waste time. You know, it's, it's, don't worry about stuff in the past. You can't change what's happened in the past. You can live things currently and, and, and maybe think a little bit about the future, but, but not too much about the future because it's pretty unpredictable. I mean, you had mentioned it with meditation. I think you're there too, is, is you just have to center yourself and not take things for granted and not get so involved and consumed that, that, that you, you, you don't realize that you got to have some fun.

So you do, do you still like not sleep a lot, like wake up at like 5 or something?

No, no, nope, that's, that's, that's all done. In fact, I, I don't know if you can see, I've got 2 different watches to keep track of. Of course you do. Yeah, I got a Garmin and a Fitbit. And, you know, I, I realize, as you mentioned too, that, that you really have to, um, be careful about sleep. And, and so, uh, and, and, and I try, you know, 6 to 7 hours of sleep, and then you've got REM and you've got deep sleep and you got all the rest of that stuff. But, um, that is probably, uh, the single most important thing in terms of me just, just being kind of level.

Um, do you still run like long distances?

I try. Uh, I can't do long distances anymore, but, but I try to get out there. You know, you call dopamine— I'm a dopamine addict. It's, it's— and again, my self-medication was an So, so it's, um, yeah, no, I wish I could do more, but, uh, you can do low-impact stuff, right, that is high on cardio.

There's lots of good machines for that.

I know, I know, I know, I know.

But, you know, you want like torture and rewards after it, air bike's pretty good for that.

Yeah, I know. I've tried, I've tried some other stuff. I've been married for, for 45 years to the same How did you do that? How did I do that?

Yeah.

Well, because, you know, exercise, you know, you, you burn up all the energy. So I'm saying I'm married to running too. I— it just, it was so good for me. You know, I've tried biking, I've tried swimming, I've tried a lot of other things, but, but I love the fact that you can just separate yourself from the world. You can separate your mind from your body. It is just— it is such a wonderful place to be. I mean, to me If there's a heaven, that's what heaven feels like.

Yeah. What's next for you? Like, how old are you now? Like, what age are you? How much more years you want?

74.

Wow, that's crazy. You don't look the part.

No, thank you. But it's not that I don't look it. It's just my wife tells me I'm 13. Right, probably. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, sometimes I, I mean, I try to be like 8, you know, when it comes to chilling, just like seeing the wonders of the world like a child. But in other situations, uh, in better intellectual situations, I'm probably your age mentally, like with lots of wisdom. I think we're all like playing different roles and characters at different times and places in our lives, right?

I think, I think that's right. I think that's right. And it's unfortunately, you know, I got the song The Final Curtain by Frank Sinatra. You know, I don't know if you know that song. And it's like it speaks to me is that what is your legacy going to be?

My Way. It's a song, My Way. Of course I know My Way.

Yeah, My Way is good. Yeah. But so what's your legacy going to be? And in fact, I said, I started writing this, I said, my obituary. I said, well, why am I writing my own obituary? It's because I couldn't trust the other idiots to do it right. Yeah. You know, and, and, and I, I listed all the things I want to make sure that people don't forget, you know, to, to, to say. And then I said, you know, it's, it's, they're going to say whatever they want to say and it's going to be fun. I want people to laugh at my funeral. And to say, you know, that he may have been a pain in the ass, but boy, he made life more interesting.

How did your kids pan out?

How did they find out?

Pan out.

Oh, pan out. Really well. Oh, really well. No, yeah, it's that they're all One guy's a CTO with a very big company out in California at a very young age. Another one's doing exceptionally well. The other 2 are in investing or finance and they're doing great. Yeah, no, they're all wondering if they have the gift, as we call it, or not, because it's hereditary. Um, you know, roughly 30% of the kids, uh, children of someone who's bipolar, are bipolar. Um, so, so, so go into your own past. So how about, do you have mothers or fathers or aunts or uncles or grandparents that, that were, uh, neurodivergent?

Yeah. Um, because I, what I'm— I could see is that they have— because I, I think for most human beings, being bipolar is not a gift for sure. Like you had an environment and you panned out well, but a lot of them stay in the asylum, right? Um, or I don't know, it's in jail, right? Like they end up in jail. Um, for sure. Um, you— your wife sort of gave them that her side of the gene, which I think is good, right? Same with my kid. Like, uh, yep. I do think, although my wife is being a Like she's probably ADHD as well, but she certainly balances out, right? Like a lot of entrepreneurs say their wives are the rock, right? Like it's not the best way to talk about someone, but yeah, it's certainly some balance, right, to your highly testosterone energy. It's like some balancing, and guess that helped him out not to go that crazy and start a business and to Because there's— you said CTO, right? And probably the other is like CIO or something. But yeah, can't you like identify someone's very much like, uh, on, on spec if they start a company quite early and they're just not hireable?

Yeah, it's, um, so I make the assertion, I think it's in the book, that, that if it weren't for neurodivergent people, if it weren't for bipolar people, we'd still be in the Stone Age.

Oh, that's—

If you go back, it's da Vinci, it's Thomas Edison, Elon Musk. The people that move the world forward are people who are neurodivergent. But to your point, for every 100,000 neurodivergent people, there may be a handful that do the positive things, and all the rest of them, it's, it's, it's tough. But if you were to bring everyone back to baseline and medicate everybody, you wouldn't have the advances in society. This is the problem. What do you do? I would argue maybe the cost of having a lot of people that don't turn out well, if you can keep the ones that do well. Harvard is looking at people's brains to try to figure out people who are bipolar or hypomanic, which ones are more likely to turn out well versus those that aren't. It's called high-performing hypomanics. And you medicate the ones that maybe won't turn out well and don't medicate the ones that will. So it's a big issue. But, you know, you see the headlines. So people that do big things are people who are neurodivergent.

Right. Well, thanks for being on, Jacob. Fascinating story. Where can people find out more about you?

Well, I got, I think my website, yeah, www.chockfullofnuts.com is how you get to the, to the book. And, you know, I appreciate the opportunity here. It's, it's, you know, what's— is that an Oura ring that you have on your finger?

Yeah, no, I have everything. The Oura, Garmin, the Whoop.

Yeah, yeah. Well, welcome to the club.

Yeah, thanks Jacob and Charles for another